BS: Cuba

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Airto
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 07:30 AM

Thanks very much, all of you, for a very worthwhile debate.

DougR, will you keep us posted on how that Bill you mentioned gets on with the Senate and the President?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 12:29 PM

The best way to find out about any place is to actually go there, but most of us are limited in funds and opportunities to do that.

As regards communism, it takes many different forms. It isn't just one monolithic "ism". There is nothing intrinsic in communism which denies having civil rights, freedom, or a democratic political system.

In practice, however, the originating communist system in Russia took power in a country which had always been ruled by autocrats (in the person of the Czar and the nobility). There had never been anything like real democracy in Russia. No sooner did that communist revolution succeed than it was attacked from outside by most of the major powers of the world at that time...through direct military intervention. Those attacks (around 1919 to 1920 approx.) failed to bring down the communists, but they did cause them to become very paranoid, militarist, and severely authoritarian in response.

When Stalin, one of the most paranoid dictators in history, took over the Soviet Union the situation was greatly worsened.

When the Nazis invaded Russia, the situation was worsened again.

When the Cold War started, it became even more dangerous than before.

These things have to be seen in their historical context.

There is nothing intrinsically authoritarian about either socialism or communism...or for that matter capitalism...but they can all become authoritarian under certain forms of leadership and certain conditions. Those conditions were endemic in Russia, and in China.

The socialism I have seen in Cuba is more benign than the fascism I have seen in Mexico. Far fewer police, far less poverty, less personal danger, and less fear.

That's why I admire what Cuba has accomplished, and in the face of far greater obstacles than Mexico, which has not been embargoed.

This does not mean that Cubans have the same freedoms as Canadians or Americans. They definitely do not.

On the other hand, they struck me as more mature and in touch with life than most North Americans...perhaps because they have not grown up on music videos and TV and Nintendo, but on dealing with actual reality...like cooking, farming, building your own bicycle out of parts, fixing your own car up, and all the hands-on realities of life.

All I can say is they impressed me a whole lot. And actually, so did the Mexicans, in their own way. They could teach North Americans quite a bit about self-reliance, and about community.

The fact about North America is that we have all been spoiled rotten by an excessive lifestyle, but we don't know it, because we simply take it for granted. You've got to go to a poorer place, and actually live with the local people, before you notice the difference.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Guest Dewey
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 05:36 AM

I must be honest Toad. I know very little about Guatamala and other nations Little Hawk mentioned so I probably had no business making that comparison.

I think Communist Cuba is worse because of the O.S.S. and C.D.R. It is a tattle-tell big brother Orwellian "we know what's best for you" government, I couldn't stand living under this type of government, and it is merely my OPINION that is worse that the other South American dictatorships. After all there are no travel restrictions in these other nations, and though I may on ocassion distrust our government I do believe it has an obligation not to send its citizen into dangerous places around the globe, and the state department put Cuba on the head of this list.

Politically speaking though guys... You've caught me with my pants down! After listening to LH a bit more, and with a little more research on South America, I may have to retract this statement. But I still hate Communism, and it amazes me that individuals who profess the joys of social justice would also embrace communism, There is not any justice in communism at all yet people seem to think it is a mere philosophical difference. NO DUE PROCESS! is this JUSTICE?

Dewey who still is probably talking too much, but is also learning a little too!

Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 04:57 AM

Well DougR, from my postings, I'm sure you will note that I love the U.S. Constitution, which has brought us the most stable and peaceful government in the history of the world. I love our free press, which keeps tabs on our government officials, I love our right to a lawyer I love the fact that we have the right to vote for who we want to represent us. I love the free entreprise system we have for its opportunities helping improve the lives of our fellow citizens through the competitive value of effort, while and the same time making us prosperous. In America unlike many countries I have no one else to blame but myself if I fail in life. I love the fact that my future is in my own hands, not in somebody elses. I love the Rugged Individualism and the diversity of of cultural and religious beliefs.

Thanks Little Hawk! I am relatively young and wasn't even alive during the Cuban Revolution. While I am still not a fan of it, I do want to thank you for opening up my eyes to the broader issues of Latin America.

Like many hear, I doubt most of us have ever spent much time researching all the beliefs we hold so dear. The politicians love this, becasue the entire world is ruled by deception.

If Ronald Reagan for example can call his trained and Armed Gourillas, FREEDOM FIGHTERS, and get Americans to believe this, he has won a victory: who could be against anyone fighting for FREEDOM.

Yes America is awesome! I know because I have lived here all my life and have had (by world standards) the most. social, religous and economic prosperity and freedom anybody could ever possibly enjoy.

That is because of the Genius of our founding fathers, not necessarily because our policies or government officals. But WE have a government, of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE and FOR the PEOPLE. AND WE SHOULD ALL BE GRATEFUL AND THANK GOD THAT WE DO! That is why I love America!

But this government will only remain sound, only if the people remain actively involved in their government. Digging deep into corruption, putting pressure on our congreesman etc. Even then, there is so much to do still. And much that cannot and probably will never be done to solve the worlds problems.

By the way, I have learned it is important to remove your ego entirely when you communication with others. Open your mouth very little or your ignorance may show on the issue you hold near and dear.

Shut your mouth long enough to learn something. So many times we THINK we have all the answers, But in reality we know very little. HUMILTY IS A VIRTUE AND IS HOW WE GROW AND LEARN AS HUMAN BEINGS if your wrong admit it! If you think your right, better make sure you are before you talk, as you are likely to embarrass yourself, should you get something wrong. No one knows everything so be sure to learn from others. Its the only way you will EVER learn anything.

THANKS LH for improving my education on this difficult issue.

I will keep my ears open in greater proportion than my mouth next time.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: toadfrog
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 07:50 PM

Doug R. is talking reasonable stuff here, although I probably differ on the fine points. But from GUEST, I would like to have some kind of explanation why "communist" dictatorships are worse than other dictatorships. Can it be because "communists" purport to speak for poor people? Or because they do, after all, do more than other dictatorships to promote health and literacy among the population? What have you got against literacy? Or because they challenge preexisting privileges? Kerala has at times had a democratically elected "communist" government. So has the City of Rome, I think. Are they our "enemies" too?

Hey GUEST, didn't we defeat communism by buying all those $500 toilet seats? Is China "communist" just because the ruling party, acting out of inertia, calls itself a "Communist Party"? To paraphrase that old song, I'd say they "preach communism, but they practice fascism, to preserve capitalism by the (party cadres)." What ya got against that, GUEST?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM

Doug - Yes. Che Guevara busted his ass to get into Cuba, and risked his life on Cuba's behalf repeatedly during the revolution. He came from Argentina. There have been others as well. Generally speaking, however, immigration is from poor countries to rich ones, not the other way around.

Your point about the Anglo students is well taken. They are being discriminated against. I have repeatedly opposed such racially motivated quota systems as being unjust, and in themselves discriminatory...fascism masquerading under the banner of liberalism or political correctness...so we agree on that one.

And yes, there has been much progress toward ending the old inequities in the USA.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 03:05 PM

But those inequalities you point out, LH, have or are being corrected in the U. S. It would not be correct, of course, were I to say that ALL inequalities have been erased. They haven't. But the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and legislation since then has gone a very long way toward leveling the playing field. Too some degree, there would be those who would argue that it has gone too far. For example, ask some Anglo pre-law students with excellent grades who were denied entry to the University of Michigan law school in order to attain a "balance" in attendees. Those folks are not discriminated against?

I would venture to say that there is not a country on earth that does not have it's own racial or religious problems within it's own boundries.

I haven't heard of anyone breaking their ass to get into Cuba, have any of you?

And Dewey, my friend, you did an excellent job of telling us what you don't like about the United States, yet profess to love it. What do you like about the United Sates?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 10:02 AM

Doug R - Did I say the USA is "a terrible place"? I don't think I did. I was recently on a trip down to New York and Pennsylvania, and found it really quite a nice place. I think I like Canada a tad better, but still the USA is in many respects a fine place to be.

The reason Latin Americans are "busting their asses" to get to the USA (and Canada!) is:

1. there's a lot more money to be made in North America

2. there's more social and political freedom for the individual

3. there's a richer consumer lifestyle available

This is obvious. Cuba is no exception to the rest of Latin America, in that its people would like to live in North America, where the opportunities are greater. I've covered all this ground before...

It is not that the USA is a "terrible place", it is that its policies in other places outside its own borders have a terrible effect, in many cases.

Remember "all men are created equal"? Somehow that didn't used to apply to Indians, did it? Or blacks? Or women?

It doesn't seem to presently apply to 3rd World people or non-Americans either.

That was my point, not that the USA is a terrible place. It's a pretty good place that could use improvements in its foreign policy.

I am pleased to hear that the travel restrictions are being lifted.

Dewey - I find your comments refreshingly reasonable, in that you're willing to consider both sides of an issue.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 09:48 AM

I know I am setting myself up to be knocked down but how free are poor Americans who can't afford suitable health care or legal representation.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 09:30 AM

LH! Your last posting was the most interesing and informative I have heard yet on this subject, especially your profound comments on "Guns pointed at the poor" funded by the U.S.

I guess I never thought about such exploitations by dictators. Seems logical that this would occur though.

I still say the Communist Government is a worse system however because of its Articles and Communist Constitution.

Cuba is the enemy because it is Communist. (Communism vs. Capitalism), not just because of its dictatorship style government.

I will however freely admit I am a radical and in the minority in my opinion of the travel restrictions.

I would love to visit Cuba too! But I would do so only if if the country some day became free (meaning no more Castro OR Batista Style Whore Houses)

I suppose everyone thinks that this is the wish of a "Green American"

God knows it is my hope and prayer that Cuba may some day be different than it currently is!

Thanks!

A more informed and humbled Dewey!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 06:14 AM

O.K. Little Hawk You are right about the U.S.A. and its third world policies. Castro would not have to organize the Ibero-American summit (hope I spelled that right) with Venezula Mexico and other South American Nations if it weren't for the Multi-national Corporate Interests of the United States that are being protected, add on the free trade and you really have a recipe for disaster in the undeveloped world. You are right in this respect we are not Angels when it comes to exporting economic freedom, hence Castro's justification of the Regime. Castro by the way defends his regime in a very interesting book, "HIstory Will Absolve Me"

Castro compared the world economy to a ship with two levels: the top containing the wealthy nations, the bottom containing the third world, and he also goes on to say. "the ship has hit an iceberg and is sinking". (actually I don't hate Castro completely he is a smart and interesting dictator, and economically no one can deny what he says is true)

I hope nobody thinks that just because I love America (which I do!) that I think that is always in the right in everything it does. Contrare! (how every it spelled) The world is fast changing and the U.S.A. is going to have to change with it.

The U.S. has been kicked off of the UN human rights commission this time around. I am aware that the rest of the world probably hates us for our lack of humanitarian concerns (aids, abm missile treaty abandonment, lack of respect for the sovereignty of other nations, 10 year sanctions in Iraq etc.)

We have also supported South American Dictators and the CIA assasins at the School of the Americas. Policy-wise and historically our record is bad too and is a cotributing factor of the Castro Regime.

Castro's government was ripe for the history of the time. No wonder he was a success. No wonder the Bay of Pigs failed. People supported his policies. BUT what you have in Cuba is a compromise:

No freedom of thought, speech, association, etc. He has placed a band-aid on a very deep wound. Temporarily the wound heals, but it never is completely healed.

Our human rights record isn't perfect either. But we do have laws though to protect the individual, not just the government. And we have due process, access to attorneys and other little goodies missing in the Castro government. As least are citizens can think for themselves and don't have to leave their country or go to prison when they expose the corruptions of THIER government.

I understand people don't like me making these comparisons as economically and politically they seem like apples and oranges. It still puzzles me though that people are still willing to accept Castro's Human Rights Record as O.K. so long as social equality is maintained. That is an insult to those people down there, and it is even more insulting when people up here say they have no problem with cuba and would "love to live there"

Just remember if you go there, you won't be saying very much, nor will you be coming back. Be sure to bring a lot of supplies, but leave your lawyer at home: he will be of no use to you, should you mess up!

A one way ticket would be the cheapest and most logical way to go.

Dewey! Who Still Loves America and is free to say what things about it he doesn't like!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 01:14 AM

Well, Crazy Eddie, and my friend, LH: if the U.S. is such a terrible place, as LH believes, why are those folks breaking their asses (and saddly losing their lives in many cases) to get here? Why aren't they using the same energy to get to Cuba?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 05 Aug 01 - 12:59 AM

Hawk,
You hit the nail right on the head.
Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: DougR
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 08:51 PM

I've been out of town for a couple of days so I don't know if anyone has posted this news or not, but a bill passed the U. S. House of Representatives last week that lifts the ban on travel to Cuba by U. S. citizens. From an editorial in the Arizona Republic, Wednesday, August 1, 2001: "Arizona's own Rep. Jeff Flake (a Republican)sponsored the measure, an amendment to a Treasury appropriations bill." Speculation is that the Senate will pass the bill and the President will sign it.

I think the embargo will be the next thing to go.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 11:58 AM

Dewey - As I have pointed out before, all of Latin America is trying to get into the United States. The fact that a majority of them try to do it across the Mexican border is because that is the most direct and practical route. Many have risked their lives and many have died in attempting that crossing. Many others have been arrested and turned back, since they do not have the benefit of being considered "refugees", though they are fleeing for the same reasons that Cubans do...and worse.

If Mexico were an island, like Cuba, then the number of rafts you would see coming toward the United States would by far larger than the present flow from Cuba.

While countries like Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua have given their people oppression WITHOUT universal schooling, high literacy, low infant mortality, and free modern health care...Cuba has given them oppression WITH all of those benefits.

Before Castro, Cuba had far worse oppression with NONE of those benefits...and that was with the support of the USA.

Castro has improved the lot of most Cubans, although he did not improve the lot of the landowners, and the wealthier class of business people, and the rich who fled to Miami.

How does this add up to a blanket condemnation of Castro and his government, when not seen in isolation by eyes that are only concerned with demonizing communists, regardless of other aspects of the situation?

To compare daily life in Cuba to life in the USA is about as misleading as doing the same comparison between the USA and Guatemala. Cubans and Guatemalans have NEVER been in a position to enjoy the lifestyle of North Americans, nor the social freedoms of North Americans, and the USA has NEVER done anything that would assist them in reaching such a position.

That this is so is due to historical and geographical factors, not to the struggle between communist and capitalist theory.

The USA supports dictatorships that play ball with American industry and opposes dictatorships that do not.

America does not export freedom to anyone. They keep it all for themselves. America exports arms and buys cheap labour wherever it can be found, and the cheapest labour is in a 3rd World dictatorship (which may or may not hold bogus elections from time to time, like in the Phillipines or Indonesia...but those change nothing for the poor, because the rich command the guns).

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 08:25 AM

see article now entilted, "Castro's Constitutional Law and Changes Needed to Restore the Rule of Law"at www.cubafreepress.org

This is the reason for the restricted travel. And remember travellers, everything that glitters is not gold. The Tourist based Cuba may look quite nice, but it is a far cry different from the real Cuba that people die to leave when political heat turns up. Of coarse we American's are going to see only the best of everything, Castro needs our money and must put on a good impression.

If a young cuban girl can go to jail because I compassionately hand her a buck, Just image what could happen to me had I not any bucks to give Castro and was a native. Could I still stay (and for that matter afford) the big hotels that line the Havanna Beach Front? Would I still be able to sail away with a millionaire yauht owner FREELY without being chased down by the communists and returned to the mainland possibly to go to prison, or face a fine.

I think our policy makesperfect sense, even the Cuban Adjustment act for that matter as more cuban citizens are wanting to leave cuba (and not just because of finances) and we have no choice but to provide them a home on the other end.

We are nt encouraging this travel but actually discourage it! But with a fleeling people facing political persecution what can you do but take them in. They will leave on their own accord reguardless of what we do.

They are not criminals for leaving, we are not criminals for going. The true criminals are the one's who rule the Island: namely Castro's Ilk, they have created the exile problem and the policy we have, and feel free to talk to a cuban expatriot if you doubt me!

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 07:12 AM

Cuban Constition: Article 3, Article 73, Article 103, Article 206, Article 208. for more info. visit www.cubafreepress.org. AS for Cuba: Feel free to belt your neighbor with a club if he doesn't agree with you, or doesn't wish to hang out with you! until he DOES! Don't forget to hand him over to FIDEL for Furthur Punishment when your through with him!

We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL, and endowed with certain inaliable RIGHTS: THE RIGHT TO LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS!

Show me where these things exist in Cuba?: Freedom of Association! Freedom of the Press! Freedom of Religion!

The end justifies the means in Cuba, and people are sent away to prison not for any criminal wrongdoing, but merely for being different from others in thier opinions and associations.

Give me America, if only half of my brothers and sisters, can talk freely and the other half cannot.

To be "free" in Cuba means to agree with Castro, then you are relatively free. But what about the other half of that are not allow thier freedom of association, speech, religion etc. but still love thier counrty! Do they not have rights! They must face prison or leave Cuba behind, basically: a Divided Cuba.

Cuba will someday be free in my lifetime because as Lincoln said:

"A Nation Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand" Lincoln.

Not even with oppressive force of tyranny when the numbers grow too large.

Communism requires effort to work, and it does not last Forever. Bullying your own people never works long term!

But THIS nation of the PEOPLE, by the PEOPLE, and for the PEOPLE shall not vanish from the face of this earth.

God Bless America!

Dewey A Proud American who respects the opinions of other and promises not to beat you up even if he disagrees with you!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: uncle bill
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 05:23 AM

Thank you Dewey, you have been right on and objective. The fact is, no one is lining up at the docks or airports to move to Cuba (touristas not incl), but there sure are a lot of people risking their lives to get out.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,toadfrog
Date: 04 Aug 01 - 01:03 AM

If the Cuban community in Florida were not as powerful as I said, a guy named Al Gore would be the president of the United States. And we would have chucked the sillier aspects of the blockade a long time ago.

What really grabs me about this debate is how nostalgic many people seem to be for the cold war. Why should anyone want to bring that back (except maybe Republicans nostalgic for the good old Reagan days)? What earthly reason is there to go on fighting "communism" (Or, for that matter, defending it)? Castro's Cuba would be a lousy place to live. It's a dictatorship. But I can think of even lousier places, like maybe Guatemala under the government we set up there, or Nicaragua under Somoza. At no time was I ever convinced that the two "alternatives" for humanity were the deeply flawed system we have in the United States, and the truly horrible system set up by Stalin. Or that to criticize one of these systems was to praise the other.

I do not for one minute believe Cuban statistics about infant mortality, or literacy or anything else. But I will bet you anything that their infant mortality rate is lower than than in the United States, whose rate compares unfavorably to that of Jamaica.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 07:45 PM

If the Cuban community in Miami were as powerful as Todfrog seems to think, Elian Gonzales would still be here.

Think again.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 10:45 AM

Yep. Money buys votes. Or rearranges them in a convenient fashion, through some sort of arcane procedure. A minority of the votes frequently elects a majority of one party in Canada, for instance...even when that one party holds a position that is opposed by a majority of the voting public, as has happened in Ontario and on the national level more than once now.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,toadfrog
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 11:40 PM

Gee, Cuba sure seems to be a litmus test. But note that there is nobody on this thread, no matter how conservative, who thinks our policy toward Cuba is particularly wise. But the answer to the question "why does Uncle Sam hold a grudge" is ridiculously simple. Uncle Sam holds a grudge because there is a very wealthy, influential, and activist Cuban-American community in Florida. Florida, as you may have noticed, influences the outcome of presidential elections. And all that money, deployed by activists, buys political influence far beyond the state boundary. As the Germans would say, it's Primat der Innenpolitik. And for that reason, our Cuba policy is not really going to change for a good long time.

It is just that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 07:50 PM

ROTFLMAO!!! What a great story! Should happen to every American tourist.

I've read several books about the revolution, and if you were there it would have been hard not to admire him, unless you were among those on the top of the heap. Several of his own family repudiated him and went to Miami, because he nationalized the Castro plantation along with all the others. His family had been quite well off in the Batista days. He gave the land to the people who worked on it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Gareth
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 07:36 PM

Oi ! Little Hawk. none of your colonial attacks on our Maggie - When she slowley swings from a lampost, let it be done by her domestic victims !!!!

Which reminds me of the story of the visiting US of A tourist in Cuba.

He decided to find out what Cubans really thought about Fidel. He questioned many but none would say a thing.

Eventually he found one who indicated he would talk, but not there.

The American followed this Cuban deep into the Cane field, miles from anywhere, a good search meant that there were no eavsdropper, then the Cuban whispered "Actually I admire the man".

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 05:47 PM

Yeah. I frequently let drivers in here in Canada, and sometimes they are so astonished that they almost don't know what to do...

I have observed that the average female driver is FAR more inclined to let other people in than the average male driver (again, in Canada). This makes me a nonconformist to my gender. Nothing new about that.

I am rather in favour of the matriarchy taking over. I think a lot of things would improve. :-) Maggie Thatcher was the exception to that!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 05:23 PM

"When someone is about to make his move, he simply toots on the horn AND THE OTHER DRIVERS LET HIM IN!!!!!!" - that's how it worked on Irish roads away from the cities a few years ago anyway. You'd come up behind a lorry, and it'd pull off and drive on the shoulder of the road to let you pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 04:52 PM

Airto - Cuban tires are frequently bald, but not always... I saw an incredible variety of vehicles there. Everything from the 30's right up to the latest makes, with, of course, a lot of old cars. Some of the antique ones are in good shape, but most are all beat up inside and out. There are also plenty of horsedrawn carriages in the towns, which are cheap and fun to ride in.

There are virtually no traffic lights, virtually no cops to be seen, and it all moves along at a lively pace at every speed from 5 mph to 60 mph. Each vehicle drives at its own typical speed, regardless of the others, so there's a lot of weaving in and out. This doesn't seem to present a problem to Cubans, because...when someone is about to make his move, he simply toots on the horn AND THE OTHER DRIVERS LET HIM IN!!!!!!

I know this is hard for North Americans to believe...

I saw virtually no road rage in Cuba, for the simple reason that they let the other guy in.

Shocking isn't it? Makes you wonder. Not like Mexico, where there frequent fist fights (and worse) in intersections, due to not letting the other guy in. Nobody willingly lets the other guy in in Mexico.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 12:38 PM

Amos,

That would make a good song challenge.

Bay of Pigs gets Crabs!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Airto
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 12:11 PM

I'd imagine Cuban tyres must be rather bald.

Speaking of baldness, if you see what I mean, does Castro's beard qualify him as a folkie?

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 11:11 AM

How did you achieve that remarkable effect Amos? Anyway, here it is in a more leigible format:

I concur that we should relax a little. The restraints aimed at Cube, over the years, were primarily based on the fact that it was totalitarian.

On a lighter vein, they have a problem which even the Everglades doesn't offer -- tire-popping crab dances:

4 April '01 Land Crabs Close Cuban Road As they do for a month or so each northern hemisphere spring, daily dawn and dusk migrations of land crabs are making an historic Cuban road impassable and keeping tire-repairers busy.

Particularly hard hit is the 30km (20mi) stretch of coast road to the beach resort of Playa Giron, in the Bay of Pigs, where millions of crabs scuttle from inland swamps to the sea to mate. Millions make it but millions don't, becoming bizarre road-kill and leaving a thick, spikey, orange-pink mess on the road that not only smells bad but also punctures the tires of a high proportion of passing cars. One local who fixes flat tires claims to repair up to 100 a day during the crab-mating season.

At the recent conference held at Playa Giron marking the 40th anniversary of the Bay of Pigs invasion, Cuban officials warned conference-goers that they'd have to leave by 4pm in order to miss the dusk migration and get back to Havana. Locals claim that if the 1500 CIA-trained invaders who tried to overthrow Fidel Castro in April 1961 had actually managed to get ashore, they wouldn't have got far without a lot of spare tires.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 09:10 AM

I concur that we should relax a little. The restraints aimed at Cube, over the years, were primarily based on the fact that it was totalitarian.

On a lighter vein, they have a problem which even the Everglades doesn't offer -- tire-popping crab dances:

4 April '01                                         Land Crabs Close Cuban Road                                          As they do for a month or so each                                         northern hemisphere spring, daily                                         dawn and dusk migrations of land                                         crabs are making an historic                                         Cuban road impassable and                                         keeping tire-repairers busy.                                         Particularly hard hit is the 30km                                         (20mi) stretch of coast road to the                                         beach resort of Playa Giron, in the                                         Bay of Pigs, where millions of                                         crabs scuttle from inland swamps                                         to the sea to mate. Millions make it                                         but millions don't, becoming                                         bizarre road-kill and leaving a                                         thick, spikey, orange-pink mess on                                         the road that not only smells bad                                         but also punctures the tires of a                                         high proportion of passing cars.                                         One local who fixes flat tires                                         claims to repair up to 100 a day                                         during the crab-mating season.     

								At                                         the recent conference held at                                         Playa Giron marking the 40th                                         anniversary of the Bay of Pigs                                         invasion, Cuban officials warned                                         conference-goers that they'd have                                         to leave by 4pm in order to miss                                         the dusk migration and get back                                         to Havana. Locals claim that if the                                         1500 CIA-trained invaders who                                         tried to overthrow Fidel Castro in                                         April 1961 had actually managed                                         to get ashore, they wouldn't have                                         got far without a lot of spare tires.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 08:08 AM

As far as ending oppression in Cuba goes, I believe the biggest step forward thus far occurred when Fidel kicked out Batista, back in 1959 I think it was....

Some further efforts in that regard are still needed, however, as they are in most other Latin American countries, and those are not Communist.

Some further efforts against oppression are needed in Canada and the USA too. I know of cases of cops severely beating and even killing people in Canada, without cause or justification. It's rare, but it happens. There are bad cops, and the ranks tend to close and protect their own when misdeeds occur.

Then there is the reverse, when cops do have entirely legitimate cause to use force, and the "victim" claims that it's nothing more than police brutality or racism or some other excuse. It happens everywhere.

Communism, per se, is not the problem. Oppression is the problem. Either communism or capitalism or socialism can work rather well...in the absence of oppression and undue exploitation of people and nature.

But all systems prefer to imagine that a competing system is wholly evil, while they themselves are under the blessings of all that is right and good.

That's human egotism for you.

"propaganda, all is phony" (Bob Dylan)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 11:41 PM

Murray, the cops do beat people here at times. In Canada too sometimes. That is why they carry clubs. If you ask someone why the cops hit them they never say it was because they had it coming. They claim racism oppression etc. That is the way crooks are they blame others. The beating may be something sinister but it may be cops dealing with Cuban scum.

There is an excellent article in the lates "economist" about the embargo. They condemn it. Not for moral reasons but because it is stupid and is counterproductive to the stated goals.

The best thing the USA could possibly do to end communism and opression in Cuba is to allow US citizens to spend money there.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 10:06 PM

Kevin, are you suggesting that the FBI are in the habit of beating up people who "fraternise with the wrong people"?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 09:17 PM

I suppose there must be quite a lot Cuba still has in common with its big neighbour, for example, playing baseball. This sounds like another for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM

Just met a guy who says he has a friend who got beaten up by government agents in Cuba for some reason...fraternizing with the wrong people or something? I don't know. I will have to find out more the next time we can talk, as there wasn't time to go into it much.

So...you all know how pro-Cuban I am, but this bears looking into, and I will...

See ya,

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 07:30 PM

The negative effects of the blockade These being that it makes a lot of people despise the USA for bullying a samll neighbour?

I can't see that making the people in charge in Washington and in big business losing much sleep about that. And I can't see it weighing heavily against the tangible benefits for them of having a continent keep in line.

No empire ever worried too much about being popular, except maybe when it was crumbling.

Still, that's a quibble. Either way you see it, that blockade is wrong.

And here's a link to the Lonely Planet guide to Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Airto
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 04:55 AM

Sure the blockade has hurt the Cuban economy and made life more difficult for ordinary Cubans, McGrath.

The point I was trying to make, though, was that if the objective of US policy is to ultimately draw Cuba into its sphere of influence, then the blockade has backfired.

It has slowed rather than accelerate the process while handing its opponents a propaganda victory.

I take your point about the intended deterrent to other countries in the region, but I can't see that this would outweigh, not even from a realpolitik perspective, the negative effects of the blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:28 PM

Say, here's another great example: Most stock market fraud is committed by white guys in business suits!

Is that a racist statement?

Nope, it's just the truth, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:01 PM

Wow. Go away for a couple of days and...

Okay, guys, I have no problem with you being patriotic American citizens. Perfectly understandable. I'm a patriotic Canadian. My government, which is democratic, gets along fine with Cuba.

I met Cubans who want out, and Cubans who are deeply patriotic to Cuba and its present system. I did not meet ONE communist. Not one. I don't think they are very common down there. I met quite a few socialists.

The church I visited while down there no doubt does require a state license, as all forms of organized activity do...such as your local cantina, store, or whatever. So? I think businesses and institutions in the capitalist world require some form of official documentation before they are allowed to set up shop, don't they?

The church I visited was the Presbyterian church. It is privately funded, and does a lot of community services in Cardenas Cuba, such as meals on wheels to seniors, and a farm which grows food for the local community, and an ecological project. All done with privately raised funds. The Cuban government highly approves of the church's activities, but is not directly involved in them in any way.

The people in that church (and Cubans in general) struck me as among the most sincerely and deeply religious people I have ever seen. It looks to me like churches are thriving in Cuba. Perhaps your info is out of date...

At the time of the revolution, many of the churches were allied with the rich, and the rich supported Batista. The Castro government was definitely hostile to those churches, as they were hostile to it. No big surprise there. I have seen no evidence of an anti-religious stance by the Cuban government in a general sense, however, quite the contrary.

I would honestly LOVE to live in Cuba, but do not think that I think it's perfect there! I do not. It's just got quite a few very good points, that's all, and every place is a compromise in one way or another.

I do not believe the child labour thing. I met Cubans who were very anti-Castro, and full of criticisms of the government, and not one of them brought up such an issue. What they complained about was: lack of freedom of the press, lack of freedom to criticize government policy, various restrictions on travel outside Cuba (if you can afford to...which many cannot), and having a permanent president-for-life in the form of Castro, plus a ruling inner clique who are not elected.

Elections themselves on the other hand...hell, they have 'em, folks, with multiple candidates on a civic, and state level, etc. I don't know the details, but I didn't hear any complaints about that whatsoever. Elections are a normal fact of life down there....but do not affect the aforementioned inner clique at the very top.

Most of the rafts are headed north. Yep. That's where all the money is. Take a look at the Mexican border and you will see that all of Latin America is headed north. So? How does this condemn Cuba? Asians are also desperate to get into North America. Same deal. This is not a matter in which Cuba differs, except that Cuba treats its people way better than most of Latin America or Asia does. Still, the money is in the USA, so that's where the migrants are headed.

Dewey - I appreciate your comments, but PLEASE hit the "enter" key a couple of times and break up the paragraph! It helps people to read what you have to say.

Some else said something about self-reliance (they supposedly are taught not to have it in their schools). Gosh, people! I never have seen young folks with so much maturity, good sense, and self-reliance as I saw in Cuba.

I am astounded you think they are not self-reliant. Truly astounded. But then, I have been there.

Loopy - About your statistic regarding black men and violent crime...? I would not be a bit surprised if you are in fact correct in that statistic. I don't know if you are, but I wouldn't be surprised. There is indeed a form of thought around these days which does not permit the stating of a fact about a minority if it is a fact with any negative ramifications. That is deeply sad, and has nothing whatsoever to do with freeing minorities or anyone else. It's fascism masquerading as liberalism, also called political correctness. I believe it is also true that most violent crimes committed by black males are against other blacks in black neighborhoods. If anyone thinks I am racist for saying that, then man, they are lazy thinkers! I was a very strong supporter of Martin Luther King and his struggle for equal rights. Equal rights does not mean: we are now a people above criticism, no matter what we do to anyone ever, because we were once treated wrongfully by someone. It means EQUAL rights. Period. Which means if something is seriously wrong in black America (and it is), people should not be afraid to say so...for fear of being labelled "racist".

The O.J. Simpson trial was a classic case of such an attitude gone right out of control. Ask Christopher Darden (hope I got his first name right...) about that! He was called every name in the book. including "racist" and "Uncle Tom", as well as more graphic terms.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM

Well, I WAS in Havana in 1956. A whore house on every corner, and casinos up the ----. Men running the streets with Thompson sub machine guns! Great neighborhood to raise kids.

They are far better off under Castro than what I saw with my own eyes.

Why are we holding a grudge? you saw the aftermath of the Elian flap, how many south Florida voters voted for Gore? How many of them would vote for ANY candidate who wanted to ease tensions between us and Cuba?

You folks who want to maintain the restrictions, why have you not mentioned the fact that all those Cuban motorists are driving valuable antique cars? (sarcasm intended)

I heard that Clinton was more concerned about where that cigar CAME from than where it went.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:11 PM

If you were a Cuban you'd have NO CHOICE but to take CUBA!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:04 PM

"I'll still take the USA any day"

And as an American I'd expect you to. But that's not what the argument is about, it's about whether the USA has the right to impose its wishes on a small neighbour.

I know that if I was a Cuban I'd take Cuba anyday, for one simple reason. Nothing can weigh in the balance against those infant mortality figure. Can anyone seriously think that they can - if it was their child?

If I had to trade the life of my children against greater prosperity and less red tape, I'd choose the life of my children.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:37 PM

I don't know about Murray's opinions either as he was nice enough to give a quick response instead of a long speech like mine. I try not to judge anyones view until they have spoken long enough to gather information on what those view are. Yes Cuba is a model for infant mortality and the U.S. is not which IS VERY tragic and inexcuseable. I'll still take the USA any day, I too am poor and have had financial help with diabetes in the past year, and I wasn't just thrown out on the streets by the evil capitalists. America is still filled with great citizens and good people, unlike many countries. By the way Humility is a virtue and is how we grow as human beings, so let's practice it here as we chat with one another!

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:38 PM

By isolating his regime the blockade has actually insulated Cuba against the normal changes one might have expected through the sheer gravitational pull of a superior power up against a weaker neighbour. (Airto).

Which I strongly suspect has been the aim of the blockade. The economic blockade makes life harder for the Cubans, and it makes it harder for the Cuban government to relax the kind of restrictions that go with being a small country at war (cf Britain in 1940 on)(or, if you prefer, it makes it easier for the Cuban government to resist any pressures to relax the restrictions etc).

But the main target is outside Cuba. The blockade serves to warn other people from going down the Cuban road, by showing the terrible cost they will incur if they defy, anger and humiliate their big neighbour.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:06 PM

I will agree with you on the point of infant mortality. It is truly inexcusable for the U.S. to have a higher rate than Cuba. That can be largely attributed to the amount of drug addict mothers in America, I would think. I don't think Cuba has as much of a drug problem, but I'm not sure. Bush has proposed that federal money be alotted for prenatal care just as it could be provided to children and adults in need. Maybe this is a step towards improving infant mortality rates?

I'll also agree that ending the blockade makes sense, if only so I can enjoy the best cigars in the world more than once in a lifetime :-) Ending the blockade would make the U.S. out to be the good guy, would start the move towards Cuba becoming a bigger part of the world economy (since it can no longer sell all it's sugar to Russia), and would probably help loosen the bounds of Communism over time.

One thing I think that would be most beneficial would be to allow free travel to and from Cuba, and for Castro to allow Cubans to immigrate to the U.S., or at least apply if they desire. That is the one thing that still baffles me about the supposedly superior Communist system of Cuba: Everything is provided to everyone, yet people can't wait to leave to join the "enemy" for a chance to be free and survive on their own. And Castro has to make laws banning such actions. It's pretty amazing that the U.S. would probably have to put up fences keeping people out (I don't endorse that) rather than keeping them in.

I hope my posts haven't seemed overly argumentative. I said what I had to to defend my positions. I certainly enjoy these spirited debates, and try to keep in mind the first two letters of the thread topic when writing and reading posts....

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:14 PM

(To make a new paragraph, just make sure that you have a lot of space between each paragraph. Press the enter key a couple of times.)

I think that the US should relax its blockades of Cuba. Cuba is a small country, and it is responsible for its own people. If the government is communist, it is the government's perogative. Just as if the US wants to be democratic, it has the right to be so within its own borders.

I really wish that the US would clean up its own act, instead of pointing fingers at all the "atrocities" other countries do. Yes, the other countries have documented cases of human rights violations. So does the US.

Take care of your own turf first, your own people's freedom and comfort, and then be worried about the rest of the world.

When a country is so obsessed with fighting "evil" in another country that it is neglecting its own people, there is something drastically wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Airto
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:01 PM

I for one am glad to see some diversity of opinion in this thread.

If I were a pragmatist in the CIA, concerned purely with US strategic interests, I would probably argue even from that narrow perspective that the US blockade has helped more than hindered Castro.

By isolating his regime the blockade has actually insulated Cuba against the normal changes one might have expected through the sheer gravitational pull of a superior power up against a weaker neighbour.

And it has also handed him a propaganda victory. To ban US citizens from visiting Cuba, in the name of liberty, doesn't look to good from the outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM

Well, I read Dewey's last post, because, being relatively short, it didn't need the paragraph breaks. I haven't read the previous ones, for the reason I gave - but no matter, since I gather from the first sentence in the one I did read that he know thinks they included "lies". (I imagine he means exaggerations, or things that he thinks he could have put better.)

So Dewey thinks Castro is better than the previous regime, which was supported by the American government, and that Castro, although a tyrannical idiot, has some good things for which he should be commended. Also that the USA has messed up and exploited its Latin American neighbours. At the same time Dewey loves the United States, and prefers not to live in Cuba, and doesn't like the Cuban government much.

Fair enough. Doesn't seem too controversial. I'd have thought anyone thinking that way would be wholly opposed to the economic blockade of Cuba, which is what this thread has been about.

Whatever the failings of the regime headed by Castro may be, noone can doubt that the lives of the Cuban people have been made far worse by the blockade. It also seems clear that it has had the effect of blocking any movement towards greater liberalisation and relaxation of government controls.

But then making life harder for ordinary Cubans has surely been a central aim of the blockade. And of course above all, preventing any danger of a move towards "socialism with a human face," which would be a serious danger. (That explains why there is no problem in making fruiends with China.)

(But honestly, Dewey, breaking up the text into readable chunks is the easiest thing in the world,and it really is worth the effort.) |

Subject: RE: BS: Cuba
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 11:18 AM

Posted before seeing your last contributions, Dewey - you obviously have a broader view than came out in that first post. (Don't know about Murray though). Loopy, I can't speak for anyone else, but the health measure I've been using has been infant mortality. To me it is utterly utterly inexcusable that more kids per thousand die before age 5 in the wealthy USA than in impoverished Cuba (many more, in some specific states and cities).