Would you take a life?What circumstance?

Subject: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 02:44 PM

Hmmmm, starting two threads in one day....MUST be too hot around here for other activities. Well one's about music at least, but this one.......

Yeah, I often wonder about this. It's tricky, 'cause I've never been in the Military (and probably would have done anything NOT to have been), I'm generally anti-gun (but have seem my position waver a bit over the last few years) and have no use for sports hunting.

Heather and I have discussed this many times, and we seem to both go against what most of our friends probably think. Our lack of belief in an "identifiable diety" may have something to do with it, as well.

We both seem to feel that if "ordered to kill" by an authority, we'd be unable to do it, but that if we saw someone being mugged or assaulted, we could pull the trigger in a heartbeat (without remorse....we THINK). Going to jail then, would be the major deterrent...but NOT the actual taking of the life. I'll always wonder about this, and hope that any of my wacky theories are never tested.

Rick

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 02:46 PM

How can one really know what one would do until one is actually IN the situation?

~S~

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 02:57 PM

I get squeamish about the lives of pets - but can and have put pets down - then bawled and shook for hours afterwards. I'm a devout coward - if cowardice was catholicism I'd be Pope! - yet have several times been in situations where anothers life was threatened and without even thinking intervened - putting myself at more risk rather then less. There are situations where I do not doubt I would, could and gleefully kill another human being. They are all situations I hope never ever to encounter...a few (very few) situations where I'd do it if I had to...

but no, I never thought I could go out and shoot to kill under orders...in fact I doubt I'd have gotten through boot camp...

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:00 PM

I'd do it for cash. ;->

Paul

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:00 PM

Right, Susan. You have to be there to know.

If I were to speculate...I imagine I might take a life if I was in a war situation or in some sudden emergency where I was attacked or saw someone else attacked in what I considered a wrongful way.

One tends to act instinctively at such times.

If carrying a gun, one is much more likely to kill than if grabbing a stick or resorting to one's bare hands, however. That's why guns are so dangerous to have around.

I'd rather dissuade an attacker than kill him, all things considered.

You never can tell what'll happen in life.

- LH

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:06 PM

not the situations I'm thinking of LH - if I was carrying a gun I'd probably forget to unholster it.

I'm talking hands on smashing kicking glory in the destruction *D*E*A*T*H* ~ and since I have experienced the feeling of wanting to do this I'm torn between hopeing I never see the culprit again - and that I will come across him in a nice secluded place where I can make the walking turd suffer while I kill him slowly - very very slowly.

Not something I like living with...but I also am not thrilled to belong to the same species as this guy.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:09 PM

mmmmmmm (the aggravated kind)... Self-defence or defence of innocents is an easy question to answer... you already have. As for your anti-gun : home invasions are on the rise in Canada since the storage laws were enacted. As for your anti-hunting (I know you only said YOU have no USE for it but it still sounds "that" way) : if you've never been hunting with a real hunter - not the clowns on TNN - or you use animal products, you have no vote as to whether I can hunt.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: JenEllen
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:10 PM

I deal with that (unwillingly) on a daily basis. I don't necessarily believe in the 'identifiable diety' but I do believe in doing good, and right, and that each life is worthy.

We have a little bottle of 'pink stuff' in our pharmacy that when injected will send a critter to the great boneyard in the sky. The kicker is, you gotta inject it, you have to stare into eyes, and try not to cry because it fucks up your vision and you want a clean stick. And after a weekend full of hit-by-cars, "Fluffy is 18 and can't walk anymore", or "We found this squashed up bird", you walk past that freezer full of little corpses and know that YOU did that. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I suppose for people it is the same thing. You can do what is right, but it's still the ones who live that carry the weight around.

~J

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:13 PM

Gnu... he said 'sports hunting'...

Me, I'd kill all of ya in a heart-beat!!! And then eat bits and pieces of the grain fed ones!!

LOL!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:15 PM

Take a life, take a holiday....

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:20 PM

I've had to assist with the euthanasia of quite a few animals, and I've performed one by myself. In almost all cases, it was an act of mercy and I was not troubled about it. In one case, the animal was very vibrant and alive and there was no reason to put it down except that the owners wanted it put down. I wasn't in a position to protest this situation and I had to hold the dog. This was a very troubling experience.

As far as killing people is concerned, I don't know whether or not I could do it, and I hope I never have to find out.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: SharonA
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:24 PM

Take it where? :^)

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:27 PM

When my children were little, I would gladly have killed a multitude of people if those people intended them harm...with a flame thrower if I had one handy. And giggled the whole time.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:27 PM

Take it where?

Hither. And yon.

Alex

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:34 PM

My family, my pets, yes.

Don't know in other circumstances, but it certainly brings up a dilemma, i.e. I don't own a gun, don't want to, so I guess the question is kind of moot, as I wouldn't be able to act on my instinct or desire, unless I had some other sort of weapon. Now, if we could all have, if we wanted, some sort of stun gun, something non-lethal, I'd feel a whole lot better about it all.

kat

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:37 PM

Hither And Yon??

Didn't they used to play the pub circut in the mid 60's?

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:37 PM

I'm not exactly sure why but your question made me think of the movie Die Hard. If some guy who was threatening the life of my wife and a group of other hostages and he was making me run over broken glass in my bare feet while he was shooting at me I would probably be able to kill him. But only if he had a German accent. **BG**

It seems like a lot of movies spend quite a bit of time justifying the violence or at least portraying characters as bad so that the audience "wants" them to die. From what I've heard and read, it is seldom that clear cut. Even the worse people usually have people who love them and will miss them. To kill someone you have to ignore that fact.

Interesting topic. It would probably make a good song.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:41 PM

Some creatures forfeit any and all rights, and make ignoring the faint possibility that someone somewhere sees good in them, or will miss them REAL easy.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:42 PM

its hard to say what people would do until they are in that situation, certainly people would not hesitate if they were defending a loved one. in a battle field situation - I read once that in the US civil war - that a large percentage of guns picked up (something like 80%) on the battlefield next to the dead were never fired. It seems that most people except for the 2% that are natural born killers have a built in mechanism that prevents them from killing other people. THe military is well aware of this, this is why the training program involves shooting at paper cutouts that pop up, aimed at making the response automatic as well as language that dehumanizes the enemy (ie. anti-personnel device, collateral damage etc or calling the enemy some other name ie. reds, gooks, bosch, etc.) Petr Ive had to put down a couple pets too and its hard although it really was the most humane thing to do.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:42 PM

In defense of myself or someone I love, absolutely.

Under orders? Nah. That's why I'm not in the military.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 03:51 PM

I'd do telemarketers if there was a way to kill over the phone.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 04:09 PM

I'd shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die...so would Johnny

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 04:37 PM

Somebody once told me to get a life, but no-one's offered me one to take, so now I just don't know WHAT to do!!! :>)

There are circumstances where fundamental ethics override mores and other cultural agreements. I have never been in one, but I believe that if I were my ability to survive would rule in an instant.

I would never put myself in that position knowingly; but if someone having made such a choice (to destroy me or my loved ones or even an innocent bystander) put themselves in that position I would play the cards where they lay.

And I would live, heavy hearted, with the consequences of my own decision to do so.

A

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 04:55 PM

Hmmm. I wonder this every so often, usually over a Law nd Order or ER episode... I know that I swerve to avoid animals only if I think doing do will not cause an accident, so I have seemingly purposely run over various small beings, whereas I do avoid them if it's safe to do so. I've never had a human run out in front of my car, so that hasn't been tested. I grew up thinking of myself as a pretty rabid radical pacifist, but I've outgrown that. I've never been personally physically assaulted (the 2 times I've been punched, the puncher was aiming at someone else but too drunk to aim well), so I don't know how hard I'd fight back. When one of my sons was very slightly sexually abused, my concern was more for the 8-year old abuser (whom I thought was likely in some kind of real danger) than my son, who was not traumatized in the least, nor exposed to any dangerous fluids, but I don't know what I'd have done if it had been something awful at the, um, hands of an adult. But I like to think I'd be reasonable - not kill to avoid a punch in the mouth, but do whatever it takes to avoid the forcible rape of my child? And I have to admit that I have so little faith in the legal system that I don't think I'd take it into account in deciding what to do...

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 04:57 PM

Rick, you say you would have done "anything" in order to stay out of the military- would you have killed in order to avoid it? :)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM

Through bad luck or bad judgement, people sometimes find themselves in a situation where a human life can be taken if they make a bad choice--I am particularly thinking about Keith Moon, whose car was surrounded by an unruly crowd, and, in trying to escape, killed a friend. It seems more likely that people will encounter situations like these--where the challenge is to avoid panicking and unwillingly taking a life, rather than the other situation--

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM

The who knows until they are faced with the decision.

Some months ago my father died, it was more a release than a tragedy. His quality of life over the last few years was very poor. Yes I wept, but life goes on. We, as a familly had made the decision with the Doctors not to resusitate - the last few days were palative treatment only - but was a joint decision made out of humanity.

Sometime in the next few years I am going to have to take the dog on his last trip to the vet. I fear that is going to upset me more, and the decision will have to be made.

But to kill another being in cold blood, perhaps I am squeamish but you don't know until that time.

One thing I do know - if you are part of the democratic process, you must share a responsibility for those things done in your name, be it Veit Nam or Kosovo ( Possibly an unfair comparison)

Violence is not a game of space invaders - you can not click on "another game" icon.

Sorry, this has depressed me I'am off to the pub.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:50 PM

one thing about the military, often being under orders doesnt give one much of a choice, plenty of soldiers were shot for desertion, as well as disobeying orders. Supposedly the Nuremberg trials made the "under orders" defence no longer valid but if you are ordered or face being shot, that can be a difficult choice I think most would choose survival.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:02 PM

I would have thought it would be relatively easy - the difficulty is refraining from it.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:39 PM

If I or a loved one were threatened with death or serious injury, I could.

You might be surprised what you will do if you are in the military. Sgt. Alvin York, U.S. hero in WW1 was a very religious man who was opposed to taking a life. But he took many of them. I have often wondered how I would react in a combat situation and fortunately for me, I will never know.

I do not understand how anyone can do it for hire.

DougR

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM

Had to, Carol C? Obeying orders, I suppose....

You're right, MMario, not so long since, you could forfeit any and all rights, just by stealing a loaf of bread. And in a few years' time your present attitude will seem similarly quaint - though not necessarily in all parts of the US of A.

Just a week or two ago, most of the nations of the world came close to a deal that would have put some millions of Kalashnikovs out of commission and curtailed much of the worldwide arms trade. It was scuppered by Bush, running scared of the NRA who thought it might compromise the constitutional right to bear arms at the best price. (Small arms have been used to kill about five million people in the past ten years - 80 per cent of them women and children; 90 per cent of them civilian.)

My guess is that any one of us could be programmed to kill,whatever attitude we might start out with. In Liberia, kids as young as six have been turned into killing machines. Sometimes it's enough just to put them through brutalising regimes, but they are often forced into narcotics dependency, just to be sure.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Chip2447
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

In defense of my life, my family, my home, or my property; Absolutly and unequivioclly, YES. I have no doubt.
In the defense of "Innocents"; Again the answer is YES.
Because someone cut me off in traffic, probably not.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

Should have said worldwide small-arms trade....

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:34 PM

In defense of my child, absolutely and without hesitation.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:41 PM

Fionn - for the particular case I am thinking of - small arms or even a knife wouldnt do. - it deserves - oh - say sandpaper from one end to another then salt poured on - before being staked out on an anthill covered in honey. that would be a good start. and less then it deserves.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

Good point, Fionn. I felt a need to keep my job, so I did what I was told. I was very young at the time and had a lot to learn about life. I think I might choose differently at this point in my life.

I have turned down a job because I told the potential employer that I could not help to kill an animal under such circumstances in the future, and he told me he couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't be required to.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

To avoid losing my life, that of a loved one, yes. If I awake and see an intruder in my home, yes. To interfer with a rape in prograss, no. I would kick him as hard as I could, then hope he came at me. To stop him from stealing my tv, no.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:59 PM

In defense of self, family, or another human being. In some wars, yes; in others, not if I thought it through. I think some wars, once the US was in them, were pragmatically justified by the situation. Ironically, RVN, where I did my actual service, was not one of them, but at the time I did not think as I do now. If you want to go to extremes and think of situations, I might take the life of a person injured beyond hope and suffering extreme pain. I'd have to be very, very sure the ambulance wasn't just around the corner.

CC

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:18 PM

Interesting thread, I have seen a few people die, many of them whilst I was at work (I'm a delivery driver), I believe all human life is sacred. I do not own a gun (we are not allowed to in UK), even if we were I would coose not to buy one.
As for animals, I have worked in a few slaughter-houses and have no problem killing animals for food, but I cannot see why people kill animals for fun, if people like shooting there are plenty of clay pigeon shooting grounds. A few years ago I was first on the scene at a serious road traffic accident, the victim (who died) was a young woman that was 6 months pregnant, I found out later that she had recently married and qualiffied as a teacher.What a waste of life. One of my concerns is road saftey, along with food saftey. Dont get me talking about food saftey, I'll probably wear my keyboard out BG.john

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:20 PM

Same answer as always and not too entertaining. Sorry Rick.

If you have a gun and I have a gun (or whatever) and we are put into an area where one of us must kill the other........No contest.....If I can, I will kill you.

Afterwards? How do I deal with it? How do I get the rationalization thing going? Well...............beats me, but I'd try I know.

So the real question becomes one of who decides I should do what and when. Killing for Karen and the kids I can rationalize....me too. Because I was asked to or ordered to do it for any reason.................Better be a damn good reason! Obviously for me, Vietnam wasn't one.

Euthanasia?...........another thread

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM

Wow, some interesting points of view. I'd forgotten to mention that one of the things that really gort me thinking about this was a Woody Allen film with Ben Gazarra and Anjelica Huston (help me someone, I've forgotten the title).

A very respected doctor who's work is so valued around the world that he's about to be awarded some Nobel prize or something is threatened with exposure by his Mistress. She will bring his whole life, his work, and his good deeds crashing down around him. He'll lose everything including his family if she blabs publicly. He agonizes but decides to have her killed. He see no other way. Really made us think what we'd do in a similar situation. Scary options.

Ebbie, GREAT question. Hoo boy...I don't know....but I MIGHT have.

I feel like Mario (great line about the Pope by the way) in that I'm a real coward, but have jumped into situations without thinking. Just lucky to have not at least gotten my head beaten in.

I guess there are few who are TRUE pacifists and simply wouldn't do it.

Rick

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 10:58 PM

sort of off the point but 80% of the guns picked up on Civil War battlefields un fired? Hmmm. Since we killed more Americans in that war than died in all our other wars combined I wonder (but don't REALLY question) about the percentage.

I've been to police training. The issue is addressed in those classes. The answer most commonly presented when that question was raised was: "You won't know until the circumstance presents itself!" This answer from instructors who had dozens of years of street experience.

There is something all cops face with a certain amount of apprehension and that is "lag time". A person who is in a position to cause YOU harm knows what he is going to do. You don't. The time between his formulating the thought to do you damage and you perceiving that thought (usually by their action) is called lag time. It can get you killed. But more important, perhaps, is your acting before you need to or over taking lag time. As with that fella Getz on the subway in NY a couple of years back. He shot before he knew what was happening. He had experience that led him to anticipate the worst.

With all this. Once that decision has been caried through on your part nothing can change what you did. What a terrible thing to have to carry with you. Terrible, even if it was justified.

Please, don't EVER make that decision.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:17 PM

Rick Fielding, you're a great roaring bollocks (Clinton- note the correct spelling) for starting this thread. Clinton, LOL at your first response! My answer..

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:18 PM

A guy is out with a pal in the woods when his friend sags to the ground, doesn't seem to be breathing, his eyes rolled back in his head.

Guy whips out his cell phone and calls 911. He gasps to the operator, My friend is dead! What shall I do- what shall I do?

Operator, in a calm soothing voice says, Just take it easy. I can help. First, make sure he's dead.

There is a silence then a shot is heard. The guy's voice comes back on the line. He says, breathlessly, OK...?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:20 PM

Hmmmmm.............Odd, "Deliverance" is on TBS right now........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:27 PM

The first rule in shooting / stabbing someone is to make sure you damn well kill them. Why, well the cops / court only get to hear your side of the story so you can slant it in your favour without a dissenting voice. Secondly, dead people don't come after you seeking revenge. And always remember - only live people get to go to court.

JG. F.M.E.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:40 PM

Interesting points, John. When I was raised target practising, the first rule my dad drilled into us was never point a gun unless you mean to kill. We were forbidden to point even toy guns, but we knew if it ever came to a point where we felt we had no choice, we'd better damn well kill whoever we were aiming at.

Curiously enough, Rick, I am waiting for archived court papers from 1890 in which my greatgrandad stood trial for shooting a neighbour who was trying to shoot him. The neighbour had plenty of ammo and a better gun, but my ggranddad had experience and shot back, once, killing the guy.

kat

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:08 AM

Bada Boom Kat! Dammit, I just figured the REAL reason I started this...It's those Damn SOPRANOS!! We've gotten seriously hooked...we love 'em...and they're KILLERS!

Think I'd better see a shrink along with Tony S.

Seamus, what's "bollocks" are they Irish Buffalos?

Rick

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:29 AM

Anyone seriously interested in this topic, I'd recommend Richard Rhodes' Why they Kill. A very provocative book, although not necessary gospel truth or the final answer to anything. Coyote Breath makes a lot of sense. Said everything I would have wanted to said. Someone should say that, so I did. I, too, am very suspicious of the "80%" figure for the Civil War. But it was S.L.A. Marshall, a serious scholar, who did the study, and although I don't recall the exact figure, it was amazingly high. Maybe even as high as 20 or 25%.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:41 AM

I checked the figures from Gettysburg. Grossman, who did the investigation, states that of the muskets recovered from the battlefield, 90% were loaded, which does not tell us whether they were fired. Half of those had more than one round in them, and one had 23. I have never seen combat (and am a bit old to start), but I strongly suspect I might get so scared or excited I might screw up and load my musket 5 times. And It may also be I could not bring myself to kill. But I could not say now that from principle, I never would.