Origin of British Isles songs

Subject: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GUEST,Molly T
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:11 PM

Does anyone know of a reliable, easy to search website that would help me figure out from what country in the British Isles certain songs are from? Thanks!

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:18 PM

if it's a short list - the easiest thing might be to ask here.

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:19 PM

I don't know of a reliable one, Molly, (though I can think of an unreliable one!) but if you want to post a list here I'll see what I can do!

Noreen

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 12:25 PM

:0)

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GUEST,THE GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 01:03 PM

Noreen,

Which 'unreliable' site were you thinking of?

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 01:44 PM

Noreen isn't unreliable(!), and certainly I bet she can give you loads of useful information.

Eric

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GUEST,Molly T
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:00 PM

Haven't actually looked at any sites, reliable or unreliable! Here's the songs I'm not sure of. Anyone?

Wee Be Soldiers Three (Cho-We be soldiers three, Pardonnez-moi, je vous emprie, Lately come forth of the low country, With never a penny of money)

Next Market Day (Cho-Sit down beside me, I mean you no harm. Sit down beside me, this new tune to learn, Here are three guineas your mama to pay, So lay by your yarn till the next market day.

No, John, No (1st verse-On yonder hill there lives a maiden, But her name I do not know. I will court her for her beauty, will she answer yes or no? No John No, No John No, No John, No John, No John No.

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:03 PM

English, Irish version of older English song, English

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: pavane
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:06 PM

I don't think anyone could give a definitive answer. Looking through the forums and ballad collections, many songs I thought of as Irish appear to have English origins, like Wild Rover (Norfolk), Black Velvet Band (Barking, near London, C1820), Curragh of Kildare (c1800), the list is very long! There are certainly versions of Oh No John dating back 300 years or more. See Bruce Olson's web site index of broadsides etc, and the Bodley Ballads (blickies available eslewhere)

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GUEST,(another one)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:28 PM

Agree with pavane; it's very difficult to get a definitive annswer - and quite often when you think you've got one, you can dig up an earlier ref. which changes things.Cecil Sharp claimed 'No, John' as English, but quoted eight variants.

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:49 PM

I would say guest probably has it pretty close

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GUEST,Molly T
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:53 PM

Thanks everyone!

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 07:02 PM

Molly. The Oxford Song Book notes on the song "We Be Soldiers Three" state: From Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia, 1609, song of the Netherland wars. Argument was dangerous with these quick tempered soldiers and able swordsmen, that it was wise to preface any statement addressed to them with a "pardonez-moi" resulting in the name being used to describe them. Pardonnez- mois or padona- moys they were generally called. Oh No John is from Somerset, I believe. Yours, Aye. Dave try this site. click here

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 06:09 PM

A real quote, from the introduction to a real paper, submitted and accepted in a real graduate degree program at a university whose name has been concealed to protect the innocent: "In the course of this dissertation, I will demonstrate that the great body of folkloric musical material that is regarded as indigenous, which is to say, fundamentally created within the context of the musical/cultural milieu, spanning the temporal and geographical limits that are through custom and common practice regarded to comprise the British Isles, can, in most cases, be demonstrated to have originated within those same strictures, with the exception of similar materials that have been established to come from either adjecent or remote geographical locations, and that have subsequently been integrated into the common canon."

if you missed that, I'll summarize-- he found that nearly all British Isles songs are from the British Isles, unless they are from somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:05 AM

Try the local library for a very informative book called if I remember rightly "The Penguin Book of English Ballads."

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: Fiolar
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:12 AM

Sorry - it's "The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs."

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GeorgeH
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:16 AM

As I recall . . the dates in the Penguin BEFS are unlikely to be early enogh to suggest where the songs were collected . . (that is the R Vaughn Williams / Bert Lloyd collaboration, isn't it?). Also as I recall, there are songs in there collected from places a long way from the place names mentioned in the songs (doesn't actually prove anything, I realise).

My suspicion is that the only certainty here is that, whatever place of origin you come up with, someone will disagree with you . .

But hell, does it really matter?

G.

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: pavane
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 11:37 AM

As far as I can see, from my limited research, almost every collected song can be traced back to an earlier printed source, although that itself was often probably based on an oral source. But as usual, I don't suppose that helps.

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: IanC
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 12:04 PM

Pavane

Not really so. Versions of most orally conveyed songs will have been printed at some time during their lifetimes, but frequently not in very similar versions to those currently being orally transmitted. Sometimes it's a bit hard to prove this, I accept, as - once you've got a printed version - it becomes "definitive" and can be traced. It's very tempting to then assume that the printed version is the origin of any subsequent oral version.

Also, there are in fact - quite a few orally collected songs without any close printed antecedent. Perhaps you're looking in the wrong place. Here, you might take "The Black Velvet Band as something of an example ... this almost certainly began life as a broadside but the orally collected versions of the song would clearly qualify as a totally different song. This - of course - begs the question of what is a particular song?

Probably the best evidence of what's actually happening can be gleaned from some "smutty" songs (such as Rugby Songs) which, before being written down in the 1970s were certainly orally transmitted for up to a century. Can you find a printed version of "Dinah" for example (not something similar like "Black Girl, Yellow Girl" ... there are, after all, only 6 folk songs if you look at things by families) earlier than around 1970?

There are also oddities like fairly clear references to "The Cutty Wren" during the 1381 Peasants' Revolt, without the words being printed until some centuries later.

I could go on, but I won't!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Origin of British Isles songs
From: GUEST,Molly T
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:45 AM

Thank you all very much!!