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Dear Joe Offer et al

Lighthouse 65 13 Jul 01 - 09:42 PM
Shields Folk 13 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM
SINSULL 13 Jul 01 - 10:15 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Jul 01 - 10:21 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 01 - 10:40 PM
katlaughing 13 Jul 01 - 10:46 PM
GUEST,Socrates 13 Jul 01 - 11:12 PM
Jeri 13 Jul 01 - 11:13 PM
Sorcha 13 Jul 01 - 11:22 PM
mg 13 Jul 01 - 11:25 PM
GUEST,khandu 14 Jul 01 - 12:30 AM
Max 14 Jul 01 - 12:36 AM
Lighthouse 65 14 Jul 01 - 12:50 AM
Clinton Hammond 14 Jul 01 - 02:00 AM
Mudlark 14 Jul 01 - 02:44 AM
Sourdough 14 Jul 01 - 03:06 AM
Lighthouse 65 14 Jul 01 - 06:48 AM
SeanM 14 Jul 01 - 07:21 AM
nutty 14 Jul 01 - 07:40 AM
Jim Dixon 14 Jul 01 - 12:25 PM
Bill D 14 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 01 - 01:47 PM
Pseudolus 14 Jul 01 - 02:03 PM
Amos 14 Jul 01 - 02:12 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM
clansfolk 14 Jul 01 - 03:25 PM
Lonesome EJ 14 Jul 01 - 04:29 PM
Lonesome EJ 14 Jul 01 - 04:42 PM
Art Thieme 14 Jul 01 - 06:29 PM
thosp 14 Jul 01 - 07:07 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 01 - 07:09 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 01 - 08:48 PM
Big Mick 14 Jul 01 - 11:02 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 01 - 11:12 PM
Big Mick 14 Jul 01 - 11:16 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 01 - 11:20 PM
Big Mick 14 Jul 01 - 11:24 PM
CarolC 14 Jul 01 - 11:31 PM
Edmund 14 Jul 01 - 11:42 PM
mousethief 15 Jul 01 - 12:20 AM
CarolC 15 Jul 01 - 12:32 AM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 01 - 12:34 AM
katlaughing 15 Jul 01 - 12:55 AM
mousethief 15 Jul 01 - 01:01 AM
Joe Offer 15 Jul 01 - 01:46 AM
mousethief 15 Jul 01 - 01:57 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 15 Jul 01 - 02:16 AM
Mary in Kentucky 15 Jul 01 - 02:38 AM
mousethief 15 Jul 01 - 02:45 AM
mousethief 15 Jul 01 - 02:47 AM
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Subject: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:42 PM

Joe Offer and others - you really lost me on this thread. Here someone asks for a bit of help for a defenseless baby and all you guys do is go off on a tangent about the word prayer. Get over it! Just a place for music? Have you checked the majority of your threads lately? Joe Offer has gone down 100% with his lack of humanity on this one!


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Shields Folk
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM

there are a million other kids out there. lets pray for them all. one at a time.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:15 PM

Joe does not need my defense. His work on the Mudcat and generous offer of help anywhere anytime speaks for itself.

Lighthouse, I think you may be fairly new here. Joe was not objecting to prayer or praying for this baby. And "lack of humanity" is just not one of his faults, in fact that particular accusation is downright humorous.

He was simply reminding us of discussions that have arisen before concerning requests for support and prayer. If each of us placed a thread everytime we were in trouble, the Forum would be filled with such and this is a music forum. For example, in the past two months my father (88) underwent major surgery, a friend in her twenties lost her husband ON HER HONEYMOON, my greatnephew was born with pneumonia and has spent 10 days in an ICU, I delivered and tube fed a litter of kittens and 3 of 6 died, my brother divorced as did my niece, my son was released from probation and given the choice to leave a drug rehab...Shall I go on? Each of these events could have easily triggered a Help Me thread - that makes six for Mary. Instead, I PMd people I knew and asked for support. They in turn PMd others.
If my son had chosen to leave rehab, I might have put in a separate thread. Some events require an active support group or the knowledge of many of the people here. The Spaw Surgery threads are an example.

The other issue is that at times requests for prayer have turned into unpleasant discussions that come down to "my prayer is better than yours". I offered my support on the "baby" thread as did others. One person posted that he/she did not pray but would send blessings. In the past, a simple statement like that has led to some ugliness and that discussion also took up space on the Mudcat.

Max does not censor topics, discussions, etc. as a rule. Post any topic you choose and more than likely it will get a response or two or three. You have that right. Joe is asking that you think through the appropriateness and value of your post.

rankly, I am torn about posting to this thread. As I stated in the beginning Joe Offer does not need any defense.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:21 PM

Don't ever accuse Joe of lacking humanity.  He's one of the kindest, most decent people I've had the good fortune to come across in more than two years as a regular here.  I do realise that, as a newcomer, you may not understand that.  Please refrain from making such judgements until you know a little more about the place and how it works.


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Subject: Prayer and Healing Threads
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:40 PM

Lighthouse, I sympathize with the baby and the family, but that's not the issue. I realize that many of you who are new don't recall the last controversy we had about all this, back in 1999. Click here for an example. The person who started the "family in pain" thread admits that she doesn't know the family that was involved, but yet the thread generated all sorts of expressions of sympathy for her and everybody else. This same person started a thread last week because her sister's dog got lost and later was found, and yet another thread a few days ago because she's been having trouble with her children. I wonder what her children would think if they knew what she had said about them on the Internet.
The person who started the prayer request today isn't one who regularly starts such threads, but neither does the person seem to be very closely related to the child. If the person were a parent of the child, then expressions of concern and sympathy or whatever would be quite appropriate. If the person mentions the sad situation in the course of another discussion, that might certainly be appropriate. I don't question the seriousness of any of these situations - what I question is the practice of using a Mudcat thread to solicit prayers or healing or whatever. What is does is make a serious situation into a chain letter event, and I think that's just shallow sentimentality.
I think we should save our sympathy for the people we know - they're the ones who can benefit most from it. Sympathy for strangers is sterile, safe, and empty. You can do it with cut-and-paste, if you like, but does it really mean anything? Wouldn't it be better to visit a sick friend and spend a good amount of time with him or her, not just a cursory courtesy visit?
I'm not unfeeling. People who deal with me in person say I'm very sympathetic. However, I am opposed to the use of Mudcat for chain-letter healing and prayer threads for strangers. It cheapens things that should be thought of as serious situations, and I think that's deplorable.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:46 PM

Why don't you just name names, Joe, it's no mystery you are talking about me.

The thread where I asked for help for myself, is the first time I've ever done that here. I do not have to justify that to you or anyone else. What I can say is the support it generated for me and the time I am going through has been real. There is nothing shallow about it, including all of the phone calls, emails, and PM's I've received as well as real, physical offers of help.

You are belittling the community we've built here with your personal abhorence for what I am and do. Too bad you didn't answer my PM and insisted on keeping it in the threads.

kat


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,Socrates
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:12 PM




I ask you both, "Does your karma suitya?"


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:13 PM

Oh for Pete's sake!


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:22 PM

It's started again.......oh crap. I was almost certain it would. Friends, we DID agree to keep it to e mail and PM.....perhaps the new ones don't know that, but they should by now, at least this time around.

Nothing against anybody personally here; I am just sick of the intercine warfare. Think I'll go away and just lurk for a while til this is over.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mg
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:25 PM

I think as a list manager you have every right to say I don't want this or that kind of post and take action if you see them.

I strongly disagree with your take on this though, referring to you as not a list manager but as a regular member. My personal opinion is that this certainly has nothing to do with spam or chain letters, and doesn't conflict with praying for those nearer and dearer. I don't see how it could be anything but helpful (minus a few kooks who could hijack anything for selfish purposes.) I do see how someone could see it doesn't really apply to music, or that objects of the requests are not closely enough related or something like that, but in general, I think they are very valuable. you have people around the world praying for a little baby. What is the harm?

mg


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:30 AM

"Joe Offer needs no defense." Amen to that. I disagree with his statements that prompted this less-than-civil thread. But, Joe is a compassionate, good man.

khandu


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Max
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:36 AM

OH, FREEDOM

Oh, freedom, Oh, freedom,
Oh freedom over me.
And before I'd be a slave
I'd be buried in my grave
And go home to my Lord and be free.

No more moanin' etc.

No more weepin' etc.

No more shootin' etc.

There'll be singing etc.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:50 AM

Then how is it that a thread titled Non Music Erection gets laughs while simple prayer causes an uproar? That doesnt make sense.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:00 AM

this place is funny!

:-)


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Mudlark
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:44 AM

There is a glitch in human beings, Koestler called it "the ghost in the machine." I don't spend a lot of time on forums but I've not seen one yet that didn't revert to this sort of thing sooner or later....this is such a great place to come and hang out, glean fabulous information, bask in the reflected glow of the brighter lights of folk music, have a few laughs. It seems so simple to avoid threads that put one off, for any reason, and enjoy all the rest.....maybe I'm missing something.....


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Sourdough
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 03:06 AM

Lighthouse 65, Welcome to Mudcat.

Mudcat thrives on new people coming and bringing new ideas and interests tinto the group. I hope that you find a lot to enjoy here. There are unusually fine and caring people who have gathered on this site.

No one could expect that a person with a week's experience with Mudcat (at least since your first post) would be aware of some of the issues that have been discussed at great length here or of the personalities, what individuals do, how they live, their values, etc.

If you are interested enough to follow through, reread what Joe O wrote. He's been very careful to say what it is he means and I don't see a lack of compasion in his statements. Of course, I do have the advantage of having seen a couple year's worth of posts in which he shows very clearly that he is someone with a great capacity for caring and someone who tries very hard to live up to his ideals.

Once again, welcome to Mudcat.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 06:48 AM

Sourdough - I am not new to Mudcat. Only my name is new - previously The Lighthouse but my cookie would not allow me to continue with that name for a reset hence the new name. I have been here for quite some time and have read many many many a post. I've seen many buttons pushed here between Catters and always stay out of it. This time I decided not to.

Here's a quote from Joe : I think we should save our sympathy for the people we know - they're the ones who can benefit most from it. Sympathy for strangers is sterile, safe, and empty. You can do it with cut-and-paste, if you like, but does it really mean anything? Wouldn't it be better to visit a sick friend and spend a good amount of time with him or her, not just a cursory courtesy visit? I'm not unfeeling. People who deal with me in person say I'm very sympathetic. However, I am opposed to the use of Mudcat for chain-letter healing and prayer threads for strangers. It cheapens things that should be thought of as serious situations, and I think that's deplorable. -Joe Offer-

Like I've posted before - what is the big deal about prayer/ Plenty of threads that come through can be deemed as offensive yet no one puts up a fight about anything, yet if you mention the word prayer it gets so many up in arms. What's "deplorable" is even having the discusiion that we are having now. others have posted that isn't the point - sorry but it is. A young baby boy is in serious health problems and all some around here are worried about are their own virgin eyes seeing the word "prayer" being mentioned. Where are they when the vulgar stuff appears? Why aren't they offended then? That's what I find puzzling and a bit troubling.

Mudcat has been used over and over and over for nonmusical purposes. I don't see any problem with someone asking for a little 'help" in the way of prayer for a little helpless boy who needs it. Why do you?


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:21 AM

Joe et al?

I's seen pics of the man. He ain't et al in a while. Et SOME, maybe. On a good day, et most, possibly. Pro'lly could use some meat on his bones anyway.

Et al, though? Dunno.

M


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: nutty
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:40 AM

How about a little give and take fellas???

This is a difference of opinion and as such is not likely to be resolved - what's done is done

For my part , I'm on Joe's side - He was my first contact at Mudcat and I've always found him to be caring, concerned and courteous, and after all, he doesn't get paid for the hours he puts into Mudcat.
500,000 posts and he's probably read every one - well I'm prepared to rely on his judgement as I believe he is eminently qualify to make the decision.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:25 PM

Bravo, Joe Offer! Your post echoes many of my thoughts.

The Internet is a fine place for exchanging information and opinions but it is a poor substitute for friendship.

I have seen people ask for "hugs" in these threads, and I have seen others reply, "((((((((hug))))))))" -- and I must admit, I marvel at this. I think, why do they even bother? Assuming ANY kind of hug would really help, wouldn't it be a lot better to ask a REAL friend for a REAL hug?

While I admire several Mudcatters for their wisdom, knowledge, helpfulness, and humor (Joe is one of them), I don't think of any of them as friends. I find it hard to think of anyone as a friend that I have never met face to face.

I assume a lot of you HAVE met one another, maybe even frequently, and maybe that accounts for much of the apparent intimacy that I sometimes stumble upon in these threads. But frankly, I find it a little embarrassing -- sort of like walking into a room at a party and finding a couple making out. At least the thread format allows me to escape without anyone noticing I've been there!

But it's less embarrassing than puzzling, because "intimacy" over the Internet is kind of like trying to French kiss through a screen door. All that comes through is the sloppiness.

So, I agree with Joe: save your sympathy for people you know. Furthermore, when you need sympathy, turn first to those close to you: family, and the friends you see often. If, for some reason, those people are not sympathetic, consult a pastor or counselor.

Given a choice, choose a face-to-face meeting rather than the telephone, and choose the telephone rather than the Internet. Choose a friend who has proven his faithfulness over a stranger. For serious problems, choose a professional over an amateur. Choose privacy instead of a public forum; it will make both of you more honest.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:47 PM

Max has made HIS point...he does not intend to censor. (If things got totally out of hand, he might pull the plug on the whole thing and let the DigiTrad find a new home), but he tries to leave the inmates to get along inside the asylum.

You will find that people will ***NEVER*** quit disagreeing..in some wierd combinations!.. 'X' dislikes "this", but agrees with "that"..'Y' will allow "that", but cant stand "this"...'Z' thinks "this" AND "that" are ok, but not if you use bad words.. 'A' won't censor his language, but will complain about "that", while indulging in "this".

Substitute prayer, healing, Irish politics, religion in general, non-folk music, inane banter, bad punctuation & spelling, gross jokes, vulgar language, 'cliqueish' behavior, anonymous posting, and having the wrong size body parts for "this" and "that"...and any number of names for A,X,Y & Z and you have ....well, you have a community.

There are people I enjoy talking to here that I might not be close friends with if we were next door neighbors, and there are people whom I respect very much that I don't agree with. And there are people who are generous, well-intenioned, open, friendly, talented....and who I sometimes want to pick them up by the collar and shake them!

The one that is left seldom posts..*grin*
(and all of the above probably wonder about ME a lot of the time!)

I dunno why I'm writing this...I just wish...ahhh, you can tell what I wish, I guess....I wish being human weren't so hard.....


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 01:47 PM

Jim Dixon,

The internet may be a poor substitute for friends in our immediate vicinity, but for some of us, sometimes it's all we've got. Sounds pathetic, I know, but that's how it is.

I'm one of the people who posted a thread asking for hugs. It happened during a time when I was experiencing extreme physical isolation, meaning I was having almost no access to other people (which is most of the time, actually, but I figure one hug thread is probably all I can get away with).

For some of us who experience physical isolation, it's not that we aren't making the effort, it's that we have physical limitations that make it difficult, and sometimes impossible to get out among other people, and some of us even live alone, and have no access to people there, either.

I'm not advocating either for or against prayer/healing request threads. I don't particularly want to get into that debate. But I thought it might be useful for you to know that not everyone is fortunate enough to have people they can get hugs from in the 3D world.

By the way... while my hugs thread may have caused you some embarassment, it helped me a lot. And I have made friends in the 3D world through the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Pseudolus
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:03 PM

Jim Dixon wrote "So, I agree with Joe: save your sympathy for people you know. Furthermore, when you need sympathy, turn first to those close to you: family, and the friends you see often. If, for some reason, those people are not sympathetic, consult a pastor or counselor"

If that works for you than great, go for it. If other people want to go another route, I have no problem with that. It seems like "To each his/her own" doesn't seem to work around here. If there weren't any complaints about the existence of the original thread, it would have died a long time ago and this thread would have never started.

New people join the Cat every day it seems and they don't have the benefit of knowlege of agreements about prayer threads. I've been here around a year and I've never heard such a thing. I HAVE heard that the rule of thunb with flamers, trolls, and spam is to ignore them and let the threads die. If this is truly spam why couldn't it be let go as well?

Frank


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:12 PM

But it's less embarrassing than puzzling, because "intimacy" over the Internet is kind of like trying to French kiss through a screen door. All that comes through is the sloppiness.

I'm cracking up here, Jim!!! Wonderful line!!

There are, for some, perceptions of connectedness that are transcendental -- that is, they sense from various indications the thought behind the screen. When they express hugs, etc. they are talking in reference to thought-exchange stuff, whether it comes about through cyber-notes, email, phone con, etc.

For others, the only reliable assessment of another is from his body language. It's different strokes, indeed, for different folks. One of the tolerated idiosyncracies that make the Cat so wacky and loveable.

A


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:30 PM

...and for some, it's just knowing that there are people in the world who care enough to take a few minutes to post a little bit of kindness.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: clansfolk
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 03:25 PM

so many good points of view....... so many postings from so many people - several "music threads" at the moment have very few postings -ummmmmm does this tell us something

To those of you who I "know" either through their comments or threads I have no problem with passing my sympathies, prayers or support when they or theirs have a problem - like wise I am happy to share their good times and laugh at their funny stories, this I would do for any friend (or acquaintance) - If I am approached by someone I don't know in the street who needs help and I can, I will - is Mudcat any different?

If the subject line reflects the contents and I am not interested I don't click it - that's my solution!!!!

I like Mudcat for the people and the crack (spell it how you like) Long live Mudcat and its friendship....

Now lets stop bickering..............

Pete


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 04:29 PM

I wonder if what really underlies this squabble is the concept that there is power in joint prayer and positive energy, that the good wishes expressed, for example, during Catspaw's illness actually had a substantial impact on his condition.

Joe said that he thought the repeated prayers and goodwishes were a waste of space, that they cheapened the situation. Others feel that these posts embody something more real than a good wish. I respect both viewpoints, although I number myself among those who feel that actual good influence is generated by these prayers and thoughts. I consider Joe and Kat friends and I think this : Joe's post might have made an impact closer to his intention by posting to another thread, or by starting a new one. Kat, more than anyone here, lays her feelings bare, and is likely to start a thread appealing for compassion where others would be embarrassed to do so. Her threads are certainly no more out of place than many other "BS" threads posted here every day.

I understand and appreciate both of these people, as I hope they do me.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 04:42 PM

In re-reading what I wrote above, I realized that it appears that I'm saying that Joe thought the prayers for Spaw cheapened that situation. That's not what I meant. I meant that in general he seems to be saying that these kinds of wishes are repetitive and wasteful.

Sorry Joe..


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 06:29 PM

Joe is a fine fellow and is at the top o' my list. Joe, I do hope to meet you one of these days.

People, there's absolutely no need to agree on so very many fronts--religion being just one of those--probably the least of them all. It just does not matter---not in the long haul and the big picture. Friendships are rare enough as it is in this life. Those can be formed here at Mudcat as well as in person and loyalty engendered by those comaraderic feelings and emotions is a positive force from where I sit. JEEESH, be strong enough in your own beliefs to realize that the world need not be reformed in your image on every little nitpicking point. Recognize the uncertainty in spite of how certain you are on a given point. Agree to disagree and go on with your life. Nobody is causing you and yours harm by saying it's good to pray for a baby. Every time Carol tells me "the world is ending so be prepared" ---I thank her for the info, tell her I love her one more time, we kiss, and I politely say that I think even if she and her friends predict the end down to the last minute---the last second---with my last breath I'd be telling her it was nothing but luck. She and I would be smiling as we lay down for another good nights rest. It si simply so much less hurtful and strident if people just respect themselves and others and quit needing to march through each others neighborhoods proclaiming their righteousness and their right-ness-- as well as the other guys wrong-ness.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: thosp
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:07 PM

(CarolC)

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:09 PM

Aw, thanks thosp!


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 08:48 PM

Joe, stick to your guns. There are other sites that offer prayer. I believe that Mudcat is overextended now with too much BS that has nothing to do with music and performing arts. I am at fault here myself by responding to some threads.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:02 PM

Some pretty petty and silly shite.......

Joe is first rate, end of story. His contributions are legendary. One of the reason you can start any damn thread you want is because Joe is a volunteer. I have watched his role grow here............and his workload. Which is all done gratis. Like the site? Among others, thank Joe.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:12 PM

I don't see pettiness or shite, Big Mick. I see a bunch of good people having some trouble agreeing on something that is important to them.

And I do thank and have thanked Joe Offer. More than once.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:16 PM

I don't believe I asked what you saw. I believe I was one of those people expressing an opinion. You know full well what you are up to.............so do I. Kindly express your own opinions as I will do.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:20 PM

Since I have posted to this thread, I think I am included in your broad sweeping flame of it. I don't enjoy flaming of any sort. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on just what it is that I am doing other than sticking up for myself.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:24 PM

Carol...............You are defensive and trying to bait..........quite childishly.............No one is picking on you, but you seem to think they are..........it is in your mind......or you have a motive...........at any rate, I am not playing. Told you this before and I remind you now. I am not a flamer, my reputation is anything but. You have it in your mind that you are going to change that reputation, you made that clear in your PM to me. Mind if I not play? I am moving on and won't respond to you anymore. Don't like your style. And I think that the predicate of this is exactly what I said it was.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:31 PM

Mick,

I still have the PM to which you refer in my archive. Would you care to retract any of your last statement, or shall I post it here?


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Edmund
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:42 PM

It boils down to this. There seem to be some people in this world who believe that the scales of fate can be favorably tipped by twisting the arm of some god or the other through prayer.
If I shared this view I would be praying and soliciting prayer from others daly ... even hourly. Joe Offer would have to ban my postings to hold me down. But,to me, this makes god a capricious and quirky kind of a being that I don't think I would like very much.
In Tibet beleivers spin prayer wheels filled with prayers .. every revolution sending hundreds of prayers to their god. I hope the Mudcat Forum doesn't become one giagantic Tibetan prayer wheel. I and support Joe Offer 100%
Edmund


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 12:20 AM

Much as I love Joe, I'm with Kat and Carol on this one.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 12:32 AM

Sorry, Alex. I am not voicing an opinion on this issue. My first two posts were only for the purpose of illustrating how internet socializing can be a healthy and helpful thing for some people who are physically isolated. As far as whether or not it's good for the Mudcat, I don't feel qualified to comment.

But thanks anyway.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 12:34 AM

You'll notice that I've tried to be very polite and logical in what I've said, and that I've expressed sympathy for the child involved. I've also stated that what I say is my personal position, not Mudcat policy. If the prayer thread in question were a solitary instance, I'd say nothing - but it's the third one this week that I've noticed (the other two came from Katlaughing, requesting support for her during the temporary loss of her sister's dog and with her well-detailed problems with her children). I am very upset that Mudcat has become mostly a bullshit forum, and that music information is now a very small portion of the discussion.

Nope, I don't think I was insensitive in posting my opinions in the prayer thread itself. You'll note that the prayer request was started by an acquaintance of the family involved, not anyone who is a direct part of the family's plight. I suppose I could have taken my comments into another thread, but I posted them in the thread where the issue existed because that's where it made most sense to put it. I expressed my thoughts logically and politely in a place where people would read it - that's what an open forum is for. If people want to protect themselves from differing opinions, then they should handle prayer and healing requests in the wonderful e-mail lists that WYSIWYG and Katlaughing maintain.

Well, at least that's my opinion. Even though my name is Joe Offer and people think that I am a figment of Max's programming, I do have my own opinions, and I think I have a right to express them.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 12:55 AM

Yep, it's definitely bullshit to turn to your friends in a time of need or to share something. Certainly don't want to build on the wonderful community some of us think we have here. Much better to belittle their need and trivialise it with condescending rhetoric.

The best advice ever is if you don't like the subject, stay out of the thread, pass it by. If you don't think there are enough music threads, start some more.

One wonders where you and your opinions were when "an acquaintance of the family involved" known as Big Mick, asked for help for his friend, whom most of us knew nothing about.

Have you asked any of the recipients of the thoughts, etc. how they've felt about the threads for them? Have any of them told you is was "tacky," "bullshit," of no earthly use to them, no better than a "chain letter?"

kat


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 01:01 AM

What I notice, Joe, is that it's not enough for you to have your say on this, and let others disagree. You have to go on and on and on on and on and on about it, voluminously, seemingly endlessly. Can't you let it rest? You've had your say. What the hell more do you want?

Alex


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 01:46 AM

Well, Alex, if I get vituperative responses to my opinions, wouldn't it be appropriate to come back with my own response? In a debate, is a person allowed only one chance to express and defend a point of view? I'd like to discuss this matter in a rational manner until we come to an acceptable compromise. We had a compromise worked out in 1999, but Kat and others seem to be itching to violate it and start the fight anew. Why is it that I have to turn over and play dead? Don't I have a right to have my say? I usually stay in the music threads until things get out of hand in the rest of Mudcat - maybe it's time for me to stick my neck into the bullshit and see if I can shovel some away. You'll also note that I rarely start threads myself - I just respond when I think I have a need to. Don't I have a right?
Do you have any suggestions for a compromise? You'll note I suggested two possibilites in the "prayer request" thread. Do you have a rational response, or is your argument strictly ad hominem?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 01:57 AM

Of course you have a right to have your say, we're not talking about rights here. At least I wasn't. Anytime somebody says "I don't think it was necessary to say that" people start making noises about "rights." I didn't say "you have no right to say that." That would be stupid. Why did you take it that way?

My point is just that you have made your point. You have posted a lot of words about this subject, but you're just going around in circles with the people you disagree with. It's become a "did not, did too, did not" sort of "debate" -- and yet you keep on. I was suggesting that maybe you could drop it.

As for Kat itching to violate some sacred truce, no, sorry, that doesn't play. You jumped in the "prayer" thread and started swinging the cutlass. She might have jumped in after you and started parrying, but yours was the first volley.

I will ask what has been asked before: there is a lot of off-topic nonsense that gets posted here. Why is it only the prayers for this boy that got your back up? Where were you when the prayers were for Spaw? I don't remember you shedding oceans of words to stop THOSE threads. You seem to have a very selective sense of what's good and what isn't good for Mudcat.

Awaiting your voluminous reply,
I remain,
Alex


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 02:16 AM

Alex-I know this is really none of my business, and tell me to get lost if you like but, I think Joe has made the point that in some of these threads no Mudcatters knew the people asking for help, Spaw is one of us, and is well liked around here, and because we know him our concerns for him are genuine.Where do you draw the line? Would it be ok for me to say my friends next door neighboor is ill please send your thoughts? If everybody posted a thread when they saw or heard of people in trouble there would be nothing else here.john


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 02:38 AM

John has a point.

I feel like I know several hundred catters. Now if each one made their personal concerns and problems a thread topic, we would soon be overrun with such.

Just this last three months I've been surrounded by terminal illness dianoses in close friends, divorce, alcoholism, bankrupcy...get the picture? I've talked with several catters, and their support is comforting. I wouldn't trade my problems/crises for any others in the world, but I can't help but think every single one of us has at least three a year just as serious. This multiplies out to be a very large numeber.

I really prefer personal communications. I've found my close Mudcat friends as well as 3D friends very supportive.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 02:45 AM

John in Hull: a good point, and well said. However, is that Joe's only point? If so, he could have said it once and had done with it. I once posted how annoying I found "happy birthday threads" and then I dropped it. I don't keep bringing it up, nor do I keep going into "birthday" threads and posting about how I feel about them. If you look at the VOLUME of words Joe has written on this subject in the last 48 hours, it's like 3 or 4 normal threads' worth. Who's wasting bandwidth here?

This is an open forum and members are free to post what they will. Max has made this very clear.

So why keep flogging the dead horse? What is in it for Joe to keep reminding us, ad nauseam, about his pet peeve?

And no, it's not because Spaw is a beloved member of our community. Joe has said of these prayer/healing threads in general, and I quote, I suppose that healing threads work very well as a source of comfort for those who believe in things like chain letters and pyramid schemes and television evangelism and eating to lose weight.

Perhaps we should start a permathread about "How Joe Offer Feels About Healing Threads" -- and when another one popped up, he could just post a link to it.

I really don't understand the level of what appears to be vehemence and irrationality coming from an otherwise rational, sane, and friendly guy. Nor do I agree with his "method" in attacking his least favorite kind of thread. And so I ask the questions I do.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 02:47 AM

(red in the face) actually my pet peeve is "welcome new member [name]" threads, not happy birthday threads. Ooops. I plead "late at night."

Alex


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