BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?

Subject: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 01:54 PM

I'm a big Shane fan, joined the German fan club years ago, now Friends of Shane. However I know that many people, especially Irish, don't think much of him at all including my brother and a guy called Tommy Makem who said that "he has contibuted nothing to Irish music". I would be interested to hear what other Catters think, especially Irish, especially Tipperary, Shane's native County (tho he was born in England).

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:04 PM

They say that apathy/indifference is the worst possible of emotions... and that's how I feel about Shane... Couldn't possibly care any less about or for him...

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:13 PM

I never heard of him. Now I'm curious, who is he?

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:17 PM

The seriously ugly, once front guy for The Pogues... Couldn't sing his way out of a paper bag...

The perfect voice for celtic-punk music, the perfect face for radio...

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:29 PM

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM

Shane is definitely more sinner than saint, but equally surely he has made important contributions to Irish music. For those who don't know him, he's a London Irish punk musician turned folk musician. In the seventies he was with the punk band Nipple Erectors, which shortened its name to Nips to get radio airplay. In the eighties he formed Pogue Mahone, ("kiss my arse" in Irish) and once again changed the name to The Pogues. He eventually left the Pogues and joined the Popes.

I think to say Shane has contributed nothing to Irish music is ridiculous. Although he is a bad singer and a bad drinker and often an annoying lout, he has written some magnificent songs. Pair of Brown Eyes, Sally MacLennane, Fairytale of New York, The Broad Majestic Shannon, etc.

Weirdly, I believe that Shane wrote The Broad Majestic Shannon for Tommy Makem to sing, and that Tommy turned his nose up at it for some reason. There may be some kind of grudge at work; Shane may have insulted Tommy at some point; god knows he's insulted enough people.

I have to say I have walked out of gigs when Shane was too drunk to be of any use on stage, so I understand people's bitterness, but some of the songs are indelibly part of Irish music, covered by the likes of Christy Moore. What more do you need to be accorded a "contribution" to Irish music?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:42 PM

A chum of mine once knocked Shane out with a thrown bottle when the wanker shoed up 3 hours late for a gig and was too pissed to sing!

The *Whoonk* sound of that bottle connecting with toss-pots head reverberating over the mic is a sound I pray I'll never forget!

The bouncers at said gig carried my mate around on their shoulders to cheering all round for about half an hour!

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST,Winick
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 03:00 PM

Oops, I am at work and my cookie is on my computer at home. I wanted to identify myself as the author of the post giving info on Shane above--the one by an anonymous guest. But I'm really a member. Honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 03:38 PM

Id say it was the Pogues and especially SHane that turned me onto to Trad. Irish music. I think hes a great songwriter and singer as well. Its a shame he hits the sauce so much. I saw him here in Vancouver a few years ago with the popes, the sound was way too loud and you couldnt make out what he said or sang half the time he was so drunk. It was still a great show anyway. I owned every cd the Pogues put out and the Shane and the Popes cds as well, although I hardly listen to it now it certainly was an influence on me. IF Tommy Makem really said that it doesnt make a bit of difference because (IMHO it was bands like the Pogues that were responsible for the current popularity of Trad. Irish music and that cant be a bad thing. Sure some people are indifferent but Im indifferent about ClintonHammond too.

I still love some of his lyrics, "I could have been someone, well so could anyone, you took my dreams from me when I first found you. I kept them with me babe, I put them with my own, cant make it all alone.. I built my dreams around you."

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Grab
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM

Bad singer? Even to call him a singer is insulting! A BBC TV programme showed him recording a new song. He's "singing" along, and they're playing the actual song (produced, fiddles, guitars, the works) to you know how it sounds. Then they switch from playing the song against it to playing the recording of what he actually sounded like when he did it.

Cruel. There's no intonation, no shadings of the sound, he's basically just drawling the words out in a monotone, not even sounding like he's interested in it. Every single variation in his voice on the final song is pure post-production. God, even Bob Dylan puts some effort into it, but SMcG is just sat there mumbling.

The Pogues just happened to be in the right place to cash in on punk music, for which you didn't need to be able to sing or play particularly well, you just needed to be able to hit those strings hard, shout loud and get in fights! Sorry.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM

to each his own Grab, the beatles were in the right place at the right time too. Neil Young doesnt have a great voice either, or play guitar for that matter, so what does that mean

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM

I quite liked the early Pogues albums; the traditional stuff and Shane's original material. However, when I went to see them in concert, Shane was drunk, incoherent and abusive to the audience.

A year or two later, I read that the rest of the Pogues kicked him out of the band and went on without him. I've never heard the Popes, his later band.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Den
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:44 PM

Like him or loathe him the man is a poet and a brilliant song writer. I have to wonder sometimes when I look at him,its hard to appreciate that someone who looks and acts as he does can produce such hauntingly beautiful lyrics such as You're the one and The song with no name, to name just two. I think there's a touch of the Behan in him and in the main people just don't understand him. Den

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Big Tim
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:47 PM

Shane and the Popes made two albums, the first "The Snake" (1994)is excellent, as good as the early Pogues, the second "Crock of Gold" is pretty awful c&w flavoured stuff but with a couple of real gems also in there, like "Saint John of Gods" (an alcohol drying out place in Ireland, I think). Shane has serious psychological problems which causes him to drink ridiculous amounts and do all sorts of heavy drugs as well. However he makes heroic efforts to make it to gigs tho I've had tickets for three that he never showed for. To dismiss him as a drunk is too easy, he hasn't been sober since he was 14 (born 1957), we should just be damned glad our own problems aren't quite that serious.

Long live Shane, Up the Republic (as Shane always signs off). (Dario from Osijek, Croatia, are you out there?)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM

"we should just be damned glad our own problems aren't quite that serious."

BOLLOX ALLERT!!! BOLLOX ALLERT!!!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Greenbean
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:07 PM

Just saw Shane & the Popes in Portland a few mos. ago. It was kinda like watching a train wreck--like a sick fascination! I too think the man is a fine lyricist (although some things he writes are unholy unclean, which is part of the appeal, I suppose) but he sure looks like a living corpse. A particularly homely one. Still like him, tho', and I think some of his songs are haunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:51 PM

Well I don't see him as a Saint but... As others has noted, he has written some great songs. I seem to disagree with most comments here about his voice - sure it isn't great in the musical sense but I happen to like it and I think it suits his songs.

I'm surprised by the Tommy Maken remark as I beleive the Pogues did get a number of people who otherwise never would have listened to Irish music interested in the more traditional stuff.

I'm even more surpised to see Clinton typing "BOLLOX ALERT" when "Clinton Hammond" suffices.

Jon (who is damn glad his drink problems were never anything like as bad as Shane's)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:51 PM

One of my favorite Pogues stories came courtesy of an ex-girlfriend.

Apparently, at a Los Angeles Pogues show, the band started 45 minutes late - Shane hadn't arrived - then went on without him. After a while, he showed up onstage slobbering drunk, moaned incoherently into the mic for a song or two, passed out and was drug offstage.

To the credit of the band, they apologized and then ripped through a longish set of traditional instrumental that they spiced up a bit... my ex said that this show was what got her started on traditional.

I've heard horror stories of the "Shane McGowan and the Popes" shows - things that make me believe he's more GG Allin reincarnated than Behan. It all leaves me rather flat, to be honest. In my mind, all the songwriting talent in the world doesn't excuse extreme stupidity. I'll respect the man's work as a writer, and respect some of what he's recorded, but from what I've seen, read, and heard about the man I don't think I can respect HIM.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Stiofáin
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

Shane wrote some beautiful songs, including A Pair of Brown Eyes, Broad Majestic Shannon and Dark Streets of London. Not only have they opened the doors to trad. folk music for me, but they're still an important part of my life - really! And yes - he can sing. Just listen to the "If I Should Fall From Grace With God" album. Brilliant stuff. His approach to Irish music has become mine, so I get sick when I listen to arty over-trained singers who sound like "listen how great my technique is".

He is a sinner, definitely; a lout and an ignorant. I have just finished his freshly released biography "A Drink with SMG", and I have to say he's pushing it a bit too far in all directions... He's ridiculously overestimating his abilities and his constitution and this may be his downfall in the end. On the other hand, he's very straight and genuine, which are virtues that I adore very much. I noticed with great interest what he had to say about The Pogues and the reasons for his poor stage performances, but though I understand him better now, it doesn't explain why he's still such a lousy performer with his new band. Maybe he should stop doing gigs and write songs instead. And yes, he is some living corpse in a sense, and it grieves me to see him dying in a very slow way. It really does.

The Pogues are a different thing. Although I admire Shane's work very much, I have to say my two alltime favourite Pogues songs are NOT by Shane: Young Ned Of The Hill (Ron Kavanagh/Terry Woods) and Misty Morning, Albert Bridge by Jem Finer, both appearing on the Peace & Love album, which is relatively poor apart from these two songs.

Anyway, Shane's a great song-writer and (on album) a great singer. Forget about his stage appearance - performing is definitely not a thing that he likes to do.

Greetings, Stiofáin

P.S. Somebody mentioned "The Snake" would be better than "Crock of Gold". Although you are of course free to judge this way, I guess that you have missed what Shane's up to with his music. The Crock is definitely the better album by far; the track "Mother Mo Chroi" is worth the album alone. A brilliant song, one of his best ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 05:34 AM

To claim indifference as Clinton Hammond does and then launch into a vitriolic attack is a bit of a cheap trick. If your friend really did bottle Shane and get paraded around like a hero – which I very much doubt – then he's just a sad loser.

I appreciate that his habit of not showing for gigs (or turning up completely shitfaced) is irritating, but I would argue that he really shouldn't be playing gigs and touring at all. For a man cursed with his proclivities, that whole rock'n'roll circus is just a greasy pole. (Although I'm not sure that staying at home is such a good idea either. I've seen the liggers swarming around him in Filthy's, buying him drinks (like he needed their charity, who are they kidding?) just to get some sort of buzz from being in the presence of "celebrity".)

There was a period when the Pogues were one of the best punk bands and one of the best folk bands on the planet. Then it all started to go wrong because Shane started putting too much energy into self-destruction and not enough into the band. He lost commitment and lost touch with his songwriting ability. There was still some evidence of it on Peace and Love (e.g. White City). But by Hell's Ditch he was empty. (Five Green Queens and Jean? Too many e's, Shane!)

And then the Pogues "kicked him out". It was inevitable that they would implode. But ditching Shane was not a bright career move. Like it or lump it, Shane was the epicentre of the Pogues and his departure showed that any musical outfit needs a musical director, a focal point. Without him they disappeared without trace.

The Popes' stuff showed that Shane was back on form. The first Popes' album was a gem, but the Crock Of Gold was distilled Shane MacGowan. It didn't get a very warm reception at the time and is now viewed by many as a footnote in the Shane story. But I think a few people missed the point. This was Shane showing the world the lie that underpins the Hollywood/stage-Oirish myth of the Emerald Isle as a mighty place altogether, where the little brooks bubble and there's a hundred thousand welcomes offered from each whitewashed cottage in each sheltered glen. Shane shows that it's not all Glocka-bloody-morra … there's a great deal of the Sodom and Gomorrah in the Irish experience as well. It's an album full of "rub-yer-nose-in-it" material, where Shane takes the point of view of the misfit and the malcontent.

Saint or sinner? Neither … but I reckon I know whose side he's on!

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:18 AM

Clinton Hammond,

In what way do you think a violent act against a clearly ill man (before you start, most reasonable people do recognise addiction as an illness) is justifiable, never mind a cause for celebration. There is far too much violence in this world already, without thinking you can bottle someone just because they've pissed you off.

With regards to Shane - a fine songwriter and when capable (which sadly is often not the case)he has a voice which suits the songs. When I first heard the Pogues emerging out of all the commercial pop crap of the 1980s, it was a revelation to me, that eventually took me to all kind of interesting musical places.

Brian

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:41 AM

As an old codger and a long time listening to Folk music I would rather sit with the toothache than listen to Shane. People have their own ideas about Folk but in all my time listening in various venues I never came across anyone who emphasised their singing in a snarling nasty way. He aint for me. I`m ducking Derrymacash. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: English Jon
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:58 AM

Hmmmm... Interesting thoughts. I think he's done a lot for English music, coming as he does from Kilburn. ;) Seriously, I think it's fair to say that his writing is part of the tradition of Irish balladry - urban context obviously due to personal experience. Technique-wise, yes he's a rotten singer, but more entertaining than a lot of others, for example, in Irish Rover, Shane (IMHO) sounds a lot better than bloke from dubliners (name escapes me at the moment), Similarly, Fariytale of New York is great until Kirsty McColl (dearly missed) starts to sing. I don't think she really got the point of the song - sounds to me like she's treating it as a jolly xmas sing-a-long, which really it isn't.

Grab makes an interesting point.

"The Pogues just happened to be in the right place to cash in on punk music, for which you didn't need to be able to sing or play particularly well, you just needed to be able to hit those strings hard, shout loud and get in fights!"

This is precisely the Image that went with punk. Having said that, I can't think of too many succesful punk bands who couldn't actually play rather well.

To whit: Stiff Little Fingers, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys, Lard, Dickies, Clash, Anti-Nowhere League, Toy dolls etc.

If you want further proof, go and learn how to play the Kennedy's "Holiday in Cambodia" -

The same is true of the Pogues. The music is better crafted than you might think at first hearing. The arrangements were very tight, certainly on record. Never seen them live, though, so I can't comment on that.

Interesting thread.

EJ

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:43 AM

Well I like 'im. Anyone who can come up with the inspired lyrics of "Donegal Express" gets my vote. I like his voice, I like the energy of the music, and I like his songs. So there! (Anyone read "Ripley Bogle"? That book cries out for a soundtrack by Shane. If books could have soundtracks. They do in my head.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: IanC
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:07 AM

Never 'eard of the bloke. Was 'e in "The White Heather Club"?

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: SDShad
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 12:26 PM

Saint or Sinner?

Yes. :-)

When I first heard of the Pogues, I'd already been listening to punk since about 1980, and Irish trad. since about 1983. They were described to me as "the Sex Pistols meet the Dubliners," and I thought: "that's for me!" Mind you, I've not actually ever been a fan of the Pistols, as they struck me as being all marketing on MacLaren's part and no actual talent. But the Clash's "London Calling" had opened me up to the possibilities of punk, and frankly the musicianship on that album was impeccable. There is a stereotype, and I'd even go so far as to call it a cultural prejudice, that no punk player can actually play worth a damn. The Clash (and the Pogues, to get back on target) belie that prejudice. Both are very tight bands.

With the Pogues, the underpinning of a talented band juxtoposed with a wild, unpredictable, rough-and-ready vocalist made for at least two albums worth of incredible music. I was hooked by the mad energy of "Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash," but what really impressed me was the beauty and lyrical worth of much of "If I Should Fall From Grace With God": the title track, "Broad Majestic Shannon," and especially "Turkish Song of the Damned" and "Fairytale of New York," which paradoxically is heart-breakingly beautiful because of, not in spite of, the roughness and imperfection of Shane's singing. And I've got to disagree about Kirsty MacColl on this song: she snarls right back at Shane, which is just the right tone for this song, it's just that her voice is much prettier. God bless Christy Moore for introducing this song to a broader audience who might never give the Pogues a second thought because of preconceived notions of what the label "punk" means, but I'll take the original, thanks.

"Turkish Song of the Damned," on the other hand, might well be playable in a more traditional manner, but with its wild energy still intact.

So, would I want to hang out with Shane, or for him to marry my daughter? Certainly not. Far too many demons, far too much chaos. Does listening to his music carry me away into its world and its stories, the way all great music does? Certainly yes. I will still be listening to the Pogues with delight and astonishment when I'm ambling around in my walker at the home, 50 years from now....

Chris

Subject: Shane responds
From: GUEST,who knows Shane McGowan personally
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 12:58 PM

I told Shane they were talking about him at Mudcat and that he was provoking contrasting responses. He said, "tell my fans I don't give a shit," and said to tell his detractors "to all take a flying fuck off the nearest cliff."

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 01:03 PM

You guys want some cheese with your whine?!?!?!

Believe what you want, but my chum did bottle him, and got carried around like a hero... he may be a 'sad looser' but he's a sad looser with great aim and a lot of folks who were grateful for what he did... after paying that much money and standing and waiting for so long... to be screwed around by an asshole drunk who didn't care one way or another...

I'll say it again...

"Whoonk!"

"oh... I was late because I'm a drunk..." whine, whine, piss, moan... intoxication is not a defence!

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 01:45 PM

Clinton, thanks for intoducing me to the phrase "bollocks alert". I like it and in future whenever I see it I'll think of you.

Guest, this talk might introduce more people to Shane's music thereby earning him some more money to invest in the FTSE! (The Dow in America).

Derrymacash, very well put I would have to agree with most off it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST,Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 02:17 PM

Ummm... Tim... I believe the quote yer aiming for was "Bollox Allert"... If yer gonna plagerise, at least spell it right!

LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 03:00 PM

I think Shane Mcgawon is ok, some of the best singers I know are drunks but they are still good singers.As for him being ugly, well think youself lucky you aint seen me yet , my teeth are more rotten than his and I was once offered a job as a scarecrow!

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Big Tim
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 03:44 PM

"May the ghost that howls from haunted graves [Irish Famine victims?], never bring you misery, may you all sleep tight down in hell tonight, or wherever you may be" (Shane MacGowan)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM

Clinton ...

Tell you what, matey. I gather you're an aspiring "folk terrorist" (now there's bollox for you!) Well, when you've sold as many records as Shane has and had plaudits from as many renowned folk artists as he has, rather than just playing to your mates down your local bar, then I think your criticisms may carry some weight.

Till then ... and I reckon we'll be waiting a while ... I suggest that crab suas is in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 04:38 PM

Oh... I never said he wasn't successful... Just goes to show you that any idiot can make money off people... And more power to him... but he's not getting any more of my $$... that one no-show was more than enough for me...

And well, if we can only critique people on the same level as us, then we can't critique anyone... And my intention as never to critique... I was sharing opinion, same as everyone else here... and it's to be valued as much as everyone else's opinion, which is to say, it's not worth a tinkers fart really...

Like what ya like... hate what ya hate... and don't expect anyone else to agree or care...

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM

Hello All, do you mind if I tiptoe past the flying boots, Clinton I said I didnt like Shane, thats a hell of a long way from hating the man, I must introduce you to my wife, Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: Shane
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 05:43 PM

Slan?? huh? I don't get it... Your wife?

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Stiofáin
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:17 PM

I think the way Shane is being degraded in this thread is simply unfair. He and his band(s) have rendered an outstanding service to contemporary Irish music and the fact that his music has been repeatedly performed and recorded by Christy Moore, who is undoubtedly beyond criticism of this kind, just how brilliant his works are. Alcohol is btw more incorporated in some folk heroes' works than the politically (morally) correct of you will want to see.

Just imagine Christy Moore's "Delirium Tremens". Christy definitely knows of what he sings. The man once said in an interview alcohol is still "part of his system".

Also, you should simply accept Shane's complicated personality, and if you don't like his gigs, stay away. There are quite a number of very difficult personalities among the more outstanding artisans. Just think of Van Morrison, who happens to be one of Shane's drinking companions btw. It is reported in Shane's book that once he had a hard time picking a completly pis**d Van up from some hotel bar floor. Imagine this, a task for a titan

Cheers, Stiofáin

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:13 AM

Clinton ...

I have no beef about what you think of Shane MacGowan's music or musical ability. What I do have a problem with is the fact that you consider it a good thing for some hallion to chuck a bottle at him.

Criticise his, or anybody else's music as much as you like, but start advocating or condoning violence against performers and you've already lost whatever point you might have made.

Slan (but no beannacht)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: lady penelope
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 04:57 AM

How is Shane being degraded by the posts in this thread? Shane has done all the degrading previously! The man is what he is. I have no idea what kind of writer/ muscian he'd have been if he hadn't gone down the path of self destruction, maybe the attitude that took him there is what makes his work as good as it is. Who knows? As the song says " I'm a rambler,I'm a gambler, I'm a long ways from home and if you don't like me, well leave alone....."

To me he's a conu.. connum.... an enigma.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Stiofáin
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 06:27 AM

He is degraded by questioning his abilities as a song writer and the quality of his material on the basis of attacking his lifestyle. At least, this was the point I was trying to make: You may not like his personality, his live performance, his drinking and even his singing - no problem, but it's unfair jumping to shallow conclusions concerning his song writing because of that.

Cheers, Stiofáin

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Fiolar
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 06:59 AM

I wonder how people with talent manage to piss it away against the wall or stuff their veins with poison. Dylan Thomas, Brendan Behan, Jim Morrison, et al and of course MacGowan. I never had much time for the Pogues and MacGowan myself as I felt that coming on stage pissed out of his skull was an insult to the people who had paid good money to see him. Does he really think that that headful of tombstones he calls teeth are attractive to people? Incidentally the Observer newspaper colour magazine had an interesting article on him a few weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:10 AM

I fail to see how the state of his teeth have any bearing on his abilities as a performer.

John (With similar teeth to Mr Mcgawon)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:13 AM

How?

It's easy.

Performance is the biggest drug I've ever run across.

To be on the stage... to have the bright lights, the crowd, the nights that you feel on...

And then having to walk off stage. Questioning yourself. Questioning whether it could be better. Not knowing how long you have until those crowds go away... no knowing whether they already have in their minds, and you're just missing it.

Throw in the constant moving... the inconvenience (at first) of not being able to stay in one place for long, as you need to keep touring to make the money to live... an inconvenience that in the end becomes all you remember, all you know how to do...

Combine that with the horde of people around you whom are all more than willing to supply you with any number of poisons while you're 'up', and the constant knowledge that all of those 'friends' will desert you the moment you start to head 'down' in popularity... but you don't know where or who your real friends are, because maybe one or two of the ones you thought were 'real' are just along for the ride as well...

It's a hell of a life. I've been lucky enough to not get stuck headfirst in THAT particular toilet.

I've just been close enough to know that I'd do just about anything to do it again.

THAT is what drives 'em all to self destruction. It's not a life for a sane human, but dear God... what a whirlwind it is while it lasts.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:20 AM

PS. I always try to judge people by their achievements not the state of their teeth, size of their arse, shoe size or any other irrelavent personal characteristics.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM

I don't think "celebrity" is the cause of Shane's excessive drinking, after all he has been drinking, according to Victoria, his wife, since he was eight years old.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:52 AM

If my mate hadn'ta done it, I woulda!

Feel about that how ever you want... it won't matter a tinkers fart to me...

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 05:18 PM

OK folks. Personally I think Shane's pretty talented, that's much is obvious. I think Clinton's a mindless thug for condoning his mate's violence against anyone, let alone a pretty frail bloke, and now he's shown himself to be a complete tosspot for saying he would do likewise. Brave man, Mr Hammond! Do you always pick on such soft targets?

Anyway enough of this bollox ... let's compare musical talent with musical talent. At Clinton's website there is an example of "folk terrorism" (ha bloody ha) - a rendition of "Heel-ya-hoe" - that oul' nursery rhyme my da used to "terrorise" us children to sleep with. Check it out and compare Clinton's work with Shane MacGowan's! Verdict to this thread.

Click here

(PS the file seems to be a bit corrupt, not unlike Mr Hammond himself, I didn't get very far playing it direct from his site, but I downloaded it and got to hear about 15 seconds or so. I won't be buying the album, Clint!)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 08:04 PM

oooooohhh... waaaaaahhh... a crappy recording done for CBC AM radio, on a shoestring budget and a head cold won't get me sold... What ever shall I do?!?!?!?!

"Heel-ya-Hoe"? Last time I check, it was called The Mingulay Boat Song... keep yer "Hoe's" to yerself...

I always wanted to be known as a thug...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 10:54 PM

Don't worry about Clinton, folks. He just likes attention and gets it by acting this way.

My opinion, for whatever the hell it is worth, is that this is a tragic figure with a great deal of talent in the area of lyric writing. I love many of his lyrics, but I won't invest any strong feelings on him. This is due to his performance at the Guinness Fleadh a few years ago. It was the first one held in the States on Randall's Island. I decided to to hop a plane and go. Ton of great music. I think it was Saturday night I saw Shane. I stood in that tent all day to see him and you know what I saw. A man so drunk that he couldn't stand let alone sing. He was saved from falling off the stage by his bandmates. I was told by someone that he pissed himself, and the last I saw of him he was sick behind the stage. Decided then and there that I wouldn't go across the street to see him again. Anyone who had so little regard for the people who went to a great deal of trouble to see him................well, I feel sorry for him.........obviously sick and in need of something.............but I just don't have time. But..............I will still sing his lyrics, because he tells a great yarn.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 04:22 AM

Tragic figure......such a waste......Fairytale of New York, Pair of Brown Eyes, Old Main Drag, Wildcats of Kilkenny, so much talent and soul in his music....better voice than Dylan.....no one deserves a bottle winged at their head no matter what their human failings.....that's not something to be cheered, that's grotesque.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 05:16 AM

Clinton ...

So, you've always wanted to be known as a thug? Yet another fascinating insight into your mind! In my experience there are those who are thugs and those that aren't. Didn't realise there was a category of person stalking the earth who wished they fell into the former category (but presumably feel they belong to the latter). Well, I've got news for you, Clinton, if you WISH to be a thug, then you ARE one. Wear the badge with pride! Some thugs I've known (and I've had the bad fortune to come across a few!) have met with a sticky end ... live by the sword, die by it and all that. But I forget, Clinton's a "sword for hire" and so would know all about that!

So Clinton, you've earned the title thug. Any others you can lay claim to?

Well you've also proved that you're intolerant of minorities with your "tinker's fart" comment above. Since you're sufficiently knowledgeable about Irish music to feel that you have a right to make comment about Shane MacGowan's music, then you'll also be aware of the outstanding contribution made by travelling people to Irish music (one of the few fields of human endeavour where travellers have been given an opportunity by the settled community). The Dorans, Finbar Furey, Paddy Keenan, The Pecker, Margaret Barry to name just a few. In that one careless remark you've demonstrated that as well as being a thug, you're a racist.

Oh, less importantly, you've proved that you're not much of a hand at being a self-publicist. That link to your band's version of "Mingulay Boat Song"! Not a bad song - as I said above I have fond memories of being lulled to sleep with this as a child. But not only is the file corrupt, now we have Clinton weighing in and dissing the song himself. But, hang on! Didn't Clinton post the link to his web page? So doesn't that demonstrate that he thinks it's pretty good? So now if he's changed his mind couldn't he just whip it off?

Clinton would like to lay claim to the title folk terrorist. Well we don't have much evidence to work on here. Just the recording of MBS mentioned above. Hmmm! Don't know if you've come across many people who might consider themselves "folk terrorists". I can think of one or two myself (Big Tom McManamon might fall into that category, Black 47 perhaps?). The thing is I can't for the life of me see any self-respecting folk terrorist trying to build a reputation on the basis of a pleasant little lullaby. Sorry Clinton, but if you're going to convince the world that you are a folk terrorist, then you're going to have to come up with a body of work that causes people to take notice, to make them challenge their preconceptions!

I remember seeing The Dubliners once in the Royal Festival Hall. The place was rammed. In between every song some eejit kept hollering. Eventually Ronnie'd had enough. He asked the lighting technician to put a spot on the offender so he could "... see if the rest of him's as big as his mouth". A careful read of Clinton's posts in this thread and a visit to his website proves that the rest of him is very definitely much smaller than his mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 05:55 AM

Great songs he has written and sung
Drink is his undoing and I would not pay to see him humiliate himself in public
I like a drink myself and there have been times when I liked too many drinks. How difficult it must be to not get hooked when you are singing in pubs from an early age and when an appreciative audience buys you drinks.
Great songs, interesting voice
That reminds me was it Shanes singing used on an advert here in the UK a few years back - a haunting snippet of she moved through the fair?

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST,Roger
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 07:06 AM

guardian articles here

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Stiofáin
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 12:05 PM

Just wanted to back derrymacash in his little fight with Clinton.

There's nothing I could add to your remarks, derry. 'Nuff said.

Oh, and I won't be bothered to comment Clinton's musical works, yet I can't help but to hope he will make the acquaintance of a flying bottle on stage some day... and I doubt his teeth will be looking any better than Shane's afterwards!

Stiofáin

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 05:43 PM

What makes you think it hasn't already happened? Good reason to not be so blind drunk and obnoxious on stage to the point where you piss your fans off to the point where they DO heave shit at you... if yer not too loaded, you can see it coming and move out of the way...

"the rest of him is very definitely much smaller than his mouth."

A) You should see the size of my liver!

B) If you wanna drop this to a school yard level, that's not what your mother said!

You two are funny... letting a total stranger rile you to the point where you feel the need to post at lenght like that! Keep it up eh! The entertainment value alone is fantastic!

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: SeanM
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM

Y'know, there are SEVERAL petty and vicious little flame threads running right now... how 'bout moving the fight over there, and letting the conversation continue here?

M

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:04 AM

Clinton obviously can't counter the facts that he is a thug (advocating violence against fellow musicians), uses language that is abusive to a minority group (What's your views on Native Americans, Blacks, Hispanics and other minorities in your homeland KKKlinton? Would you use similar derogatory language about them?) and aspires to a title "folk terrorist" to which there is little evidence he's likely to lay claim.

If other people think I'm overreacting then feel free to let me know and I'll give Clint free rein to say whatever he likes unchecked.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: SeanM
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:24 AM

Well I guess not.

For anyone not flaming, it seems that we've reached a (somewhat) consensus that MacGowan's a gifted songwriter, but probably needs to stay off the stage.

I don't know if that's actually possible - the stage has a strong draw. It takes a very strong person to stay away once they're started, and unfortunately Shane, by virtue of what he's put forth as 'performance', probably doesn't have the kind of stregnth it takes.

Opinions?

M

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:51 AM

SeanM

I tipped Big Tim off that this thread would polarise opinion! However I think you're right, the consensus is much as you've stated.

Personally, although I've weighed in on this thread as an ardent supporter, I have to say that it's a long time since I've considered him a viable live performer. It's no longer his milieu and it's a sad indictment of the rock'n'roll industry that they continue to push him in this direction. (Having said that, I really don't think the guy is going to be giving too many live performances in this lifetime.)

I'd say listen to the albums – the first three Pogues' albums to remind yourself how they matured as a band and "The Snake" and "The Crock Of Gold" to hear how Shane, operating in self-aware mode, got to the essence of his world-view. The latter album in particular may not be comfortable listening, but is the (more truthful) alter-ego of "If I Should Fall's" (relative) polish and sophistication.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Fiolar
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:25 AM

In one of the British newspaper Observer's supplements of July 15th 2001, Shane was asked why he drank, replied, "I don't drink to get drunk. I drink to stay calm and relaxed and able to deal with people that annoy me." So now you know. I suppose you can't get more relaxed than flat on the floor.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:44 PM

This thread lasted longer than I thought (and when Clinton wakes up it may not be finished yet!). Thanks folks and thanks Shane.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Aidan Crossey
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:08 PM

Wasn't it on "Down In The Ground Where The Dead Men Go" that Shane said ironically "... the compliments pass when the quality meet"? Well the compliments have certainly passed tonight ... you should see the lovely personal message I got from another prominent contributor to this thread.

I'll spare you the detail.

Shane may be a bit of a lout but he's got a few matches among his detractors.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM

This English Language study site in Germany, regarding Irish Literature, considers him a poet to be listed with the likes of Wilde and Yeats. And considering the site also includes the alcoholics, Brendan Behan and Flann O'Brien, he is in good company that way also.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: poor lonesome boy
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:54 PM

this thread kills me! It's funny to think that Shane, who none of us has ever met ('cept that one who says he's a "close personal friend") has created such a fuss in the ol' Mudcat. Clinton, I'm with you. Let's bonk a few of us with bottles. Maybe we'll wake up to what we're doing here... just @#%^&ing around, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: SeanM
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 09:14 PM

There've been a few performers who've gone down the 'maybe you should reconsider getting on that stage tonight...' path...

My thoughts should be pretty obvious from the above - I don't think it's a simple choice of 'play or don't play'. Having been on stage in front of moderate and somewhat disinterested festival crowds, I can just imagine what it's like to have a crowd of fans waiting for you. I don't know if *I* would have it in me to walk away from that - regardless of the damage it was doing to me - so I don't really know if I'm qualified to come down on someone else for the same.

But as to MacGowan being one of the "Great Poets"...

That's a question that will likely be argued for years to come, until the question answers itself. Many 'popular' figures get put through this same mill... for some reason, Jim Morrison comes to mind. Morrison, though, may not make it through as a 'great poet'. Both his detractors and supporters seem to be fewer the longer time goes on, and the focus shifts back to the band he came from.

That, I think, is what will eventually determine how 'history' sees MacGowan. How well his lyrics stand up long after he's gone, and whether the lyrics function well outside of the music that the Pogues created along with it. I think he's got a chance. Out here in California, I don't know a single 'Pub Band' that doesn't have at least one or two MacGowan originals in their lineup.

But, time will tell. For a while, you couldn't heave a brick in LA without hitting at least 15 Morrison impersonators.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Shane MacGowan: saint or sinner?
From: GUEST,Marc B
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 10:19 AM

Great song writer, I don't think anyone can take that from him. As for the bottle that was thrown. What are the chances that was less of a statement, and more just one of those stupid things that punks thought was cool. It seems to me that when I was checking out the punk thing, 20 odd years ago. That kind of stupid shit happened all the time, in both directions, Audience->Band, Band->Audience. Thats why bars started selling beer in cans instead of bottles around here.