Origins: Big Rock Candy Mountain (John Hartford)

Subject: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: voyager
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:30 AM

Freight Train Boogie Show #144

http://www.freighttrainboogie.com

presents Tribute to John Hartford from WV Mountain Stage show last year

oh the buzzing of the bees 'neath the cigarette trees

by the soda water fountain

by the lemonade springs where the bluebird sings

at the Big Rock Candy Mountain

hartford's version is tearful.

check it out.

voyager

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Mark Clark
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:06 AM

Thanks, voyager.

Anyone with a RealAudio player can listen here.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:37 AM

Thanks guys. I learned this as a child from a Burl Ives' record. Didn't realize until I was an adult that it was about hobos not children. Never did understand the cigarette reference.

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Bob P
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:59 AM

The cigarette reference is one of the most valuable
phrases in all of American literature even if it's
just a folk song.

The innocence of it compares with Huck's concept of
racism.

We appreciate the circumstances and understand more
about ourselves in understanding that they were
reacting naturally to their environment.

It causes us to look around at stuff we think of as
natural behavior, that someday people will look back
and shake their heads.

I've seen stuff in today's threads that qualify.

Says me, Bob P

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 01:59 PM

I read/heard somewhere in the context of Woody Guthrie and what he understood in the song, the Big Rock candy Mountain had a gay subtext.
It may have been in the Kline biography or a radio prog but they were making the statement authoratively.
maybe what Burl Ives sang was a bowdlerised version anyway.
any comments?

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 02:39 PM

Mr Red,
That brings a whole new unsettlingly, over the top interpretation to "all the cops have wooden legs". I read Kline bio , I don't remember that coming up.

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 03:11 PM

See "Big Rock Candy Mountain"(3) for some mention of the homosexual implications.

BobP. - I meant that as a child, I didn't understand the cigarette reference. All I understood was candy.

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: fat B****rd
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 04:06 PM

I seem to recall that this song (which I love) has actually been cited as a reference to Cocaine (Nose Candy) To me it's a hobo longing for paradise and also good fun.

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Bob P
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 05:32 PM

Sinsull,

The cigarette reference in Harry McClintock's famous song, from about 1928 (surprisingly pre-depression) and the acceptance of outrageous attitudes of Huck's world both reflect badges of innocence now taken for granted as archaic and wrong.

Replacing innocence with knowledge, though always painful, makes people more capable of understanding "yet to be conquered" behavior that turn out to be just as valuable socially; just not at that time. We still have, of course, both cigarettes and racism, and can't stamp out either, but appreciating how social processes work over time may yield clues to the future of such issues.

Most interesting is how commonly both are noted as being appropriate for children.

I checked Harry's lyrics and as the ones in the DT, and didn't see the verse that ends with "and you won't need any money".

Does anyone remember that?

I lost track of it. I had supposed it to be a subtle pitch for socialism (quite politically popular at that time), but wanted to see if it could also be read as a caution to smokers.

Bob P

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 08:39 PM

Harry "Haywire" Mac McClintock, who wrote the song, said there was an earlier version. It was about luring young boys to go with him to "do things for him" while on the road. He told that to Sam Eskin in an interview. I've no idea if that other version of the song was ever found.

I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble but...some have tact, others tell the truth.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 08:46 PM

I am NOT in any way saying that Haywire was doing this. He simply said that some of the hoboes did it in those other times. The kids were practically slaves to these morons. Child molestation is not a new phenomenon.

Art

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: richlmo
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 09:39 PM

Well, thanks everyone for bursting another childhood bubble. Being a kid in the 50's in Piedmont,NC, one of the first local TV kid shows was " The Little Rascal's Club " hosted by a singing cowboy named Fred Kirby. He was also the Sheriff and resident hero at Tweetsie Railroad. THE song I remember him singing was " Big Rock Candy Mountain ". I never had a clue it was anything but a child's fantasy song. Let's see what we can dig up on " Mary Had A Little Lamb ". Could be pretty interesting !!

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: MAG
Date: 25 Jul 01 - 10:06 PM

written as a plea for kindness to animals . always ask the children's librarian. -- MAG

Subject: ADD: The Appleknocker's Lament
From: Abby Sale
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 02:42 PM

Art:

This is almost certainly Haywire's bawdy version. It isn't on any record, as far as I know, but the sense of what he had to say is accurate. I sing it basically to the standard chorus in the "parlor" version. Sorry to burst still another bubble, richlmo, but the song (all versions) is certainly not about a hobo's pipe dream, they are about the stories (many, not just this one) that were told by by hobos to waifs to entice them to leave home (or the streets) and travel with the hobo - to be his "punk;" - his intern, if you will. This interpretation is probably first printed in Mulburn's Hobo's Handbook (1930) which doesn't even mention any bawdy version. It was a "known" thing but I've seen this repeated by several hobo & also bawdy song sources.

The Appleknocker's Lament

On a very fine day in the month of May
A great big bum (big burly) came hiking
And he seated his pratt (himself) 'neath a big green tree
Whcih was very much to his liking.

On the very same day in the month of May
A farmer's lad came hiking.
Said the bum to the son, "If you will come,
I'll show you some sights to your liking.

"I'll show you the bees in the cigarette trees,
The big rock candy mountains,
The chocolate heights where they give away kites
And the sody-water fountains.

"The lemonade springs where the bluebird sings,
The marbles made of crystal.
We'll join the band of Dangerous Dan
Who carries a sword and a pistol."

So the bum set out with the lad at his back.
For six long months they travelled,
Then the boy came back on the very same track
And this (sad) tale (he) unravelled.

"There are no bees in the cigarette trees,
No big rock candy mountains,
No chocolate heights where they give away kites,
Or sody-water fountains.

"No lemonade springs where the bluebird sings,
No marble made of crystal.
There is no such man as Dangerous Dan
Who carries a sword and a pistol.

"He made me beg and steal his eggs (sit on his peg)
And he called me his jocker.
When I didn't get pies he blacked my eyes
And called me his apple-knocker.

"No more I'll roam from my very fine home.
I'll save my junkerino.
You can bet your lid that this old kid
Won't be no one else's punkerino."

A typescript copy of this is No. 377 in the Gordon Inferno (California section) collection in the Library of Congress, sent to Gordon by Wheaton H. "Skin" Brewer of Lebanon, Oregon in 1927 under the title of "The Appleknocker's Lament." It is probably the earliest collected version. This version of McClintock's "The Big Rock Candy Mountain" is the only example seen of the fabled homosexual variant. The bracketed inserts are in the original typescript.

McClintock alludes to his "dirty" version but is willing to sing only his "parlor" version on the Smithsonian/Folkways record, "Haywire Mac."

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 04:32 PM

GUEST,djh
Read the Klime book 15 years since
must have been elsewhere I heard the discourse but the discussers were definitely of the opinion that hobos had to be careful where the slept for all sorts of reasons but sometimes because they could be trapped by a big burly beauty. The comment was that Woody would have been all too familiar with this. Then they made reference to the song, in context. Without the lyrics in front of me I could not make too much of it but filed it away till needed. And here it popped out.
I'm sure if you wanted to make the case there is a lot to go on in the lyrics above
apple knocker, his joker, and what is the precise meaning of punkerino? etc etc ad nauseum

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 26 Jul 01 - 05:50 PM

Thanks for the link to the Freight Train Boogie site - it is terrific.

Interesting discussion of Haywire McClintock and BRCM - makes you wish that there was a show like "Behind the Music" that focused on the truly interesting characters who have played music on this earth, rather than just the flavor-of-the-month pop-star/diva bunch. But I guess the challenge of finding things out on your own makes you appreciate the knowledge all the more. Thanks, 'Catters, for once again adding to my edu-ma-cation.

Bart

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Abby Sale
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 02:04 PM

Although I was reading the "Inferno" collection - Gordon's expurgated collection - and knew I was reading bawdy material, I admit I was also a bit surprised by "Appleknocker." I, too, had always taken the song to be a child's fantasy and now it's something rather else. But after a while I began to take it as a genuine Cautionary song. I think it is intended as much as a warning to young boys (punks) as it is intended as a humorous song. Maybe more so.

A "jocker" (per Milburn) is 'a tramp who has one or more boys to do his begging for him.' Clearly, though, it carries with it connotations of 'rider' and 'genitals' (old usage, now only with jock-strap.) A punk (punkerino is just to make the rhyme & scan) is always a young tyro but here, specifically a lad who travels with a jocker - his duties generally include sexual ones (see Merriam-Webster's Collegiate). I don't think I have to explain "apple knocker."

Subject: Big rock candy mountain
From: GUEST,Merry Bee
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 04:37 AM

I'm looking for the lyrics of the version that John Hartford sang in the soundtrack of the movie Down from the mountain. i've looked in the D.T but it's none of those offered. Any ideas?

Merry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Big rock candy mountain
From: masato sakurai
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 04:59 AM

Isn't it based on the Harry McClintock version?

BIG ROCK CANDY MOUNTAIN in the DT.

Several versions are posted in this thread: Big Rock Candy Mountain--Burle Ives' version.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 02:42 PM

i actually didmt understand the apple knocker part   
my mp3 version sung by who really knows doesnt say any of yhe gay references

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:45 PM

Quite interesting. I'd not seen any of the posts after my own above. One just loses track of these threads---and then moves on. McClintock was a great singer who influenced me quite a bit. Abby, a belated thank you!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:02 PM

I loved watching John do this song in the Down from the Mountain DVD but since this thread turned up I can not do the song myself. I guess folk music has to cover all the world's issues but I bet John wouldn't have done it if he knew it's origin. He admitted he was not familiar with it on the DVD. harp

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 08:57 PM

This can just be a wonderful sunny and fun-filled song:

For a long time, whenever I heard this song, it was simply a musical tall tale fantasy song making fun out of and light of what everyone pretty much knew already:----that there were no lemonade springs but some water was bad to drink----that cigaettes didn't grow on trees, but maybe they ought to----that some water did actually have gas bubbles infused in it, but it might not be good drinking water either.

Like many tall tales, these were lies told on purpose to poke fun at-- and possibly diminish-- the immensity of nature and the natural world. Humor was used to belittle life threatening natural occurances.

ie. a tornado that blew so strong that our hen laid the same egg three times.

ie. a part of Illinois so wet that the kids were all born with webbed feet.

ie. a part of Minnesota so cold that they took an icicle & shoved it up a beaver's ass & made the animal's teeth chatter. Then they'd take him by the scruff of the neck and mow the trees down like like a gas-powered saw.

To me, "Master Of The Sheepfold" isn't a religious song. I see it the way I want to see it. But I'd never deny myself the right to sing that great song just 'cause some say it is religious.

Harp, keep singing BRCM. (John sang the wrong words and and tune--but it's still fun.)

Art

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:37 PM

ah well you're right of course, Art. He did butcher that song, didn't he????LOL

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:03 AM

Knowing the antecedent doesn't, to me, decrease the charm of the version I sing, which is pretty close to the Burl Ives version. And I always remember that it's unlikely that anyone in the audience will know that old, objectionable song. Unless it's a group of knowledgeable folkies, of course.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Auggie
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 10:15 AM

Steve Goodman has my favorite version, totally innocent, recorded on his CD Santa Ana Winds.

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:41 PM

Having just bought and listened to "The Great American Bum" by Harry "Haywire Mac" McClintock (real name Harry Kirby McClintock, born 8th October 1882 in Knoxville, Tennessee, died 24th April 1957), rreleased by the British Archive of Country Music, 451 Folkestone Road, Dover, Kent, CT17 9JX, UNK, http:..bacm.users.btopenworld.com, the notes for "The Big Rock Candy Mountain" says "Locke, Tyner, Redwood Music LTD Vi 21704 [46454]rec. 6 Sep 1928".

This would imply someone else (or rather two) wrote the song. 10 of the 22 songs on the CD are apparently solely by McClintock, with 3 others co-authored by him with others, and 3 others "Trad., arr. McClintock"

The song following BRCM, "The Trusty Lariat", about a fireman who saves a baby from an approaching train, and is killed in the attempt, has the amusing last verse.



Oh we will all remember
That 45th (sic!) of May
For there were many gallant hearts
All filled with fear that day

They buried that poor fireman
Where the prairie wind blows wild
He killed 200 passengers
But, thank God, he saved the child.

Among the best tunes are "Trail to Mexico", "My last Old Dollar" and "Old Chisholm Trail"

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Abby Sale
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 05:50 PM

GUEST: I intend to believe that McClintock actually wrote everything he claimed to. Even if the song goes back before he was born. He was just that kind of guy - he got around. He was certainly writing and singing in 1928 - your Lock, et al reference might be his song. ??

Actually, I seem to recall a prototype of it as an English broadside.    I don't find it yet at the Bodleian. Roud gives: Family Herald & Weekly Star (Montreal) Old Favourites section 20 Nov 1929. Note that "Old Favourites." It has the standard title & first line.

Ah! I found what I was looking for. Bruce Olson (RIP) gave "An Invitation to Lubberland", (c 1685). You tell me if you think it's a root of BRCM. I won't argue the point at all.

An Invitation to Lubberland
          with
An Account of the great Plenty of that Fruitful Country


There is all sorts of Fowl and Fish,
                   With Wine and store of Brandy;
Ye have there what your hearts can wish:
                   The Hills are Sugar-Candy

To the tune of: Billy and Molly [lost] or, The Journey-man
    Shoemaker [Daniel Cooper].

    This may be Printed: R[ichard]. P[ocock]. [1685-1688]

There is a ship, we understand,
Now riding in the river;
'Tis newly come from Lubberland, [Rumbelo?]
The like I think was never;
You that a lazy life do love.
I'd have you now go over,
They say the land is not above
Two thousand leagues from Dover.

The captain and the master too,
Do's give us this relation,
And so do's all the whole ship's crew,
Concerning this strange nation:
"The streets are pav'd with pudding-pies,
nay, powder'd-beef and bacon,
They say they scorn to tell you lies:'
Who thinks it is mistaken.

The king of Knaves, and Queen of Sluts
Reign there in peace and quiet;
You need not fear to starve your guts,
There is such store of dyet:
There may you live free from all care,
Like hogs set up a fat'ning;
The garments which the people wear
Is silver, silk and satin.

The lofty buildings of this place
For many years have lasted;
With nutmegs, pepper, cloves, and mace,
The walls are there rough-casted,
In curious hasty-pudding boil'd,
And most ingenious carving;
Likewise they are with pancakes ty'd,
Sure, here's no fear of starving.

The captain says, "In every town,
Hot roasted pigs will meet ye,
They in the streets run up and down,
Still crying out, Come eat me",
Likewise, he says, "At every feast,
The very fowls and fishes,
Nay from the biggest to the least,
Comes tumbling to the dishes.

"The rivers run with claret fine,
The brooks with rich canary,
The ponds with other sorts of wine,
To make your hearts full merry:
Nay, more than this, you may behold,
The fountains flow with brandy,
The rocks are like refined gold,
The hills are sugar candy.

"Rose-water is the rain they have,
   Which comes in pleasant showers,
All places are adorned brave,
With sweet and fragrant flowers.
Hot custards grows on ev'ry tree,
Each ditch affords rich jellies;
Now if you will be ruled by me,
Go ther and fill your bellies.

"There's nothing there but holy-days
With music out of measure;
Who can forbear to speak the praise
Of such a land of pleasure?
There may you lead a lazy life
Free from all kind of labours:
And he that is without a wife,
May borrow of his neighbour.

"There is no law nor lawyer's fees
All men are free from fury,
For ev'ry one do's what he please,
Without a judge or jury:
The summer-time is warm they say,
The winter's ne'er the colder,
They have no landlords' rent to pay
Each man is a free-holder."


You that are free to cross the seas
Make no more disputation:
In Lubber-land you'll live at ease,
With pleasant recreation:
The Captain waits but for a gale
Of prosperous wind and weather,
And then they soon will hoist up sail,
Make haste saway together.

Printed for J. Deacon, at the Angel in Gilt-spur-street [1685-1701]

Play: B102, Daniel Cooper

Here we have direct imitation from the middle-English "The Land of Cokaygne".

Fur in see bi west Spaynge [Spain
Is a lond ihote Cokaygne [called
Ther nis lond under hevenriche
Of wel, of godnis, hit iliche [like it
Thogh Paradis be miri and bright
Cokaygne is of fairir sight.
..

...
The gees irostid on the spitte [geese roasted
Fless to the abbai, God hit wot [fly
And gredith, "Gees, al hote, al hot!" [cry out
..
That ye mote that lond ise [might .. see
And nevermore turne aye,
Prey we God so mote hit be [might it
Ame, pur seint charite.

This is obviously the original from which "The Big Rock Cady Mountain" draws. Similar is "Oleana".

And see Hal Rammel's Nowhere in American; The Big Rock Candy Mountain and Other Comic Utopias, 1990, with many examples and commentary.

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Stewie
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 06:12 PM

Meade gives 'Marshall P. Locke w&m, Charles Tyner m, 1906'. Other references given include George Milburn 'Hoboes Hornbook'[NYC :Ives, Washburn 1930], Botkin's 'Treasury of American Folklore' 1944, and Gordon Ms #822. [Meade et alia 'Country Music Sources' p311].

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:06 PM

When reviewing the book "Citizen Hobo: How a Century of Homelessness Shaped America. By Todd DePastino" Ms Abelson writes;

"Todd DePastino presents a complex argument. Using traditional sources and citing a mélange of songs (clarifying, in the process, the words of "Big Rock Candy Mountain," whose meaning has always puzzled me), dime novels, serious literature, letters, and the underground press, he makes a strong case for the life of unfettered white masculinity on the road. Racial exclusion, particularly of African Americans, seemed a given, and women who were not prostitutes were largely invisible in this new migratory world of casual labor. Homosexuality, which thrived in jungles and urban "main stems," was the unspoken reality of hobo sexual practice. Encouraged by an unrestrained male culture and the near absence of women, the "jocker/punk" relationship offered young men an easy way to get by and provided older men a degree of gender status outside the bounds of reigning middle-class behavior. Chapter Three, "Hallelujah, I'm a Bum," brings all these strands to life in a way that no other investigation of the road has done. DePastino writes with an exhilarating energy. The rest of the book, though richly textured and full of fascinating detail, particularly the section on the politics of the International Workers of the World, never quite recaptures the verve of the early chapters."

Like so many others here, the analysis of the song pointing to different interpretations has not changed my mind. It will always be a song about hopes expressed by desperate people trying to keep from starving to death.

Lyle

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:33 PM

This gives a slightly different, "tilt" to Uncle Barney's tales. He ran-off from home (too many chores and too much kindling to split) at age twelve to ride the rails and returned home at age fifteen.

Random House Dict.Am.Slang (many examples from 1919 to 1988)

apple-knocker n. 1. an ignorant rustic; a fool. 2. one who picks apples; (broadly) fruit picker. 3. an inexperienced youthful worker; naive newcomer, greenhorn.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:40 PM

Wow - In Random House Dict......what a curious set of def's for jocker....starting with "an agressive homosexual predicator esp. the protector of a catamite in prison." CATAMITE???

After the immediate holidays - perhaps - time will permit to post

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Big Rock Candy Mountain (Hartford)
From: Mark Ross
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 02:08 PM

That's the INDUSTRIAL Workers of the World, not International. That would be redundant!

Mark Ross(a member of the IWW for over 30 years)