BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs

Subject: Canadian Bands and Us Jobs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 06:53 PM

I am off to hear a band from Canada called the Glengarry Bhoys. I have heard them before at some venues and felt I was hearing yelling with drums. But I aiways give people the benfit of the doubt and I'm off to hear them again.

These guys play in the Central New York area very often. At the risk of sounding like sour grapes I think they are able to get jobs that New York bands, mine included, because of the disparity with Canadian and US money.

Basically they can charge less than we can and take it home and have considerablly more dollar power because of the greater value of US money.

Ofcourse it cuts bothways, Its easier now for some places to hire Garnet Rogers, Great Big Sea, and the esteemable Rick Fielding.

I wonder if I'm the only one who has noticed this? I mentioned it about 18 months ago and had little or no reply. But have things changed in the year and a half since.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: reggie miles
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM

I was chatting with a friend who said that when a busker friend of her's went to Canada he was grilled at the border as to his intentions. He said that he might do some performing for tips and as it turned out he did. Well then when he returned he was taken aside again by the border authorities and asked if in fact he did earn any money while there. He admitted to having made around $500 and they told him it was a good idea that he came clean because they had taken photographs of him performing. Is this a common occurance??? Then they taxed him at a rate of about 40%. Yikes!

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:18 PM

reggie... photos of a criminal act involving $500 !!! that's almost as scandolous as the Bhoys charging money for playing and yelling the sames riffs over and over and over and... you get the idea. Perhaps they should photograph (record) the Bhoys and charge them with something ?.... repetivitivity ad nauseuminum ?

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:32 PM

We got tired of all that border crap, so, there are some of us who go to New Brunswick for a weekend of music and visiting in August, then they come to Maine in February and do the same thing. No One makes any money, so, our respective governments get squat from it. I guess the theory is, that if Rick does a performance in the states, that he is replacing an American musician, or, if Gordon Bok does a performance in Canada, that HE is displacing a Canadian performer. Ridiculous! There is only one Rick Fielding, and, there is only one Gordon Bok. Of course, bureaucrats dont have to be very bright, so, they're not. When I went to Scotland, the Immigration officer told me that I could not work for pay unless I wanted to be a guest of her majestys government. It's a good thing I dont articulate every thought that crosses my mind! I'd probably end up in Newgate, or, Wapping Stairs!

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 07:34 PM

Good lord... did I post that ? What's wrong with my keyboard breathalyser ? You would have thought it would have shut down my link long before I posted anything as crass and rude as that. I apologize to all... especially to the Bhoys. They got some good tunes !!! It was uncalled for, rude and completely in character for a drunken asshole. I'd better go sleep this off.

gnightgnu.... geez I fell stupid... and I feel stupid, too

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:45 PM

Well, I'm back. And I was underwhelmed. This is an open air venue and the system used was very small indeed for wide open spaces. Four very small speakers on stands. I think they may be adequate indoors but outside there is just too much air to push. Consequently I only heard drums and bass most of the time, very little vocally that was understandable. A very pretty fiddler who played AND danced very well. But thge mix was too poor for me to be objective. Now the question is this: When my band takes the same stage tomorrow night will we sound any better? And since the Bhoys and ghirl will be there will they be as underwhelmed as I? But back to the point of the thread. H

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Jul 01 - 09:49 PM

How is it Canadian bands can come to the USA and play when we can't cross the border without paying a significant penelty? Can I expect the same spendability back home from a Canadian venue that the Bhoys can get from one in the US?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From:
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:05 AM

From what I understand, it isn't quite that easy to go down to the states and work. I believe you have to be able to fill out quite a number of forms, and be invited. The venue/promoter has to handle all the documentation for the US Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:09 AM

F.....g politics

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM

The situation has changed a number of times over the years, but at no time did Canadian bands have access to playing in the States, without the proper paperwork, attendant fees, and membership in the American federation of Musicians. For many years there had to be "proof" that an American Musician's union performer did not play the identical music. (it wasn't based on skill, only "style'.) During that time there were no restrictions on Americans playing in Canada. A work permit could be obtained AFTER the gig and after the performer had returned to the States.

For a number of years (fairly recently) the States insisted that only "recognized talent" could come in. John Renbourne apparently was refused because they'd never heard of him. I guess like the other "big time" acts, he had to hire a lawyer to get all the paperwork in place, so it wouldn't happen again.

The current procedure is simple (and costly). Contracts for a bookings, signed way in advance, and various fees need to be payed. Then it's kosher.

Even though I'm familiar with virtually all the Canadian Bands (through the radio show) I've never heard of the Glengarry Bhoys, but they have one entry on the net which indicates to me that they are a rock band with pipes and fiddle. Not my cuppa tea, but I also noticed that one of the members is a Lawyer, so I imagine he'd deal with the paperwork pretty easily.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 01:22 AM

Yes they are a Celtoid Rock band. And they are competant musicians. I listened to them tonight at an absolutely packed house. I sat on an open porch behind them and listened to their monitors and got the band mix. They are quite good. And they are nice and decent folk as well.

My concern isn't whether the band is any good or what paperwork they must file or whether they have infact files anything.

My concern is the ability of a Canadian band to come to the US and because of the disparity of US/Canadian money, under cut a US bands price and take US money back to Canada where it more spending power. Am I the only person who sees this as an unfair advantage in a business sense?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:13 AM

There is talk in the news of dismantling "the" border and concentrating on the other borders. I assume it will happen, but we all know how fast these changes take place. Especially with the trade war over lumber, potatoes, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 06:27 AM

Good point gnu, I wonder why the fair trade agreement doesn't apply here.

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:16 PM

The "Free trade" agreement has done nuthin to help musicians or artists of any kind. It's biggest advantage is to allow Canadian Unionized factories to relocate to Arkansas (or wherever) where safety standards and a hundred other things don't apply. It's sole purpose was to save money, at any cost.

Don, I really don't think "dollar value" is a factor. The vast majority of folk clubs in the States and Canada have a set price (I know this because of my association with the Patons, and my own negotiations) which most performers have no choice but to follow. There are basically three types of travelling "folk" performers: The first are those with a high profile (Garnet Rogers, Tom Paxton, John McCutcheon etc.) the second would be fairly new artists doing a lot of opening acts. The third would be everyone else who tours regularly. A sub-category (which I'm probably in) is artists with a few albums, and a lot of experience who stay MOSTLY on their own turf, but do about 25 road gigs a year. The dollar exchange is ALWAYS taken into consideration, and most US gigs pay about twenty five to thirty percent lower than equivalent Canadian ones. It's similar to folk clubs in the UK. When all legal papers are done (and foreign taxes are paid) it's virtually a saw-off. Virtually all of my touring is done simply to let 'em know I ain't dead yet! Ha Ha! It's never been a money maker as far as Folk coffee houses go...break even is what you aim for. Now bigger "celtoid Rock" gigs, that's a different story...and I don't have much info on those.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:38 PM

kendall... the free trade agreement applies fairly in few trades... even the ones it was invented for. It's a lot of gobbledegook that the big guys cook up to shaft the little guys. As far as Canadian jobs going to Arkansas, I think there are a lot of jobs on both sides of the "longest undefended border" going waaaaay further away.

BTW, did I mention that the Glengarry Bhoys have a lot of fine tunes ?

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: ollaimh
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:41 PM

if you are going to busk in the syayes it is good to say you are going down to play with friends. and have an address in mind. and if you are bringinf tapes and cd's if they find them they can be snotty but usually they let you pay a five dollae adminstration fee as long as ypou sweaqr they are to put on consignment with american merchants.

but they can be dificculy if it pleases them. an advantage for canadians is the natural politeness of canadiamns. american authorites are not used to that and respond well. a lot of american(rightly so) start complaining aboiut their rights which only pisses them off. i've never had trouble except to pay the five dollars, but i've seen the less polite get turned back.

i don't tell them if i have a gig, but what the hell i'm not big enough to find out.

i frnkly don't believe the storty that some muscians were filmed by the border peop[le and charged 40%tax. that has to be apocraphal. i've never heard of such a thing

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 29 Jul 01 - 05:58 PM

Up until very recently, it has always been much easier for Americans to play in Canada than for Canadians to play n the U.S.

These days there's about the same amount of too-much-red tape on both sides of the border.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: InOBU
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:00 AM

WOW!!! What a timely post!!!
Rick YESTERDAY at breakfast on Orleans, off Quebec I said the same thing. I played with Denise, the fiddler from the Bouteen Souriant Friday night, and could not get off the stage, the audience went nuts... there is now some strong interest from some pub owners in bringing my band to Canada for a tour BUT there is a prohibitive tarriff... WAIT A SECOND!!! Didn't we sign a piece of trash treaty that said if I want to sell Mexican built trucks in Toronto through a corp based in New York, that's OK????? No restrictive Tarriffs? As a lawyer going to Canada to look into human rights abuses I was WELCOMED!!!! But at the border when they heard I made my living as a musician I was treated like a criminal!!! My wife and I were pulled over and questioned...
But, I still want to look into a tour of Toronto Montreal and Quebec because the audiences were GREAT (for the benifit of Canadian government folks, I was playing for free this time...)
What timing, eh
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:02 PM

Do you think it might have something to do with talent? If you or your band were better maybe you would not have a problem getting gigs?

I dont think it is fair the way Neil Young plays in arenas that should have Americans playing in them.

Nor do I think it fair when a band like Great Big Sea goes to Denmark or Scotland to take advantage of the economic differences. Think of all the cloggers who might have had jobs if the Canadians had just stayed home!

Close the Border before the make us Sing Bare Naked Ladies songs before the ball game.

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM

Hi Guest,

I am not concerned about talent here. As far as bands go we are apples and oranges. They are Celtic Rock and we are the Clancy Brothers with drums. We work often enough to make us happy. And aside from what you may have misunderstood from my post, I like the Bhoys and I appreciate their talent. My concern isn't whether or not they should be working on any side of the border they wish. My wonder was and still is if the disparity in the two currencies doesn't make it more advantageous business arrangement to work this side of the border and take the US money back home. And if in the process they are limiting the work of local bands. Thats all. I appreciate that they are a very talented group. Much more than competant as I said in a previous post. And they are tireless promoters of the skill they have and the music they play. Their drummer amazes me with what he does. I probably should have never mentioned a name and not engendered hard feelings anywhere. This could very well be The Kitchener Kut-Ups or The Toronto Torpedoes for all I care. The question would still have been valid. If I have offended any one in the Glengarry Bhoys I am sorry. It was never my intent.

Regards

Don "Who always signs his posts" Meixner

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 12:59 PM

its true that until recently there were no restrictions on US performers playing in Canada whereas Canadians had to pay a fee and fill out forms etc. Then, about 5 years ago the rules changed the Canadian authorities decided to do the same and then both sides increased the fee. So I think its about $400 for a p2 visa and it takes at least a month to get it processed. The only real losers are the music fans. My feeling was the same, whatever happened to NAFTA, well it turns out Nafta does not apply to labour only trade. I had a friend whos an auto mechanic and one of his buddies called him when his car broke down (on the US side) when the auto mechanic crossed the border and said he was going to help his buddy out (they said sure but you have to leave you toolbox here) wouldnt want to be taking jobs from Americans.

the $ exchange rate cuts both ways too, the Rogue folk Club in Vancouver has been bringing in wonderful talent over the years but lately because of the visa hassle and the low dollar we dont get the same opportunity to see as many bands as we used to.

case in point, James Kelly and Daithi Sproule were booked to play here last year and were going to do a workshop for fiddle and guitar as well. but about a day before the concert they decided they wanted to be paid in US funds instead of Canadian $ as agreed and when that didnt happen they cancelled the gig.

Subject: Lyrics to "the dam", title may be wrong
From: GUEST,b
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:14 PM

Subject: Lyrics to "the dam", title may be wrong
From: GUEST,bdermody
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:16 PM

The chorus goes,

Goodbye to the river, goodbye to the trees Goodbye to the nightbirds that sing in the breeze they're building a dam, it's too late to cry Brazos de dios, adios goodbye.

i need the verses

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:18 PM

one other point I wanted to make about the $ discrepancy is that often it works out equally anyway. I bought 2 sixpacks in a US store with a Can. $20 and the clerk said and thats $14us (when I put it down) and then she said wow that doesnt go very far does it? but in canada a $20 will get you 2 sixpacks as well. I suspect that in real value the money that what performers get works out roughly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 01:27 PM

But Canada has much better beer so that explanation just won't wash!

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: Jande
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM

Well.... GUEST,petr just said what I was going to say and much more succincly I expect.

I can't attest to the beer question nas I only drink Wollaver's (Organic) IPA, and many of the better quality porters and stouts, often imported from overseas. Most Canadian and american beers tastelike water that someone momentarilly dipped a branch of hops into.. *grin*

I'm visiting the states right now and I am amazed at the low cost of most things (except organically grown produce, that is) But when we sit down and figure the exchange rate we find that it really costs the same here as it would in Canada.

I've heard horror stories about the troubles musicians go through at the borders. I never tell them the details of what I'll be doing once I get to the other side.

No, I don't think that Canadians are putting Americans out of work because they are undercutting Americans and taking home the spoils.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 02:40 PM

OK, I surrender. I'll still come to Toronto in September and buy some Ten Penny and listen to the local music and have a good time of it.

Hope no ones nose is out of joint and next time the Glenngarry Bhoys come here I'll still go listen and have a good time, secure in the notion that my question was answered fairly and honestly by people I have come to know and trust.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:13 PM

actually some of the microbrewed natural ales are excellent on either side of the border as long as you stay away from the huge brewery variety. Ive often used the cost of a beer as a handle on the cost of other things. THe biggest discrepancy was having a 5$ can of beer on a German train going to the Czech republic where you could get a much better beer for 20cents Canadian (the same five will buy you a round)

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 08:31 PM

Don, what's the name of your band?

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 10:06 PM

I see to A) be having trouble posting or B) am being censored I will try again.

Canadian bands taking US jobs? Could it have anything to do with talent?

IF a band fron country C plays in country D is the band displacing workers?

If you have a good band you should not have a hard time getting a gig, and if you dont you can blame it on the weakness of the Canadian dollar. A neat little package. Nick

Subject: RE: BS: Candian Bands and Us Jobs
From: DonMeixner
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 12:13 AM

Burke, the band is The Flyin' Column, been around for 30 years and we work as much as we want to. But we won't turn down more jobs if we get them.

Nick, please read all my postings. I am not expressing blame anywhere. And I'm sure you are not meaning to say that Canadian bands have the corner on talent.

Don