Would you take a life?What circumstance?

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 02:21 PM

The "preparedness" Jeri brought up (sorry Jeri, touching story) makes me think of my friend Wayne, an EMT/Paramedic for 25 years before going to PA school. Both families were in my van coming back from the zoo one night and as I waited in the left turn lane to get on the outerbelt, a woman in a minivan zoomed past us in the other lane not seeing the red light evidently. She rammed into a pickup coming off the exit in a horrendous smashup. I am sitting in the driver's seat as dumbfounded as everyone else when I realized that Wayne was already halfway to the wreck. The minivan's airbag had deployed but the woman was "out" and the van was rolling across the road. Wayne managed to throw the thing into park and was immediately inside and stabilizing her neck, etc. I had finally managed to move myself, but it was amazing to watch what this guy did without apparent thought.

What makes this kinda' funny is that in everyday life, Wayne is about as laid back as you get and can never make a decision without thinking for a long time. I mean we've sat in his driveway discussing (for about 5 minutes) which way is best to turn to go to the friggin' airport! He's a great guy.....don't misunderstand. It is though, completely amazing, the difference between the professional Wayne and the personal Wayne.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: ShankhillPhantom
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 02:16 PM

I nearly did once,I was willing to take 5 lives because the father would not lend me a truck to earn myself £30 for to spend on drink,I can assure you all that I would have commited that act,I was so sure that I tried to manufacture a petrol bomb to pitch thru the window ,thanks be to God that it did not happen but I had to confess to them good people many, many years later, today I could not hurt a fish (I gave it up so as I wold not inflict pain on them ,I'm still sick but not as bad)

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: annamill
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:53 PM

I don't know... I would definitely take my own if I felt the quality of my life would never be good again. So, it follows that I could take the life of someone else who was suffering if that was what they wanted.

I once had someone break into my house and I told my husband I was very glad I didn't have a gun. I don't believe in killing someone who is need enough to break into a house. This is someone who needs help. But, I would have shot him if I had a gun.

I would probably shoot someone in a war situation, but I think your state of mind is in a strange place then. The old "Fight or Flight" syndrome type thing.

I guess you gotta be there.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:18 PM

Why anyone would steal a TV is beyond me, Kim, they're useless without the cable--

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: vindelis
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:17 PM

I don't know that I could do the deed myself, I just hope that if the time came I would find the strength to let the medical profession do it.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:41 PM

MMario, wha'd that guy DO to you anyway! You seem like such a sweet individual so it must have been Really Bad.

Fionn - I don't know this for sure cause I'm a blackpowder gal and don't care for automatic-type weapons - but I THINK the US stopped the importation of AK-47s some time ago. The ones that are still here can be bought and sold but there ain't no new ones coming in. At least I think that's right, but don't anyone take it for gospel because I could very well be wrong. And I know there are other countries who buy them.

I love my gun but there aren't too many crimes being committed with flintlocks these days. She was my daddy's so there's a lot of sentimental value there. I'm taking her to a shooting match in 2 weeks.

Chances are, if someone surprised me in my house, the Household Defense Weapon (which is NOT a blackpowder gun) would probably not be accessible to me, so I would have to resort to strategery instead. But I would definitely fight for my life if it were necessary. If someone wants to take it they're going to have to work awfully damn hard.

The TV, they can have. They already took it once, about 8 years ago. Good thing nobody was home at the time.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:38 PM

I have it on good authority that the Chicago ant population live in mortal fear of Art.

Anyone remember the title of the movie I mentioned earlier? Any thoughts on the choice that the Doctor made? Tough one.

Jeri, thanks. Tough story. I also learned a lot of those techniques, but I'm not sure how I'd react in a similar situation.

Rick

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM

dead people don't come after you seeking revenge

At least you'd better hope they don't! Cos once they're dead, you can't kill 'em no more!

Alex

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 12:05 PM

Not this parent, KitKat.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,L.
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:14 AM

I am going to interpet this to be a human life question. I hope I never have to make the decision but to protect my loved ones from imminent danger from someone who was about to kill them, I would certainly try to prevent harm even if it meant that I would have to take the life of another person. I would likely extend that action to protect an innocent had I the power and wherewithal.

L.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:06 AM

Ard Mhacha, this thread was started by a Canadian. Please do not make blanket statements about Americans. We do NOT all love guns, including me.

kat

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM

You betcha we love our guns. Second Amendment rights and all that.

Yes, I would defend myself if someone were trying to kill me, and if I killed that person in the process I would feel terrible for having taken a life but would not feel guilty. Does that make sense?

I did decide to end the life of my 19-year-old cat who was in the final stages of kidney failure, had gone blind, and was obviously miserable and in pain. Even so, I still (two years later) feel terrible about having him put to sleep... but my feelings of guilt are for having let him suffer for so long BEFORE making the decision to put him to sleep.

SharonA

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: KitKat
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:32 AM

I'm with all the other parents on this one - there's no pain and misery too bad to inflict on people who torture and kill children - merely killing them wouldn't be nearly enough.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:22 AM

This thread for US Cats only. They love their guns. Slan Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM

I take numerous lives every day. Just walking down the street I kill ants and a slew of other inselcts, plants and other life forms. Brushing my teeth I kill off (hopefully) a ton of bacteria. Wiping my eyes I destroy all kinds of various creatures that are, I've been told, living on my eye lids. Conversely, when I am no longer alive, I will nourish all manner of creatures. While I'm here, I do hope my songs and my actions did some nourishing and not too much harm.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 08:58 AM

I honestly don't know what I would do, and I've thought about it. I'd like to think that if I were in a situation where I was sure my life were threatened, I could kill to preserve it. I won't know for sure until I get into that situation, and I hope I never do.

I was 17 when my mother and I came home to find my dad dead on the kitchen floor. Despite years of CPR training in water safety courses, I stood there frozen in shock, stuck in a slow-motion world while my brain fired conflicting thoughts too quicly for me to latch onto even one of them. It turned out that it wouldn't have mattered, but that lag time Coyote Breath talked about could have caused his death, or at least prevented the rest of his life. I've since been in situations where I have not "frozen," but I'm always aware it's possible and I must overcome it.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM

Only if I were really really cross.

Kris

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 07:54 AM

Mmario's and Rick's comments on cowardice bring back the crazy logic of Spike Milligan's Puckoon, in which the Milligan's defence was that he was brave enough - just saddled with coward's legs.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 05:45 AM

Ebbie, that was hilarious!

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: BlueJay
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:11 AM

Yup, Yup. Got a concealed gun permit :) and I'm ready to mow the bastards down at any time. Police our streets! Police our streets! Unfortunately for society, I don't have a gun to conceal yet. I'm looking for a really well fitting holster first. Any recommendations?

But seriously, though, Rick, when push comes to shove I would do whatever I had to to protect my family. Years ago, I had an intruder in my apartment at about 3 am. Scared the shit out of us, because we had a newborn baby. I attacked with a lamp, which was the only weapon at hand, and had the intruder out the front door before I recognised her.

It was the woman who lived next door. Drunk on her ass, she saw my baby who was sleeping near the living room window, and decided to come in for a closer look. She was a good neighbor, but not a really close friend. I'm glad I didn't have a gun. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:12 AM

Could do it again....with "educated" folk who are ignorant of the BS nominclatures

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:10 AM

Don that

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:09 AM

Ben thar

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:41 AM

I checked the figures from Gettysburg. Grossman, who did the investigation, states that of the muskets recovered from the battlefield, 90% were loaded, which does not tell us whether they were fired. Half of those had more than one round in them, and one had 23. I have never seen combat (and am a bit old to start), but I strongly suspect I might get so scared or excited I might screw up and load my musket 5 times. And It may also be I could not bring myself to kill. But I could not say now that from principle, I never would.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: toadfrog
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:29 AM

Anyone seriously interested in this topic, I'd recommend Richard Rhodes' Why they Kill. A very provocative book, although not necessary gospel truth or the final answer to anything. Coyote Breath makes a lot of sense. Said everything I would have wanted to said. Someone should say that, so I did. I, too, am very suspicious of the "80%" figure for the Civil War. But it was S.L.A. Marshall, a serious scholar, who did the study, and although I don't recall the exact figure, it was amazingly high. Maybe even as high as 20 or 25%.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:08 AM

Bada Boom Kat! Dammit, I just figured the REAL reason I started this...It's those Damn SOPRANOS!! We've gotten seriously hooked...we love 'em...and they're KILLERS!

Think I'd better see a shrink along with Tony S.

Seamus, what's "bollocks" are they Irish Buffalos?

Rick

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:40 PM

Interesting points, John. When I was raised target practising, the first rule my dad drilled into us was never point a gun unless you mean to kill. We were forbidden to point even toy guns, but we knew if it ever came to a point where we felt we had no choice, we'd better damn well kill whoever we were aiming at.

Curiously enough, Rick, I am waiting for archived court papers from 1890 in which my greatgrandad stood trial for shooting a neighbour who was trying to shoot him. The neighbour had plenty of ammo and a better gun, but my ggranddad had experience and shot back, once, killing the guy.

kat

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:27 PM

The first rule in shooting / stabbing someone is to make sure you damn well kill them. Why, well the cops / court only get to hear your side of the story so you can slant it in your favour without a dissenting voice. Secondly, dead people don't come after you seeking revenge. And always remember - only live people get to go to court.

JG. F.M.E.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:20 PM

Hmmmmm.............Odd, "Deliverance" is on TBS right now........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:18 PM

A guy is out with a pal in the woods when his friend sags to the ground, doesn't seem to be breathing, his eyes rolled back in his head.

Guy whips out his cell phone and calls 911. He gasps to the operator, My friend is dead! What shall I do- what shall I do?

Operator, in a calm soothing voice says, Just take it easy. I can help. First, make sure he's dead.

There is a silence then a shot is heard. The guy's voice comes back on the line. He says, breathlessly, OK...?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 11:17 PM

Rick Fielding, you're a great roaring bollocks (Clinton- note the correct spelling) for starting this thread. Clinton, LOL at your first response! My answer..

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 10:58 PM

sort of off the point but 80% of the guns picked up on Civil War battlefields un fired? Hmmm. Since we killed more Americans in that war than died in all our other wars combined I wonder (but don't REALLY question) about the percentage.

I've been to police training. The issue is addressed in those classes. The answer most commonly presented when that question was raised was: "You won't know until the circumstance presents itself!" This answer from instructors who had dozens of years of street experience.

There is something all cops face with a certain amount of apprehension and that is "lag time". A person who is in a position to cause YOU harm knows what he is going to do. You don't. The time between his formulating the thought to do you damage and you perceiving that thought (usually by their action) is called lag time. It can get you killed. But more important, perhaps, is your acting before you need to or over taking lag time. As with that fella Getz on the subway in NY a couple of years back. He shot before he knew what was happening. He had experience that led him to anticipate the worst.

With all this. Once that decision has been caried through on your part nothing can change what you did. What a terrible thing to have to carry with you. Terrible, even if it was justified.

Please, don't EVER make that decision.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM

Wow, some interesting points of view. I'd forgotten to mention that one of the things that really gort me thinking about this was a Woody Allen film with Ben Gazarra and Anjelica Huston (help me someone, I've forgotten the title).

A very respected doctor who's work is so valued around the world that he's about to be awarded some Nobel prize or something is threatened with exposure by his Mistress. She will bring his whole life, his work, and his good deeds crashing down around him. He'll lose everything including his family if she blabs publicly. He agonizes but decides to have her killed. He see no other way. Really made us think what we'd do in a similar situation. Scary options.

Ebbie, GREAT question. Hoo boy...I don't know....but I MIGHT have.

I feel like Mario (great line about the Pope by the way) in that I'm a real coward, but have jumped into situations without thinking. Just lucky to have not at least gotten my head beaten in.

I guess there are few who are TRUE pacifists and simply wouldn't do it.

Rick

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:20 PM

Same answer as always and not too entertaining. Sorry Rick.

If you have a gun and I have a gun (or whatever) and we are put into an area where one of us must kill the other........No contest.....If I can, I will kill you.

Afterwards? How do I deal with it? How do I get the rationalization thing going? Well...............beats me, but I'd try I know.

So the real question becomes one of who decides I should do what and when. Killing for Karen and the kids I can rationalize....me too. Because I was asked to or ordered to do it for any reason.................Better be a damn good reason! Obviously for me, Vietnam wasn't one.

Euthanasia?...........another thread

Spaw

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 09:18 PM

Interesting thread, I have seen a few people die, many of them whilst I was at work (I'm a delivery driver), I believe all human life is sacred. I do not own a gun (we are not allowed to in UK), even if we were I would coose not to buy one.
As for animals, I have worked in a few slaughter-houses and have no problem killing animals for food, but I cannot see why people kill animals for fun, if people like shooting there are plenty of clay pigeon shooting grounds. A few years ago I was first on the scene at a serious road traffic accident, the victim (who died) was a young woman that was 6 months pregnant, I found out later that she had recently married and qualiffied as a teacher.What a waste of life. One of my concerns is road saftey, along with food saftey. Dont get me talking about food saftey, I'll probably wear my keyboard out BG.john

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:59 PM

In defense of self, family, or another human being. In some wars, yes; in others, not if I thought it through. I think some wars, once the US was in them, were pragmatically justified by the situation. Ironically, RVN, where I did my actual service, was not one of them, but at the time I did not think as I do now. If you want to go to extremes and think of situations, I might take the life of a person injured beyond hope and suffering extreme pain. I'd have to be very, very sure the ambulance wasn't just around the corner.

CC

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

To avoid losing my life, that of a loved one, yes. If I awake and see an intruder in my home, yes. To interfer with a rape in prograss, no. I would kick him as hard as I could, then hope he came at me. To stop him from stealing my tv, no.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM

Good point, Fionn. I felt a need to keep my job, so I did what I was told. I was very young at the time and had a lot to learn about life. I think I might choose differently at this point in my life.

I have turned down a job because I told the potential employer that I could not help to kill an animal under such circumstances in the future, and he told me he couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't be required to.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: MMario
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:41 PM

Fionn - for the particular case I am thinking of - small arms or even a knife wouldnt do. - it deserves - oh - say sandpaper from one end to another then salt poured on - before being staked out on an anthill covered in honey. that would be a good start. and less then it deserves.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 08:34 PM

In defense of my child, absolutely and without hesitation.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

Should have said worldwide small-arms trade....

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Chip2447
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

In defense of my life, my family, my home, or my property; Absolutly and unequivioclly, YES. I have no doubt.
In the defense of "Innocents"; Again the answer is YES.
Because someone cut me off in traffic, probably not.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM

Had to, Carol C? Obeying orders, I suppose....

You're right, MMario, not so long since, you could forfeit any and all rights, just by stealing a loaf of bread. And in a few years' time your present attitude will seem similarly quaint - though not necessarily in all parts of the US of A.

Just a week or two ago, most of the nations of the world came close to a deal that would have put some millions of Kalashnikovs out of commission and curtailed much of the worldwide arms trade. It was scuppered by Bush, running scared of the NRA who thought it might compromise the constitutional right to bear arms at the best price. (Small arms have been used to kill about five million people in the past ten years - 80 per cent of them women and children; 90 per cent of them civilian.)

My guess is that any one of us could be programmed to kill,whatever attitude we might start out with. In Liberia, kids as young as six have been turned into killing machines. Sometimes it's enough just to put them through brutalising regimes, but they are often forced into narcotics dependency, just to be sure.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:39 PM

If I or a loved one were threatened with death or serious injury, I could.

You might be surprised what you will do if you are in the military. Sgt. Alvin York, U.S. hero in WW1 was a very religious man who was opposed to taking a life. But he took many of them. I have often wondered how I would react in a combat situation and fortunately for me, I will never know.

I do not understand how anyone can do it for hire.

DougR

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 06:02 PM

I would have thought it would be relatively easy - the difficulty is refraining from it.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:50 PM

one thing about the military, often being under orders doesnt give one much of a choice, plenty of soldiers were shot for desertion, as well as disobeying orders. Supposedly the Nuremberg trials made the "under orders" defence no longer valid but if you are ordered or face being shot, that can be a difficult choice I think most would choose survival.

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM

The who knows until they are faced with the decision.

Some months ago my father died, it was more a release than a tragedy. His quality of life over the last few years was very poor. Yes I wept, but life goes on. We, as a familly had made the decision with the Doctors not to resusitate - the last few days were palative treatment only - but was a joint decision made out of humanity.

Sometime in the next few years I am going to have to take the dog on his last trip to the vet. I fear that is going to upset me more, and the decision will have to be made.

But to kill another being in cold blood, perhaps I am squeamish but you don't know until that time.

One thing I do know - if you are part of the democratic process, you must share a responsibility for those things done in your name, be it Veit Nam or Kosovo ( Possibly an unfair comparison)

Violence is not a game of space invaders - you can not click on "another game" icon.

Sorry, this has depressed me I'am off to the pub.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM

Through bad luck or bad judgement, people sometimes find themselves in a situation where a human life can be taken if they make a bad choice--I am particularly thinking about Keith Moon, whose car was surrounded by an unruly crowd, and, in trying to escape, killed a friend. It seems more likely that people will encounter situations like these--where the challenge is to avoid panicking and unwillingly taking a life, rather than the other situation--

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 04:57 PM

Rick, you say you would have done "anything" in order to stay out of the military- would you have killed in order to avoid it? :)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 01 - 04:55 PM

Hmmm. I wonder this every so often, usually over a Law nd Order or ER episode... I know that I swerve to avoid animals only if I think doing do will not cause an accident, so I have seemingly purposely run over various small beings, whereas I do avoid them if it's safe to do so. I've never had a human run out in front of my car, so that hasn't been tested. I grew up thinking of myself as a pretty rabid radical pacifist, but I've outgrown that. I've never been personally physically assaulted (the 2 times I've been punched, the puncher was aiming at someone else but too drunk to aim well), so I don't know how hard I'd fight back. When one of my sons was very slightly sexually abused, my concern was more for the 8-year old abuser (whom I thought was likely in some kind of real danger) than my son, who was not traumatized in the least, nor exposed to any dangerous fluids, but I don't know what I'd have done if it had been something awful at the, um, hands of an adult. But I like to think I'd be reasonable - not kill to avoid a punch in the mouth, but do whatever it takes to avoid the forcible rape of my child? And I have to admit that I have so little faith in the legal system that I don't think I'd take it into account in deciding what to do...