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Dear Joe Offer et al

GUEST 18 Jul 01 - 02:23 PM
Lonesome EJ 18 Jul 01 - 01:55 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jul 01 - 01:53 PM
SharonA 18 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM
Lighthouse 65 16 Jul 01 - 11:40 PM
Snuffy 16 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM
Big Mick 16 Jul 01 - 08:05 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 01 - 07:29 PM
Barry Finn 16 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM
flattop 16 Jul 01 - 05:47 PM
mousethief 16 Jul 01 - 04:38 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM
dwditty 16 Jul 01 - 04:01 PM
Ralphie 16 Jul 01 - 03:58 PM
MMario 16 Jul 01 - 03:56 PM
dwditty 16 Jul 01 - 03:45 PM
mousethief 16 Jul 01 - 03:44 PM
Ralphie 16 Jul 01 - 03:43 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 01 - 03:23 PM
Bill D 16 Jul 01 - 03:22 PM
Joe Offer 16 Jul 01 - 02:50 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM
Lonesome EJ 16 Jul 01 - 02:35 PM
Amos 16 Jul 01 - 02:24 PM
dwditty 16 Jul 01 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Shenandoah 16 Jul 01 - 02:02 PM
Jeri 16 Jul 01 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Shenandoah 16 Jul 01 - 01:47 PM
annamill 16 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM
bbc 16 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Shenandoah 16 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM
SharonA 16 Jul 01 - 01:18 PM
dwditty 16 Jul 01 - 01:11 PM
Art Thieme 16 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM
IvanB 16 Jul 01 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,moonchild unlurking 16 Jul 01 - 12:26 PM
Jon Freeman 16 Jul 01 - 12:17 PM
SharonA 16 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM
mousethief 16 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM
sophocleese 16 Jul 01 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,Shenandoah 16 Jul 01 - 11:36 AM
SharonA 16 Jul 01 - 11:21 AM
Amos 16 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM
CarolC 16 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM
KingBrilliant 16 Jul 01 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Shenandoah 16 Jul 01 - 11:07 AM
CarolC 16 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM
CarolC 16 Jul 01 - 10:26 AM
Gervase 16 Jul 01 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Douglas Adams 16 Jul 01 - 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 02:23 PM

My understanding of an faq is that it is unique to the particular forum it is to be used for, and should act as an "introduction to the ways we do things here, as opposed to the ways things are done in other forums."

FAQs are also places where one goes to find generalist and specialist information about the forum's purpose (in this case folk and blues music) which can act as a pointer to beginner/introductory sources of information about the subject matter the forum regularly addresses. To my way of thinking, this is intended to help newcomers/beginners to the forum or the music itself.

However, many FAQs are not maintained by site/list/newsgroup owners. So to suggest Joe Offer doesn't have the authority to put the guideline in, even if some current members disagree with it, may be incorrect for Mudcat. In most FAQs, one is provided with contact information for the maintainer of the FAQ (ie with a real name and email address) who can be contacted with questions. It does seem to me the whole Joe Offer thing is needless buffer/level of bureaucracy between site owners and site users.

Also, as a newcomer to the forum, I don't find much in the way of useful information (how we do it here information) anyway. I really don't consider the faq here to be a very good one, as FAQs go, for that reason.

The perma-threads are good though.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 01:55 PM

Sharon, you are right.

Joe's post, in my opinion, steps outside the bounds of a guideline for Forum Use (the intent of the Newcomer's Guide) and presents editorial opinion. Now there's nothing wrong with editorial opinion, but putting that opinion into the Newcomer's Guide format puts an official stamp on it, and unless Max has authorized it, it seems to step across the boundary of Joe's authority.That's my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 01:53 PM

Freedom of expression is fine, but the purpose of Mudcat is to provide a music forum. General BS is one thing, but random BS has so invaded threads started with musical content in mind that it is difficult and time-consuming to find information. If both random BS and Music Forum are to co-exist, then a wall should be erected to separate them.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 12:22 PM

Lighthouse 65 and all others: I'm afraid that, by request of Joe himself, it's not the end after all. Joe has taken his post of 16-Jul-01 (2:50 pm) listed above, and posted it on the Mudcat FAQ/Newcomer's Guide (including his anecdote about his traffic accident!). He has requested that any responses not be posted there, as he edits that thread regularly, but on this thread instead. In fact, mousethief posted a comment about it on the FAQ and that comment has already been deleted.

I have already stated, in this thread and in the "prayer request" thread, my opinions on the subject matter of Joe's post. However, I have a response to its appearance in the FAQ: I don't think it belongs there.

He prefaced the FAQ post with the statement that it was his own opinion, not Mudcat policy. However, its very presence there, its outline as a list of suggested behaviors, and the thread's position at the top of the Forum all give Joe's post an air of authority. The absence of any conflicting opinion following his own on that thread — and the quick disappearance of any other opinions that might be posted there — creates even more of the illusion of authority, especially to newbies who might interpret it as a line not to be crossed, considering its source.

Does this cross over into abuse of his position at Mudcat? My feeling is that it does. I thought that a Frequently Asked Questions page was a place to obtain information about a site's operation and policies, not a place for one person alone to express his opinions concerning those policies.

Also, Joe's opinions in the 16-Jul-01 post don't appear to be consistent with some of his earlier statements on the Mudcat FAQ:


"I think the general principle here at Mudcat is "civil anarchy." Max, Dick, and Susan have shown no desire to set rules for operation of the Mudcat. They are very gracious hosts, and it would be nice if we'd all follow their example. That should be the only rule we need."

Under LYRIC REQUESTS: "It's a wonderful thing that our Forum is a spontaneous free-for-all, no-holds-barred bull session."

Under WHAT'S NOT ALLOWED: "I refer most questions of etiquette to a truly wise person, Miss Manners, whose basic premise is the Golden Rule, that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us, etc., etc. I fully agree with Miss Manners on this.
"We believe that Mudcatters are blessed with common sense and admirable judgment, and should have little need of rules. The Powers That Be at Mudcat are tolerant of just about everything but intolerance..."

Under MUDCATIQUETTE: "I'm staying away from giving guidelines on etiquette.....Some people have suggested that there should be more rules around here, so that people know how to behave properly; and that this or that should be better-organized or have instructions that are clearer. Mudcat is governed by a principle of civil anarchy, and that principle gives Mudcat much of its spontaneity, intelligence, and friendly spirit."

Under WHAT ABOUT CENSORSHIP?: "We try very hard to preserve freedom of expression here at Mudcat....The Mudcat Cafe is a music discussion forum. Other activities are permitted and encouraged..."


Yet in his 16-Jul-01 post to the FAQ, Joe DIScourages specific activities. He had already stated in a 17-Jul-00 post to the FAQ: "I still think it's better not to use the Forum for stuff that's not of general interest" but has not, until now, defined that "stuff" and ignored his previously stated no-etiquette-guidelines-in-the-FAQ policy Again, I think the posting of Joe's personal opinion of what does and does not belong in the Forum should be stated in the Forum itself where the rest of us are free to discuss it, and should not be posted in the FAQ/Newcomer's Guide.

SharonA


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:40 PM

Amen.

The End.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

Sorry to creep this thread onto music, but this seemed appropriate (from LET UNION BE IN ALL OUR HEARTS )

Cease your quarreling and fighting,
Evil thinking and backbiting.
All these things take no delight in,
While we are together.

cho:Let union be in all our hearts,
Let all our hearts be joined as one.
We'll end the day as we begun,
We'll end it all in pleasure.
Right-folla-rolla-rye, too-ra-lie-doe (3x)
While we are together.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:05 PM

Let this be the last post. Please.

Carol, I apologize for referring to the PM. I could have conveyed the same opinion without referring to that message. I sincerely apologize for referring to it and ask anyone who reads this message to accept that the mistake was mine. I am not apologizing for my opinion. In the future I will not respond to you. I may respond to some of the ideas that you post, but only in the general sense.

And Carol, Thank you for not starting a thread. I am just as certain of my position as you are of yours. But the only outcome of it would have been negative to the Mudcat. It is to your credit that you took this path in the face of something you believe strongly. I shall never again mention our differences unless you do.

Shenandoah, do us all a favor. Go back to lurking. We all know Jeri, and have been reading her posts for years. Whatever your axe is, go grind it somewhere else.

Joe, your last post has given me reason to pause. It is well written and has great merit. I need to rethink some things. To be sure we will visit the subject more as we go.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:29 PM

I'm sorry Barry, but I have to post to this thread one more time.

I have been informed that it could cause serious harm to the Mudcat if I post the contents of the PMs I sent to Big Mick. So I will not do so.

I stand by my assertion that I did not say what he accused me of saying. And I feel comforted in the fact that I have not posted any Personal Messages that were sent to me by anyone else in the forum.

Very sincerely,

Carol


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM

Hey Moonchild nice to know you're in the neighborhood & it'll be good to see you come Oct (always a pleasure). I'd have to say you're dead right on with reguards to Jeri. After playing/singing with Jeri over the years, at sessions, at parties, at my house, at Getaways I think I know her well enough to say that I do know that she's one of those people who'll be right there with a lending hand & a warm heart & never the one to play the unfriendly note in anyones direction. I know & play/sing with a great many others who feel the same way about her. In fact, up till now I've never heard anyone say even the slightest thing that wasn't in a positive light (not that if you can't say someting nice don't say any thing at all, it's always been positive) & I'm covering the span of a number of years.
It well may be that many of the long time posters don't post that much here anymore because of the lack of the music (this topic goes back at least to 1997 that I can remember) or it may also be due to the change in the way people relate to one another or it could even be a change in the weather, what ever the cause it's a very sorry sight to see what's going on here presently.
As to cyber friendships, I must know &/or have met about a hundred catter's & played/performed with or shared a stage of one kind or another with perhaps at the very least half of them & can only say that I am far off the better & richer for meetting in them in the flesh which would never have happened if it weren't for this site. I do believe that you can say you're rich if you have one friend & that (at least I can say, already being there) one can be ready to die content knowing that they have made may friendships in their lifetime. What does one say about themselves when they use their time going about & picking fights & making enemies? A poor soul?
I hope that this tread has had enough rope to now hang itself in shame so we can all get back on track. Good rythmns to bad trash. Barry


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: flattop
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:47 PM

It's nice to see so many of the old regulars being irregular on this thread. Hello everybody.

I have only had time to skim the posts but I think the worst part is the opening message. Talk about poor etiquette! If Joe had a few good kat-fights, why can't Lighthorse 69 post blue clickies to the exciting and offensive posts so that we don't have to spend hours searching. Isn't there something in the faq compelling mudcatters to create clickies to the most outrageous items that they find? If there isn't, there should be. Haven't had time to read the faq either.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:38 PM

Not sure you can, Carol. If somebody is saying things about a PM that you believe false, then they are responsible for publicizing the PM, and your posting of it to set the record straight doesn't (IMHO) count as a breach of PM etiquette.

For what it's worth, that's my opinion.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:34 PM

Annamil, I don't understand your post. You said...

Ok! That's a f**king nuff! First you attack Joe (what brought me in here in the first place), then you attack MICK, I believe someone even attacked MAX!!!! Now you're attacking Jeri!

No one has attacked Mick. And I have not attacked anybody. I am defending myself against an accusation that was made against me about something that was allegedly said by me in a Personal Message.

I have been told by a Mudcatter that it is considered bad form to reveal the contents of PMs. So my question to you and to everyone else is this...

If someone made an accusation against you that you knew was false about something you put in a PM, and if it was an accusation that you could not let ride, how would you defend yourself without posting the actual PM in question?


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:01 PM

You haven't lost a day, Mario. It's just that this particular Monday is dragging a bit. My mistake.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Ralphie
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:58 PM

Mouse....Ta Muchly!! dwditty.....probably can't access any US Radio over here in London town....But, to all UK readers....Friday nights Andy Kershaw show on BBC R3 has a brilliant Kate Rusby session on it. I should know....(Puffed Chest!!) Aw Shucks, I cannot tell a lie......LOL R xx
Ralphie, Click here for Mudcat Radio.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: MMario
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:56 PM

today is monday at mudcat. radio is tuesday, isn't it? Or have I lost a day?


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:45 PM

I smile a bit when I notice those who have NOT posted here - and you know who you are. It occurs to me that, by Max's design, Mudcat is free to go pretty much where it will. Maybe it'll become a 100% prayer site. Maybe a 100% music site. Maybe a 100% clique-y, in-crowd site. Maybe Max won't like where it goes and, he'll shut it down. After all, it is his opinion that really matters. So what. I say let it go where it goes. Go ahaed and voice your opinion, but if the will of the people (hey, I remember that phrase) dictates a particular direction that may be in conflict with your particular view....well, accept it, voice your opinion some more, or go on to some other place. No big deal, really. Maybe it's just me, but it always surprises me to see how we react to words on a computer screen. After all, people, it is just a freaking web site (all be it, one that I love and will continue to visit regularly).

BTW, does anyone know what the plan is for the radio show tonight?

dw


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:44 PM

That was a very nice post, Ralphie! Thanks!

Joe: great ideas. Anybody who wants to follow them is welcome to. Will you allow those who do NOT want to follow them their freedom of expression as well?

Alex


Sure, Alex - I'll allow people to do whatever it is they do. But does that mean I'm not allowed to express my own opinion? Actually, somebody pointed out to me in a personal message that because I have somewhat of an administrative responsibility here, I am somewhat more restricted in what I should say and do, and I need to be careful to maintain impartiality in all my posts. I admit that I may have pushed against that barrier in the last few days.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Ralphie
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:43 PM

Previous message was from Ralphie....Don't EVER, EVER, EVER, Think I would post as a "Guest"...I would never post anonymously....Cookie failure, apologies.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:23 PM

Joe....I don't know you, I'm assuming that you live in the US...
I live in the UK, and, to me, anyway, you make complete sense. (?)......I'm pleased to be here, Very happy with all the wonderful information that I've gleaned from threads,(various). Not too bothered by the others. I still wake up in the morning feeling OK....no "flamers,trollers or gargantuan reptiles" to haunt (or taunt) me.
Religious beliefs have led to a lot of wars in the last 2000 years or so.(don't want to start a Northern Ireland thread here....Don't even think about it!!!) Whether your, (or indeed, anybody's) God exists doesn't really matter, except to the beleivers....
Prayer threads?? Don't really have an opinion, except, that I hope that everybody who is ill gets better....That everybody who has lost someone, has close friends to support them......and, that everybody respects everybody elses rights......
With great humility, and much love to all who are in pain, for whatever reason, BIG HUGS Ralphie xxx
Can I stop now??.....And Will You?...(Not a particular message to Joe
) Applies to all...LOL!


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:22 PM

I have spoken to Bruce O..face to face...about Mudcat & his feelings. He likes old music, and does not like wading thru BS threads to get to it...I suppose you could construe that as being 'driven off', but he knew very well what the score was, he just made a considered, adult choice not to post...just as several others have. (I 'suspect' he occasionally peeks in, but the 2-3 times I have talked to him, we didn't discuss it!)

..he tried very hard for a long time to cope, and just decided it was taking more time than it was worth...he made the point that we all know how to find him, and if anyone has any serious questions about his fields of interest, he'd be glad to help.

'taint very nice to read folks minds in absentia and explain THEIR motivations for them.


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Subject: Mudcat, formerly a music forum
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 02:50 PM

I saw in another thread that Mick Lane said this isn't a music forum, that's it's more of a hangout for people who like music. I think he's right. It used to be a music forum, where music was the primary focus of discussion - and delightful, intelligent, uproariously funny side discussions sprang from the music discussions. Now it's a cozy, friendly hangout for a bunch of nice computer addicts who know each other quite well and enjoy each other's company. There are music questions that come up regularly, and people will wander over and answer the question and go back to goofing around with their friends. The music discussions still arise on occasion, but they're really not connected to the main part of the discussion. Sure, there are more music threads than "BS"- but the music threads contain far fewer messages.

So, what's happened? The balance of Mudcat has changed, and I think Mick is absolutely right that this is no longer a music forum. He likes it that way. I don't.

Yes, there is a need for community and goofing off and prayer and concern and freedom - but do we have to sacrifice our reputation for music in order to satisfy the needs of our current community? Are we drawing and keeping people who want to talk music, or are they getting disgusted and drifting away?

I'm not completely opposed to anything that is currently happening at Mudcat. It's still a vibrant, interesting place filled with wonderful people. However, it is no longer primarily a music forum, and I would like us to work together to nudge us back into balance.

How can we adjust the balance?
  • Well, the first and most essential thing we must do is to maintain the discipline of silence and do not respond to trolls, flames, and Spam. We've had some horrible threads started in the last week, but what's even more horrible is that Mudcatters have responded to these threads at an incredible rate and ran many of them up past the hundred-message mark. The most deplorable thread was the "Erection" thread, and people responded to it with dozens of messages. People, what is it that drives you to prolong this insanity?
  • Another thing we can do is to provide a home for personal things that don't quite deserve the prominence that threads get. I think there's a pretty easy way for us to do this: Think twice before you start a thread, and don't start threads for personal matters. Feel free to say anything you want in messages within a thread, but don't start a thread unless you think it's going to make a discussion that's interesting to all. If you want to mention needs for prayer or birthdays or welcomes within a thread where it fits, that's wonderful. People around here generally are compulsively nice. If you start a thread, people will feel compelled to respond to you so you won't feel alone, even if they have nothing to say.
    A week ago, I was involved in a spectacular and very frightening car accident. I was driving the speed limit, and in my rear-view mirror I could see a pack of cars racing with each other, coming upon me at a tremendous rate of speed. One car hit me from behind, hit the car next to me, and ended up in front of me. A fourth car hit me from behind and pushed me into the first car. It was a very significant event for me (and the damages to my pretty red car were $5,000), and it would be perfectly appropriate for me to tell people here about it - but should I have started a thread to tell people about it? No. What significant things could people have said in response? Would have made an interesting thread?
  • One more thing I'd suggest: Find another home for things that are repetitive or not of general interest - and by that, I mean especially prayer, healing, birthdays, welcome, and requests for sympathy. Is Pete Seeger's birthday suitable for a thread? No, I don't think so. He has a birthday once a year, like clockwork, just like the rest of us. Is a new Pete Seeger album a suitable topic? Certainly. It's nice to welcome new Mudcatters, but is it appropriate to start of thread for each of the over six thousand people who have joined us? Nope.
  • I got a prayer request e-mail from the Mudcat prayer mailing list today, and it struck me how perfectly appropriate it was. I read the message with interest, thought for a moment about the person who needs prayer, said a brief prayer, and went on. The message was almost a gift to me, I think. I had asked to be put on the mailing list, and it gave me a moment to be thoughtful of someone in need. It didn't arouse controversy or question because it was right where it belonged. Such messages are welcomed by all who receive them, and I think that's how it should be. An occasional prayer request in the Forum isn't the end of the world, but where do you draw the line? There were three this week, and it seems that related topics on Mudcat multiply geometrically. So, I'd suggest that we make good use of the wonderful Mudcat prayer and healing mail lists, and start threads on such needs only when it's clearly a matter of general interest to Mudcatters.

That's my opinion. It's not infallible, and it's not Mudcat policy. Still, I think there's a need for us to work together to adjust the balance so Mudcat regains its reputation as a home for rich, intelligent discussion of music – mixed with a lot of fun and a lively community life.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM

ANNOUNCEMENT

IMPORTANT EVENT !!!!!

THE FINAL SHOWDOWN CAROLC AND BIG MICK

ON ONE OF OUR FAMOUS STREETS DATE TO BE ANNOUNCED

TO BE FOLLOWED BY BURIAL CEREMONY ON BOOT HILL

CHAMBER OF DEADLY COMMERCE LAREDO, TEXAS

LICENSED BETTING PRELIMINARY AMATEUR SHOOTOUTS BARBECUE BARBEQUES


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 02:35 PM

I don't believe Bruce was "driven out", Shenandoah. He left of his own accord. He did indulge in several instances of anonymous baiting and trolling for which he received well-earned vitriol. I think, despite that, Bruce is missed here and would be welcome any time.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 02:24 PM

Shenandoah:

I don't recall Bruce being "driven off" in the way you imply, but, whatever the kafluffle was, his insight and wisdom about things musical is always welcome here as far as I am concerned. I would suggest that you let him speak for himself. I have always found him to be an intelligent, helpful and valuable colleague here.

But we each have to decide for ourselves how we are going to respond to irrationality, and withdrawal is certainly only one of the options. To use a term like "witchhunting" for a cyber environment where noone is obliged to take on board any viewpoint that is wrong, ill-reasoned, unfair or bigoted is a bit extreme. The real world referent is a practice that physically destroys people involved, where grace in response is meaningless, and the outcome usually is out of the target;s control! None of these things apply here.

I for one am sorry if some injustice or irrational messaging left Bruce O feeling like dropping off the 'Cat.

A


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 02:17 PM

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah - just my 2 cents.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 02:02 PM

To those who are interested in discussing American traditional music in a forum without this sort of invective, I invite you to join us in alt.music.bluegrass.

A wonderful group.

Hope to see those of you interested in music there any time!


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:50 PM

Janet - LOL!


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:47 PM

Hey annamill, some of us felt the same way about Bruce Olson, as you feel about your Mudcat cronies.

Only difference between Bruce and the Mudcat elite, are that Bruce actually knows what he is talking about when it comes to music, and most the rest of you don't.

It is just this sort of non-music crap that has driven nearly every knowledgeable folkie who once frequented Mudcat, out of this forum.

But apparently, that is supposed to be JUST FINE with the passive/aggressive and emotionally needy among you, who, apparently, would just rather talk about themselves, amongst themselves.

Is it any wonder all there is left of Mudcat are the ashes of a formerly good on-line folk music discussion forum?


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: annamill
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM

Ok! That's a f**king nuff! First you attack Joe (what brought me in here in the first place), then you attack MICK, I believe someone even attacked MAX!!!! Now you're attacking Jeri!

I know all these people personally. Some have even been to my house. (Mick keeps promisin', but nothin' so far) Everyone of them is worthy of being called fantastic. ..and some who have posted here that I have not mentioned are too. That's 'nuff!

What childish nonsense! I'm way too busy for this crap!

LOVE, annamill


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: bbc
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:25 PM

Well, the thread's at 100 posts. Can we stop now?

respectfully,

bbc


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM

C'mon people. I said, look at Jeri's posting history here. While she can be very kind, helpful, and does often contribute to music discussions. She also is, like so many others currently posting in this very thread, drawn to flame/troll threads like a moth to a flame.

How about a little something straight from the horse's mouth to make my point?

From Jeri's 15 Apr 01 10:17 a.m. message posted to the "Non-music...Why, oh why, oh why?" thread:

"(Just ask me - I used to routinely shoot my mouth off in those newsgroups and I'm just getting to the point where I can walk away in Mudcat, or at least discuss and not react.)"

I am of the opinion that names like Jeri, as well as many others currently posting to this and the other flame threads, are found just a bit too commonly in these types of threads.

I hadn't so much as looked in here even once in recent months. I was so deeply disturbed by the witch hunt that drove Bruce Olson from Mudcat for anonymous posting, I didn't think I'd ever come back again. I check in, and what is happening, but the very same thing. More witch hunts, attempting drive out people who clearly have some knowledge about folk music, and about the folk music scene. And of course, I find precious few, if any, really knowledgeable people posting in Mudcat.

To be fair, many of them aren't posting in Usenet anymore either. Why? Because they keep getting driven out of the forums by "well meaning" people like Jeri, who are just going to teach a thing or two to those people they disagree with.

I see by the most recent threads, the witch hunts are still business as usual, and that virtually no one is discussing music. All of us lurkers/guests haven't been successfully brainwashed by the Mudcat party line.

We also aren't idiots. We know there is the open forum here. And we also know how important your "membership has it's benefits" shadow forum of the PMs.

After all, you used the shadow forum so effectively in your witch hunt to drive out Guest #1 when you drove out Bruce Olson, didn't you?


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:18 PM

Jon Freeman: Oh. Sorry. Silly me, the newbie!

Well, then, I'll stick with the Gilligan's Island analogy: "[We'll] have to make the best of things; it's an uphill climb..."

SharonA


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: dwditty
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:11 PM

Hi Moon, nice to see you.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM

Seriously, I suggest we now go over to the Fred Rogers thread...

Art


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: IvanB
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:53 PM

moonchild, good to see you post. You've been missed. Hope to see you again at Getaway.

I agree with you re: the attack on Jeri. I have no idea or interest in what she may be posting on groups where I'm not a member. I can only judge her by her posts on Mudcat, and I've never found any reason to believe she's anything but a caring and helpful individual.

I agree with your assessment of most threads on Mudcat lately, but keep hoping the tide will turn to the point where you and many others will see fit to return on a more regular basis.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,moonchild unlurking
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:26 PM

Rarely do I tune in to mudcat these days and then only to see if there are any interesting guitar threads. I did, however, make the mistake of opening this particular thread and morbid curiousity has me watching it's digression.

Joe, kat, Mick, and Susan, have issues and have fought them publicly. They may not agree, but they stand by their convictions, can hold their own, and then agree to disagree. That's okay and it's honorable.

This latest attack, on Jeri, has me puzzled. I feel I'm qualified to comment on her behaviour because I've known her, both virtually and inperson, four years. She continues to be intelligent and kind. She admits when she's made a mistake and doesn't gloat when she's right. Jeri has written more "reason" on this forum than anyone else, in five years. She is the type of friend, who doesn't check in with you everday, but she's there when you need her. I would trust Jeri with my life.

I continue to be amazed at how people treat each other on this forum. It's as if, just because they aren't sitting right across from you, it's okay to be nasty to them. Oh, and before you comment, I'm not immune from that accusation, but I've had a long time to reflect on my own foibles.

To those of you who continue to comment on sacred cows and cliques ... there are a few people on this forum who have been here from the beginning or close to it. Those individuals have been instrumental in the growth of this forum and in making it a place where you can vent your opinion and talk about non-music subjects. Have some respect, for g-d's sake.

The civility on this forum has diminished at an alarming rate and it is not because of the individuals mentioned above or the old-timers, or even some of the newcomers. It is people who now come onto this forum and see only the chat and never see or saw any of the really good stuff.

Back to occasional lurkdom, for which, I'm sure, most of you will be thankful.

moonchild


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:17 PM

Sharon, splitting the forum has been suggested a few times. Max has made it quite clear that will never happen. For better or for worse, we have to make most of it as it stands.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM

Admittedly, it's difficult to find the music-related threads in the morass of other subjects on the Forum. Also, sometimes the attention-getting thread titles are misleading (for example, the one on contact pick-ups for instruments).

Is it possible to separate the Forum into two Forums (Fora?), a Music Forum and [as on Gilligan's Island] "The Rest", but keep both within Mudcat the website? If so, it would be ideal if people could still link a BS post to a related music thread on the Music Forum (or a DT listing), as they do now within the single Forum.

SharonA


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM

They are a way out of thinking about folk and blues music not an aid towards thinking about folk and blues music.

They are a way of being community. They keep people around and checking back frequently who otherwise would check back very infrequently, and then far fewer of the actual music questions would get answered in a timely manner. Also I believe far fewer of us would hook up in real life if all this were were a "Q and A" site about music.

People are not just vehicles for the creation and delivery of music.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:48 AM

A music only forum might not be as rapid fire as this one is, but is that really a problem? We fall into the danger of counting as successful only those threads with lots of responses, but can we really say that a thread on the size of sombody's penis or arse is a successful thread?

BS Threads are the formula fiction,addiction fiction, mental popcorn, Harlequin Romances, Serial Detective Novels, 18th volume of Dragonquest whatever, that appear on Mudcat bookshelves. They're easy to read and easy to respond to. They are a way out of thinking about folk and blues music not an aid towards thinking about folk and blues music.

Music may be based on the experiences of real life, in dramatic moments or humourous ones, but in the transmission of a song music transcends the specific moment that spawned the song. Prayer threads, BS threads wallow in the experience but rarely climb out.

Its July and people are away and hot and things seem boring so they get picky, picky, picky. What a surprise! Ray Bradbury wrote a good story about people being murdered at a particular temperature he could probably do the same about Mudcatters getting snippy at certain times of the year. The balance has been lost of late so it makes sense to work towards getting it back again.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:36 AM

As is your choice CarolC. But your highmindedness about Jeri seems a bit suspect when it appears in a thread where you are publicly attacking another poster. Perhaps my initial opinion of you was wrong. Like does, after all, attract like.

Just trying to walk the center line here. You seem to be a good person. I have no idea what this is all about, but whatever it is about, and whoever it is about, it isn't an appropriate topic for a public forum of any sort. Why? Because there will be always be those (like Jeri) who will jump right in the middle (as she just did), just to see the cat fight get going, and then provide their personal commentary on individuals in the thread (like you).

Or is this really about the fact I said I'd like to see Mudcat be a music only forum, since you don't seem to contribute much on that subject here?


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:21 AM

GUEST, Shenandoah sez: "...on this 3rd? 4th? Monday in a row...the only music threads [are] the ones refreshed by someone over the weekend in large numbers..." Two paragraphs later, (s)he sez: "A 'music only' forum is an eminently sensible idea."

Sensible it might be, but apparently it wouldn't be very active. This reinforces the point of my post above: music is so much more than the songs themselves. To segregate music from the humanity that creates it does not serve either.

SharonA


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:20 AM

I doubt we want the Mudcat to be an academic site. Musicians and lovers of music are complex and temperamental and so far, our commitment has been to encourage the great scholarship, the musical commentary, the discovery of lost lyrics, etc., and also, compassionately, share feelings and thoughts and personal stuff as well. And the per centages have not been unacceptable. They ebb and flow -- which is about what you'd expect in the nature of things -- sometimes leaning toward musical predominance, and other times toward personal, literary, or other things which are unfortunately all gathered under "BS".

Learning to deal with trolls and provocateurs of whatever motivation is part of a maturing of the community. "Barance!! Learn BARANCE!" (Karate Kid).

Tell you what guys -- let's breathe deep and remember our fundamental affinities here, and go back to that.

A


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM

GUEST,Shenandoah,

I will not get involved in what you are doing. I have never had any problems with Jeri, and I prefer to go by my own experiences when I form my opinions of her.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:07 AM

I agree with Joe etc - that if we all posted our problems then the site would be overwhelmed. I also agree with a lot of what Jim Dixon said. At a low ratio its not a problem because its easy to keep away from what you don't like - however if the ratio rises then it will have an impact on the site
I am happy to include the sick in my prayers, if they are 'catters or are close to 'catters. That's pretty much where my personal line goes though. Any other problem that is not music-related I am unlikely to be bothered about unless I know the individual - same as in 3D.
Having said that I bet I forget all that if ever I feel in need of a conceptual hug!!
Problem is, you can't separate the people from the music - and its unlikely Mudcat will go back to pure music threads. And it might be a bit dry if it did.
One point I would make though is that having started a thread on a personal problem, one shouldn't then take exception if any particular response isn't exactly what you were looking for - ie someones opinion doesn't agree with your own assessment of the situation. That would be self-indulgent.

Kris


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:07 AM

I don't know how many Mudcatters are regular visitors to the Usenet folk music groups, but I've lurked in the on-line folk forums for many years, here and Usenet. There are a few former Usenet regulars who are now posting here, presumably because the flaming, baiting, and trolling is much better in Mudcat these days than in the Usenet folk forums.

CarolC--Jeri is one of the worst troublemakers of those former Usenet regulars, who have taken up residence in Mudcat. Jeri can nearly always be found at the center of a cat fight, stating vociferously that she will not get sucked into the middle of this or that flame war. Or others should not respond to this or that troll (which she nearly always will), and then seeks to undermine the credibility/reputation of the person she has chosen as her target in the thread where the war takes place. Some of us who lurk in both places, and have been around awhile, see that pretty clearly.

This is pretty typical behavior for her. Just click her name in blue, and have a look see at her posting history of late here in Mudcat. My advice--ignore her. She is mean-spirited, particularly if she has decided she doesn't like you. Looks to me like she has now made you her target for this thread. Don't let her get to you. You are one of the finer contributors to this forum.

Long as I've delurked, I'd like to comment on how disempowering it is, on this 3rd? 4th? Monday in a row, to see more of this stinking @#@#, and the only music threads, the ones refreshed by someone over the weekend in large numbers. God only knows what that is about.

Whoever suggested the idea that Mudcat should be/have a music only forum, I second the idea!

This place is being abused by member and guest flamers and trollers, and those who wish to use the forum as their personal soapbox/therapy group. A "music only" forum is an eminently sensible idea.

Who knows--we may even find that knowledgeable, thoughtful people, who actually prefer discussing music to commenting upon their own and other people's petty psychodramas, might start posting here again.

To a Music Only Mudcat, I say Hear! Hear!


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:39 AM

This is a direct quote of the accusation as it appears above...

Told you this before and I remind you now. I am not a flamer, my reputation is anything but. You have it in your mind that you are going to change that reputation, you made that clear in your PM to me.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:26 AM

Jeri, I'm sorry you feel that way. The accusation I feel the need to defend myself against is that I have stated an intention to damage Mick's reputation. I would never ever do that to anyone, and I did not state any such thing. To do so is contrary to all of my spiritual and ethical beliefs, and it cuts very deeply to be accused of it, especially because I never said anything remotely of the sort.

I think it's wrong to be talking in the open forum about what people have sent each other in PMs. That's why they are PMs. They are personal. Mick brought this out in the open, and he did it in a way that has no basis in truth. I believe he believe what he says, but it is an accusation that I cannot allow to stand unchallenged.

I will not be looking for support. I will ask people to please refrain from posting to the thread, although I will invite Mick to post if he chooses. And I will ask people to please refrain from taking sides. But I must set the record straight. It's my personal integrity that is being called into question here, and I want to have a chance to tell the truth.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: Gervase
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:18 AM

*oh bollocks!*
Is it the weather? Is it something in the water? Is it hormones? Whatever. Something seems to have bitten a lot of regular posters lately, and now we have Big Mick and CarolC (both of whom are liked and respected by most of us here, I'd say) threatening to part brass rags over something that - to an outsider - seems absurdly trivial.
And all that in the context of Joe's perfectly valid and personal statement that he doesn't go a bundle on touchy-feely threads for people he doesn't know. Something with which I happen to agree.
Call me a naive, sentimental idealist, but surely the point of a place like this is for us to be able to air our opinions and state honestly-held views. Bloody hell, if we all agreed with each other the Mudcat would become very tedious indeed, degenerating into a mutual wankfest where we all sat around congratulating each other on how luvverly we all were.
Carol - I've been hopping in and out of the Mudcat on an almost daily basis for the past four years, and I haven't the faintest idea what slight Mick happens to have dealt you. Most of the other regular 'Catters are probably just as ignorant. Why not let it stay that way?
Whatever the accusation, you are not diminished in my eyes; today I've called up a history of your posts and I like the person I see. You're clearly someone who loves music and who has a warm and open heart, a fine family and a view on life that I largely share.
And, in running through those threads to which you've made a valuable contribution, I can't for the life of me find any horrible accusation levelled at you - certainly nothing that lowers my opinion of you.
So walk tall and beautiful, and walk away. Mick's a fine man, too, and also blessed with a big heart. Why prepare to demean the both of you by posting something that will achieve nothing save a momentary catharsis when you hit the 'submit' button.
Bloody hell, there are people who post regularly here who I consider to be sanctimonious, pompous prats, but - bless 'em - even they add to the place. There have been occasions when, if I'd had a couple more pints or a couple more drams, I might have let rip and told XXXXXX what an arsehole I thought he was, but thank goodness I haven't.
This is not in any way addressed solely to Carol. It's more of a plea for tolerance from everyone. We should celebrate our diversity and sometime curmudgeonliness, not crap on it. Every one of us, at some stage, will say or write something that irritates someone, somewhere. (too fecking right, laddie – look at some of the shite you've written over the years!) That's life. And if anyone wants to tear my arse off over it, feel free to PM me or email me. But don't bust up the furniture round here.


That fancy coloured stuff up there - it's just me arsing around with HTML. Any resemblance to anyone, living or dead, is a pure cock-up on my part.


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Subject: RE: Dear Joe Offer et al
From: GUEST,Douglas Adams
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:05 AM

I revert to the anonymous to be constructive.

As parody has already been visited, a little more. It was the doers and the thinkers that took the bold step of searching out a new world in which they could all live, but subsequently forgot to tell the middle men where they'd moved to.

Could the musically interested move to a new Mudcat Music Only Forum, and leave this place for the other stuff? Elves would have shoot on sight carte blanche to scub any thread or posting that was not directly relevant to music. A lean time for flamers and trolls. That leaves this place free for all such activities to carry on.

Out of sight, out of mind.


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