BS: What is this stuff - Karma?

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:32 PM

Loved Carmen Miranda! But I digress.

Karma is, like . . ., man. . .(lengthy inhalation, cough cough, heavy exhalation, slight hunger pains), like . . . ya reap what ya sow, man, . . .like . . .wow, man, it's like . . .ya leave unresolved desires in this life, man, and, like, wow man, in the next life ya gotta like resolve that stuff, man. It's like, . . .kinda like a little of that do unto others stuff, man . . . hey man, I think the room's spinning . . .

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:46 PM

Amos-- I agree that one should seek the path of Right Action. I don't agree, however, that that guarantees in any way, shape or form that one will "have a nice day." (That's no reason to give up, though).

CC

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Peg
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 11:06 PM

Pagans and witches and wiccans (oh my) follow what they call the Wiccan (or Witches') Rede, or the Threefold Law. Basically anything youdo comes back to you threefold; whether good or bad. It is meant to make newbies think twice about working manipulative magic on another person. Obviously it is simply a version of the good old Golden Rule.

We should try to do good in the world as often as we can. Not for its reward, but because it is right to do so. Anything less makes us selfish, or sociopathic.

peg

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:26 PM

Even a crap-shoot trembles in the hand of the shooter. Seeking right actyion is a higher motive than basing action on some ill-defined emotional stance; but it is possible that love for others and for God in Christian vocabulary is an equivalent fact to the highest and most enlightened sense of Right Action in the mind of the Buddhist. The problem is that the terms never get defined very well and endless quibbles ensue. Which is a cosmic waste of Time. Fortunately, time is not in short supply yet.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:17 PM

As a good Augustinian, let me say that life is a crap-shoot. The explanation within Christian theology is that if the good were always rewarded and evil punished in this world, people would do good for the reward (wrong motive) not because of their love for their fellow creatures or for God (right motive). If you want an Augustinian view divorced from Christianity, that's easy: nobody's keeping score, so don't think yourself into a funk by trying to figure out what you did wrong. All you did wrong is to think you did something wrong. Get over it.

I'm too lazy to search the whole thread, so if somebody already said, "My karma ran over your dogma," then disregard this paragraph, which is not Augustinian, just old.

CC

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:32 PM

Charming!! GB

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: GUEST,Kjell
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:24 AM

I strongly believe that you get whats coming to you, so watch out Patrish.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:43 PM

The kind of people you describe, Wolfgang, must not be very intelligent. If karma were to operate in the way that the person you were responding to in your first post described, the people who currently are committing brutal acts against others will eventually experience those things themselves. That might be a good thing to point out to them if you ever get into a discussion with them. You don't have to believe in karma to see the logic in that argument.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:21 PM

My gawd what a bunch of crap. Thanks for the link Wolfgang. It's amazing how far off the deep end some people manage to go.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:00 PM

God, what a flake!! It is one thing to espouse a new age based on more universal appreciation of spirituality, but it is another to try and replace one set of useless, arbitrary, undemonstrable, non-germane, non-applicable cosmologies with another of the same qualities!!! What a waste of breath!! Bailey's ideas and her rebutters are equally silly in my terribly humble opinion! :>) They remind me of 3rd graders arguing about "which Pokemon is cooler", or whether Big Bird has a penis. Oy!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 10:25 AM

A critique of some ideas of Alice Bailey just to show that misuse of the concept of karma isn't restricted to Germany.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 09:54 AM

As Wolfgang wisely points out, karma is a "concept" that can be wildly abused. Idiocy is beyond the reach of language, generally -- those who are bent on distortion don't try to understand. Rape is a crime committed by one participant against another. It is a crime no matter how it gets rationalized.

I think that the term "karma" can also be abused by those who want to use it as a simplistic accounting method because they do not care to face the complex and subtle nature of the mechanism at work. Much easier to slap a half-understood datum up there and call it "karma".

The interactions between individuals, especially in dramatic stories like GUEST's alcoholic victim/criminal acquaintance, are case studies of the karmic principle working in complex interactions.

But nothing about the use of karma excuses the individual from the responsibility of choosing to be where he is, connected with those to whom he is connected, and reaping the consequences of "bad" decisions. A person who is deliberately uninformed or unwilling to learn about financial schemes may find themselves ripped off by a series of Ponzi promoters or other scam artists. An intelligent person will learn from experience how to discriminate, and learn to suspend the hunger for fantasy when dealing with reality. If he does not, it is his "karma" to be victimized again. Some lessons come more slowly to some learners.

The reason karma works its mysterious ways is not some external "force in the universe". It is a reflection of our own natures and the fact that we often shut out whole areas that we are aware of -- intuitively or however -- when taking actions of an ordinary sort. This involves reduction of responsibility, just like a reduction gear train or a step-down transformer cuts down on delivered force. But the things we shut out, in doing so, don't go away, any more than the passages of a book go away when you put it on the shelf for a while; they hang around reasserting the knowledge until they are faced up to .

We end up teaching ourselves lessons, quickly or slowly, and growing; or, we end up doing a series of ever-dwindling retreats and denials until we end up dead in an alley like GUEST's mechanic.

'Nuff said?

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:37 AM

Pleasure and pain come from your own former actions (karma)

When I read sentences like this (or similar ones in the above postings), of course taken out of context, I am always reminded of the German right-wing esoteric scene and why they prey upon a concept like Karma. They explain to themselves why the holocaust was something the jews had to endure due to their misdeeds in former lifes and that the shoa was only 'karmic compensation' and has helped their 'spiritual growth' (both citations Trutz Hardo alias Tom Hockemeyer).

The cancer from which the popular Jewish-German showmaster Hans Rosenthal died, was the price paid for being a thief and murderer in a former life (Rainer Holbe). The victims of rape also will be glad to read in that fringe literature that they have to blame themselves for what they did in former lives (http://esoleben.exit.mytoday.de/html/body_karma1.html, in German). The British may remember Glenn Hoddle and his ideas about handicapped people.

Sorry for coming late, but I think any discussion about karma is not complete without mentioning how easily this concept can be (and is) abused by the right-wing political scene.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:37 AM

A small boy looked out the window and saw two dogs acting like dogs. He called his mother and said "Look at that" She was embarassed and said "The one on top has a broken leg, and the one on the bottom is hauling him to the vet."
Little boy says "Aint that life? you try to help someone, and they stick it up your ass every time."

No good deed ever went unpunished. (Oscar Wilde)

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:14 AM

I have been in the situation where I have helped someone and they have rewarded me by doing something horrible to me. I don't believe in revenge, I think its a bitter reaction. But I must admit there have been times when I have found I felt quite violent. I am becoming more discerning in whom I chose to mix with(hello everyone at the Jug!)and I think this has been the lesson for me. (Does what I have said make sense? or am I rambling again)
Patrish xx

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 10:47 PM

from a book on "Murphy's Law"

"Whatever hits the fan is not distributed evenly"

all you can choose to do is try to move out of the range of some fans....

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 10:17 PM

I've never really believed in any of this and yet I've seen what surely must be the result. Does that mean that this force acts as an ever present defender of those who walk in the light, punishing those who would ignore it's power? Events certainly seem ramdom but do our actions coupled with these random occurances eventually create ripples which cannot be reversed. Do we indeed do create that which we face.

I saved the life of a man once. He was not a good person, for offenses too numerous he was habitually in and out of jail. I was awakened by the sound of an odd coughing late one night in the funky basement apartment I lived in. It was a very persistant sound that didn't pause and it sounded as if it was coming from another apartment. I got up to investigate and found smoke coming from the apartment above mine on the ground floor of the building. I knocked and then pounded trying to get the guy who lived there to open his door. Unable to rouse him, I then awakened the rest of the folks who lived there. Thinking perhaps this smoke or fire could spread. It was an old building with no fire protection in place so I called the FD. The building manager, an old retired merchant marine, was the last to rise, just after the fire department arrived. I don't know if it was his age or if there was some other reason that the manager was so difficult to wake. I saw as the manager opened the door to the room with his pass key. It was completely engulfed in a thick blanket of smoke. Suddenly from within the dense grey cloud my neighbor exited coughing and coughing. I think he would have died of smoke inhalation had I not acted.

My actions, in response to what I heard that evening, were random and accidental. I could just as easily have rolled over, being the lover of blissful sleep that I am, and drifted back into slumbers and not responded. Later I asked for this man's help with some mechanical problems my car was having. He said he was a mechanic and since I knew little about such. To make a long story longer, he ended up stripping and stealing everything from my car, leaving only the bare frame. I remember catching up with him in a bar shortly after I found my car stripped. I was stunned by his lack of remorse. Drunk, his only response was to complain to me that everyone seemed to be denying him his right to have fun. Not long after I heard he was shot and killed by someone as he attempted to enter their home in the middle of the night. It seems, while he was in jail, his old girlfriend had moved out of the place and an old gent with a big gun had moved in and shot him fearing he was a burgler or?

Now, was this just a case of my neighbor's Karmic ripples finally catching up with him? Did he just reap what he chose to sow?

I could go on with other similar examples of negative events visiting those whose actions were such. It's made me think twice about following those paths.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 03:29 PM

Karma is an incredibly powerful construction. Although it is attributed to eastern "mystical" traditions, it fills a huge gap in the rationalist west's attempts to make sense of the universe. It provides a possible rational explanation for the apparently random way that the universe functions. As long as the Karma police are at work, people are not really rewarded for bad deeds (as they sometimes appear to be) or unfairly burdened with bad luck in spite of their good deeds and cheerful nature. Karma is the unknowable "cause" behind the inscrutable "effect" that everyone eventually encounters.

Karma also returns some modicum of control to the individual for what occurs in his/her life. As long as there is Karma, what you do does indeed matter. Your actions will have specific effects; you will always benefit from doing good and pay for doing bad – eventually. Somehow, it makes even the worst breaks bearable to think that we had some hand in bringing them about. As long as there is Karma, we are not helpless pawns in some unfathomable game.

Unfortunately, just because something serves a beneficial purpose doesn't mean it's true. The only truth we humans have is a rather uncomfortable one: no matter how hard we try, our puny little, poorly functioning brains are nowhere near the tool that is needed to figure out what's really going on in our universe.

Don't know if this helps at all Patrish. I hope it makes some sense to someone other than myself. Maybe if Pascal would have been born in India his famous Wager would have been made about Karma rather than God. I think it applies as easily.

Thanks for the question; have a wonderful time staring at the roof of the world.

Bart

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 11:32 AM

Hell, GUEST, I don't even know who "they" is!! But I do know what Aesop, the Greek fabulist, said about those who snipe from the safety of an unreachable location.

The Kid and the Wolf

A Kid standing on the roof of a house, out of harm's way, saw a Wolf passing by and immediately began to taunt and revile him. The Wolf, looking up, said, "Sirrah! I hear thee: yet it is not thou who mockest me, but the roof on which thou art standing."

Time and place often give the advantage to the weak over the strong.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 10:15 AM

Thanks, Patrish. If I can answer any questions for you, please send me a PM.

bobbi, great story. I missed it the cross-posting.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:14 AM

Many thanks everyone. I particularly like the AMORC site - thanks Kat.
Patrish xx

off to Nepal to find myself now........;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 06:55 AM

Good story bobbi, remindes me of Archie Campbell and one of his routines.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:41 AM

Mag, it's okay. We don't have to agree nor apologise for that.

I don't really believe everything is just the way it's supposed to be; I believe that we constantly are reaching for that point.

I do believe we choose a reincarnation with the potential to teach us what we need to learn; but whether we learn it, this time around or not, is totally dependent upon our freewill.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: bobbi
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:39 AM

A Fable:   An old man
There is an ancient Chinese tale about an old man whose manner of looking at life was entirely different from that of others in the village. We could all learn something from his philosophy. It seems this old man had only one horse, and one day it ran away. His neighbors came and commiserated with him, telling him how sorry they were for the misfortune that had befallen him. His answer surprised them. 'But how do you know it's bad? he asked.

A few days later his horse came back, and with it were two wild horses. Now the old man had three horses. This time, the neighbors congratulated him upon his good fortune. 'But how do you know it's good?' he replied.
The next day , while attempting to break in one of the wild horses, his son fell off and broke his leg. Once again, the neighbors came, this time to console the old man for the bad luck that had befallen his son. 'But how do you know it's bad? he questioned.
By this time, the neighbors decided his mind was addled and didn't want to have any more to do with him. However, the next day a warlord came through the village and took all the able-bodied young men off to war. But not the old man's son, because he was not able-bodied!

We would all lead much more serene lives if we were not so quick to pass judgment on events as they occur. Even that which you resent the most, and which still causes a negative reaction when it comes to mind, may have played a positive part in your life. b

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: bobbi
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:21 AM

I loved her!! Karma Miranda.. used to dance around with bananas on her head! I think she's dead Honey... Don't blame her!

b

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: MAG
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:10 AM

Whenever this discussion comes up, I go dig out my college paperback copy of *Candide,* a book I did not appreciate back then. Voltaire heaps ridicule on the idea that everything is just the way it spoze to be. (sorry, Kat.)

Half of experience is what happens to you; the other half is how you deal with it.

I bridled in my bleakest moments when this blandishment was offered to me as comfort.

Came very close to decking such an idiot at my sister's funeral ...

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 11:25 PM

You know what they say about people who laugh loudly at their own jokes ;)

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:42 PM

's OK. We don't believe in anonymous powers of disbelief, either! LOL!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 08:38 PM

Actually, I'd like to qualify my earlier (08 Aug 1:39PM) message. I don't actually believe in God/gods/goddesses.

But then, I don't believe in Peter T. either.

(WhatI really am is an agnostic about the fairies.)

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 07:53 PM

Right on jaze. I too would like to know what you think Peter.(and why)

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: jaze
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 07:02 PM

I think Kendall said it in a nutshell. When we've learned our lessons-mainly Love-to love God and man unconditionally, we're ready to become one with the Creator. I think the theory of Karma makes God seem just and fair. He gave you free will, you can take as long as you want but eventually we'll all get there. Better than going to hell after one lifetime of imperfection.Ever notice how some people's lives seem to flow smooth and peaceful? They're a little further along-follow their lead.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 06:09 PM

Oh, Wise Peter T! Tell us more!! Why is Mr Campbell a menace?

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 05:55 PM

Joseph Campbell said some stupid things in his time, and the above ranks among the stupidest. The man is a public menace.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 05:43 PM

Picker: Ripping what you sew is for amateur tailors. Them as is stuck with karma gotta reap what they sow! :>)

I think karma, if it has a real definition is in fact an attribute of life force itself, the elan vital which more than any picture or particle is the substance of consciousness and being in the world. Those who try to project it in the universe as a built-in program of the "big machine", like those who try so hard to find outer sources for inner being, are simply uncomfortable in their own beings, whether what they elect to blame is black virgins or pink-skinned octogenarians with big biceps and wings. It just doesn't work that way.

Thus Karma is not so much what you make it as how you go about being in the universe.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 05:18 PM

A very over-simplified explanation is "you reap what you sew".

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 05:02 PM

Oh, durn it, GUEST, you mean I gotta choose?

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:39 PM

Kendall,

Does old soul mean you are just a slow learner?

JUST KIDDING! I heard that one from a comedian.

A gentle suggestion to original querant: try the Bill Moyers/Joseph Campbell tapes called "Power of Myth"--this has been replayed this week on a local PBS station, and I'd forgotten how insightful it all was.

Campbell speaks, as does Kendall, the "east of the Suez" religions and mythological world views being different from our Western world views in one very important way: the eastern religious theologies view gods and goddesses as channels for life energy of the universe working through us. West of the suez religious theologies look to God/the gods as the source of the life energy of the universe.

The result of those two differences make for very different ideologies and beliefs.

But no one orientation (ie east or west) is better than the others. The mystery of virgin births and black madonnas is every bit as insightful as Kali.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:16 PM

The other thing I want to know is, what does it mean when you try really hard to forget about something, or someone, and every time you turn around, something reminds you of it/them? What's that all about?

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 01:04 PM

Thats alright Kim, I dont think anyone knows it all. Thats why we are still here. I've been accused of being a very old soul, and it feels like it to me too. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this more. the forum is not the best place for this.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Kim C
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:52 PM

Hmmmmm.

I have wondered about all this myself.

Still don't understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:51 PM

Kendall, I couldn't have summed up my own feelings any better. Thank you very much.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: kendall
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:46 PM

I'm the bad thing that happens to good people.

I believe we are here to learn and to teach. When we have learned all we must know to become one with the creator, we need not re-incarnate again.

Now, if you dont believe in re-incarnation, it may be due to the fact that the Emperor Consantine and the Council of Nicea threw out all references to re-incarnation when the bible was being put together.

To me, Karma is baggage from past lives, lessons we did not learn.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:14 PM

I always liked the thought that when bad things happen to you, your past virtuous actions have prevented these bad things from being worse ones. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 12:09 PM

A few links: Happiness, Karma and Mind by HH Dalai Lama

Nondual Perspectives and Karma really interesting discussion.

AMORC in UK You might be interested in looking into the teachings. I've been a member for over 20 years and have learned a lot about balance in my life, as well as karma, etc.

some interesting words about Karma although I do not totally agree with what is being said.

H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama on Karma:

Pleasure and pain come from your own former actions (karma). Thus, it is easy to explain karma in one short sentence: If you act well, things will be good, and if you act badly, things will be bad. Karma means actions. From the viewpoint of how actions are done, there are physical, verbal, and mental actions. From the viewpoint of their effects, actions are either virtuous, non-virtuous, or neutral. In terms of time, there are two types - actions of intention which occur while thinking to do something and the intended actions which are the expressions of those mental motivations in physical or verbal action.

For instance, based on a motive, I am now speaking and thereby accumulating a verbal action of karma. With gestures of my hands, I am also accumulating physical karma. Whether these actions become good or bad is mainly based on my motivation. If I speak from a good motivation out of sincerity, respect, and love for others, my actions are good, virtuous. If I act from a motivation of pride, hatred, criticism, and so forth, then my verbal and physical actions become non-virtuous.

Karmas, therefore, are being made all the time. When one speaks with a good motivation, a friendly atmosphere is created as an immediate result; also, the action makes an imprint on the mind, inducing pleasure in the future. With a bad motivation, a hostile atmosphere is created immediately, and pain is induced for the speaker in the future.

Buddha's teaching is that you are your own master; everything depends on yourself. This means that pleasure and pain arise from virtuous and non-virtuous actions which come not from outside but from within yourself. This theory is very useful in daily life, for once you believe in the relationship between actions and their effects, whether there is an external policeman or not, you will always be alert and examine yourself. For example, if there were some money or a precious jewel here and no one was around, you could take it easily; however, if you believe in this doctrine, since the whole responsibility for your own future rests on yourself, you will not.

With respect to the effects of actions, many different types are explained. One type is called "effects which are fruitions". For instance, if someone, due to a non-virtuous action, is born in a bad transmigration as an animal, that rebirth is an effect which is a fruition in another life. Another type is called an "effect experientially similar to its cause"; for instance, if after being reborn in a bad transmigration due to an act of murder you were subsequently reborn as a human, you would have a short life, - the effect, a short life being similar in terms of experience to the cause, cutting short someone else's life. Another type is called "effect functionally similar to its cause"; an example would be naturally to have tendencies toward the same non-virtuous action, such as murder.

Examples for all of these can similarly be applied to virtuous actions. Also, there are actions the effects of which are shared - many beings having similarly done similar types of actions and thereby undergoing effects in common, such as enjoying a certain physical environment together.

The important point is that such presentations of Buddhist theories about actions can make a positive contribution to human society. It is my hope that whether religious or not, we will study each other's systems to gather helpful ideas and techniques for the betterment of humankind.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 11:49 AM

There are always little threads of our own create to be found behind the scenes when we are up to our ears in "undesireable" situations. Sometimes it is a decision just to not look at what is happening, leaving it up to entropy; sometimes it is ancient decisions to make amends or to attack certain kinds of people or some such. Typically,, these threads of self-decided decisions are often obscured in the noise of a confusion or upset and this makes them a bit difficult to revisit, so they carry forward uninspected.

From this perspective, all karma really is is the sum total of your own creations visiting you. The only time this gets really hard is when you misidentify your role in it and take on the position of the innocent chip on the river being swept along by events totally outside your control. That role, however tempting, is the path to misery.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: jeffp
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 11:38 AM

A man I once worked with told me that there are two departments that order our lives - the Fairy Godmother department and the Practical Joker department - and they switch off at random intervals. Right or wrong, it's a fun way to look at it and it keeps me from getting too down.

I hope balance is restored in your life soon.

jeffp

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 11:11 AM

To amend/eloborate further on what I stated earlier, I don't believe in predestination , but , I also don't believe in man as the master of his own fate. I think life is like a poker game, even the best player will be dealt hands that can't win and the worst will be dealt hands that are bound to win.I don't believe it is all random chance, I think their is some intent in the deck.The best players are bound to find more ways to come out ahead or at least break even despite the odds, but, they do not control the hand they are dealt and the reasons as to why some deals goes down the way they do, for better or worse, are as difficult to view as trying to see the mountain while lying face down on top of it.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: LR Mole
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:54 AM

Well, today always affects tomorrow.Can't help that. Therefore it's reasonable to assume yesterday influences today. The flaw, for me, is those folks who think, "Aha! I can win in the future if I'm good in the present." It's all bigger than that. Chance is inevitable, and the only emperor is the emperor of ice cream.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:46 AM

The victim thing is probably baggage I need to discard. I just received a PM and this talked about allowing yourself to be a victim.
Thank you for you thoughtful posts - this is something I will read through several times.
I would also be interested in any sites that deal with Karma or getting rid of baggage. I know how to do a search myself but am interested in finding quality and if any of you already know of some sites it would save me time.
You know I am not a miserable bugger who goes around with a sad face, I'm generally quite a happy, giggly sort of person
Thanks again
Patrish xx

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:41 AM

What I believe, which is not what you asked about, is that, a la Moricia, shit happens. Sometimes a lot of shit happens in a short period of time. I just keep plugging along until I get through the shit.

I also get very frustrated with things that happen TO me, because it often seems like I can't do anything about them. If I take problems apart and deal with the little parts of them, whether it's making a phone call or planning what I'm going to do for just today, it helps a lot. I don't believe there's any situation I CAN'T do something about. It just comes down to finding out what I have the power to affect, and what I don't. Frankly, it sometimes comes down to just deciding I don't care to feel like a victim. Sometimes, the only problem is my own attitude about something I can't change.

I don't believe in karma if it's a way of telling me to simply ride the winds of fate. If it's telling me "Here's a problem. How you deal with it, what you do about it, will contribute a bit to how your future will be," then it makes a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Fortunato
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:29 AM

Patrish,

IMHOP

Karma is rather like the placement of dominos in lines on end and the cause and effect interaction that results. Some dominos you may place, or affect, to some extent, the direction in which they fall. Most domino's placement and fall are beyond your ability to affect.

Therefore, act impeccably.

"When you have eaten, wash your bowl".

And when, inevitably, the dominos fall in a way you perceive to be negative, remember that one thing you can always affect is your response to events. That is, YOU CHOOSE how you think, feel, and behave in response to stimuli.

Do not expect divine intervention (positive or negative). Rather, perceive the on-going divine interaction.

Cheers, Fortunato.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Morticia
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:13 AM

My karma just ran over your dogma....sorry, Patrish, couldn't resist.You know I am not out the other side yet of the worst year of my life, but I don't believe that something I did in this or any lifetime is responsible for that, I think shit happens....and sometimes it happens to good people who don't deserve it....but it still happens.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:03 AM

There are different versions of karma, depending on your taste or religion. The standard theory is that it originated as a term used in public rituals prior to the advent of what could be called early Hinduism (roughly 1000 B.C.). Assume for the moment that public rituals mimic the structure of the universe (that is why they are held in sacred spaces, are oriented the way they are, etc.) in part in order to pay homage to the universe, but also with the idea that you might be able to move the universe around a bit through making a ritual pattern on earth that reflects a larger cosmic pattern. That pattern is sometimes called rta, or dharma. If you make a mistake during the ritual (like trip over your robes), that was considered to be karma, like a little piece of wrongness, or pollution, affecting the ritual. Now fast forward about 300 years. In the emerging cities of the Indian subcontinent, those large scale public rituals (tribal, involving animal sacrifice, etc.) begin to give way to private rituals and the idea of the individual. The way for an individual to do right is to follow their dharma (svadharma), and when they do things wrong, that do not adhere to the dharma, they create personal karma.

So, in early Hinduism, personal karma is a mechanical force, something that happens when you physically do something wrong. When Buddhism and Jainism and revised Hinduism come along, they emphasize not physical action, but intention. If you did not intend to kill that person, that it happened by accident, then you don't accrue karma. There are long and involved legal and religious disputes (as here, cf. no-fault insurance) about how much intention there has to be, if you generate karma just by being a normal unenlightened human being, etc.

The most important thing is that in contemporary Eastern thought, karma is not mechanistic. It should also be said that some religions, like Buddhism, are very sceptical about karma, for complicated reasons. You don't need to believe in karma or rebirth to be a Buddhist. You need it for some others.

Hope that helps.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 10:00 AM

I think it is probably that life is too big a picture to get in focus. Something rotten could have happened 10 years ago that leads to you standing in the right place next week or simply left you not standing in the worst possible place last week. I think it is also trail by fire, there are lessons that have to be learned the hard way. I think some of it is karmic retribution. I think there is a course plan designed specifically for you this time around.
I had a conversation just last week on this subject. I was wondering why I have been wrongly accused, even framed, an inordinate amount of times in this life.I know I sound like the only innocent guy in cell block A, but, really it is something that has followed me and it is something that has REALLY bothered me. Damned if I know why. I am pretty sure it has something to do with Faith and the lion's den. - Daniel

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 09:37 AM

Thanks G2S, You are probably right, I have been priviledged to receive support from some excellent friends. But to those who beleive in Karma I still pose the original question
Patrish xx

Subject: RE: BS: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Goody2Shz
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 09:20 AM

Patrish,

I'm one of those people who believe everything happens for the best, and that there is a reason for it. This simple belief has enabled me to get through some pretty tough times.

I can't tell you how many times I would be in a situation that was good fortune -- and then I would realize...had not that other crappy thing happened, I wouldn't be here now enjoying this wonderful thing.

That didn't answer your question. Sorry.

Subject: What is this stuff - Karma?
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 09:17 AM

I was just wondering about Karma, I know that if you do something bad then something bad happens to you, and if you do something good and so on.
But it gets you thinking that when bad stuff happens that you are in some way responsible for it. I have had a bit of a shi** year. Why?
A bit green, a bit of a mug maybe but not a bad person, I just wonder if anyone can offer an explaination.
love
Patrish xxx

PS When things look dark, hold your head up high so it can rain up your nose!