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Is Plastic surgery a career helper?

GUEST,Silicone Sally 02 Aug 01 - 01:14 PM
paddymac 02 Aug 01 - 01:40 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Aug 01 - 01:45 PM
Bill D 02 Aug 01 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Celtic Soul 02 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM
Maryrrf 02 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM
katlaughing 02 Aug 01 - 03:32 PM
Susanne (skw) 02 Aug 01 - 05:35 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Aug 01 - 05:42 PM
Jonah 02 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM
Little Hawk 02 Aug 01 - 06:53 PM
Mark Cohen 03 Aug 01 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 Aug 01 - 04:04 AM
pavane 03 Aug 01 - 06:46 AM
Skipjack K8 03 Aug 01 - 06:57 AM
Grab 03 Aug 01 - 10:01 AM
Kim C 03 Aug 01 - 10:19 AM
RichM 03 Aug 01 - 01:50 PM
katlaughing 03 Aug 01 - 01:55 PM
John Hardly 03 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM
Justa Picker 03 Aug 01 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,999 24 Aug 11 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,999 24 Aug 11 - 11:00 AM
Musket 24 Aug 11 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,"An Elderly Woman" 24 Aug 11 - 08:17 PM
GUEST 25 Aug 11 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 25 Aug 11 - 05:45 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 25 Aug 11 - 06:04 AM
Fred McCormick 25 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM
Will Fly 25 Aug 11 - 08:49 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 25 Aug 11 - 10:25 AM
Morris-ey 25 Aug 11 - 10:52 AM
Genie 25 Aug 11 - 10:04 PM
Doug Chadwick 26 Aug 11 - 02:47 AM
Genie 26 Aug 11 - 12:54 PM
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Subject: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST,Silicone Sally
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 01:14 PM

Your darn right I'm going undercover for this one, but I AM curious. A couple of folksinging ladies of a certain age would appear to have had a fair amount of facial and body reconstruction (don't know about the guys, but these days it's certainly possible)

Any Mudcatters want to admit to, or even discuss availing themselves of modern cosmetic surgery? A friend of mine who is a pretty laid back folkie is going to do some enhancement this fall. She told me she was surprised at the length of the waiting list. My only thoughts are that if it's no longer dangerous, go for it if it makes you happy.

Silicone (not yet) Sally


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: paddymac
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 01:40 PM

There have been a number of studies of the role of appearance in several areas - hiring decisions among them. I think the fair summary is to say that those studies indicate that individuals considered "not pretty" are affirmatively discriminated against, while those considered "pretty" have an easier time and are more often given the "benefit of the doubt." A useful definition of "pretty" is treacherous, but it most commonly seems to be having meristic characters close to the "norm" for the group doing the judging. Thus, what one "group" considers "pretty" may be substantially different than what other groups do. The question is, of course, far more complicated, by sex-linked differences in perception, and other vague or difficult-to-define notions, such as "appropriateness, personality, wealth, etc." If a person considers themself to be "not pretty" and wishes to seek a surgical alteration, they ougt to be free to do that. The problem arises when practitioners become overly concerned by things like profit motives. Well, that's about as far down this hole I dare go. Maybe other 'catters with professional credentials can elaborate further, or correct the observations where the may be in error.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 01:45 PM

Here's a song Vin Garbutt wrote about this kind of thing, after a trip to the States:

Oh! Mother dear, the girls out here own nature's beauty bright,
When she made them oh so diffeent, Mother Nature got it right,
But they fill their mouths with metal as an ornament for man,
And they check their mouths like we would, buying horses.

Oh! What use the sparkling blue eyes of Hitler's Aryan?
What use the perfect teeth of the new all-American?
Oh! The fear of imperfection, if not banished from our hearts,
When we're in pursuit of wisdom, we'll not find it.

(In case anyone reads this as anti-American, here's what Vin wrote about this song: "A look at North American Society gives us a glimpse of what we can expect in Britain within ten years...It's easy to see the step above you, but it's not always easy to see the step you've reached." (And he was writing in 1983. We're well on track to prove him right.)


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 02:26 PM

unless there is a VERY serious problem, I hate seeing this done. If a woman is 54DD and hurts, why sure...but I know 30As who are lovely....yeah, I know, some are far more attuned to 'image' than I am...but that's my 2¢ worth...it makes me sad that society does this to women.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM

I have only 6 words on whether or not plastic surgery and knowing someone inside the industry helps you get jobs...

Tory Spelling Tory Spelling Tory Spelling.

I know she's not a musician, but if you'd like, I can repeat "Bananarama" 6 times just as easily.

I have considered plastic surgery myself, but not as a career booster. Just for my own self. It will probably never happen, but if it does, I'll let you know if I get any more or better gigs ;D


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM

Well, I don't think plastic surgery is a sin. It has flitted through my mind occasionally - a discreet face lift maybe. I think it depends on the individual. After all, what about braces for teeth or dyeing your hair. If you want to enhance yourself and it boosts your ego a little because you feel more attractive - where's the harm? And I think, as Paddymac pointed out, appearance isn't everything but it helps if you are "nice looking" and attractive. Personally I would keep it to a minimum and not alter my appearance drastically, but nothing wrong with a little "nipping and tucking"! I wouldn't consider silicon breast implants, however, because of the possible health risks - I'm not convinced they're safe. First I'd experiment with those new water bras that allow you to adjust your cleavage and actually jiggle like the real thing!


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 03:32 PM

I agree with you, BillD. I hate to see someone so unhappy with themselves just because of societal pressures. I do think it is warranted in the event of some birth defects and alterations from accidents, if the persons involved want it.

katlettingitallhangout


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 05:35 PM

Plastic surgery a career helper? Certainly - for the surgeon!
Having said that, I'm planning plastic surgery for next year, though not as a career booster (nothing to boost there ...) but simply for feeling better and the hope of an old age free of incurable back damage and pain.
It's a very personal decision which nobody else can take for you. However, it must be common knowledge by now that the fact something CAN be done does not mean it's o.k. and without long-term risk. Also, I think it is criminal of surgeons to accept underage and not fully grown girls as patients unless there is a very grave medical reason.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 05:42 PM

Lemme see, I'll start with a smaller nose (turned up and pert would be nice), a bit of liposuction on the old gut, and are they still doing that "male enlargement" thing....ahh to hell with it!

Seriously I'm not sure that ANYONE knows if that stuff is really safe, no matter WHAT the Plastic surgery industry says. I've seen several totally heartbreaking documentaries on the poor women who's bodies and lives were wrecked because of implants. Julia Roberts was just fine before she started messing around with it.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Jonah
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM

Look at Michael Jackson, enough said, I think...

Maryrrf,

Braces for your teeth or dyeing your hair are at the very least reversible. Messing with your face isn't.

Learn to be glad with what you've got.

On many occasions there are things that others might have different points of view, and they may have a reasonable point.

But on this issue, there's no question - Learn to be glad with what you've got

Jonah


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 06:53 PM

Hey, it put Frankenstein on the best seller list...

- LH


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 03:59 AM

Jonah, "Learn to be glad with what you've got" is no doubt a reasonable motto for you to live by, but I think you're on shaky ground when you assume it will work for everyone. Many people would probably agree with kat that cosmetic surgery is "OK" in the case of "birth defects and accidents" -- but where do you draw the lines on the continuum from "deformity" to "disfigurement" to "distasteful" to "dissatisfied"? And who is to say that YOUR response to societal pressure and your own psychic distress by "learning to live with it" is "right", but HIS response by having surgery is "wrong"?

Also, as a member of the oft-maligned medical profession (though not a surgeon), I would like to point out that while there may be unethical and greedy cosmetic surgeons, there are also those who donate time and expertise and equipment and supplies to people in the third world, often making an immense difference in their lives. If you're interested in finding out about, or supporting, this kind of humanitarian work, check out one of the most prominent organizations inthe field, Interplast. (Interestingly, I just found out from their website that they include pediatricians as part of their surgical teams. Hmmmm....)

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 04:04 AM

KittyKat....

Considering what YOU'VE got hanging out

Plastic Surgury is NO DOUBT a fine suggestion for your career advancment.

Who knows....your "operation" might even help ME market the manuscript ideas I have "liberated" from YOUR overwhelming talents.

You get the opperation....I'll try for the Jag by New Year's based on your cosmetic sucess.....it certainly won't hurt the current conditions.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 06:46 AM

A cousin of my wife, (a VERY well known singer), has reported having injections of toxins (derived from botulism) which temporarily paralyse the facial muscles around the eyes, rather than surgery.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 06:57 AM

I've just stumped up well over the odds for four tooth coloured fillings. Pure vanity. And no bookings!

Skipjack


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Grab
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 10:01 AM

"There's beautiful ladies there, never you mind,
All beautiful shapes nature never designed."

And from the Beautiful South:

"Take a good look at these crows-feet, sitting in the prettiest eyes."

Personally, I prefer natural to enhanced. If it's a genuine problem (teeth going in odd directions, for instance) then no worries, even if it is cosmetic rather than medical. But the Zsa Zsa Gabor "mask" is just unpleasant.

On the more bizarre side, check this...

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 10:19 AM

I don't know about career helper... I think people who are talented should be able to stand on their own merits, and many have.

However I do agree that plastic surgery is a personal decision, and if it's something you really feel is necessary, go for it.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: RichM
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 01:50 PM

Too bad there isn't plastic surgery for the soul. Guest above could benefit.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 01:55 PM

Not sure there's even a soul there to operate on, Rich. It's just so silly now, all the power is gone and it can't inflate anymore.:-)


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:42 PM

I don't know about plastic surgery but I do have a few words for some performers I have seen...

Crest whitening strips and dental floss...

...oh yeah..I guess you guys didn't catch the act I saw last night..


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 02:44 PM

Without it, Phyllis Diller would have been minus about 45 minutes of comedy material.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 10:51 AM

If I had a dog that looked like me I would shave its ass and teach it to walk backwards.

A great disappointment to me was a year's worth of some beach show that was on TV (many years ago). There was a gal on the show who was beautiful--pretty face, small busted. I was moving north and asked a friend to tape the intro to the show for me as many times as he could and send me the VHS. He did. In the course of that year the character who was called Summer or Sommer on the show went from the beautiful gal she was to a big-busted gal. Made me wonder why she agreed to the procedures just to get bigger tits. To this day I wonder about that.

The song that introduced the show was awesome (imo). Still one of my favourite songs. The piano player rocks, it's well-written and sung well. It's rock so be forewarned.

Almost forgot--it's Youtube and CRANK the volume.

Here it is.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:00 AM

'Roberta "Summer" Quinn is a fictional character from the TV series Baywatch from seasons 3-4. She was played by Nicole Eggert from 1992 to 1994, and in the 2003 reunion movie Baywatch: Hawaiian Wedding.'

From Wiki.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 11:30 AM

A surgical solution to a physiological condition.

In terms of beauty enhancement anyway..

Plastic surgery is used extensively in oncological breast reconstruction, hare lip, airway clearance, post burns reconstruction, eye obstruction, wound closure etc etc.

Mind you, I'm not being judgemental here. If a beauty treatment raises your self esteem and helps prevent depression, it may be a smart move for both doctor and patient. Sadly, lots of it addresses my first point.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST,"An Elderly Woman"
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 08:17 PM

(I'm also concealing my real identity because I wan't my comments and questions to contribute to the general discsussion rather than centering on me personally.)

I'm confining my comments to the original question, about cosmetic surgery as a career move (not to enhance one's self-esteem). (And as my "alias" is meant to suggest, I do cringe when I hear the media routinely refer to people in their 60s as "elderly.)


I think for most singers/musicians who are not cabaret performers or otherwise expected to be glamourous, being "beautiful" isn't all that important (especially for men), but I do think that ageism is real and serious where it comes to being hired.   I can't imagine most "folkies" thinking that a boob job would help their careers, but a face lift or eye lift or neck lift very well might, if they're beyond "a certain age."

I have noticed this in my own experience with the people who hire (or choose not to hire) me as well as with some of my audiences, even though over 90% of those for whom I do music are at least 10 years older than I am. (The activity directors and marketing directors who do the hiring, though, are often younger, many of them in their 20s or 30s.) Age discrimination is, of course, hard to prove in a court of law, but I noticed a distinct drop-off in both interest in hiring me and in positive response to my music programs coincidental with the time, less than 5 years ago, when I started LOOKING like late sixties instead of easily passing for 10 years younger.    In my case, it's not about "beauty," except to the extent that "turkey neck" and "jowls" are basically never considered "attractive" on a woman (whereas some people with "crow's feet" and "laugh lines" and even drooping eyelids, etc., still look very attractive—just "older"). Quite frankly, I think that if I were less "pretty" but looked 10 to 15 years YOUNGER, it would be quite beneficial to my (very small-time) "career."    Maybe it's because, since my main audiences are "elderly," they relate best to entertainers who are close to their age cohort but not "fellow geezers"—or, at least, if the entertainers are old, they like to be reminded that "old" people can still be attractive.   Maybe it's because very young administrators, activity directors, etc., think of people in their 60s and 70s as "over the hill."

One thing I'm sure of, though, is that plastic surgery that leaves you looking as freakish as WAY too many "celebrities" is probably NOT going to make things better.   Even if I could afford it (which I can't) and were not afraid of the risks of surgery (which I am), my goal would not really be to look a lot younger OR to look "prettier" than I used to be.    It would be to "fix" the age-related changes (e.g., droopy jowls) or injury-related changes (e.g, chipped teeth) that make me look BOTH "old" and "ugly."   

Jessica Tandy (who may have had lots of plastic surgery, for all I know) looked beautiful to me even when she was in her 90s and looked like it. But Kenny Rogers, Burt Reynolds, and a lot of other "celebrities" look like "bad plastic surgery" to me— not younger, just deformed.   

I still have a lot of questions, about the likely results (both esthetic and physical/physiological) of things like a laser skin treatments, neck lift or injections of one's own body fat into upper lips, facial creases, etc., as well as costs. And I'm also wondering how easy it is to claim the costs of such procedures as business expenses if you are a professional performer in a field where "beauty" is never an explicit job requirement.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 05:34 AM

Plastic surgery is not just about appearance. I couldn't play any wind instrument if I hadn't had a long series of operations to (mostly) fix a cleft lip and palate.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 05:45 AM

That was me (at Whitby).


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:04 AM

Well, to hell with The Career, I'm gonna need it soon for a different reason!

And *that* is to deal with the everincreasingcreases which furrilyfurrow themselves into my brow, due to the fearsomefrustration of also knowing some of the BEST music on the planet, but...being UNABLE to direct folks to Youtube to hear it, for the MakeroftheMusic won't step out of the Darkness and into the Light......

I'm off for my first Botox Bath of the day now...that might help too...but it's gonna take one helluva lot of Botox to deal with these Increasing Creases....

And....MY MakeroftheMusic blasts that Baywatch song off the Planet!

;0)


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

I understand Jack Campin's comment about needing surgery for cleft pallates and stuff. But if you need cosmetic surgery just to get the song across, there has to be something wrong with the song or the way you're performing it, or both.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 08:49 AM

Well, I'm basically a 44A - do you think a couple of breast implants would get me more gigs?

And would the beard have to come off?


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:25 AM

They were talking, this morning, on BBC Radio Devon, of a woman in America who's just had breast implants Will..and er...she's 85 years old...

Ewwwwwww! :0)

I think you should keep the beard with the implants..Cool!


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:52 AM

I am all for the younger looking woman. In fact a shapely body is far more important than talent imvho...


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Genie
Date: 25 Aug 11 - 10:04 PM

LOL, Will Fly!

[["if you need cosmetic surgery just to get the song across, there has to be something wrong with the song or the way you're performing it, or both."]]
That's assuming you got hired in the first place. And it depends a lot on who your audiences are.

Granted, Broadway musicals may have slightly different criteria from most folk venues, but I still think there's a lot of truth behind
this song.


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 02:47 AM

To improve their careers in folk singing, perhaps some of the ladies could consider hair transplants so that they would have proper folkie beards.

DC


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Subject: RE: Is Plastic surgery a career helper?
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 11 - 12:54 PM

Then again, if you sound like Lead Belly, would it really enhance your career to look like Emmylou Harris?


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