Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Council Bans Morris Dancing

Related threads:
How old is Brit trad of music in pubs? (88)
PEL: Mummers stopped Cerne Abbas (101)
PEL: demo - pictures (14)
BS: Is Kim Howells an arsehole? (65)
Licensing Bill - How will it work ? (331)
Weymouth Folk Festival (UK) (120)
A little more news on Licensing (158)
Killed by the PEL system Part 2 (93)
The New Star Session R.I.P. PELs (55)
PEL Problems in Hull (39)
PELs: Are we over-reacting? (74)
Circus PELs - I told you so! (16)
PEL Mk II: UK Government at it again (24)
PEL stops session in Cheshire (78)
Lyr Add: PEL Song: A PEL Protest (Julie Berrill) (27)
PELs - Letters to important folk. (50)
Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs (506) (closed)
PEL: Architect)?) Andrew Cunningam (11)
Licensing Bill moves on -OUR FUTURE (286) (closed)
UK Government to license Morris Dancing (68) (closed)
EFDSS on the Licensing Bill - PELs. (38)
PEL: Doc Roew gets through to Minister !!! (11)
PELs Dr Howells on Mike Harding Show. (106)
From Eliza Carthy & Mike Harding PELs (36)
Common's Early Day Motion 331 (new)(PEL) (69)
DANCING OUTBREAK! and definition. PELs (16)
PEL threads. links to all of them. (50)
BS: Village Greens and licences (3) (closed)
PEL's: News Blackout! (53)
PEL: Billy Bragg BBC1 Monday nite (17)
PELs: Exemptions? (107)
Petition Clarification (PELs) (9)
PEL debate on BBC TV Now. (6)
further 'dangers' with the PEL (24)
Stupid Music Law. (8)
Howells (now) asks for help PELs (68)
PEL : MPs' replies to your e-mails (40)
PEL: Where does Charles Kennedy stand? (10)
PEL: NCA Campaign free Seminar (18)
PEL: Howells on BBCR1 TONIGHT! (45)
PEL : Hardcopy Petition (44)
PELs Government v MU & lawyers (48)
PEL Pages (5)
Human Rights Committee AGREES! PELs (20)
Churches now exempt from PELs (55)
Lyr Add: PEL 'Freedom to sing' song (12)
Lyr Add: PEL Protest song (14)
Can YOU help The Blue Bell session? (9)
PEL: Urgent soundbites - CBC interview (25)
BS: Kim Howells, but NOT PELS for a change (8) (closed)
PEL: Billy Bragg on Question Time 6th Feb (15)
Kim Howells (PEL) (85)
PEL - A Reply From An MP. (22)
BS: What is PEL? (3) (closed)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 30th Jan 2003 (25)
PEL – Robb Johnson on R3, 1215h, 26/1. (8)
New PEL. An alternative argument. (31)
PEL: DEMO 27 JANUARY 2003 (95)
PEL: VERY URGENT - CONTACT yr MP TODAY (46)
Poet against PEL - welcome Simon (10)
PEL: First Lord's defeat of the bill (10)
PEL - 'Demo' Fleetwood 23rd Jan (5)
kim howells does it again (PEL) (69)
PEL UK - Unemployed Artist Dancer - look (22)
PEL hit squads! (16)
PELs for beginners (26)
PEL: Latest rumour/lie? It's gone away? (3)
PEL: but not music (9)
Folking Lawyers (PEL) (26)
MU campaign - Freedom of Expression (36)
PEL- Enforcement: How? (8)
PEL: Inner working of Minister's minds? (9)
PROTEST DEMO WITH GAG (PEL) (10)
PEL: What activities to be criminalised? (29)
A Criminal Conviction for Christmas? (PEL) (45)
PEL - Idea (34)
Glastonbury Festival Refused PEL (5)
MSG: x Pete Mclelland Hobgoblin Music (23)
Sessions under threat in UK? (101)
PELs of the past (13)
BS: PELs and roller skates. (1) (closed)
PELs UK Music needs your HELP (64)
Fighting the PEL (43)
URGENT MESSAGE FOR THE SHAMBLES (22)
Lyr Add: The Folk Musician's Lament (a PEL protest (2)
BS: Queen's speech, and licensing reforms (32) (closed)
PELs UK BBC Breakfast TV Monday (1)
PEL: Licensing Reform? (46)
BS: PELs in Scotland (12) (closed)
BS: The Cannon Newport Pagnell UK - no PEL! (18) (closed)
Action For Music. PELs (28)
Killed by the PEL system (66)
TV sport vs live music in pubs. HELP (6)
PEL and the Law: 'Twas ever thus (14)
EFDSS letter to UK Government HELP! (2)
24 July 2002 Day of Action - PELs (77)
Help: PELs & The Folk Image (12)
Official 'No tradition' 2 (PELs) (55)
Is this man killing folk music? (19)
We have PEL - Rose & Crown Ashwell, 23/6 (2)
BS: Vaults Bar, Bull ,Stony Stratford - PEL (4) (closed)
What is folk ? - OFFICIAL (26)
Official: No tradition of music in pubs (92)
UK catters be useful TODAY (70)
Help Change Music In My Country (102)
PEL-More questions (7)
NEWS for visitors wanting to play in UK (56)
Nominate for a Two in a Bar Award -UK (11)
USA- HELP Where is Dr Howells? (13)
BS: URGENT UK contact your MP TONITE (18) (closed)
ATTENTION ALL UK FOLKIES URGENT HELP? (97)
Write an Email for Shambles? Part 2 (75)
UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles (24)
All UK folkies take note - the law!!! (68)
BS: Tenterden weekend (and PELs) (11) (closed)
PEL (UK) (25)
Will you write an Email for Shambles? (111) (closed)
Important - Attention All Mudcatters (99)
Council Bans Morris Part 2 (73)
Day of action for live music 19th July (44)
Traditional activities and the law (13)
Sessions under threat in UK PART 2 (15)
Making Music Is Illegal. (56)
Urgent Help Required!! Threat to UK Sessions (11)


The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM
Les from Hull 11 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM
SINSULL 11 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM
Clinton Hammond 11 Jul 01 - 01:30 PM
GeorgeH 11 Jul 01 - 01:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 01:32 PM
GeorgeH 11 Jul 01 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Les/Manchesterex Gorton 11 Jul 01 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Les/Manchester ex Gorton Morrismen 11 Jul 01 - 03:01 PM
bobby's girl 11 Jul 01 - 03:10 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 03:49 PM
MMario 11 Jul 01 - 03:56 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM
MMario 11 Jul 01 - 04:09 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 04:11 PM
M.Ted 11 Jul 01 - 04:24 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 04:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 05:28 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 05:49 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 05:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM
Hollowfox 11 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM
The Shambles 11 Jul 01 - 07:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 07:06 PM
Noreen 11 Jul 01 - 07:25 PM
Gareth 11 Jul 01 - 07:28 PM
M.Ted 11 Jul 01 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM
GUEST 11 Jul 01 - 07:46 PM
Noreen 11 Jul 01 - 07:53 PM
Geoff the Duck 12 Jul 01 - 04:28 AM
pavane 12 Jul 01 - 05:18 AM
IanC 12 Jul 01 - 05:33 AM
pavane 12 Jul 01 - 06:38 AM
The Shambles 12 Jul 01 - 06:50 AM
GUEST,JohnB 12 Jul 01 - 12:39 PM
mousethief 12 Jul 01 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Les/Manchester ex Gorton Morrismen 12 Jul 01 - 01:44 PM
Bert 12 Jul 01 - 02:37 PM
bobby's girl 12 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM
The Shambles 13 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM
Fiolar 13 Jul 01 - 06:40 AM
The Shambles 13 Jul 01 - 06:45 AM
The Shambles 13 Jul 01 - 08:36 AM
The Shambles 13 Jul 01 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Les/Manchester ex Gorton Morrismen 13 Jul 01 - 01:51 PM
The Shambles 13 Jul 01 - 04:52 PM
M.Ted 13 Jul 01 - 10:27 PM
The Shambles 14 Jul 01 - 04:32 AM
The Shambles 15 Jul 01 - 03:23 AM
The Shambles 16 Jul 01 - 10:09 AM
M.Ted 16 Jul 01 - 04:49 PM
The Shambles 17 Jul 01 - 12:25 PM
GUEST 25 Jul 01 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 25 Jul 01 - 06:40 PM
M.Ted 25 Jul 01 - 07:03 PM
Gareth 25 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jul 01 - 07:14 PM
The Shambles 26 Jul 01 - 02:26 AM
The Shambles 26 Jul 01 - 08:13 AM
clansfolk 26 Jul 01 - 09:17 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Jul 01 - 10:42 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jul 01 - 01:44 PM
The Shambles 27 Jul 01 - 06:37 AM
rea 27 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM
The Shambles 27 Jul 01 - 02:07 PM
The Shambles 28 Jul 01 - 07:36 AM
The Shambles 28 Jul 01 - 07:48 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 01 - 10:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 01 - 11:41 AM
Bonzo 28 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM
The Shambles 28 Jul 01 - 02:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 01 - 02:39 PM
The Shambles 28 Jul 01 - 06:47 PM
Gareth 28 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM
Noreen 28 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM
The Shambles 29 Jul 01 - 12:42 PM
running.hare 29 Jul 01 - 05:40 PM
Richard Bridge 29 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM
The Shambles 30 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM
The Shambles 01 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM
Stewart 01 Aug 01 - 07:05 PM
bobby's girl 01 Aug 01 - 07:38 PM
The Shambles 02 Aug 01 - 02:46 AM
GUEST,Captain Swing 02 Aug 01 - 10:28 AM
The Shambles 02 Aug 01 - 11:37 AM
vindelis 02 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM
The Shambles 03 Aug 01 - 09:40 AM
The Shambles 03 Aug 01 - 06:38 PM
The Shambles 03 Aug 01 - 07:05 PM
vindelis 03 Aug 01 - 07:22 PM
Noreen 03 Aug 01 - 08:01 PM
Frogge 03 Aug 01 - 11:23 PM
The Shambles 04 Aug 01 - 02:39 AM
Bonzo 04 Aug 01 - 01:47 PM
The Shambles 04 Aug 01 - 03:01 PM
The Shambles 04 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM
Noreen 04 Aug 01 - 06:33 PM
vindelis 04 Aug 01 - 06:51 PM
Richard Bridge 05 Aug 01 - 07:57 AM
The Shambles 05 Aug 01 - 11:36 AM
The Shambles 06 Aug 01 - 10:07 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM

Sorry for the slight overstatement of the title. Or for raising some peoples hopes....?

The following is a question from me and an answer from my Local Authority (Weymouth and Portland Borough Council) Licensing Officer.

A Morris side (comprising of more than two people) will produce a programme of dates where they will be performing during a summer season. When these include public houses, which may be visited more than once and they take place on land belonging to the public house, such as pub gardens or car parks, would these events require a Public Entertainment Licence?

Dear Mr Gall

MORRIS DANCING

Thank you for your letter dated 26th June 2001.

A performance of music and dancing taking place in the open and on private land i.e. land to which the public has access only with the permission of the owner, will be subject to SS3 and SS4 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 (Schedule 1), which requires a licence to be granted by the Local Authority.

An exemption is available if the musical entertainment is incidental to an event such as a garden fete.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Les from Hull
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM

If you write to the LA and ask their opinion, that's going to go to their Legal Section, and you're going to get some cagey legal eagle giving you chapter and verse. That doesn't mean that when the side start up in some pub car park there's going to be a SWAT squad waiting for them. Can you imagine the adverse publicity if a Local Authority used this legislation to stop a morris side dancing out?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM

So if I show up on your doorstep with a boombox and a Chubby Checker CD, and we start doing the Twist together, we can be fined for other than creating a nuisance? We need a license to do this? What about if we do this at a garden fete?
Who stays up at night dreaming up this nonsense?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:30 PM

'Can you imagine the adverse publicity if a Local Authority used this legislation to stop a morris side dancing out? '

HA! Can you imagine the praises that would be sung of said Local Authority!?!?!?!

LOL!!

*evil wink*


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:30 PM

Hey, Shambles, didn't you know we live in a free country.

Just so long as we have their permission to be free, of course . .

G.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:32 PM

An exemption is available if the musical entertainment is incidental to an event such as a garden fete.

I'd argue that a Morris side dancing outsidee a pub is very definitely incidental to the main activity that is going on there, which is drinking and socialising.

Can't see it standing up,in court - but then nor would any of this stuff limiting live sessions and so forth.

How it works is that when publicans are lent on by the authorities they, quite understandably, they tend to cave in. And in most cases they are tenants or managers, and don't even have the authority not to cave in, if the conmpany doesn't want to fight it out.

Any one planning to go to the music session action in London on 19th July?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GeorgeH
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:36 PM

Can't see the morris side standing up in court at the end of their dancing out, either - for much the same reason . .

G.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Les/Manchesterex Gorton
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:57 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Les/Manchester ex Gorton Morrismen
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 03:01 PM

Sorry I pressed the wrong key, so to speak. Damn good idea I say. The sooner its driven underground the better. It might regain some credibility and excitement. See the History of Gorton Morris, drinking and fighting in North Manchester in the late 19C I believe


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: bobby's girl
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 03:10 PM

I do hope Shambles is wrong about getting us banned, because Royal Manor Morris will be dancing outside his local pub on Saturday night to celebrate our 20th birthday. We will have several other sides with us and will be collecting for charity, so it should be a good night if any local mudcatters fancy a night at the Cove. Hopefully a birthday party might loosely come under the heading of a fete!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 03:49 PM

First of it isn't me getting anyone is banned, it is our local authority having banned participatory sessions without PELs, that is classing Morris as a public entertainment and requiring a PEL.

The situation at The Cove is even more complicated.

The Cove now has a Public Entertainment Licence, so you might believe that Morris there would be covered by this? Not so.

Morris and any other outside entertainment, under conditions placed on this PEL, can only take place once in August as part of the regular yearly fund raising charity event. All other outside entertainment is not permitted at any other time. As follows.

6. The Licensees are permitted to hold one outdoor charity event each year, which must cease no later than 6.00pm.

Morris and any other entertainment can take place (as busking) on land close to the Cove, but not on private land belonging to the Cove.

Of course it is then subject to public complaint, as is all busking.

Wishing a very Happy 20th Birthday to Royal Manor Morris.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 03:56 PM

so - perhaps it can take place as spontaneous interaction?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM

The councils word for "spontaneous interaction" (which sounds filthy anyway) is impromtu. One off such events are allowed.

Of course if you think about this, such things are not a problem, as twenty or so musicians and dancers just coming together by chance (that sounds pretty filthy too), is unlikey and if they choose to do it again, it is then not impromtu and subject to the PEL.

The problem being, if you read my question, is the production of a programme of where the side will be dancing through the year.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:09 PM

that's simple too. simply do your programme as where you shall NOT be.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:11 PM

Day of Action for Live Music 19th July

Hopefully Royal Manor Morris and their friends will have recovered from their birthday celebrations and will be able to attend and dance at our local version at the Cove on Thursday 19th July?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:24 PM

You've got to write back to them and ask for the exemption, based on McGrath's idea. Actually, to satisfy the requirements, you can specify that the performances are incidental to an event at the pubs etc. The event may be happy hour, or even special "Morris Nite", which consists of nothing more than your performances. If one were inclined, one could argue also that, since the event does not involve admission or any sort of fee or restriction of attendence, (that is to say, attendence does not require any permission of the owner of said property) then the statute does not apply.

Best to present the arguement first, and, if the powers that be agree, get a letter from them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM

I have been trying every possible argument since December 2000. Involved my MP, councillors, The Home Office and 'Uncle Tom Cobbley and all'.

The officer's opinion that such events are Public Entertainment has been endorsed by a meeting of the Social and Community Committee(05/06/01.

They are quite firmly of the idea that the statue does indeed apply.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 04:44 PM

Help with UK Licensing problem is the start of this sorry tale.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:28 PM

The best way with daft laws is just to break them. That's where most of our public liberties have come from.

So far as sessions in pubs is concerned, one complicating factor is that the landlord has to worry about his licence (and probably about the company that owns the pub). The other is that nine times out of ten, nobody gives a bugger about the law in these cases, and there's a worry that raising it as a matter of principle might make someone give a bugger about. The nuisance is when you find your session is the one in ten that gets stomped - which is why the law has to be changed.

But when it comes to dancing on the highway, it's between the dancers and the local authority. I can't imagine the police being too eager to get involved in this kind of caper. Just imagine arresting a bunch of Morris Dancers.

"Free the Morris 8!"

It's just occurred to me, what with all this in the paper about Portillo and Co coming out for legalising dope as a token (these puns keep on coming inadvertently) gesture of Tory Libertarianism. I can envisage our music and dancing could be taken up in a similar way. Similar but less likely to offend the respectable people. (Little do they know...)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:49 PM

I used to drive a Morris 8.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 05:55 PM

I feel that Morris is the key to public awareness of the dangers of this legislation. People cannot easily see the admittedly subtle distinction between sessions and conventional pub entertainment. They do however know what Morris is, or rather what it is not.

It may not be edifying to see the way the press treat Morris but Council Bans Morris Dancing is the perfect 'silly season' headline. The public may not understand Morris but see it as a fairly harmless thing and have an affection for it.

A better headline would be Europe Bans Morris Dancing but you can't have everything?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

Well in fact it'd be more likely that European courts would overturn any attempts by British courts to ban Morris dancing. But I accept that the papers wouldn't like that one much.

Remember when Maggie tried to abloish the May bank hoiday, and Morris sides turned up to protest? and she backed down. (Mind you the hoteliers were probably a bigger influence on that...)

I think the only way you'll get the police arresting Morris dancers would be if they did something genuinely disruptive like dancing on a Zebra crossing at Rush Hour. Preferably naked.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Hollowfox
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM

I always thought morris dancing at your door brought you good luck. Perhaps the Local Authority is trying to drive away any good luck in the vicinity? ... Maybe you could get yourselves registered as a folk religion. It worked for the (neo) druids.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:03 PM

Interesting point again. There is another exemption to the licensing requirement, if the music is part of a religous service?

I think the argument could be, is a traditional custom, even if it may be entertaining, a staged public entertainment?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:06 PM

What about the Trooping of the Colour? Or those processions that Judges have on circuit, dressed up in funny costumes with all the crowd gawking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Noreen
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:25 PM

That's interesting, McG... Trooping the Colour involves music too, or is that 'incidental' to the proceedings? Ha!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:28 PM

Never underestimate the stupidity of Local Councillors.

Once upon a time a local council here in Wales was discussing how to increase tourism at the Local Castle.

"Well," said the Chair of Amenities, "We propose putting a Gondola on the Castle Moat."
" Ah," says the leader of the opposition, "Would not that be rather expensive ?"
"Yes." says the Chairman, "They cost about £5,000.00 each."
And there follows an discussion. At this point Councillor X wakes up. He realises as Deputy Chair of Amenities he had better make a contribution to the debate.
"Well hang the expense !" says Councillor X, "I propose we buy a pair of Gondolas and let then breed."

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:34 PM

Well, I am sorry that I missed your first post on this. The situation is plainly and completely ridiculous--I can think of any number of reasons that Morris Dancing should happen whenever and wherever, not the least of which is that it is a tradition with strong religious undertones or overtones, that goes back to the middle ages, which everyone here knows, I guess, but I am a getting a bit bent about this myself, and have to say something.

What we would do here under such circumstances, or what I would do (being a serious and earnest trouble maker) would be to call the TV and newspapers and make a big fuss, then find somebody famous, preferably a religious leader with a sense of humor,a trial lawyer or an aspiring politician who will come along to talk to the TV cameras, and tell the council to arrest us if they dare, and just do it--

My experience with this is that, whether you come out ahead or not, it puts all those idiots who caused the problem in the first place through a lot of aggravation(which makes it worth the aggravation that I have to go through)--

Good luck on this--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM

Unannounced guerrilla Morris dancing could be much more efun. Suddenly explode into action in shopping malls and bus stations. And as part of protest actions.

I can't see it working with Cotswold Morris, but the freakier types of Border Morris would flourish in that context.

Maybe a ban is what is needed to wake things up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:46 PM

SINSULL ASKS:

So if I show up on your doorstep with a boombox and a Chubby Checker CD, and we start doing the Twist together, we can be fined for other than creating a nuisance?

Probably not - but you COULD be arrested for pumping gas!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Noreen
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 07:53 PM

The Flag crackers side that I saw at the Four Fools Festival, Chorley 2 weeks ago, would do the job... they clogged like they meant it! (No sniggering at them!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:28 AM

The secret of dealing with councils is NEVER ASK PERMISSION TO DO ANYTHING! DO NOT tell them where you intend to perform. DO NOT send them an itinerary - If you do not bring something to their attention they will not know it has happened.
As far as dancing on a public space is concerned, the only people who can ask you to stop is the police, and unless you are causing an actual nuisance or obstruction to traffic, they have better things to do with their time, and anyway are probably somewhere else (especially if NOT being somewhere else would mean tangling with a Morris Team. If someone complains to you, explain what you are about (it will delay the move off), then move on with good grace - we are not here to make enemies!
Quack!
GtD


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:18 AM

There is a snippet on the album 'Rattlebone and Ploughjack' about how, back around 1900 or before, the police banned the 'Straw Bear' in Whittlesea and the surrounding area, because they defined it as 'cadging' or begging. Doesn't look like much has changed since then.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:33 AM

Pavane

Like a lot of things, the Straw Bear got pretty rowdy round about the end of C19th. The real reason it was banned was that it was associated with drunkenness and vandalism, I think. I believe a lot of traditional street football games (I mean similar in format to the Haxey Hood) were banned by police in the 1970s for the same reason.

Cheers!
Ian


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: pavane
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:38 AM

Down in West Wales a few years ago, the council PAID us to dance in the town. Naturally, we didn't take a collection on that occasion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:50 AM

Of course councils do not want to ban Morris on public house land or indeed the street. The resulting publicity would not be welcome to them. It would be very welcome for those trying to challenge them.

Councils such as Oxford and Weymouth and Portland have not had the same concern unfortunately, in preventing participatory traditional music sessions taking place without the licensee obtaining a Public Entertainment Licence. Mainly because they may understand a little of the former but wanted to understand nothing about the latter.

It is the very arguments that these councils have used against sessions that mean that Morris on pub ground requires a PEL

In fact there is a case that Morris, with its regular members and well-practised set, far more resembles a band or a conventional pub entertainment than does a session , with its floating personnel and chaotic nature.

I would maintain that neither of them are public entertainment provided by the Licensee and further that preventing this free expression is contrary to Article 10 of The Human Rights Act.

This situation has not been caused by asking permission from any Officer, they have take the action without any invitation. The 'head in the sand' approach will not now work. What I would suggest is to bring the issue to a head.

Where a side is due to dance on pub premises without a PEL, complain to your local Licensing officer and demand that they do their job.

The resulting publicity will be good for the cause if they take action or if they do not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:39 PM

It's not the first time. Morris Dancers were arrested in 1611 plus or minus a couple of years. For Dancing on a SUNDAY, shame of it. Border RULES OK. JohnB


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 01:43 PM

Why does Old Blighty seem to have so many stupid laws vis-a-vis public entertainment? Is this a ploy by the television networks to force people to watch TV instead of entertaining themselves?

Alex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Les/Manchester ex Gorton Morrismen
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 01:44 PM

See my ealier posting - if itsn't a bit scarry and ileagal what the hell is it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:37 PM

First ask for an exemption.
If they refuse that then send three people, very nicely dressed to one of their meetings and ask nicely again.
If they still refuse the exemption. Then turn up at their council meeting with the fully regaled Morris Team.
If that doesn't get you the exemption then send all your documentation to the local rag and TV and Radio stations. Get the support of as many other Morris and folk dance teams and local folk musicians as you can and stage a dance/song/demonstration outside the council offices.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: bobby's girl
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:39 PM

(Actually Bobby's Girl's husband)

As a Weymouth & Portland Council employee, ex longsword-dancer and regular drinker in The Cove I feel some objectivity is needed in this debate and the issue of legislation applying to traditional activities in the modern world which I will add as another new thread.

Firstly I add that I am not in the Legal Unit but was present at the Social and Community Committee (to present a report on another item) when this matter was debated and the Committee was eloquently addressed by a London Jazz Musician under the Council's democratic public speaking arrangements.

One key thread made by Councillors during the debate was that the law is "silly" but it is the law. It also arose that there will shortly be a consultation paper on it at which point objections can be made and the Council intend to raise this issue at that time. The key legal issue was whether the law should be applied not whether it was being broken. This law is a central government law and therefore "Council bans ....." is typical mis-reporting and should in any event be "Government bans...."

In this specific case under the law as it stands a situation requiring a PEL was taking place and had been advertised as such in the pub (and I think the local paper too) to attact additional musicians and as an incidental side effect sell more ale in the pub. A formal complaint was made, I believe by another licensee who had previously had to obtain a PEL for music at his pub, the pub was visited and a music activity requiring a licence was taking place. In this situation(whether or not the law is an ass)any Licencing Officer of any Council has to take the necessary action as if he/she does not the chances are an Ombudsman case etc will arise.

Therefore it is national law that is the issue not the local enforcement of it and the relevant channel is a complaint through your local MP. I presume in fact that the law is so ridiculous that every pub in the land should have a PEL as on New Years Eve at 23:59 more than four persons will predictably join together into a ring and sing Auld Lang Syne!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM

More good points here Traditional activities and the law


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Fiolar
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:40 AM

At the risk of upsetting people what has the guy Morris ever done for us/ . Seriously though, not to worry too much. In 1930s Ireland, certain members of the clergy tried to get Irish dancing banned. It doesn't seem to have suffered too much.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:45 AM

For the purposes of objectivity, here is Hamish Birchall's report on this meeting.

The minutes of this meeting are still unavailable.

As promised, here is my report on my presentation at the Weymouth council meeting (below) on behalf of Roger Gall, the amateur folk musician whose session was prevented for some five months by PEL enforcement action in Portland. I have taken the opportunity to relate this to other developments, in Oxford and London.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________ Weymouth & Portland Borough Council Social/Community Committee meeting Tuesday 5 June 2001
Council officers attending included:
Melanie Earnshaw, Solicitor
Ian Locke, Director of Tourism and Leisure Services
Sue Allen, Licensing Manager
Tony Beeson, Environmental Health Services Manager
Geoff Pritchard, Senior Committee Administrator
Councillors:
12 members in social/community committee (plus two apologies)
(unadopted minutes are usually circulated a month later - I have requested a copy when available)

______________________________________________________________________________________________ The Committee was presented with a report dated 23 May 2001, jointly authored by Sue Allen (Licensing Manager) and Melanie Earnshaw (Borough Solicitor). The report asked: 'That members confirm that steps taken by Licensing Officers to encourage an application from the proprietor of the Cove House Inn, Portland, for a Licence permitting public entertainment on the premises were appropriate and justified'. My impression following this meeting, and the recent public consultation in Camden, is that local authority licensing managers and solicitors are withholding important information from councillors, and may even be knowingly misleading them. This is preventing a proper debate about the whole range of licensing issues. The motives would appear to be a mixture of misplaced professional amour-propre, empire-building and maintenance.

Roger Gall, the amateur folk musician whose informal jam session had been prevented for six months by council enforcement action, could not attend. He asked me to take his place.

In spite of the fact that my written invitation from WPBC carried the heading 'Democratic Services' I was allowed only 4 minutes to speak. Both WPBC's formal invitation and a copy of the internal report (copy available) on the enforcement action reached me only the day before the meeting. On the day itself they gave the 12 attending councillors five minutes to read two letters (five sides of A4) that I had sent in February and March to Melanie Earnshaw arguing that councils should relax enforcement against certain types of live music. The letters point out that local authorities have complete discretion in the PEL fees they set, some discretion in the interpretation of the law that applies, and adequate powers under separate legislation to address most of the problems PELs supposedly deal with.

I also argued that certain strict enforcement may be unlawful under the Human Rights because it prevents the legitimate exercise of freedom of expression where there are no noise or safety issues. At the meeting I argued against the Committee accepting the report, jointly signed by Melanie Earnshaw and Licensing Manager Sue Allen, which called for retrospective endorsement of the enforcement action that had prevented Mr Gall's session. The report was drafted in a way that led councillors away from an informed debate about the underlying issues. The anomalous exemptions to PELs were not mentioned at all (Crown land, recorded sound, satellite tv etc), case law in support of the council position was alluded to but not cited, case law that might be in the musicians favour was omitted, the duplication of safety legislation and PELs was not discussed.

By WPBC's own admission, there were no noise complaints resulting from Mr Gall's music-making. More significantly there were no safety concerns either. The public entertainment licence was granted to the pub last month without any safety conditions attached. There were no objections to the PEL from either the police or fire service.

There had been one or two noise complaints in previous years occasioned by an outside charity event that the publican, Mr Flynn (The Cove Inn, Portland) organises himself on one day in the year. This was referred to at the meeting as 'a history of noise problems at The Cove'. When The Cove's PEL application was made public, four objections on the grounds of potential for noise disturbance were made. These were due to be considered at a hearing, but Ms Allen persuaded the complainants to withdraw just 24 hours prior to the hearing taking place. Thus the PEL was granted.

The new PEL actually increases the public safety risk because it insists that members of the public attending the next charity event must come inside after 6pm. The pub's capacity limit of 95 was unchanged since being set by the fire service some years ago. Mr Flynn claims that the greatest contribution to the good cause comes late in the evening when people often hand over the change left in their pockets. If the event now has to come indoors after 6pm, the large numbers attending outdoors will either leave or pack into the pub making it dangerous. Either way the good cause loses out. The Cove's charity fetes have been reported favourably in the local press. They raised about £700-800 on each occasion. Mr Flynn showed me the press cuttings.

In my view, in preventing Mr Gall's music-making, WPBC was acting unlawfully under s 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998. Because there were no noise or safety concerns, the enforcement was disproportionate and incompatible with Mr Gall and participating members of the public exercising their right to freedom of expression under Article 10 of the European Convention.

In spite of my making this point, and even though two or three councillors accepted that s 182 as it stands is an ass, I am afraid that the Committee voted overwhelmingly to support the licensing enforcement. They did vote to add a qualifying statement to the effect that some form of public consultation on the issue may be useful at a future date. One councillor asked if there was any mechanism for such a consultation, apparently not knowing about the Local Cultural Strategy, a Department of Culture initiative which all local authorities must complete by 2002. The LCS requires local authorities to undertake extensive public consultation, and specifically mentions a need for a review of licensing arrangements in small venues. I raised this point, but the meeting seemed to move swiftly to other agenda items. I left shortly afterwards, unsure of the final wording of the amendment.

The fact is that the councillors, with one or two exceptions, didn't really understand the issue. In spite of the fact that Weymouth police officers have expressed concerns about the council's inconsistent enforcement of PEL conditions, and that public disorder and disturbance will - like most areas of the country - be associated with nightclubs and late-opening bars that hold PELs, councillors remain apparently convinced of PELs' efficacy in controlling noise and alcohol-related crime and disorder. I don't think it is going too far to say that the officers of the council tended to reinforce these perceptions, either by failing to correct councillors' mistaken assumptions (many of the questions councillors asked revealed a profound ignorance about how the law actually works), or by stating that the law is clear when it is not. The significance of the HRA and the European Convention was disregarded by councillors - the underlying assumption being, I suspect, that live music cannot be that important, particularly when it is amateur and taking place in a pub.

Tony Beeson, Weymouth's Environmental Health Services manager, admitted to me outside the meeting afterwards that safety legislation was quite up to the task of ensuring public safety for this sort of music-making at The Cove, irrespective of whether a PEL applied. But he did not mention this at the meeting. He also suggested that if Weymouth, which he claimed was a small under-resourced authority, were to be 'made an example of' by musicians bringing a case alleging a breach of their rights under the HRA, then other local authorities would join Weymouth to fight it. It would seem they are taking the possibility of a challenge quite seriously.

Oxford's internal report (copy available) on its own enforcement action against a very similar folk session is misleading in broadly the same way as Weymouth's. I have written to Oxford's legal director setting out my reservations about the report. No reply so far.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:36 AM

'That members confirm that steps taken by Licensing Officers to encourage an application from the proprietor of the Cove House Inn, Portland, for a Licence permitting public entertainment on the premises were appropriate and justified'

This was what the members were asked to do. Not too suprising that they did just that, if you read Hamish's report (above)? The meeting was not to determine any key legal points such as "whether the law should be applied not whether it was being broken". The law had been applied.

My original request was that the members looked at the future of traditional music events in the light of the policy that the officers had made for them and the public of Weymouth and Portland.

The events and the officer's 'fairy story' given in their report for the meeting, of how things happened, is the subject of a complaint, which will most probably finish up with the local government ombudsman.

No "formal complaint" was ever made against the session. WPBC have admitted that.

There have been conflicting explanations as to how the officers came to visit, the one they seem now to have settled is this undated unrecorded anonymous complaint to unlicensed events, which there is no evidence that it ever existed, from unidentified presumed licensee. Why would you "believe" any of this and why would you state here that this was in any shape or form to be considered a "formal complaint"?

There is acording to WPBC's latest information, only one officer, the Licensing Manager who could have actually visited the event. The whole issue is based one that expressed and unchallenged opinion as the the nature of the event. My opinion, that it was not a public entertainment provided by the licensee, is as valid as hers, that it was.

Please do not assume that what your hear an officer of WPBC say, is the whole truth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:57 AM

Unfortuately our MP did believe what the officers told him to be the whole truth.

We do now have a new MP.........


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Les/Manchester ex Gorton Morrismen
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 01:51 PM

So, Morris Dancing is innocent is he. That's what is wrong with the whole of this strand.

When Ash Lathom and Chris Cole led Gorton Men to Dance in the wind and rain, on the pavement, without permission or notice, outside 6 small pubs on a Friday night in Openshaw, Longsight or Beswick people gathered and were amazed.

So much Morris is like daytime TV. It's tame and completely free of drama or excitement. No one really knows the origin or purpose of Morris but surely ritual, drama, surprise and not a little lawlessness must lie at its heart.

Perhaps its just a way of men (mostly) dancing together in public without having to explain themselves


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 04:52 PM

Central Government has made it quite clear that that it does not wish this legislation to be used by local authorities, against the public, Morris included, in this fashion. WPBC's officers have chosen to ignore this.

Local authorities such as WPBC also have equal responsibilities for cultural and human rights legislation that should prevent the 'tunnelled vision' enforcement of this Licensing legislation in isolation.

Try as one wants, it is certainly not possible to blame the conditions on outside entertainment that WPBC's officers have imposed on the Cove's PEL, on central Government? These conditions were not presented before any elected members of the council. The PEL hearing scheduled to discuss the application, being cancelled by the Licensing Manager at the very last minute.

These senseless conditions prevent any outside entertainment not just amplified music from taking place, except once in August?

These are entirely down to WPBC's officers not being able or willing to distinguish between entertainment, that may be a noise problem (amplified music) and entertainment that will not.

I must admit that I am now getting rather tired of the 'we are but just a poor little council' attitude or of hearing 'it's the law and we must enforce it' or even the 'it's your fault for bringing it to their attention' attitude.

The one and only advert appeared in the local paper on the 7th December when the first session took place. It was not placed again because the officers visited the very next day, to 'encourage' the licensee to obtain a PEL. According to WPBC's officer's own account, this 'encouragement' took place, even though the session had not yet been witnessed to ascertain its nature or the number of musicians involved.

Oh yes, the 'encouragement' to which the officers refer in their report, is a letter threatening the Licensee with a possible £20.000 fine or six months in prison. This being just an example of the 'spin' contained in a report claimed to be objective advice to enable members to make policy.

WPBC's officers have had plenty of opportunity at each stage to consider the full effect and implications of their actions and to consider alternatives, it is to their lasting shame that they chose to pursue this with such certainty and apparent zeal. They are charged with the public's interest, it is difficult to see how their actions in this sad episode can have been in anyone's interests?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:27 PM

Roger, I am both disgusted and amused by these proceedings, and I thank you profusely for sharing them with us. I also applaud you for sticking with it--

Meanwhile, it seems that there must be some one on the Council side who is pushing this absurdity, do you know who that is? If you can identify your main opponent, it may be possible to make your efforts much more effective--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 04:32 AM

Locally there are two strands. The first is the individual event and its treatment by the council officers. This I thought was best directed at the officers and the department(s) concerned by the form of an a formal complaint, which is progressing slowly. Ironically it is the Director of Tourism that is pushing the hard line, by supporting the actions of his department. He has now however compromised his boss, The Chief Executive by obtaining his full support for their actions. My complaint is currently with him.

The second strand was the general effect this PEL policy of 'members of the public as performers' will have on local traditional events. I thought The best way for this was to have the council members meet and decide this. Sadly the the offcers saw this meeting only as a chance to compromise the members into endorsing their actions and used their control of their system to ensure the meeting did just that.

We are not without support from the councillors (not many of these were on this committee), but if members are (wrongly) told by their legal advisors that the 'law is clear', they will tend to agree, for it is a complicated subject. They would certainly need to understand it better to enable them to refuse to endorse their officer's actions, as they were asked to do at this meeting.

Sadly I was not at the meeting (which may have been a good thing), so will have to wait for the minutes, to see who said what and which councillors may be helpful.

I would like to publicly thank Hamish Birchall for coming all the way down and doing such a fine job at this meeting.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 03:23 AM

In tis case Central Government has made it clear that this legislation will change.

In particular the Section 182 exemption, (the two in a bar rule), the part that has made the whole legislation a nonsense will be scrapped.

Local authority's employees do not appear to like this change or the limbo that we are all in, until the new legislation comes into force. That does not mean that council officers should take advantage of this situation.

Paid offers of our councils are conspiring together against the public's interests and wishes. This is true certainly in the case of Oxford's and my own, They are making policy for us.

They have both prepared reports designed only to obtain endorsement for their policy and interpretation of the law from their elected members. Also by ignoring their other responsibilities under cultural and human rights legislation.

This has been achieved by supplying incomplete 'advice' to the meetings. Reports with such 'spin' that there really is now choice for the members, who trust that the information their oficers provide is full and objective.

I think it has at least been demonstrated here on Mudcat, the complicated nature of these laws? Members are being advised that 'the law is clear', in support of their actions, when it clearly is no such thing.

What does your local councillor say? They probably would not know what to say? Why not inform them?

It really is up to us to have the laws enforced that reflect the public's current wishes and not have our activities haunted by those that do not. Does anyone else out there consider that these two council's officers have acted in the public interest?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:09 AM

No one?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:49 PM

Well, not having a councillor, I am not sure whether I can voice anything other than a general opinion-which is that there is something wrong with people who make decisions based on someone's opinion on what the law is without bothering to read the law themselves--that said, am I right in understanding that when the legislation is changed, it will be clear enough that, like it or not, the local employees will no longer have the two in a bar rule to either interpret or enforce? If so, at the end, you will win out--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 12:25 PM

Yes that is probably true but the end is not yet in sight. The new legislation however is huge and will take forever even if it is actually started, with no certainty that it too will not be 'ammended' out of all usefulness.

What do you do in the meantime If you want to organise something that you know that under the present legislation is illegal?

Back in the days of ny ignorance, I advertised an event. Would I do that now? Now that I know oficials will act against it? Probably not. I would not organise one if I could not advertise it freely, so we have yet another event prevented. This will be magnified all across the country.

Most of us now know the legal situation and still now under the present legislation, have to find a sensible way to deal with it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 06:34 PM

The following is more on Council's other responsibilities. Ones that may or should interfere with this tunnel vision enforcement.

Hamish Birchall sent the following to me.

"Also last December the DCMS published a useful document called 'Creating Opportunities'.

It calls on local authorities to prepare a 'Local Cultural Strategy' by 2002. The purpose is to put 'culture centre stage in the business of local authorities', and is all about utilising local talent and initiative to widen everyone's participation and access to all forms of 'cultural life' - which includes live music of course.

The means by which councils prepare this 'strategy' is first and foremost consultation. This is emphasised throughout the document. Local authorities must also start to work 'holistically', which means that the arts departments must start talking to the licensing department, and working co-operatively for a shared goal. At the moment the two departments are often working with contradictory agendas: one seeks to promote local live music, the other shuts it down.

You should find out who is heading up the Local Cultural Strategy team in your council, and get a copy of 'Creating Opportunities' as soon as possible from Terry Connell at the DCMS on 0207-211 6370.

Note that on p35 there is a specific mention that more pubs/small venues should be developed, and licensing arrangements reviewed."


Have you been consulted?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 06:40 PM

Oops!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 07:03 PM

It looks like things are moving forward--it will be interesting to see how that "working co-operatively for a shared goal" goes--the bureaucrats here protect their little spheres of authority very jealously--I hope you will be lobbying your Local Cultural Strategy team aggressively--


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM

Apart from my previous comment regarding the quality (read stupidity) of some local Councillors in the U.K, you must remember that when it comes to periferal activities by the employees of local authorities the phrase "Justify your activities" comes to mind.

If an authority is given powers, it will appoint staff to deal with those powers. To justify their existance ? well find and licence - raise revenue ? - fill in time sheets.

No I'am afraid burocrats need to justify their own existance. I suspect this is not confined to the U.K.

What a pity it is that Music has to suffer !

Sorry if I seem cynical - I spent 60 minutes in a meeting tonight (wearing my Party hat) briefing a group of SWales Councillors in our little valley on the inplications of certain proposed regulations eminating from Westminster.

I could have enjoyed my self more, drinking luke -warm Watneys.(*) My God some of them were thick !!!!!!!

(*) Watneys - non CAMRA members, or those who have not visited the U.K. a now (thank God) defunct National Brewery whose products where not of the highest standards - in fact give me the choice ofWatneys Red or Budweisser, well it's the Bud.

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 07:14 PM

Getting any local press coverage on this Shambles? If so, there'd probably be a link you could post about it.

I still think, that openly breaking the law, in a way that won't endanger the publican's licence, is the best way to help towards it being changed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:26 AM

My problem with the local press is that they do not wish to upset the local council.

I had a keen young reporter set to do the story but the news editor would not run the story.

I have sent them stuff since but no joy apart from the 'gig' guide informing about the London 'day of action'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 08:13 AM

STOP PRESS

I have just been informed that we are now illegal againd.

The licence was issued on 16/05/01 and valid until 30/06/01. It has expired after six weeks.

Our officers, in their haste stated "to the 30th June next".

This is not a wind-up..............

The whole long process will have to start again.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: clansfolk
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 09:17 AM

Gareths comments re Watneys reminded me of the verse we used to sing in the 60's (Come Landlord fill the Flowing Bowl) - ahh good old Cartford Arms.

What's the beer we all love best?
Draughtneys What Red Barrel
A special beer that beats the rest
Draughtneys What Red Barrel

Drink Red Barrel, near or far
In bucket or p-ss pot or any old jar
It Tastes Bl--dy awful where ever you are
Drink Draughtneys What Red Barrel

Red Barrel, Red Barrel,
Red Barrel men say the same again
cr-p!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 10:42 AM

Perhaps it should be made clearer that abolishing the "two in the bar" rule is the abolition of an exemption. Once (if ever) the exemption is gone, then until the law relating to PELs is re-stated a PEL will be needed for even one or two public entertainers. Better half a loaf than no bread.

What would be fairly easy would be a new Statutory Instrument to add some more thoughtful exemption, but drafting it is going to be tricky. I live next door to a pub and across the road from another and if I got a chance to shut down their karaoke, one man bands (with PA rig) discos (outside in summer from noon till midnight on a Sunday), juke boxes, and outside barbecues, not to mention them serving leery kids who, when I pass, even though I have two large dogs with me, ask at a shout "Hey, want to by some fucking pills grandpa?", would I not do so?

A specific (and accurate, no euro-waffle about "proportional" here please, we're British) exemption for fairly peaceful middle class activity (or middle class type even when practised by the upper or lower classes) that covers both inside and outside activities is not easy to explain much less draw in detail. But it is important that it be clear if it is to be presented as preferable to any lack of clarity in the existing law as redoubled by any rational argument about "public entertainment provided by the Licensee" or Human Rights.

By the way what happened to the day of action?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 01:44 PM

For info on the day of action I tried the EFDSS Root Source website - but their link to their page about it didn't work for me. But I suppose that's the place to look anyway.

As for two-in-a-bar, we've been over this a few times, and it's still clear as mud.

The two-in-a-bar is an exemption of activities that would otherwise require a Public Entertainment Licence. That could mean musicians, comedians, jugglers. So long as no more than two are performing in an evening.

The question which has never been resolved in a court is whether the kind of thing we are talking about, people playing and singing, telling stories etc primarily for their own mutual social enjoyment fall within the category of activities that require a Public Entyertanment, whether in a pub, a coffee-bar or a barbershop.

That is to say, is the current law intended to prohibit that kind of thing - and if it is intended to do so, is that in itself consistant with over-riding human rights legislation?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:37 AM

Photographers were present at The Cove last evening, taking shots (not with guns) of Royal Manor Morris, for an article to appear in this Saturday's Guardian.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: rea
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM

do you know what the spin of the articleis going to be? will it be on the web?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:07 PM

I have long ago given up hope of predicting what a journalist might say or indeed if anything will appear at all. Maev Kennedy is the Arts and Heritage correspondent of the Guardian and my current hopes are with her.

If the article does appear, I will post it here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:36 AM

My hopes were well placed, this time?

From The Guardian Saturday July 28th

Maev Kennedy Arts and Heritage Correspondent.

On a glorious summer's evening the law of the land was flagrantly being broken at Cove House Inn, on the edge of Chesil beach in Dorset.
The Royal Manor morris dancers had turned up, with several musicians, and were entertaining or tormenting the crowd of outdoor drinkers as they have for 20 years.
At this point landlord Brian Flynn should have ordered everyone inside his tiny bar, which can hold, provided everyone keeps their elbows by their sides, 95 people.
Instead he and his staff continued to ferry drinks outside, and break the law. "What am I to do? Everyone is having a lovely time--am I to break up the session, force them inside, and really risk a public order problem? Who are we disturbing? In front of us there's nobody except fishes. I won't do it, and I've told the council I won't," Mr Flynn said.

The cove is enmeshed in the anomalies of the public entertainment licence, loosely known as the "two in a bar rule", a law dating back to 1964 which says that the landlord must obtain a licence if more than two people perform on his premises. There are reports from all over the country of increasingly rigid enforcement by local authorities. The definition has been stretched to include members of the audience joining in the chorus of songs, or even clapping in time, or two performers with a taped backing track.

Licenses can cost up to £4,000, a severe overhead for small pubs particularly if the licensing authority insists on expensive building alterations as a condition. Potential penalties are loss of licence, up to six months prison, or fines up to £20,000.

The government has promised reform as part of a bill which would also have liberalised pub hours, but which fell with the last parliament and was not included in the Queen's speech for the current session. The system is being fought by a coalition including the Folk Society, the Musicians union, saxophone playing Tory Lord Colwyn, head of the parliamentary jazz committee, Liberal Democrat Lord Redesdale, and the Bishop of Oxford.

We are not the villains of the piece, we are just trying to enforce the law as it stands", Mike Brock, a licensing officer at Weymouth and Portland council, said. "Reform would certainly make our lives easier".

Back at the Cove there is another peculiarity of the law which would keep the Royal Manor morris perfectly legal: if they moved a few feet further away from the pub, they would then risk an eight foot drop over the sea wall onto the concrete and shingle below.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:48 AM

"We are not the villains of the piece, we are just trying to enforce the law as it stands", Mike Brock, a licensing officer at Weymouth and Portland council, said. "Reform would certainly make our lives easier".

Well of course making the officer's live easier is what it is all about, is it not?

I see they wheeled out the lowest possible ranking officer to face the bullets. According to the date of the visits that WPBC provided, this poor chap never actually saw the session taking place, but was only sent to deliver any bad news.

In the photograph you will see at least 4 Mudcatters. Well if you look very hard you may just see my foot and a bit of my banjo case and the lower torso of our 'host'.

Nice shots of the dancers though.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 10:19 AM

"We are just trying to enforce the law as it stands" is of course crap.

There is no obligation to enforce every law, otherwise they'd be knee deep in cases about sumptuary laws and mince pies and all that stuff that's never been taken off the statute book. And how often do they prosecute people for dropping a sweet paper, or spitting out a bit of chewing gum?

They have a duty to use their common and prioritise. Which means in the jargon of the day, decriminalising Morris dancing and sessions in pubs, until the higher authorities can get round to recognising that these kind of things are and always have been, inalienable human rights.

Probably nobody needs convincing here - the value of rehearsing these kinds of arguments is so that we have them handy when we are talking to someone who actually needs convincing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 11:41 AM

Here is a link to the story on the Guardian website - Councils make song and dance over pub law

But I couldn't find it in the paper. Maybe it got squeezed out in the edition I got. So I didn't get to see Shamble's foot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Bonzo
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM

I think that should be five mudcatters. I'm the musician on the left.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:24 PM

I wish I had seen the site before I typed it all out.

The article is on page 6 of the main paper.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 02:39 PM

Well in my edition page 6 has a main srory abouy Teenagers shun safe sex plea, a row about a TV programme (Channel 4 faces anger after paedophilia stunt), one about a Nazi suspect, , and a story about sheep being culled in Wales, with a large picture of some worried looking sheep.

Now I wonder which of those pushed you out in my edition, which would be later than yours, since I live quite near London. Probably the sheep, since that story has the picture...

Still, it's a nice story, and should mean tht the local paper will be pretty certain to run something - that's the way locals work.

But you really need The Sun, and that'll require naked Ladies Morris I'm afraid. Borderline Morris.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 06:47 PM

Yes it was the bloody sheep.

Interesting you mention the local paper as a gentleman from the local rag called today. Saturday at 11.30am!

This after ignoring the story for months......

Anyone offering to turn up for the naked ladies Morris story?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM

RTW Shambles the edition available in Caerphilly did not picture the sheep. I can only presume it was out of respect. They could have been someone's girl friend !

Gareth


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM

Thank for keeping us up to date, Shambles.

Where would naked morris dancers wear their bells? :0)

Noreen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 12:42 PM

I will refer that question to the ladies of Royal Manor Morris...

On their 'boaters'?

"You can leave your hat on"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: running.hare
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:40 PM

The was a femail morris side @ the milton abbas street fair yesterday, but i'm afraid they were all fully clothed. & a few of them skipped a few inches off the road & on to the pub forecourt! shocking it was!!! ;¬)

(& I apologise 4 my speeling)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM

Yes, I could not find it in the Gruauniad either. THey are supposed to be all for music and Kultcher'n'stuff.

Yeah, right, if you can play it electric in Islington or it's opera.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM

Still no takers for 'The Full Morris'?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM

This is a link to Trevor Gilson's site where you can find many record of events and documents.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Stewart
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 07:05 PM

I don't know what it is about Morris Dancing, but it also seems to illegal on this side of the pond (Seattle, Washington). The following article describes the incident.

S. in Seattle

DANCE NOTES - Dancing May Be Arresting
by Karen Shaw (from the Seattle Folklore Society Flyer, August, 2001)

What happens when you combine a beautiful summer solstice night, four groups of Morris dancers, a few musicians, and an Army Corps of Engineers person who may have far too little to do? I was excited as my husband and I drove to the Magnolia side of the Ballard Locks by the fish ladder, where we were to meet my other team members of North by Northwest Morris dancers. At 7:30pm, our group, Misty City, Mossy Backs, and Sound and Fury were all meeting to dance in the summer solstice. Our musicians were ready to play; we were ready to dance. There were merely a handful of people on that side of the locks as my group started its first dance. We are a group of eight, and the largest of the teams. By the end of the dance we had an audience of about 15 folks. They applauded as we finished and I felt like a real street performer - the way Morris dancing is meant to be! It was pretty cool, I admit.

As the next group started to dance, a few more people stopped to watch. The music is simple and lilting, the dances are aerobic, and the costumes are bright and colourful. Again, the dancers were applauded as they finished and some folks asked us questions about who we were and why we danced. It was a perfect evening, friendly, peaceful, and with good energy flowing between the dancers and the watchers.

All of a sudden. across the bridge strode a man in a green uniform. He did not look friendly. He was not smiling or tapping his toe in time to the music. As I watched in amazement, he told that since we had forgotten to get a permit, we had to leave- - or else. I'm not sure what the "or else" was; I think we were to be arrested if we didn't immediately cease and desist. We were told that we were on military property, not city property, and they had regulations. And regulations must be followed at all times. Many folks told him that they were enjoying watching us, but to no avail. We pointed out that we were blocking nothing, and that we were dancing for the joy of it. It had no political ramifications and we weren't peddling a thing. Our entreaties fell on deaf ears. We had to go. We asked if he could call his supervisor and get permission; he refused to try.

So we left. We went up to the street level and continued our dances on the public sidewalk, where no one told us to leave. A few folks followed us there and a few cars stopped on the street to watch. We still had fun and we turned it all into a joke. But I can't imagine what purpose was served by making us leave don't understand how we endangered anything by bringing folks a little music and dance on a warm solstice evening. Perhaps some of you might have an answer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: bobby's girl
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 07:38 PM

I've just got back from Folkworks in Durham (via my mother-in-law's which accounts for the delay) so I've only just seen the article and photograph, as they didn't print it in the northern edition of the Guardian. I like the piccy, as I'm the one right in the centre! Apart from that, I hope it manages to cause at least a ripple of concern somewhere, as the present situation is ridiculous, and continues to deteriorate!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 02:46 AM

By the way, who was the poor soul in the very foreground of the photo, represented by only her bells?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 10:28 AM

Surely classifying morris dancing as a public entertainment is an oxymoron?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 11:37 AM

I have found there to be lots of those in our council...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: vindelis
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM

Shambles, the 'poor soul' as you so kindly put it is Angie Leggett, the wife of Lennie, the other musician in the picture. The 'artistic' - his words not mine - photographer, wanted a shot of a foot in the picture. Angie was deemed to have the cleanest shoes. I'm the dancer facing Bobby's Girl.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 09:40 AM

How about the 'Full Morris' then, You could keep your shoes on too?

Latest is that the Licensing Manager called in to meet with the Licensse, face to face for the very first time, in all the eight months or longer, that this has been going on. She seemed to the Licensee to be most helpful. What a pity this meeting could not have happened before? Like on the evening she visited the session and recorded "at least four performers" and did not speak to anyone? As I was present that night, she does know me to look at but after all this time I would know her if I tripped over her.

Maybe I did????

Or even worse???????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 06:38 PM

Is there any chance that our authority has now read and taken notice of the following?

The following is a Q and A, from An introduction The Human Rights Act.

DOES THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT AFFECT THE WAY GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC BODIES BEHAVE?

Yes. The Human Rights Act says that all public authorities must pay proper attention to your rights when they are making decisions that affect you. Public authorities include Government Ministers, civil servants, your local authority or health authority, and also agencies like the police, the courts and private companies when carrying out public functions.

That's nothing new - respecting rights and balancing rights and responsibilities has always been an important part of public service in this country. But the Human Rights Act makes sure that those in authority over you will have to check that they do not ride roughshod over your rights, even when they believe they are doing so for a good reason. They will have to be careful about the balance they are striking and think hard about how they can cause the least possible harm to individuals.

No..........I don't suppose so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 07:05 PM

Extract from the WPBC report presented to and endorsed by the members on 05/06/01.

"By applying the relevant licensing legislation the council has imposed conditions and restrictions on Mr Gall's rights which are legal, neccessary and proportionate in the interests of public safety, control of nuisance and the prevention of crime and disorder".

A drunk in charge of a banjo can do a lot of damage I know but?????

Maybe they had seen that old Ealing comedy, where criminals meet to plan their next crime, carrying into the room instrument cases?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: vindelis
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 07:22 PM

Puts a whole new slant on 'Hit me with your rhythm stick' doesn;t it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 08:01 PM

Oh, Shambles, that quote is wonderful... can you get it blown up and framed?
Include it in your CV?
Busk behind it in the middle of town??

Can we all have one?

Noreen
grinningquietlytomyself


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Frogge
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 11:23 PM

I appologise if this point has been made before.

Have you contacted the CRE. It is obvious that the rituals of a minority culture are being threatened


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 02:39 AM

CRE.

I don't think that it has been suggested before. Do you think it is worth a try?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Bonzo
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 01:47 PM

Don't you have to be drunk to play the banjo? or does it just take lots of pluck


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 03:01 PM

Pints of pluck......

Eventually after 8 months, this story appeared in the Dorset Evening Echo 04/0801. C/W nice colour photo of landlord and pub……………No Morris persons, naked or otherwise...... Story by Tim Champion.

Landlord fears system threatens future of traditional music.

CALL FOR SCRAPPING OF LICENSING LAWS.

Pub landlord Brian Flynn fears strict licensing laws could threaten the future of traditional music.

Mr Flynn, who runs the Cove House Inn on Portland, is calling for the current system to be scrapped. He admits he has already broken the terms of his entertainment licence three times this year.

As the law stands, landlords must have a licence if more than two people perform on the premises. Officers from Weymouth and Portland Borough Council visited the Cove House Inn after a folk night started last year.

Mr Flynn later acquired a licence covering him for music inside the pub and for an annual outdoor charity bash in August.

He said "one of the conditions of the licence is that I can hold one outdoor charity event every year, as long as it finishes by 6pm. But I have already hosted three evening Morris dancing events outside the pub this summer".

" I can't see what harm it is doing. I don't think we should need a licence a licence for Morris dancing or folk musicians. It is part of out English cultural heritage and it is being stamped on by these strict licensing laws".

He added "The Thursday night event is a jam session for local musicians--we are just providing a place for them to play. The big pubs won't do this because they don't see it as making commercial sense".

Mr Flynn says he is also concerned that he paid £180 to the borough council for a licence that only lasted six weeks, from May 16 to June 30, rather than a year. He said "I think the council has made a mistake".

Folk musician Roger Gall, who started the folk night, said "The event is not a commercial one and none of the musicians are paid".

"Folk music is a grey area under the current laws and I believe there is enough scope for Weymouth and Portland Borough Council to use its discretion".

Borough council licensing manager Sue Allen, said "It is not for me to put individual interpretations on the law—I have to treat everybody equally. If Mr Flynn or Mr Gall want a change in the law, they must lobby for it nationally".

She added; "All licences expire on June 30 and Mr Flynn has already had the benefit of a licence for several months without actually having one".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM

The full report that WPBC presented to the members on 05/06/01 can be found on Trever Gilson's Site HERE

Please somebody read it, as I typed the whole bloody thing out?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Noreen
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 06:33 PM

Duly read, Mr Gall, sir...

Having witnessed a folk music session involving at least four musicians at the premises Licensing Officers were satisfied that public entertainment was being provided...

Well, that's nice to know! :0)

Noreen


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: vindelis
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 06:51 PM

Having seen how slowly the wheels of local government seem to turn, when dealing with these situations; why don't councils have a sliding scale of charges for PELs - throughout the year? Secondly, is there a cut-off date (prior to the 30th June) for the issue of new licences? If not I pity the poor chap who gets one issued on the 29th! Mind you considering how hard up some councils are these days it wouldn't surprise me if it did happen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 07:57 AM

Thank you Sahmbles.

I ahve not been able to get a copy online of all the relevant sections of the 1982 Act.

I'm still trying to get one elsewhere.

One avenue of attack is on the wording of the section. I am not optimistic.

May I respecfully suggest that Mr Gall writes to the solicitor and asks for copies of the case law cited?

Another avenue of attack is on those cases but it might be necessary to litigate.

ANother angle might be on the duty to apply the law: see how diligently (if at all) the councils are performing their duties to enforce and protect rights of way. I'll bet my bottom dollar that about 50% or more of local byways or bridelways or RUPPS are obstructed, yet there will be at best feeble efforts to clear them and no effort to make landownres keep them open to ALL the classses of traffic entitled to use them.

I repeat that if a serious attempt is to be made to argue the human rights angle you need a serious human rights lawyer. See if Gerffrey RObertson is interested pro bono.

You also need to be chasing the civil servants responsible for the reform of licensing law.

Where are the rest of the campaigners? I think CPRE is a good idea. Try other local historical and so on societies. Tell EFDSS to keep keepong us all up to date.

What happened to the cultiral angle (you know, the stuff about keeping local culture on the go).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 11:36 AM

I nearly missed this editorial in our local paper, the Dorset Evening Echo 04/08/01.

Bitter blow for folk.

LIVE music in pubs is in the news with the report that the landlord of the Cove Inn on Portland fears observing the letter of the law when it comes to entertainment licenses threatens to kill off traditional pursuits (see report on page 7).

Brian Flynn says folk music and morris dancing could both be caught in the licence trap.

And Roger Gall, who runs a folk club at the inn, says ethnic music is a grey area and the council could ignore it if it wished…we believe it is something that is overdue for review.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Council Bans Morris Dancing
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 10:07 AM

Please do not post any more on this thread as it is a little big now for some browsers to load.

The saga continues however on Council Bans Morris Part 2


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 7 August 10:02 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.