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I can't believe it was so easy

ddw 08 Aug 01 - 11:39 PM
katlaughing 08 Aug 01 - 11:55 PM
rangeroger 09 Aug 01 - 12:15 AM
bobbi 09 Aug 01 - 12:44 AM
Ebbie 09 Aug 01 - 01:46 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 09 Aug 01 - 02:29 AM
Steve Parkes 09 Aug 01 - 03:23 AM
nutty 09 Aug 01 - 04:37 AM
alison 09 Aug 01 - 05:21 AM
Kjell 09 Aug 01 - 05:32 AM
Banjer 09 Aug 01 - 06:26 AM
kendall 09 Aug 01 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,Sergio Alguim 09 Aug 01 - 07:37 AM
Murray MacLeod 09 Aug 01 - 07:45 AM
jeffp 09 Aug 01 - 08:09 AM
DancingMom 09 Aug 01 - 08:25 AM
paddymac 09 Aug 01 - 09:04 AM
Noreen 09 Aug 01 - 09:35 AM
Rowana (at work) 09 Aug 01 - 09:54 AM
Walking Eagle 09 Aug 01 - 11:05 AM
Grab 09 Aug 01 - 11:30 AM
Clinton Hammond 09 Aug 01 - 11:35 AM
Ebbie 09 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM
ScottyG 09 Aug 01 - 12:27 PM
Kim C 09 Aug 01 - 12:42 PM
ard mhacha 09 Aug 01 - 12:56 PM
Cobble 09 Aug 01 - 01:14 PM
gnu 09 Aug 01 - 01:24 PM
Peg 09 Aug 01 - 01:30 PM
Don Firth 09 Aug 01 - 01:33 PM
Jim Krause 09 Aug 01 - 01:36 PM
Kim C 09 Aug 01 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Sheila 09 Aug 01 - 02:01 PM
GUEST 09 Aug 01 - 02:08 PM
Bernard 09 Aug 01 - 02:12 PM
Clinton Hammond 09 Aug 01 - 02:37 PM
okthen 09 Aug 01 - 02:40 PM
Cappuccino 09 Aug 01 - 02:45 PM
vindelis 09 Aug 01 - 03:00 PM
Jenny the T 09 Aug 01 - 05:06 PM
ddw 10 Aug 01 - 12:41 AM
ddw 10 Aug 01 - 12:46 AM
Sorcha 10 Aug 01 - 02:46 AM
DancingMom 10 Aug 01 - 12:14 PM
kendall 10 Aug 01 - 12:44 PM
Clinton Hammond 10 Aug 01 - 01:19 PM
UB Ed 10 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM
Maryrrf 10 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM
smallpiper 10 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM
kendall 10 Aug 01 - 03:48 PM
UB Ed 10 Aug 01 - 03:50 PM
Mr Red 11 Aug 01 - 08:10 AM
Dorrie 11 Aug 01 - 03:05 PM
ddw 12 Aug 01 - 04:13 PM
kendall 12 Aug 01 - 06:45 PM
Gypsy 12 Aug 01 - 10:08 PM
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Subject: I can't believe it was so easy
From: ddw
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 11:39 PM

I've quit smoking. After 48 years of doing it, sometimes as heavily as three packs a day, I quit cold turkey 15 days ago and know for certain I'll never start again.

For all of you fighting it, keep on — and if you want some help, PM me and I'll put you onto what helped me.

And for those who doubt — no, I'm not selling anything. Just being happy and wanting to share it.....

david


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Aug 01 - 11:55 PM

Congratulations!!! Wonderful news!!

kat


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: rangeroger
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:15 AM

David, my support is with you.

I quit,cold-turkey, 16 years ago and will never take it up again. Once you've made that determination it will stick with you.

Congratulations.

rr


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: bobbi
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:44 AM

Congrats! That was the smartest thing I ever did (not exactly genius material..just cute) 21 years ago. It was hard... but sooooo worth it! I'm proud of you... b


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:46 AM

Great, David. I would love to know what worked for you.

What finally worked for me, 23 years ago, was just simply not wanting to be a smoker any more.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:29 AM

Why quit?

Overall, it is a damn ENOYABLE experience!!!!


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 03:23 AM

And death is a merciful release from lung cancer.

David--good man! Eat plenty of fresh fruit and lay off the bolied sweets.

Steve (ex-50-a-day)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: nutty
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 04:37 AM

Glad it was easy for somebody --- I'm still battling , but I'm winning!!! (7months now)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: alison
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:21 AM

well done David

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Kjell
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:32 AM

I had to give up due to a strange allergy to tobacco. I used to enjoy a smoke and I am sure I would still be smoking if it were not for the allergy. I miss the smoke after a nice meal.
I applaud you in the hard struggle, if its what you want, go for it
Kjell (who at last has got a cookie again)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Banjer
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 06:26 AM

Way to go!! I also quit cold turkey 13 years ago, more because of the expense than for health reasons, but I am glad I did. I think we would all love to hear your method. Why not share it with us here?


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: kendall
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 06:41 AM

I quit almost five years ago, but, I still hanker for one sometimes. Noticed a sign in the grocery store yesterday, "New low price, only $20.00 per carton!

Garg, you will never convince me that you or anyone really enjoys sucking up poison air. You smoke to avoid the discomfort of not smoking. Big difference. Your body screams for nicotine, you give it some and the desire wanes for a while. Truth is, you dont feel better for smoking, you feel worse for not smoking. Big difference.

I know you will argue, nicotine addicts are all alike, denial is more than a river in Africa.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: GUEST,Sergio Alguim
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:37 AM

Congratulations.

For those who find it difficult to quit: Its getting easyer for each time you try. You simply get experienced in quitting.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 07:45 AM

Congratulations ! I quit on Jan 21st 1981 and have never smoked since. In my case I had a health scare from an X-ray that had, thankfully, been misread by the doctor, but it was enough to scare me into quitting. By the time I found out there was in fact nothing wrong with me I had quit for ever.

Murray


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: jeffp
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 08:09 AM

Congratulations from me too!! I quit in April after 30 years of smoking and will never have another. You'll love it when you notice your wind coming back, stairs getting easier to climb, and just a better feeling overall.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: DancingMom
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 08:25 AM

GOOD FOR YOU!!! Your body has already started to heal. I quit 18 years ago. What did it for me was being pregnant (not a smoking cessation method to recommend, obviously!)and suddenly those cigs were making me really sick.

It's tough taking care of someone with emphysema or lung cancer. They struggle just to breathe.

On a positive note, it's cool to be able to smell and taste again. Sharon


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: paddymac
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 09:04 AM

Seems like I quit a hundred times or more, but finally "for ever" nearly 27 years ago. There was a group of us in the office that each put up $5 (went a lot further then than now) with the proviso that the last one to start smoking again got the pot. We started the wager with a hellacious pub crawl. It turned out to be one of those snot-flinging, floor-crawling, pot-hugging outings. For three days after I was afraid I would die, on the one hand, and afraid I wouldn't on the other. I never even thought of having a smoke the whole week (and this from a guy with a three-pack-a-day habit). It was then I thought "Hey, maybe I can do this." I just toughed it out the second week, but then it was like just flicking the off switch in my mind. I told myself "hey, I've won this fight," and never looked back. For a few years after, I had a strong allergic response (probably psychosomatic)to second-hand smoke, to the extent that I pretty much quit the pubs. That eventually passed. I have never had a desire to have a cigarette since then, but I confess that I have been known to move downwind of a good cigar or pipe. I don't have any inclination to have one, but do vicariously enjoy somebody else's. I have great respect and admiration for anyone who is able to make the break, however they do it.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Noreen
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 09:35 AM

paadymac- who got the pot? ;0)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Rowana (at work)
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 09:54 AM

BRAVO!


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 11:05 AM

Can't say I've quit, because I never started. My mom and dad both quit cold turkey, which was the best way for them. By all statistics, I should have been a smoker too as both of my parents smoked. Actually, I have my mom to thank in a back door sort of way. I had to pitch in with housekeeping chores as both parents worked. One of my jobs was to clean the ash trays. I used to get physically sick doing it. I decided then and there, I would never smoke.

Congrats to those who have quit and to those struggling, all of my best to you too.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Grab
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 11:30 AM

Nice one Dave! Good luck with that.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 11:35 AM

QUITTER!!!!!

Ttttppppbbbbbbt!!!

:-)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM

A doctor told me once that death by lung cancer is a 'kind' death, compared to death from emphysema.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: ScottyG
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:27 PM

I smoked 26 years, tried to quit cold turkey several times and couldn't hack it. One beautiful day 5 years ago, I thought to myself...emphysema runs in the family, and if I don't quit this senseless habit, I won't be around to enjoy such lovely days. I stuck my head in the patio door, told my wife (a non-smoker)I wanted to quit. Without a word, she flew out the door, went to the drug store and bought me the patch. Beyond brief, minor discomfort the first day, I've never felt the slightest urge to light up again. Even surrounded by a cloud of Marlboro smoke at the pub. Of course, I put on about 30 pounds almost immediately. Never knew how good food tasted! For those trying to become an ex-smoker, however you plan to do it, you really have to want to quit. Putting my actual physical addiction to nicotine in the right perspective was key to my success in quitting. I realized it was only the tip of the iceberg. Getting used to not having a cigarette in my hand; not watching the smoke billow in front of me, or not testing my expertise at blowing smoke rings was far more difficult than putting up with periodic waves of nicotine withdrawal, which were greatly diminished, thanks to the patch. Hats off to those who can stop without the patch, gum, or other cessation aid. They ain't cheap! But then, neither are ciggys. (Do they still call 'em "fags" in Scotland?)

SG


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:42 PM

Congratulizations!

Personally, I do enjoy a tobacco product once in awhile, but not every day. I realize, though, that for some people, nicotine is easy to get addicted to, and hard to get away from. So getting away from it is a huge accomplishment, and I applaud you for it. :-)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 12:56 PM

Well done to all the quitters, just a thought, someone mentioned the savings factor, so three cheers for all the US quitters as I can remember the difference in the price compared with the UK and Ireland was dollars cheaper. Ah those lovely big US Cigars, now thankfully a distant memory. Slan Ard Mhacha.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Cobble
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:14 PM

Well done David, I quit cold turkey in May still doing OK ( smoked for over 30 years). I can still say I like smoking !! It was a throat infection that would not clear up that finally got me to quit. I also found it much easier than I thought it would to quit.

Best wishes

Mrs Cobble


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: gnu
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:24 PM

WARNING : Nicotine gum gave me polyps on my vocal cords. I can't sing near as well as I used to because the polyps were surgically removed for biopsy (sp ?). Actually, I never did sing really well, so it's not much of a loss.

If anyone is going to use an aid to quit, stay away from that darn gum and good luck.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Peg
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:30 PM

congratulations!!!!!!! be sure to tell folks you know (especially smokers) so they can become inspired. (tho as we all know this is NOT easy for many who have tried...)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:33 PM

Good on ya!! Congratulations!!

I smoked like a chimney (two to three packs a day) for thirty years, and finally quit on June 19th, 1978. Not that hard! It surprised me. I had tried to quit several times before and usually got as far as the third day before I caved in (and thirty seconds after the first drag, I'd sit there hating myself). I was convinced that I could never quit. But at the same time, I was sick of spending fifteen minutes every morning trying to cough up a lung. And it occurred to me that here I was, a singer, and I was smoking! If I played the clarinet, would I blow hot smoke through my instrument forty to sixty times a day? And a clarinet could take it a lot better than my larynx. That's idiotic!! I decided several months before I actually did quit that I definitely wanted to, and I prepared for it. I made a plan of action and followed it. It turned out that I quit a couple of weeks earlier than I had intended to, but it was the afternoon of June 19th, I was at John Dwyer's house, and that evening the Seattle Song Circle was going to meet there. It was also my birthday. I have three cigarettes left and I'd have to buy some more. But why not bag it now? Give yourself a birthday present. So I did. I went out on John's deck (John didn't smoke and he didn't allow smoking in his house) and smoked the three cigarettes, gave my lighter away, and that was it.

How did I make it this time? I wanted to quit, and I prepared for it. And it was amazingly easy.

Epilog: two weeks later I was at work when a young woman came back from her coffee/cigarette break and sat down beside me. What went through my mind at the time was "My Gawd! I used to smell like that!!" **GAG!!**

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Jim Krause
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:36 PM

David, Keep on keepin' on and Lache pas la patate.
Jim


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 01:54 PM

Milk not the potato?


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:01 PM

So, ddw, how DID you do it? I'd like to pass along your, and the others, method. What was the impetus?


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:08 PM

Agree with Guest Sheila

I'd like to hear your method too - why are you hiding it?

Please post what worked for you here - could help some others

Thanks


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Bernard
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:12 PM

Mmmmmm.... what about those of us who had the sense not to start smoking in the first place?! ;o)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:37 PM

I guess I'll have to up my intake to compensate for your quitting eh Dave!

LOL!!!

Glad to be of service...

;-)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: okthen
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:40 PM

Does anyone have any info on what the tobbacco industry calls "additives"? Like what do they "add",(and why) do they add cadmium for instance or is it naturally occurring in the plant? Also if they add to the product shouldn't they list what's been added on the packet?

Nearly 8 months since I quit, (thanks to zyban) but there are still times when I could just pop out for a .......

singing I won't if you don't, nor will I

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Cappuccino
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 02:45 PM

"Don't milk the potato?" That's wonderful! I think it's a Cajun phrase for 'don't drop the potatoes', which themselves are allegorical potatoes... Congratulations, David, very well done. And for American catters, may I remind you that while you buy cigarettes in cartons, we buy them in packs of 20. Which is why the rock guitarist Ian Hunter got a strange look when he went to an American shop some years ago and asked for 'Twenty Marlboro'. The guy gave him a funny look and heaved twenty great cartons on to the counter! And who's going to be the first to remind us that we English refer to cigarettes as 'fags'...?

- ian B


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: vindelis
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 03:00 PM

Well done all you ex-smokers. Watching someone enduring an attack of pluresy, is the best turn-off I can think of.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Jenny the T
Date: 09 Aug 01 - 05:06 PM

Good job you quitters!

Three packs a day for fifteen years for me, and I quit a dozen times. When I started coughing up pieces of lung, it made me really want to quit, and that was the last time I had to do so.

Haven't had a cigarette since May 1990. Haven't had any cravings since ... oh, a couple years now.

JtT


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: ddw
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 12:41 AM

Wow!

It's not that I'm hiding the method I found — I just wasn't expecting this much interest in the topic. I thought I was the last idiot in the world still smoking (except Clinton, of course, but he's pretty well hopeless anyway — *BG*) and didn't want to clutter up the M'cat with just another BS thread.

But since several people asked about the method, I'll post what I sent to several people who did PM me about it.

A little over a year ago a friend of mine quit, much to my amazement. He was a two-pack-a-day smoker. Quit cold turkey.

A couple of months ago he wrote about his first smokefree year (he's a columnist at the paper I work for) he said something that really struck a chord for me — It's not the desire to smoke that keeps us hooked, it's the FEAR of quitting, the FEAR of being without a cigarette.

When I asked about it, he said he had been given a book called Easyway to Quit Smoking, by Allen Carr. He recommended it.

With my usual skepticism and lack of trust in self-help books, I read it.

The guy makes a lot of sense. He promises on page one that you'll find it easy to quit and, much to my amazement, he's right.

I won't go into all his details, but the jist of it is that there are two monsters. The Little Monster is the craving for nicotine; the Big Monster is the brainwashing we've undergone all our lives about the pleasures of smoking how nasty the Little Monster gets if we don't feed him.

Carr comes off as a bit of a pompous jerk sometimes, but what he promised, he delivered. On the essentials, he's right. There is NOT any physical pain, there is NOT any increase of jangled nerves and there is NOT any desire for another cigarette. It's all in the mindset.

May not work for everybody, but it sure did for me.

To the point that now the tricky Little Monster is giving me the line "That was so easy, you could do it any time you want — so one won't hurt."

AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

Cheers,

david


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: ddw
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 12:46 AM

Oops,

The line above "the brainwashing we've undergone all our lives about the pleasures of smoking how nasty the Little Monster gets if we don't feed him" should have an "and" between "smoking" and "nasty."

david


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 02:46 AM

"Fear of quitting" is exactly right......such as,
"Is there life after quitting?"........
The other side of the coin is....
"Is there life if you don't quit?"...........I think I might try again.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: DancingMom
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 12:14 PM

That line of thinking might work for other habits you want to unload, too. Eating too much, or that coffee or Diet Coke habit you're wishing you could ditch. Cool.

But I'm not ready to give up the coffee. S.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: kendall
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 12:44 PM

I will NEVER give up coffee! A man should have at least ONE vice.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 01:19 PM

Is there life after life?

Nope...

To quote Sean Connery's character in The Untouchables

"What the hell, ya gotta die of something!"

Serioulsy, congrats Dave, on getting something you wanted to do, done!

;-)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: UB Ed
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 02:24 PM

Wait a second. I quit about eight weeks ago and don't ever want to go through that again! I can now think and speak again, but that first three weeks was absloute HELL. David, are you saying that was all the Big Monster (ie in my head)? Because, if that's the case, I have a Stephen King type of imagination!

I know I can never smoke another or I'll be back to it...And I'm starting to hit high notes I thought were long gone.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM

There's no denying it's hard quitting. I quit for about a year back in 1987 after 15 yrs. of smoking between one and two packs a day. Then life got very stressful and I grabbed a cigarette and went right back to smoking again. I was singing regularly at the time (strolling guitarist, no mike, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays). I suffered constant colds, sore throats, and upper respiratory problems - I still don't know how I managed to keep on singing and did no apparent permanent damage to my voice. Then I stopped again and was so angry with myself because I had to go through the withdrawal symptoms for the second time - I vowed (and meant it) that I would never smoke again. I haven't had one since and have lost all cravings for cigarettes - I don't even want the after dinner smoke which I really used to enjoy. Congratulations are in order to anybody who quits - it ain't easy! I'm another one who won't give up coffee, though!


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM

Warning - all you lot who "will never smoke another" I quit cold turky nine years ago and had no problem until last year in a little crisis someone offered me one and........ bugger I've got to do it again! Only this time I'm gonna have problems!


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: kendall
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 03:48 PM

Thats one of the tricks your addiction plays on you. It will supply you with any excuse to smoke.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: UB Ed
Date: 10 Aug 01 - 03:50 PM

Bummer, smallpiper. I feel for you.

My attitude this time is that I have quit for "today" and will worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Quiting "forever" is too big a concept.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:10 AM

Remember: it's not will power you need - it's wont power.
You are now it that very zone. By the sound of it you are gonna pass through without problems.
(:-!)


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Dorrie
Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:05 PM

WELL DONE love dorrie+the family


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: ddw
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:13 PM

Kendall,

It sounds like you've read the same book I have. Help me tell all those who are going through hell or plan to, IT AIN'T NECESSARY. You're being tricked by your addiction, by tobacco companies and by pharmacutical firms anxious to sell you their cures. They don't work! How did you deal with stress before you started smoking? The only stress a cigarette will relieve is the one caused by the urge to smoke. Despite what you believe, it's not that hard — no worse than feeling mildly hungry.

And the patches and gum can't work. This is not a habit you're breaking — it's a drug addiction. Substituting the FORM of the drug doesn't address the drug urge.

Sorry — I swore I wouldn't be one of THOSE quitters, but it really is wonderful to be smoke free.

cheers,

david


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: kendall
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:45 PM

How did I deal with stress before I started smoking? Excellent question. I withdrew from the source of the stress.


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Subject: RE: I can't believe it was so easy
From: Gypsy
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:08 PM

'ats right. Tobacco companies are who program you to believe that it is difficult to quit, and wouldn't surprize me if they were the ones manufacturing the patch! Went from 2-3 packs a day, to zero, in one fell swoop. Not as hard as it sounds. And my mother, a smoker of 50+ years is a new 10 day nonsmoker. You aren't quitting anything...you are BECOMING a nonsmoker. sometimes semantics really help.


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Mudcat time: 21 October 3:37 PM EDT

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