Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:02 PM

Hi, UB Dan! Thanks for the very kind greeting!

Toaster industry? You don't say. This would explain the voices that only appear in my head when I'm toasting.

So the hot dog vendor gives the Buddhist a Chicago Style dog, and the Buddhist gives him a fiver. The vendor pockets the bill and starts to help another customer. "Um, what about my change?" asks the Buddhist. "Aaaah," replies the vendor, "Change must come from within."

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:04 PM

KimC says:

"Of course, my judgment could be skewed from the prescription antihistamine I take..."

There you go! Now that's the crack...

Jaysus people, lighten up.

This ain't brain surgery, though I do appreciate how unfortunate that is for some of you...

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM

I meant they have no moral, ethical, humanitarian, or free-speech related obligation. Now a legal obligation is another thing entirely, and if you're right that the song was submitted, approved, then yanked at last minute, Ms DiFranco probably has ground for action in a court of law.

I also believe that the forums for public exposure of new or revolutionary material are shrinking, and I don't like it. When I mentioned the Smothers Bros Show before, I mentioned it in part because the revoutionary, new material they were trying to present was seen as dangerous by the Networks, but the mood of the time and the desire of the emerging new audience was for just such material. The Networks were caught in a Catch 22. You had the Establishment selling Anti-establishment product. You had to love their quandary.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM

No, I don't think it's toasters... I bet the Trilateral Commission and DiFranco and Letterman are all involved in the bread machine industry with Wal-Mart.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM

My bread machine "walked" off the counter and fell onto the floor. Is that part of the conspiracy?

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:18 PM

Hmmmm... maybe it was possessed...

Not having cable, I am a PBS junkie. It never fails to astound me that nudity and profanity can be seen and heard on public television, but I don't think I have heard the word "bullshit" on NBC, CBS, or ABC.

It seems to me that public television might be a possible outlet for the kind of material Leej is talking about. Now, who wants to write the grant so we can get the money to make the show?

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:27 PM

I've seen Letterman do a lot of strange things for ratings. I still contend that from the show's point of view, it was about ratings. That is the way they have behaved in the past. that is the way I expect them to continue.

You think that, just possibly the "Post" may be stirring things up for the sake of controversy?

LJ. Your point about the Smothers is well taken. But realistically Didn't the network hire THEM to entertain?

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:31 PM

I did love their quandry, just as I love the quandry that CBS has apparently put itself in. And we are certainly in agreement that forums for revolutionary/radically different material on the public airwaves and in privately owned media are shrinking, while the allowable content for vulgarity and yellow journalism is expanding at a rate faster than the expansion of the known universe...

But the airwaves, the public *can* do something about if a large enough consensus can be reached to broaden the concept of networks legal obligation to provide "public service" programming to include more open access to a diversity of views and perspectives. At the same time, there would also have to be a considerable sea change of opinion on "community standards", since the community that gets to decide what standards will hold across the board are such narrow minded sons of bitches.

I agree, there is only a legal obligation in this instance, and I don't feel it is A Big Thing in the larger scheme of First Amendment and free speech battles.

I also think Ani can handle the Big Boys, as she has demonstrated so well in the past.

But I do judge what CBS did as political censorship, pure and simple. And of course, I'm not the least bit surprised by it--more bemused, and curious to see how it all sorts itself out in the long run.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 04:40 PM

Ah yes, the GUEST who uses the short one-line statements seperated by a blank line. We meet yet again...what is this, the 5th, 6th time you caused trouble? Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 07:55 PM

Guest or not, that was a pretty good post.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: SeanM
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:18 PM

After reading the thread (admittedly skipping the anonyGUEST posts - too many trolls to waste time with them on the 'cat lately), I still don't see where the Letterman show is obligated to have DiFranco perform, or to let her perform what song she wishes, use what language she desires or what have you.

Letterman's show is not a platform that claims to offer 'free speech'. It is a promotional vehicle that also offers entertainment. Unless you're using the idealist argument that EVERY program on TV is required "by humanity" or what have you to offer complete and biased views, there isn't a rationale to criticize the show's decision beyond "I'm a fan (or a supporter, or a crank, or whatever), and my opinion is that I don't like their decision".

Personally, as described, I believe that the Letterman staff was trying to 'punch up' the end of the show. Realistically, DiFranco could give the most impassioned and moving performance of her life, and 99.9% of the crowd (and the viewing audience) wouldn't think anything more than "Well, that's depressing. What else is on/Where can I go now?" and forget about Ani, her performance, and the message therein.

While there IS a case to be made in the larger view for that .1% that would be reached by the song, Letterman's show isn't for that .1%. It's for the majority who buy the sponsor's goods, and who tune in to the show at home to watch. Their decision (for better or worse) sounds like they were just trying to do what they felt would be more 'entertaining' to the majority.

M

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Tiger
Date: 19 Jul 01 - 10:37 PM

Don't any of you know what you're talking about?

It's CBS' right to air whatever they want, for whatever reason. What Ani wants to say is irrelevant. CBS writes the check - they can buy whatever they want and yes, they CAN tell the performer what to sing.

If they shout "Fire" in the theater, they have a problem, and if they libel someone, they have a problem. But it's still their right to play whatever they want. They run the show.

Personally, I hope they play the most wanted or popular stuff (OK - 'popular' by who's standard?), and don't mind having my own personal beliefs questioned or challenged. But if they choose to exclude (or INCLUDE, for that matter) a song based on their own idea of how it will sell in Peoria, that's still their call.

Isn't CBS allowed to express opinions that are different from yours? Come on, open your minds, read the law!

Truth be told, Ani DiFranco has no RIGHT to appear on CBS.

.......Tiger (certainly not a CBS fan, but I know what's right)

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:19 AM

Having worked for the networks (yes, they are owned by big corporations)you should keep in mind that the Letterman show is produced by LETTERMAN'S production company Worldwide Pants FOR CBS. It doesn't sound like this is a case of a CBS censor, rather a producer of the Letterman show making his or her own creative decision about what they want on the show. The CBS censor didn't have an opportunity to say yes or no.

I host a radio program. I will publicly say that I won't play anything from Paul Schaeffer on my program because he is too "pop" and I want something a little more "sedate". Did I just censor Paul Schaeffer or did I make a creative decision about MY radio program?

By the way, Ani Difranco has an open invitation to come on my show - and she can read the phonebook if she would like.

Ron Olesko

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:33 AM

The networks are monopolies--plain and simple--you couldn't start broadcasting television programing if you wanted to--because the federal gov't has granted exclusive rights to a bunch of broadcasters, and they are exclusively contracted to one of the Networks. Can't quite see why people take such delight in the fact that they do pretty much what they want on airwaves that, at least theoretically, belong to us all.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:32 PM

M.Ted -

If it was plain and simple, then I guess you also have a monopoply on the facts. I don't think so. It isn't a simple as saying that networks are monopolies, especially when you have CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, Fox, and even UPN as "monopolies". Granted it isn't a simple matter to start your own network - nor is it simple to set up your own airport or railroad.

Each networks owns X number of TV stations. In addition to the O & O's (owned and operated), the networks have contracts with "affiliates" who carry the particular network program - based upon mutually agreed upon terms. These affiliates have the opportunity to switch networks - which happens on a steady basis. The networks do compete to be carried. That is why the Big 3 reach more households then UPN and FOX, although their numbers are increasing.

Theoretically the airwaves do belong to us all. That is why station licenses come up for renewal. Those public service announcements that stations legally run offer the public an opportunity to take that license away IF they can prove that the station is not operating in the public interest. Station licenses DO get challenged and they DO get revoked. Check out F.C.C. records - or simply pick up a copy of Broadcasting and Cable and you will see for yourself.

The people that do run the networks, and believe me - from first hand experience I can tell you that they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed, are trying to provide programming that appeals to their audience. Often that means appealing to the lowest common denominator. They program according to their opinions - something that each of us has. Until the time comes that everyone gets their own TV or radio show, we have to respect their opinion.

Again, this topic started with Ani DiFranco. She clearly wasn't censored - just the victim of some producer's idea of what is entertainment.

Ron Olesko

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: RichM
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 12:36 PM

It's easy to make jokes about prozac--or about any medication. It's done in ignorance about the value of such medications in treating illness.

But since it's done in ignorance, the comments merely serve to underline that ignorance.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:11 PM

Over the years I have worked for five different radio stations (variously as announcer, traffic reporter, copy writer, newscaster, news director, and producer), two of which were network affiliates. Ron Olesko knows what he's talking about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:11 PM

Wasn't able to remain awake through Letterman (God, how DO people stand it?), but once through with monologues and other non-guest banter, no mention was made of the cancellation.

From:

www.righteousbabe.com/news/latebreaking.html

the following:

07.17.01 TV PEOPLE ARE SO SCARED OF FOLKSINGERS: ANI DIFRANCO'S RETURN TO LATE SHOW IS CANCELLED

Ani's previously announced July 19, 2001 performance on Late Show with David Letterman has been cancelled following conflicts between the artist's stated intentions and the program's expectations of her.

The appearance was to have been her second on the show. In March, Ani was asked for a list of three songs she might perform. The song she ultimately chose from the list, "Subdivision," has been a staple of her recent concerts and is one of the most-discussed tracks on her latest album, Revelling/Reckoning. The lyrics of the song examine the prevalence of racism in urban America and its devastating impact on the landscape of cities nationwide. The opening line states the matter bluntly yet eloquently: "White people are so scared of black people."

A week before the taping, however, representatives of the program insisted that Ani instead perform "Heartbreak Even" because its portrait of a stalled relationship was considered more "upbeat." As viewers of the Late Show are well aware and as the producers have admitted, songs featured on the program in the past have reflected a wide range of tempos, but evidently "Subdivision" was not to be one of them. Requests to reschedule the appearance for a time when its tempo might better fit the show were denied, leaving only one conclusion: that the beat of the music stirred up less trouble than the words of the song.

As a matter of principle and a privilege of her hard-earned independence, Ani does not perform songs on demand, whether the demand comes from the producer of a television program, an audience member at one of her concerts, or even her own management. Faced with a choice between playing something "upbeat" yet apolitical or not playing at all, Ani chose the latter. Both Ani and Righteous Babe regret any disappointment this decision causes viewers and fans.

CLICK HERE to read the lyrics THE LATE SHOW didn't want you to hear.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:16 PM

Sorry, forgot to add the site for registering righeousbabe indignations:

http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/clubhouse/email_us/

Good on ya, Ani!

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:18 PM

The purpose of commercial television is to sell a product to a customer for a price.

The product is your attention.

The customer is the advertiser.

The price is whatever the going rate is for advertising, based on the popularity of a show.

Period.

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:28 PM

Mousethief...

...so how much did you sell your soul for anyway?

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM

I don't understand your comment, Guest.

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:33 PM

That doesn't surprise me Mousethief...

...hope you got a good deal on it, cuz its gonna have to last you awhile.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:34 PM

Alex - you are right, but I'm not sure what point you are making. Commercial (and non-commercial TV) have TWO customers - the advertiser (or for non-commercial TV - the underwriter and donors) AND the viewer. If the network cannot deliver compelling programming that will capture viewers, the advertiser won't be selling their spots.

I'm not sure who you consider the villan - the network, the advertiser, or the consumer who enjoys watching crap. Perhaps we are all guilty.

It would be a wonderful world if we could have the choice of programming that will compel, motivate, inform, and entertain. Let's not lose sight of the fact that there ARE programs that do that. TV is a business and they operate on the same principles that we all do in order to make a living. Supply and demand. Trust me, even non-profit groups have the same burdens.

Ron Olesko

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:39 PM

In addition

The purpose of Ani's Website is to sell a product to a customer for a price.

The product is Ani.

The customer is the web surfer.

The price is whatever the going rate is for advertising, based on the popularity of Ani and the number of hits it can get based on story content.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:51 PM

By the way, I have tremendous respect for Ani DiFranco and I admire the fact that she wouldn't perform on Letterman. She is an inspiration to musicians to stick up for their own vision. I play her music and will continue to play her music, and I will defend the RIGHT to be able to play her music. I use the word "RIGHT" instead of "obligation".

However, as my previous posts have alluded - I don't find fault with the Letterman production group decision. They have every right to program the show they way they see fit.

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned - the Letterman show falls in the domain of Entertainment programming. There are specific rules and regulations for public affairs and news programs. Letterman did not violate any of them.

To me it seemed like a bad fit from the start. Let's admit it - Ani's reasons for appearing on a show had to be commercial to begin with - selling records or concert appearances - or herself. She chose to appear in the first place, knowing what kind of program it is.

Yes, it would have been great to see an artist like Ani give the Letterman audience a wakeup call - but in reality the normal Letterman audience probably would have chosen that moment to go to the refrigerator and open another Budweiser as soon as they heard the topic of the song. The Letterman audience is more interested in watching stupid human tricks instead of stopping the tricks of stupid humans.

Ani can appear on my radio show at any time and sing whaterver she wants!

Ron Olesko

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 01:55 PM

Shame on me for feeding the troll.

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 02:36 PM

My point, as ever, is simple, and that is, the system that you are explaining above, which I don't contest in the least, is wrong--no particular reason why we should have to defer to the judgements in taste of the execs at the big multimedia conglomerates, and no reason why the broadcast needs of our communities should suffer because of the financial needs of those corporations--

The regulation of broadcast media has been sigificantly loosened, they radio stations no longer have to provide news of any kind, and the public service obligation is often satisfied with a series of public affairs programs that run on sunday mornings, often between 6 and 7 am (I know about this all to well, since one of my jobs used to be to call in with questions for the unlucky guests who were roped in--live "spontaneous and unrehearsed" radio being cheaper than taping a scripted show at a more humane hour)

Don, you can also tell us that, owing to deregulation, the jobs that you have had are much fewer and farther between than ever.

I am not one of those people who hate TV or radio, or whatever, I actually like Jerry Springer and Geraldo and Fox News, what I don't like is that fewer and fewer people have control, and there is less accountability than ever--

Incidentally, the public broadcasting people are as bad, if not worse, than the commercial radio people.

Ron, for the record, I have been closely involved with both commercial and public broadcast--the kind of programming that you are involved in has a much greater potential audience than anyone wants to let on--not only is there a good sized audience, there is a great potential for advertising and sponsorship revenues--the problem is that it requires hands-on management, not the kind of cookie-cutter, chain-store type management that is necessary for the conglomerates to make money-

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 02:59 PM

I read the lyrics. They are interesting and I like them but they are NOT appropriate to a Letterman audience. They are a lot more than antiracist. It is a condemnation of the whole surburban/consumer ways of life. She gave Letterman's producers an ultimatum. "Let me insult your audience or I won't play." She submitted three songs to them but insisted that she would only play one of them!

"As a matter of principle and a privilege of her hard-earned independence, Ani does not perform songs on demand, whether the demand comes from the producer of a television program, an audience member at one of her concerts, or even her own management"

It wouldn't have killed her to do a more appropriate song so that her fans would get a chance to see her. Don't get me wrong, I like her music. But I won't be writing CBS to complain. In this case her statements and actions remind me more of a spoiled diva than a righteous folksinger.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:06 PM

The purpose of the media (the mass corporate media that "provides" the vast amount of disinfotainment) is to provide audiences to advertisers. Any entertainer that shakes up the complacency of the audience, distracting them from the upcoming commercial, interferes with that function. Since much of Ani's aim is to make people think outside the box, it's only natural that the corporate execs would have a problem with some of Ani's material. This is not overt censorship, but a structural form. If it's not an innocous product and easy to sell to millions of mindless consumers, then the corporate media shuns it.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:12 PM

There is an interesting debate going on about his right now in rec.music.artists.ani (or whatever).

Early on in this thread, I said I thought it was a manipulative and pretty cynical thing that Ani was doing, and I felt it was being done as a media savvy publicity stunt.

I still stand by that statment, despite the fact I believe that what the Powers That Be who made the final decision about "which song to tell her to play" were idiots because they would come off as being incredibly heavy handed.

And I do believe the problem they had with the song was the political content of the song. By telling Ani she had to sing a different song, they *are* trying to dictate something they shouldn't have any say in, on principle.

Every artist who appears on one of these shows should always have the right to perform whatever they like. If producers and nervous network nillies can't handle some of that artist's song list, then they shouldn't book them to begin with.

I stand my ground, this was political censorship of the most insidious kind--the kind that no one really gives a shit about. Or at least, not enough to do anything about it.

As someone in that other newsgroup said--SNL would have let her play it, and the late night audiences for the two shows can't have that different of demographics.

If the audience (or is it really about the advertisers, which is what I suspect its about in this case) on SNL can handle overtly political stuff--well, OK, so SNL censored Rage Against the Machine's second song, so they ain't entirely innocent either--then why not the Letterman weenies?

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:25 PM

M.Ted - Also for the record, in addition to my years working at a non-commerical radio station - mainly as a "hobby", I have been gainfully employed in the television industry - both network, cable and DBS.

There is no right or wrong answers with this debate. De-regulation, which was long sought after by both broadcasters and the public, has proven to be a double-edged sword.

Ron

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:28 PM

Guest -

Again we disagree. I argue that just as Ani is an artist, so are the producers of the show. The Executive Producer has every right to determine what the content should be of an ENTERTAINMENT show. Call it censorship if you like, it is just as much a creative decision as the decision Ani made to record and perform the song.

Ron

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:33 PM

And another thing!

Letterman producers/network nillies can't have it both ways either. If you book Ani, you get Ani singing what Ani wants to sing, or you don't get Ani.

Just as it should be. Desperately out of touch mid-level production personnel shouldn't be predicting guest's set list. Period.

They don't like a song the artist does, then they shouldn't book the act and try and dictate what they perform to please the advertisers.

You all do know, they want to book acts who have big hits and/or a specific audience. The idea that Letterman's audience wouldn't include people who might like Ani flies in the face of the logic of what went before.

Clearly, there are some Letterman advertisers who want access to Ani's audience. So why'd they choke this time, hmmmmm?

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: BobP
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 03:40 PM

She singles out a group based on a particular skin hue and implies something about their lack of character?

If that's the case, That's not backlash racism, r reverse racism, baby that's the true article!

Its getting a bit less common, thank goodness, so be sure you recognize it when you see it.

If those country seeking bulldoserfolk move in next to African American Folk (yes, they move from innercity dwellings too) ask her if that was motivated by racism or perhaps better air for their kids to breath.

I know folkies who live in what could be described as "country", (not to mention that Hillary gave it a try) who would be very offended to be publicly branded a racist.

I hope Ms. DeFranco's sweeping characterizations will be remembered if she ever decides to seek the tranquility of a rural lifestyle.

Any mudcatters live in the "country?"

I say let's let those with besmirched characters have the floor.

Bob P

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:05 PM

The Boston Globe picked up the story today. Brief blurb from the Living/Arts section:

Letterman gig came with a price

Folk singer Ani DiFranco was supposed to play on ''Late Night With David Letterman '' last night, but, her people say, it was cancel ed following ''conflicts between the artist's stated intentions and the program's expectations of her.'' She wanted to play ''Subdivision,'' a song about racism in urban America that begins ''White people are so scared of black people.'' A week before the taping, Letterman's people insisted DiFranco perform ''Heartbreak Even,'' about a stalled relationship, which they considered more ''upbeat.'' DiFranco, whose self-owned record company is called Righteous Babe, opted out as ''a matter of principle and privilege of her hard-earned independence.''

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:08 PM

subdivision

white people are so scared of black people
they bulldoze out to the country
and put up houses on little loop-dee-loop streets
and while america gets its heart cut right out of its chest
the berlin wall still runs down main street
separating east side from west
and nothing is stirring, not even a mouse
in the boarded-up stores and the broken-down houses
so they hang colorful banners off all the street lamps
just to prove they got no manners
no mercy and no sense

and i'm wondering what it will take
for my city to rise
first we admit our mistakes
then we open our eyes
the ghosts of old buildings are haunting parking lots
in the city of good neighbors that history forgot

i remember the first time i saw someone
lying on the cold street
i thought: i can't just walk past here
this can't just be true
but i learned by example
to just keep moving my feet
it's amazing the things that we all learn to do

so we're led by denial like lambs to the slaughter
serving empires of style and carbonated sugar water
and the old farm road's a four-lane that leads to the mall
and our dreams are all guillotines waiting to fall

i'm wondering what it will take
for my country to rise
first we admit our mistakes
and then we open our eyes
or nature succumbs to one last dumb decision
and america the beautiful
is just one big subdivision

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:14 PM

Thanks Mousethief, I hadn't thought of posting the song.

Well, Bob P...I can't see where you got your spin of the song from, though I respect your right to interpret it that way.

I see it a bit differently.

Cliche ridden, as too much of Ani's stuff is because she writes too fast and recklessly.

But I believe she hails from Buffalo, and the song is about so-called "white flight". I didn't interpret the part about "the country" as you refer to it, as a negative assessment of rural folk at all. Rather, it strikes me as a pretty naive folkie projection of rural romanticism onto suburban sprawl.

Not a very articulate piece, is it?

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:22 PM

It sure seems like she thinks all white people are responsible for the destruction of her pet dream "country road" exurbs. If she were black, I'd call this song racism. Since she's white, I guess it could be called "latent self-loathing" or something.

Perhaps what the people she so despises are afraid of are things like crime and bad schools. And hey, guess what, black people live in the suburbs, too! And they leave the inner city for the same reasons white folk do.

It seems like a song designed to make people hate each other, not to solve any problems.

"Some people might prefer action
but give me a folk song any day!"
--Tom Lehrer

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 04:51 PM

Well Mousethief, I think white people are responsible for urban/suburban sprawl in the US, so I don't think the target is wrong.

I think her lack of articulateness here is the problem, especially her confrontational opening line. Pretty much her stock in trade though.

If she wants to challenge people to stay in the city to revitalize it, I think she is going about it the wrong way, certainly.

If you knock people out with your art by clubbing them repeatedly over the head, they often pass out and can't hear anything you say.

I'd say this song, like some of Ani's other naive folkie "political" songs, just doesn't work. It doesn't do the job she gave it to do.

So perhaps I should give the producers the benefit of the doubt here, for having better taste than Ani! ;)

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:00 PM

It is a good lyric the sentiments hit a lot of chords with me. But I wouldn't play it for a suburban audience.

The song is about the growth of subdivisions at the expense of inner cities. She is also making a clever little pun by implying that subdivisions are dividing the country into black and white, have and have not. While you may or may not agree with all the details, what she is saying has enough truth to be expressed as her opinion in a song. It is as articulate as any lyric I have ever read. She makes her point clearly and rather poetically.

I don't see any over abundance of cliches.

GUEST I am always interested in learning about songwriting please tell us how you know this

"she writes too fast and recklessly."

And please tell us just how much speed and recklessness is the right amount.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:06 PM

In Seattle the city is having a series of discussions to find solutions to the urban flight problem. The problem here, however, is that people can't afford to live in the city. The housing (both houses and apartments) is so much cheaper in the burbs, that people with lower-income jobs in the city have to live outside of Seattle and commute in. Just a little twist on the assumptions Ani brings to this.

GUEST, I'm not saying white people aren't responsible for uban flight -- at least SOME white people. The problem is (1) castigating all white people for the sins of some (this is called "racism") and (2) ascribing motives to them that may or may not be the case (hatred of blacks? how about hatred of crime? hatred of crumbling infrastructure? hatred of piss-poor schools?).

Yeah, the urban flight of the 1950s may have been racially based. In part, anyway. The urban flight of the 2000's is a different animal. That's my point. The urban flighters of the 1950's are all in retirement homes and most probably don't listen to folk music of the Ani Difranco sort. The urban flighters of the 2000's can hear the song and go, "that was my parents, that's not me."

The song is thus a total flop as social commentary. IMHO, of course!

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:26 PM

I live in a suburban area that has a very large minority population, including blacks, Hispanics, and Asians. They didn't want to live in the city either.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:27 PM

ONE line in the song about racism. It is strange that she characterizes it as anti racist in the press release. I guess anti-bulldozer doesn't make the papers. Alex, I agree with you to the extent that making it about racism blunts the effectiveness of the song. Your analysis is quite valid. But there are people for whom racism is a reason for fleeing the city. It may not be universal, but it is still there; in places I have lived. Its probably worth a song. Protest songs are supposed to make us think. They are not meant to be definitive analyses.

If I were to write a social commentary that provoked even the amout of thought that I have seen in this thread. I wouldn't consider it a flop.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM

Jack the Sailor,

As to cliche ridden, I would cite pretty much the entire first stanza. Painfully so, to my poetic sensibilities.

A good lyric paints an image that is clearly identifiable and sustainable throughout the entire piece.

She loses her lyric image of decaying inner city/white flight when she shifts the sentiment to a homeless person lying on the street. That stanza shifts the emotional image/listeners attention to homelessness, rather than sticking with the imagery of decaying inner city/white flight to the 'burbs.

A good lyric poem has *one* image/sentiment to be effective. The third stanza doesn't belong in this song.

The ending is much stronger than the beginning, and if it was my piece, I'd cut the first and third stanzas, start with stanza 2, and move on. One might be able to salvage some of the ideas of the first stanza to extend the song, but with stanzas 2,4 & 5, with some nice bridge work and a more defined chorus, this could be a fantastic song.

How do I know how she writes? Well, of course I don't know absolutely.

I'm basing my opinion on the results, on a fairly extensive interview I heard with Ani on the radio about her writing process, and anecdotes of a friend of mine, who had the honor of putting Ani up many years ago, while she was at college--in the early Ani days. They had a long "writers conversation" over the dinner table after the gig I heard of second hand.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:32 PM

Also odd that the line "Nothing is stirring not even a mouse?" Apparantly the black folks left as well.... and the rodents. Alex, do you live in the burbs? :)

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:38 PM

Sorta. If you're looking at Seattle, you might call Sumner an exurb. It's very far out, and past a lot of agriculture to get here. If you're looking at Tacoma, you might call it a suburb. Or not. It's not one of those towns built by white flight. It has been here for over 100 years, and hasn't grown a whole lot since the 1960's anyway. Half of the town acre-wise is still farmed (we grow sod for suburbanites! Ironic, huh?). My wife and I chose to move here because (1) the housing was affordable to us, and (2) the schools were good (if a bit white-bread).

Alex

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:39 PM

Yup, Mousethief is right about urban plight/flight in this decade of the aughts, being much different than the 50s and 60s flight, especially regarding the cost of housing for urban poor folk. Ani misses the point of that one completely. Maybe because she hasn't ever lived the reality she is singing about? Artists get into troubles like this (I mean with poor quality lyrics) when they overreach their lived experience trying to create their images.

Images are damn hard to conjur, hold, and then transmit to an audience. If you ain't authentic, it shows pretty much right away. That is what happened with this song, IMO.

But Ani does write some excellent songs--I love her. Really do love her. But not to the extent that I'm willing to abandon my critical faculties to worship at her feet.

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:54 PM

I suppose I should have mentioned earlier that I am not tremendously impressed with the song--it seems like it would have been an appropriate comment(though not necessarily accurate) if she had written it around 1968 when all that block busting was going on, and the real white flight actually took place--truth be told, the flight to the suburbs began a long time ago, when people wanted to own their own homes, instead of living in walk-ups and tenements, and they had enough money to do it--in the years after the big war, people tended to move en-mass, and it wasn't uncommon for urban ethnic communities to become suburban ones, churches, deli's and all--when this happened, a whole new wave of ethnic groups, including blacks, hispanics, and asians, moved in to the urban areas that had become vacant--

I guess I don't like either side in this--

Subject: RE: Ani DiFranco Song Censored on Letterman?
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Jul 01 - 05:56 PM

Maybe this whole thread should move over to the "historical inaccuracies in folk songs" thread.

Alex