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Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:50 PM Well, since you didn't do it Fionn, I have. Link to new thread - entitled Slums/censorship(Ani di Franco) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:13 PM I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case, EJ. Sadly in this day and age, the argument is defined by the extremes: Those people on one side that think that even though $5 trillion has been spent in the last 35 years trying to alleviate social inequalities and shown few if any meaningful results, the answer is to blindly throw more money at the problem. They're the ones who'll call you a racist if you state facts that don't support their theories. There are those on the other who feel that the solution is to ignore the problem and let everyone fend for themselves, build more jails, and everything will solve itself. They're the ones who call anyone who considers anyone a communist who agrees with anything a liberal has to say. Neither side has a forking clue, but they manage to control the debate, leaving the majority of people in the middle who try to look at things objectively with essentially no say in the matter. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:10 PM Some of the last 30-odd posts here are from people who have been around long enough to know it would have been a good idea to continue this natter in a continuation thread well before now. That convention is out of consideration for people with older machines, on which threads of 100 posts and more can be very slow to load. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:26 PM Loopy, my guess is that what you said will be seen as racial prejudice by many on this Forum. The fact that what you said is essentially true is undeniable. Topic for another thread, probably. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 02:56 PM Some censorship, as I'd see, it is big and scary, some is small and annoying, some is to be accepted as a necessary evil, some is even to be welcomed.
I suppose there's nothing illogical in defining it so it only includes the big scary examples. It's just not how I'd use it, and I doubt if I'm alone in that.
And if anyone ever asks me to siong, and then tries to compel me to sing one song rather than another, I'd say they're in then censorship business, no matter what their reasons might be. Regardless even of whether I actually agree with them or not. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:31 PM McGrath, I decided to look up "censor" and "censorship" myself, as you apparently also did. While the Webster's definition I found is not identical to the one you quote, it essentially says the same thing -- that the motivation is repressive, aimed at limiting the free expression of the party being censored. After dispensing with the first definition (magistrates of early Rome), Websters defines "censor" thus: "one who supervises conduct and morals: as a: an official who examines publications or films for objectionable matter b: an official (as in time of war) who reads communications (as letters) and deletes material considered harmful to his organization" Websters goes on to define "censorship" thus: "the actions or practices of censors; esp: censorial control exercised repressively" Again, these definitions do not seem to fit very well with the actions of the Letterman producers, who really seem to have been doing nothing more than making creative decisions about what would work best as light entertainment on a late-night show that specializes in light entertainment (best known the gap-toothed "What, Me Worry?" expression of its host, and for Stupid Pet Tricks). "Censorship," as defined by the dictionary and common parlance, tends to mean something different and potentially much more frightening, otherwise it would not be such a loaded term. And since it IS such a loaded term, I think it should be saved for those instances where its use is truly warranted. This, in my considered opinion, is not one of them. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:16 PM Bob P, Is it "scare tactics", or "statistics" that lead to the middle class leaving the cities? The two terms sound similar when you say them, and sometimes bleeding hearts can get them confused. Inner city areas have more crime, plain and simple. Black males make up 7% of the population and commit 40% of the violent crime. I've stated this in an earlier post. The way to revitalize high crime areas in cities isn't to deny the fact that it's there, or that a certain race is committing a disproportionate amout of it. The solution is to address the reasons why the crime is committed. Make teachers accountable in education. Lower the 80% illegitimacy rate. Continue on the path of successful workfare programs. Provide real assistance rather than a check every month. Establish a sense of community. Neither political party has done this when in power. Screaming racism about everything will not solve any of these problems, but will instead only serve to line the pockets of some lawyers and make everyone feel good for a while. Real change won't happen until everyone wants it to. In the meantime, people who can afford not to live in high crime areas simply won't. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM Many celebrities and performer who appear as guests on television programs have stipulations in their contracts that specify that they not be presented in a way that detracts from or in anyway undermines the public persona that they have created--even talk shows and news interview programs are told before hand what questions may an may not be asked--should an artist have to perform a song that they don't like, or especially one that doesn't reflect their talent because a producer says so? I don't think so--When the producers try to change the agreement, the talent is not obliged to fullfill their agreement to appear--Typically, when a problem like this comes up, everyone tries to make it look like the other parties were at fault--
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 11:22 AM The fact that there might be other places a song can be sung isn't the point. If you tell a singer, even in a private party that they can't sing this song but can only sing that song (I mean insist, not just request), that's an act of censorship.
It might be a perfectly reasonable act of censorship, and you might have every right or even duty to do it, but that is a completely separate matter.
"Censorship" isn't just confined to the situation where the person doing it has absolute power over all methods of communication. It just means they have power over some occasion, and use it. And they might do it for all kinds of reasons, including commercial considerations, or ethical consideratins, not just politics.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:05 AM McGrath, I don't think the Letterman producers had any intention to "suppress anything unsuitable for publication or public performance". My guess is that they don't care whether or not Ani DiFranco's songs are performed publicly. They were simply making a decision about what they wanted on their show -- and it IS their show, after all. I can't find any grand conspiracy behind this, as much as it might be gratifying to some to imagine that there is one. As I said earlier, Ani DiFranco has had no problem airing her views or getting her songs played -- I don't think the corporate media heads view her as any sort of threat. If they did, and they engaged in a calculated scheme to deny her any sort of platform in order to ensure that her songs were not heard by the public, that would be censorship. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jul 01 - 08:45 AM If you tell a singer what songs they can play or can't play on a radio station, or a TV station, or in a festival or a club, that is censorship.
Just look it up the verb "censor" in a dictionary. For example: To examine books plays etc with a view to suppressing anything unsuitable for publication, for public performance etc Sometimes people call squirrels "tree rats" because they don't like the idea of shooting squirrels. But whatever you call them they are still squirrels.
There are times when there's a case to be made for censorship. But it's dishonest for anyone to say, in relation to what they believe are such situations, "No this isn't censorship" just because censorship sounds nasty.
Whether it's legal is a completely separate issue from whether it's right. There are lots of legal things that aren't right, and illegal things that are right. In all countries. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Tiger Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:23 PM McGrath...... Get it straight, please! Woody's songs were not CENSORED, they were just not PLAYED - a supportable, and perfectly legal, station manager's position, in my view. Say what you want about the songs - personally I like about 25% of Woody's work, but likeability for sure wasn't one of the criteria. It's $$$ Are we all still missing the point here? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM the government gives you the right to speak freely.
the government gives you the right to speak freely. ??? What kind of crap is that? No government ever gave anybody the right to speak freely. Some governments try to take that right away - it's the kind of thing governments do. And so do all kinds of other people and organisations.
Of course telling a singer they can't sing a particular song is censorship. If someone wants to defend it they've got to defend it as an example of justifiable censorship, rather than shy off from using the word.
Woody Guthrie was another singer who didn't like being told to submit song lists, and get them censored. No self-respecting singer would put up with that, without feeling disgusted with themselves, if they felt they had to go along with it. (And accepting that sometimes people do have to do things that make them feel disgusted with themselves.) (And since we have had several naked GUESTs on this thread, and they don't seem to like each other, it's be a lot simpler and politer if they stuck a number after the GUEST, just for this thread. As it is I've skipped most of what they said, because it was getting confusing sorting them out. But lets not have an argument about that in here.) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:29 PM A problem with the problem of developers paving over all the cornfields? That's not the point! We're all on the same side of that. And frustration runs high that no force can combat the "green" upon which that monster thrives. Once built (by folks long gone as far as this discussion is concerned), people will come along and buy and thereby feed into the process like throwing water on gremlins. That those purchases are unwise in the eyes of a socially concerned community is well known, and also not the point of this discussion. That those purchases are the result of "scare tactics" that convince people that downtown living is dangerous and unhealthy is also well known, and not the point of this discussion. Socially offensive lyrics directed toward a group who cannot defend themselves (and probably didn't want to live on those loopdeloop streets anyway). If you think the manifestation of Dr. King's dream is a good idea, you gotta stop allowing people to profit by exploiting distinctions based soley on a particular skin hue or gender or ethnicity. Ya gotta make it intolerable - no exceptions. Or we'll never get past this thing. "Black & white" is a political thing. People don't come in two shades, they come in 12,684 shades. The difference between any two is so slight as to be indistinguishable. Racism must be seen multiculturally and condemned on all sides equally. People naturallyl and continually test the limits of acceptable behavior, then adopt those to which no shame is attached. Make racial stereotyping always unacceptable (even the rather seemingly unoffensive "asians are inscrutable") or "whites are so scared of blacks" or "blacks have a great sense of rhythm"). Says me, Bob P
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jul 01 - 05:11 PM Actually you seemed to have captured The point of the song quite nicely. I agree with you completely. You should read the rest of the thread. You will find it amusing. Protest Monkey ;) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM I'm sure you're right Jack, the cost would be more than the 5% number I tossed out there, but would it be so much that you couldn't recover it by offering homes that actually had more scenery than a brick wall between the edge of the lot and the strip mall next to it? As for me, I could never see paying $135,000 for a two bedroom 1.5 bath house that's really no more than an upper-middle class apartment with a yard. (This has probably been said a thousand times already on this thread--If so, I apologize for not reading through all of them before pouring in my $.02.) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:20 PM Hi Loopy Welcome to Mudcat! I think you have found the heart od the song. I think its more about the bulldozers. When My parents built their house, it was on a wooded piece of land. They paid extra to disturb as few trees as possible. Based upon thier experience the difference would be way more than 5% (designing landscaping and house position, building fences to account for the trees etc)What would be required is for people to pay extra NOT to live in "cookie cutter" loop de loop houses. It would take a LOT of songs to convince folks to do that.
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 23 Jul 01 - 04:03 PM One thought on the concept of suburbanizing the countryside: Land developers should be held accountable to preserve trees that don't in any way interfere with the construction of their subdivisions. In just about any major town, you can drive to the outskirts and see where bulldozers have flattened several acres of woodlands into one brownish-orange tract of land, just to put in a few dozen cookie-cutter-design houses. After they build them, they put in some grass and plant a single tree in each front yard. They could easily save half of the natural landscape AND build their houses, IF they chose to. But I guess that would require 5% more effort on their part, and time is money, right? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 23 Jul 01 - 03:52 PM You must live somewhere near me, Fortunato--I am also a liberal surburban dwelling resident of the very diverse state of Maryland--and "alarming' is a good word for the rate of growth here--We've been here for three years and it looks a lot different than when we came here--and "Little Boxes on a Hillside" they ain't, at least the little boxes that Malvina Reynolds wrote about were cute (in Daly City, just south of SF), these boxes are big and boring-- |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Fortunato Date: 23 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM I am a white liberal suburban-dweller. I don't know where Ani lives, but here in Maryland they are building subdivisions at an alarming rate. However, the people renting or buying these homes in our area are ethnically diverse. They choose to live there for several reasons. The houses are cheaper than those in low-crime areas in Washington. Many jobs are located in the suburbs. The school systems are generally better than the the city's. Living is somewhat less stressful outside of the city limits. Bulldozers are in the country around DC because of the difference in the quality of life and the availability of land, not because of racism. Racist flight doesn't work when your new neighbors are more likely to be ethnically diverse than not. I don't watch television. Things may be different where Ani lives. Act locally. Make music and friends. Regards, fortunato |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 23 Jul 01 - 02:31 PM You can sort my cutsie name out from all of the other names. And you can find my Name and Email on Mudcat AND you can send me personal messages. Also when you read a reply with this name, you'll know it is from the same person. No, Cat, she is no Phil Ochs. I hope when Letterman "Goes Green" and starts appealing to the protest song market, that there is better material available. Letterman's producers have a responsibility to that audience, advertisers and shareholders to please their audience. We may disagree with their decisions. But they even have the right to make poor decisions until they are replaced. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: LoopySanchez Date: 23 Jul 01 - 01:42 PM First point: Censorship only happens when the government attempts to silence a person's voice in music, art, film, literature, etc. When a network chooses, whether at the last minute or not, not to allow a performer a spot on it's TV show, this is not censorship, because other shows exist that she could appear on. Would it be censorship if I sent in a demo tape to Capitol Records and they said no? Would it be censorship if I sent in a letter to be published in the editorial section of the NY Times and they chose not to print it? Was it censorship when Magic Johnson's talk show got cancelled after 5 weeks? Second point: I know I'll get fire bombed to no end for this comment, but here it is: In the opening line of her song, DiFranco talks about whites bulldozing the country because they're afraid of black people. Ok, fine, can't argue with that, it's true in a lot of cases. Here's the question: When a single racial group makes up only 7% of the population (black males) but commits over 40% of the violent crime, can you blame another racial group if it has fear in it's hearts? This comment isn't to address the reasons behind the crime (80% illegitimacy, government programs that subsidize breeding, prevalence of drugs, public housing that kicks out people with success and leadership, public education that protects incompetent teachers, etc), but I do hope it will point out that there is plenty of blame to go around. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: SeanM Date: 22 Jul 01 - 08:54 PM And again - it's not CBS's responsibility to air DiFranco and/or anything she cares to perform. She was to be a guest on a commercial NON-'public awareness' show where the material is slanted to meet what the producers feel to be their target audiences' likes. Criticizing Letterman's staff for not letting DiFranco play seems nearly as pointless as criticizing the "Night at the Pops" for not allowing Motley Crue to render full symphonic orchestrations of "Shout at the Devil". An artistic/commercial decision was reached. They were under no more obligation to let her play then they were obligated to ask the people they replaced her with. Wider arguments about the "show's responsibility" to the public are specious in that they don't address the reality of this situation. Yes, in a perfect world, ALL shows would have a 'social conscience'. Well, ain't a perfect world in sight from where I'm sitting, and CBS/Letterman were perfectly within their rights. If you're a DiFranco fan, my apologies. Chances are you'll see her somewhere else. To the rest of us who really couldn't care where she plays or what she sings, why does this matter? Now - if Worldwide Pants establishes a monopoly on all worldwide broadcasting and then refuses to let anyone play anywhere in the world without their express permission, we can start talking about 'monopolies' and 'creative strangleholds' and actually MEAN something. M |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Jul 01 - 05:11 PM Yeah.........well, after following this thread for days, I keep wondering why we are all incensed for some reason over the motives of CBS, Worldwide Pants, or Ani herself. The whole discussion here has been interesting, but the reality is that in business, profit is not a dirty word. Most of us here tend to scrape by, others do better and some worse. Our mindset is more people oriented than anything else and I doubt that any of us are more interested in money than the ability to do things our own way. So when we look at the CBS types it's hard to understand their motives for doing it THEIR way because although we don't begrudge them a profit, we just would like to see them with a few less bucks and a bit more soul.(:<)) Whether it should work that way or not, it does. It's like tracing the interlocking directorates of steel companies and coal companies and telling the tale of lost mineral rights. We relinquished rights to many things, not just minerals, years ago in favor of ease and convenience........and it was inevitable under the system we established. As to the song.........yeah, well...........Phil Ochs she ain't. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 01 - 11:56 AM So if you want to know why your local radio, tv, letterman show sucks big time: This article on Letterman's production company moving into the music business: http://www.canoe.ca/TelevisionLetterman/jul9_letterman.html Viacom is who owns CBS. A revealing list of the properties: http://www.caslon.com.au/mediaprofiles/viacom.htm And finally, the answer to What Do Advertisers Have to Do With It? another revealing article on the recent "brand name advertiser pact between Viacom and Proctor and Gamble: http://www.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-6135702-0.html I challenge those defenders of Letterman's "right" to broadcast whatever Worldwide Pants feels is fit to broadcast to its audience to do a little of reading. None of these sites are corporate conspiracy sites. Just plain ole globalisation business as usual news. Letterman wants in on the younger, hipper audience it is trying to reach--hence "Ed" tv show on NBC, and other "projects" of Worldwide Pants. The MTV connection through CBS-Viacom is also central to this. Also begs the question, why is Ani courting that sort of attention, don't it? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jul 01 - 07:46 AM Hmmmmm...conundrum....asks self: ...shall I take seriously someone who masquerades on the Internet with the cutsie pseudonym of Jack the Sailor?
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 01 - 05:36 PM Charlie if a doctor tells me I'm sick, I'll listen. If a layman tells me I'm sick, He'd better back it up with facts not opinions. GUEST is logical, but the logic is not deep. I've been trying to decide if GUESTS opinions are of value to me. Since GUEST is unwilling to back them up now and since GUEST is not allowing us to get to know him or her so that we can see how credible GUEST is, then GUEST's opinions, while thought provoking aren't very useful. If you are a regular watcher of Letterman and feel deprived of Ani's protest song then by all means complain. But if you are neither, aren't Letterman's producers better positioned to know what his audience would want. Hats off to Ani for provoking some thought. I am done. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Chicken Charlie Date: 21 Jul 01 - 03:05 PM Last Guest: Amen, brother. A logical statement is logical even if a six-year-old kid makes it. I don't buy the Letterman show's lame excuse. I could easily get on a rant about even Liberal white Americans being in denial on the subject of racism, but I won't. The underlying difficulty is that solving social problems requires that we first face them, and there are too many who want "happy, fast and mindless"--come to think of it, that reminds me a lot of my first wife. Sorry, this is a serious topic. I think the Letterman people should hear from us, for all the good that will do. CC |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 01 - 02:50 PM Jack the Sailor, I think your opinions are fine. My opinions are fine. The idea that you are asking me to "justify" my opinions to you, in order to "prove" my authority to you, by revealing my job status to you, is ludicrous. If I said I was Tommy Thompson or Condoleeza Rice, would you agree with me? I don't think so. So let me ask you this: How does being a sailor qualify you to speak with authority about songwriting, poetry writing, or Ani's song? "Because it sells" is NOT the standard by which I decide what is a good or great song. Test of time, how many artists cover the song, how well it speaks to universal human experiences (rather than nagging rants to a converted choir, which is what a lot of Ani's songs do) are the standards *I* use to judge a song. If going by units sold is your standard by which you judge a song, then I'm sure this song will evenutally work well for you. Caveat: the public is not known for being excellent arbiters of taste. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST,Skip Jones Date: 21 Jul 01 - 01:10 PM I agree that media sucks... It's all owed my "Big Bucks" But it's not only letterman producers that "edit" content. Folk Festivals often choose to stay away from "political activist singers"... Arts Councils choose for mass appeal... Record companies promote artist based on sex appeal and sales, not on good material. Alas, with all our freedoms and powers we are a nation of sheep... We'll pay Letterman or some jock millions to run around with a ball, party with kids, do drugs (Green Bay Packers and others "great" athletes are known for this), and direct the economic growth of cities for their benefit and tax the people again. We do won't support the people who would see this truly be a nation of Peace & Justice for All... Use it up, waist, steal from the poor... That's what media and Big Biz is all about... They do it, promote it, and sell however they can. It's there bottom line... And we buy it lock, stock and credit card... It's not an issue of freedom of speech, it's an issue that we are stupid enough to watch the tube, buy their stupid magazine and listen to their judgment of our music... The American people deserve David Letterman and the rest of the what they have created. We select presidents that lie and steal... THey are are LEADERS? Yeah I'm fed up. Threw out the TV... Dumped the radio, canceeled the paper and terminated my support to public "Big Bucks" Radio Now I spend my time singing and playing for and with the people. No fame, no glory, no retirement...But aleast a good night's sleep and a world more in balance. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 01 - 12:34 PM I am you have taken my comments in the manner intended. Iwas worried about sounding snide.
Is this the usage of lyric intended? 2 a : expressing direct usually intense personal emotion especially in a manner suggestive of song
I said
I don't think "a good lyric poem" is what she is aiming for here. She spends the first stanza painting pictures of what she thinks is wrong then spends the rest of the song preaching at us that we should do something lest America become one big subdivision"
I think that is what she has done in the song. Is it correct? I don't know. But apparantly it sells. I will for now defer to her judgement as she is the successful songwriter/label owner and I am not. Guest Are you a successful songwriter? Publisher? Label owner? Informed opinions are more valuable that anonymous ones. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jul 01 - 08:51 AM Jack the Sailor Cliches: the "not even a mouse" and "heart cut out" and "east side/west side" all sound like cliched use of language. You need not agree with my opinion or choices. I agree the "Berlin wall" line is good--remember, I also said some things could be salvaged from the 1st stanza and used elsewhere in the song with some rearranging. Poets and songwriters do this all the time. As to the rules of lyric writing I spoke of, yes they are pretty hard and fast rules of writing a good lyric--either poem or song. A lyric song is different from a story/narrative song and has different rules. That isn't to say one can't break rules and conventions when one writes. But to do it effectively, one must first *know* the rules of lyric writing. One needn't go to Harvard for this, but if one takes their craft seriously, you do need to learn the basics. I appreciated the message of the 3rd stanza, but IMO, the third stanza doesn't fit with the imagery of the rest of the song. That is just the sort of thing you look for in rewrites--stuff that doesn't belong in the piece you are writing. I agree, its a good stanza, easily could the basis of another another song. Definitely is usuable, if she were to find another song for it. But if it were my piece--and I'm very clear about it NOT being mine, I'd lose the 3rd stanza, along with the 1st. You say that you don't think she is aiming to write a good lyric poem in this song. My answer: if she is writing a lyric song, which is the type of song this is--ie it isn't a narrative song--then the only way of judging whether it works or not is judge it as a lyric song. Are you clear about the definition of the word "lyric" as I'm using it to describe a specific type of poem/song? I don't mean "lyric" in the sense of "words to any song" as in "The lyrics to this song." As to my "fast and reckless" statement, I think I made pretty clear, when asked, that I was stating my opinion. You are, of course, free to disagree. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 21 Jul 01 - 03:35 AM Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20-Jul-01 - 05:29 PM Jack the Sailor, As to cliche ridden, I would cite pretty much the entire first stanza. Painfully so, to my poetic sensibilities. If the first stanza is cliche ridden to you, your circles of conversation are far different from mine. I've NEVER heard mainstreet compared to the Berlin Wall. or really any of the similies except for the mouse thing which is at least a little different from "a night before christmas" the big obvious rhyme with house is veiled at least. A good lyric paints an image that is clearly identifiable and sustainable throughout the entire piece. It does? that is a rule? She loses her lyric image of decaying inner city/white flight when she shifts the sentiment to a homeless person lying on the street. That stanza shifts the emotional image/listeners attention to homelessness, rather than sticking with the imagery of decaying inner city/white flight to the 'burbs. I believe that you missed her point entirely here. In speaking of the homeless person. She is saying that she, like the rest of us has learned to igore societies problems and now "walk on by" when we sould be taking action. A good lyric poem has *one* image/sentiment to be effective. The third stanza doesn't belong in this song. I don't think "a good lyric poem" is what she is aiming for here. She spends the first stanza painting pictures of what she thinks is wrong then spends the rest of the song preaching at us that we should do something lest America become one big subdivision" The ending is much stronger than the beginning, and if it was my piece, I'd cut the first and third stanzas, start with stanza 2, and move on. One might be able to salvage some of the ideas of the first stanza to extend the song, but with stanzas 2,4 & 5, with some nice bridge work and a more defined chorus, this could be a fantastic song. How do I know how she writes? Well, of course I don't know absolutely. I'm basing my opinion on the results, on a fairly extensive interview I heard with Ani on the radio about her writing process, and anecdotes of a friend of mine, who had the honor of putting Ani up many years ago, while she was at college--in the early Ani days. They had a long "writers conversation" over the dinner table after the gig I heard of second hand. Do you feel that qualifies you to make some of the criticisms that you have? I would like to value your opinion as much as Ms. DiFranco's. Obviously she values this song enough to fight for it. I doubt that she would call it hastily and recklessly written. You say that her writing is too hasty and reckless, yet you say that you like her songs. She has credentials. You do not even have a name. Very curious.... |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Art Thieme Date: 20 Jul 01 - 09:48 PM I figure that eventually she will do the Letterman show and she'll bring down the house singing "Waist Deep In The Big Muddy". History repeats, yes, but it costs twice as much every time around. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Rick Fielding Date: 20 Jul 01 - 07:20 PM Well before it does Alex, lemme squeeze my two cents (Canadian) in. I'm afraid I'd have to agree that as poetry it doesn't do much for me, but you know, if I actually HEAR the song, it might have more of an affect. Now that I've seen the lyrics, I'm not convinced that "Censorship" was neccessarily the sole reason they rejected it. Far stronger messages DO go out on the tube these days without much trouble. As far as the "message itself", I think it might have had greater impact 20 years ago (as has been mentioned). She's a good'un though. Funny and friendly too.....even borrowed my guitar (now owned by Mudcatter Willie-O) for a few songs at X-Ray's Club in Toronto a few years ago...naturally I was honoured. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:56 PM Maybe this whole thread should move over to the "historical inaccuracies in folk songs" thread. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:54 PM I suppose I should have mentioned earlier that I am not tremendously impressed with the song--it seems like it would have been an appropriate comment(though not necessarily accurate) if she had written it around 1968 when all that block busting was going on, and the real white flight actually took place--truth be told, the flight to the suburbs began a long time ago, when people wanted to own their own homes, instead of living in walk-ups and tenements, and they had enough money to do it--in the years after the big war, people tended to move en-mass, and it wasn't uncommon for urban ethnic communities to become suburban ones, churches, deli's and all--when this happened, a whole new wave of ethnic groups, including blacks, hispanics, and asians, moved in to the urban areas that had become vacant-- I guess I don't like either side in this--
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:39 PM Yup, Mousethief is right about urban plight/flight in this decade of the aughts, being much different than the 50s and 60s flight, especially regarding the cost of housing for urban poor folk. Ani misses the point of that one completely. Maybe because she hasn't ever lived the reality she is singing about? Artists get into troubles like this (I mean with poor quality lyrics) when they overreach their lived experience trying to create their images. Images are damn hard to conjur, hold, and then transmit to an audience. If you ain't authentic, it shows pretty much right away. That is what happened with this song, IMO. But Ani does write some excellent songs--I love her. Really do love her. But not to the extent that I'm willing to abandon my critical faculties to worship at her feet. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:38 PM Sorta. If you're looking at Seattle, you might call Sumner an exurb. It's very far out, and past a lot of agriculture to get here. If you're looking at Tacoma, you might call it a suburb. Or not. It's not one of those towns built by white flight. It has been here for over 100 years, and hasn't grown a whole lot since the 1960's anyway. Half of the town acre-wise is still farmed (we grow sod for suburbanites! Ironic, huh?). My wife and I chose to move here because (1) the housing was affordable to us, and (2) the schools were good (if a bit white-bread). Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:32 PM Also odd that the line "Nothing is stirring not even a mouse?" Apparantly the black folks left as well.... and the rodents. Alex, do you live in the burbs? :) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM Jack the Sailor, As to cliche ridden, I would cite pretty much the entire first stanza. Painfully so, to my poetic sensibilities. A good lyric paints an image that is clearly identifiable and sustainable throughout the entire piece. She loses her lyric image of decaying inner city/white flight when she shifts the sentiment to a homeless person lying on the street. That stanza shifts the emotional image/listeners attention to homelessness, rather than sticking with the imagery of decaying inner city/white flight to the 'burbs. A good lyric poem has *one* image/sentiment to be effective. The third stanza doesn't belong in this song. The ending is much stronger than the beginning, and if it was my piece, I'd cut the first and third stanzas, start with stanza 2, and move on. One might be able to salvage some of the ideas of the first stanza to extend the song, but with stanzas 2,4 & 5, with some nice bridge work and a more defined chorus, this could be a fantastic song. How do I know how she writes? Well, of course I don't know absolutely. I'm basing my opinion on the results, on a fairly extensive interview I heard with Ani on the radio about her writing process, and anecdotes of a friend of mine, who had the honor of putting Ani up many years ago, while she was at college--in the early Ani days. They had a long "writers conversation" over the dinner table after the gig I heard of second hand. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:27 PM ONE line in the song about racism. It is strange that she characterizes it as anti racist in the press release. I guess anti-bulldozer doesn't make the papers. Alex, I agree with you to the extent that making it about racism blunts the effectiveness of the song. Your analysis is quite valid. But there are people for whom racism is a reason for fleeing the city. It may not be universal, but it is still there; in places I have lived. Its probably worth a song. Protest songs are supposed to make us think. They are not meant to be definitive analyses. If I were to write a social commentary that provoked even the amout of thought that I have seen in this thread. I wouldn't consider it a flop. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Kim C Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:26 PM I live in a suburban area that has a very large minority population, including blacks, Hispanics, and Asians. They didn't want to live in the city either. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:06 PM In Seattle the city is having a series of discussions to find solutions to the urban flight problem. The problem here, however, is that people can't afford to live in the city. The housing (both houses and apartments) is so much cheaper in the burbs, that people with lower-income jobs in the city have to live outside of Seattle and commute in. Just a little twist on the assumptions Ani brings to this. GUEST, I'm not saying white people aren't responsible for uban flight -- at least SOME white people. The problem is (1) castigating all white people for the sins of some (this is called "racism") and (2) ascribing motives to them that may or may not be the case (hatred of blacks? how about hatred of crime? hatred of crumbling infrastructure? hatred of piss-poor schools?). Yeah, the urban flight of the 1950s may have been racially based. In part, anyway. The urban flight of the 2000's is a different animal. That's my point. The urban flighters of the 1950's are all in retirement homes and most probably don't listen to folk music of the Ani Difranco sort. The urban flighters of the 2000's can hear the song and go, "that was my parents, that's not me." The song is thus a total flop as social commentary. IMHO, of course! Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:00 PM It is a good lyric the sentiments hit a lot of chords with me. But I wouldn't play it for a suburban audience. The song is about the growth of subdivisions at the expense of inner cities. She is also making a clever little pun by implying that subdivisions are dividing the country into black and white, have and have not. While you may or may not agree with all the details, what she is saying has enough truth to be expressed as her opinion in a song. It is as articulate as any lyric I have ever read. She makes her point clearly and rather poetically. I don't see any over abundance of cliches. GUEST I am always interested in learning about songwriting please tell us how you know this "she writes too fast and recklessly." And please tell us just how much speed and recklessness is the right amount. |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:51 PM Well Mousethief, I think white people are responsible for urban/suburban sprawl in the US, so I don't think the target is wrong. I think her lack of articulateness here is the problem, especially her confrontational opening line. Pretty much her stock in trade though. If she wants to challenge people to stay in the city to revitalize it, I think she is going about it the wrong way, certainly. If you knock people out with your art by clubbing them repeatedly over the head, they often pass out and can't hear anything you say. I'd say this song, like some of Ani's other naive folkie "political" songs, just doesn't work. It doesn't do the job she gave it to do. So perhaps I should give the producers the benefit of the doubt here, for having better taste than Ani! ;) |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:22 PM It sure seems like she thinks all white people are responsible for the destruction of her pet dream "country road" exurbs. If she were black, I'd call this song racism. Since she's white, I guess it could be called "latent self-loathing" or something. Perhaps what the people she so despises are afraid of are things like crime and bad schools. And hey, guess what, black people live in the suburbs, too! And they leave the inner city for the same reasons white folk do. It seems like a song designed to make people hate each other, not to solve any problems.
"Some people might prefer action Alex |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM Thanks Mousethief, I hadn't thought of posting the song. Well, Bob P...I can't see where you got your spin of the song from, though I respect your right to interpret it that way. I see it a bit differently. Cliche ridden, as too much of Ani's stuff is because she writes too fast and recklessly. But I believe she hails from Buffalo, and the song is about so-called "white flight". I didn't interpret the part about "the country" as you refer to it, as a negative assessment of rural folk at all. Rather, it strikes me as a pretty naive folkie projection of rural romanticism onto suburban sprawl. Not a very articulate piece, is it? |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: mousethief Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM subdivision
white people are so scared of black people
and i'm wondering what it will take
i remember the first time i saw someone
so we're led by denial like lambs to the slaughter
i'm wondering what it will take |
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Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:05 PM The Boston Globe picked up the story today. Brief blurb from the Living/Arts section: Letterman gig came with a price Folk singer Ani DiFranco was supposed to play on ''Late Night With David Letterman '' last night, but, her people say, it was cancel ed following ''conflicts between the artist's stated intentions and the program's expectations of her.'' She wanted to play ''Subdivision,'' a song about racism in urban America that begins ''White people are so scared of black people.'' A week before the taping, Letterman's people insisted DiFranco perform ''Heartbreak Even,'' about a stalled relationship, which they considered more ''upbeat.'' DiFranco, whose self-owned record company is called Righteous Babe, opted out as ''a matter of principle and privilege of her hard-earned independence.'' |
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