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BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM In case you haven't seen it, Michael Quinion's World Wide Words is about as interesting a language site as I know.. (he has a mailing list, and I get a short, interesting segment every day or two.) be careful, it's addictive! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:52 PM If I remember this correctly, there are also fasinating similar sounding words from different languages which mean different things, providing a wealth of cross-cultural jokes; in Amharic "bug" means "lamb" and simlarly "lamb" means "beef"; lots of fun when ordering your dinner. I'm not sure what similar sounding words in different languages which have different meanings is called, but I'm sure someone knows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:07 PM Haha, how nice of you, Dicho.**BG** Really, I love words and find it all so very interesting. Thanks so much. I do have one huge older Random House, I think it is from the 60's, which I use for a lot of reference. I also have a 4 volume set which was my grandfather's. It is packed away right now, but it was published in the latter part of the 1800's. The print is so much bigger and easier to read; there just aren't that many words to a page and lots of illustrations. My mom and dad's two volume set was my favourite book when growing up. Have you read The Professor and the Madman by Simon Winchester? This link takes one to an excerpt. PeterT had recommended it and I found it one of the most fascinating books I've ever read. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:36 PM Heteronym list is nice but limited. It mentions drawer but leaves out drawers, as in drop your.... What do you call a word that changes to the opposite meaning through time? Nice is one. It originally meant wanton, derived from Latin for ignorant. Now it means several entirely different things- well-executed, fastidious, well-fitted, particular, agreeable or pleasant, etc., as well as the original meaning in backwoods England. There is a word to really confuse the poor emigrant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:54 PM KatL, somehow I passed over your post without seeing it. I have bookmarked the heteronym site for later reading.I found Webster's Collegiate with CD-ROM in a used bookstore, so it is linked to my computer but rarely used. The dictionary it came in is beside my monitor. The book is the one I find the quickest. I have to cross the room to get to the OED volumes so they are used mostly for word history. I have several Merriam Websters- the older ones have many of the commoner Scots and North England words which have been dropped to make room for the Newspeak and words necessitated by technology. Changes in pronounciation and meanings can also be traced. A few used bookstores have older ones, but most dealers toss them in the garbage- ask a dealer you know to save them for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: ponytrax Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:30 PM Don't forget dialectic variations. What I'd like to hear is someone from deepest Yorkshire, or farthest Scotland, trying to have a conversation with someone from rural Alabama. They'd probably have to communicate via written English. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:08 PM The Merriam Webster Collegiate is also online and it is where I obtained all of the definitions which I posted. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:47 PM My definition of heteronym (previous posting) is from the OED, the complete edition of a few years back (I wish I could afford a new one). Heteronym is defined in the Merriam Webster Collegiate as "one of two or more homographs (as in a bass voice and bass, a fish) that differ in pronounciation and meaning." Mr. Red, the Merriam Webster Collegiate (there are poor imitations also labeled Webster) is the best dictionary for North Americans. If you are in the "mother country" the OED concise is still the best. Both are abridgements and leave out much including the history of the words, but they are portable and affordable. The OED is on line, but the subscription cost is prohibitive except for businesses. Canadians have a problem, since their usage is a mixture of OED and Webster usages plus Franglais. So-called Canadian edition dictionaries are p--- poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:23 PM wel, I wuz impresed wif that page, but now all my spel chekers are confuzd. It's interesting....the internet may well become the salvation of coherent spelling policy, since search engines and spell checkers are gradually enforcing a standard, even for those who have difficulties 'memorizing' words. Now, if we can just get some sort of agreement between UK English and American English about the use of 's' and 'z' and whether or not to stick extra 'u's in words like 'colo(u)r'. Me?..I'm for compact words, but since I can't touch-type, I am pejudiced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 09:50 AM O boy wot fun! The Heteronym Home Page. Lotz uf eenfo!*bg* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: vindelis Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:58 AM QUE? R wee bak tu EEnglish az shee iz spk? Duz thaat meen thaat oi kan wroit az oi speek in sayftee, withoiut gettin haammered boiy teecherz thaat dun unnerztaand wot oii be zaayin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Mr Red Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:35 AM Dicho & Ebbie My Concise OED doesn't list heteronym (hetero -two parts) but does list Homonym and suggests it is the generic for Homophone and Homograph (homo - of one type). Crazy Eddie ain't crazy. What does it say in Webster's? PEDANTS UNITE - you have nothing to loose but your face!!! *****BG***** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Crazy Eddie Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:11 AM The European Commission have just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase in plan that would be known as "EuroEnglish". In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump for joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f".This will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away. By the 4th year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz year, ve vil hav a realy sensibl riten styl. zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand each ozer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:10 AM Thanks, Dicho, Ebbie and Crazy Eddie. That'll teach to me include all of the definitions. Homophone and homograph were there, too, I just didn't pay attention. Had not heard of heteronym. Look like homograph is also correct. Interesting connotations, these days.*bg*
Main Entry: het.ero.nym
Main Entry: ho.mo.graph
Main Entry: ho.mo.phone
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,chuck Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:29 AM Shelly Berman invented a plural word, and let the audience guess the singular: "Two jackeye." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Ebbie Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:11 AM Thanks, Dicho. Heteronym it is. When I was an ESL tutor, I was continually amazed at how adept many people were at understanding our oddities, just by using context. And early on, I also was taken aback at how frequently I used slang or jargon. It took me a fair amount of time to become sensitized enough not to make their task more difficult. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Crazy Eddie Date: 12 Aug 01 - 01:02 AM Just to ad my 2cents worth, I thought these were the definitions. Homophone A word which sounds the same as another, but is written differently. So, Sew Homograph A word written the same as another, but pronounced differently. wind (air movement) and wind (to tension a spring). My understanding is that homonym includes both of these categories. Of course, I could be wrong. I thought I was once, but i was mistaken. :o) Eddie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Charley Noble Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM Anyone who is teaching in English to students who have learned it as a second (or third) language soon discovers who careful we must be in speaking. I was refering up above to "pretty hard" as meaning "very hard" and yet "pretty" more commonly means "rather beautiful" than "very" and can be confusing. There are many more odd English words waiting to be blurted out as we travel "abroad", or shall I say beyond our country's borders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:26 PM English dictionaries. One of the first to start putting things together was Cotgrave's Dictionary of English and French which came out in 1612. His friend, the playwright Ben Jonson, published a grammar, equally important. The word you are seeking is HETERONYM- having the same spelling but different meaning and sound. B. G. Wilder coined the term in the mid-1800s. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Ebbie Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:35 PM kat, I believe fox4zero was asking if there is an 'official' term for words that are spelled alike but pronounced differently, not homonyms. I'm sure there is such a term- but it escapes me! Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:10 PM Guest CFJS: The reason that rough and although are pronounced differently has nothing to do with the part of England they came from. Rough is Old High German Ruh (with umlaut) which is found in Old English. Although is a Middle English word, at leeast as old as the 14C. Also see my earlier posting on the origins of English. KatL had two rows, e.g. row of pins, row the boat, but I had a row with my better half. Try Canadian English- a mixture of Oxford, American and Franglais. Of course the Americans are pretty homogeneous compared with the Britons who show differences between upper class "Oxford" English and the English spoken by the masses. Not all dialect either. One outstanding example was "serviette." The OED maintained that the word was vulgar, since it was an unnecessary use of a foreign word. Table napkin was preferred. Canadians are often taught serviette at home and in school. Americans almost invariably use the word napkin. Now in the minds of some people, napkin gets confused with diapers or "nappies." As a result serviette is gaining ground in English upper class use. Americans as a whole have never heard "serviette" unless they have traveled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Mr Red Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:51 PM one more string to the "BOW" beau actually the English language (and all it's patois's) is a boon to humour. The ambiguity it presents from its myriad contributions makes the pun into an art form. And me a pundit! contnetious??? Discus ------ (just thought I would through that in) DISCUSS ------- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: vindelis Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:43 PM Of course there is also the task of paring a pair of pears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: vindelis Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:23 PM There is also the question of which 'English' is being taught, 'Oxford' or 'American'. When I was at Grammar School, all foreigners learnt Oxford English and spoke English with their native accent. These days American English seems to have taken over, and you don't realize they are NOT American until they revert to their native language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,CFJS Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:52 PM I suspect there are two reasons why English is so heard to learn: 1)It is composed of many different root languages, before we start adding modern colloquialisms: Celtic,Latin, Saxon/Viking and Norman French. Giving it roots in Celtic, Latin and Germanic languages, which I understand is fairly unusual. It can become quite intresting when you look at the roots of some usages, for example a cow is a cow in the feild where the Saxon serf looked after it, but Beef on the table where a Norman lord ate it (look at the other meats, and you can work out what was not 'noble' fair). 2) When the the printing press was invented the first person to try to write a dictionary for the language took his spellings from different areas of the country, which affected the pronouncation, hence rough is pronounced ruff, whilst although is prounounced 'all tho. I'm English and long ago came to the conclusion that there is no rhyme or reason for the way we spell or pronounce things, but that we, and the rest of the world are stuck with it. Good luck CFJS
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: katlaughing Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:24 PM There sure is, Larry. Here ya go and thanks for asking. You must have quite a collection!
Main Entry: hom.onym |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: fox4zero Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:01 PM Katlaughing Is there an "official" term for words that are spelled alike but have pronounced differently? Like wind (air movement) and wind (to tension a spring). I have been collecting them for years. Larry Parish
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Brían Date: 11 Aug 01 - 09:27 AM One moose, two meese? Not likely! Brían. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: mytoycar Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:28 AM the reason english is so hard to learn is because no english person can speak their own language so how is any one else ment to |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Fiolar Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:14 AM Don't forget the newspaper headline which completely flummoxed a foreign student doing his best to learn English - "Pope Pronounced Worse." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bert Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:50 AM Software is not necessarily a program it can be other data. And a program is not necessarily software it can be embedded in the hardware where it is sometimes called firmware. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Bill D Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:01 AM because English borrows so much from other languages, it is amazingly flexible....so it can be used beautifully and elegantly...or made cumbersome and stupid by ineptitude. This DOES make it difficult to learn well, and no 'simple' rules...but when it is carefully honed, it can do many things.... for example, some of G.W.F. Hegel's philosophy is so difficult in Hegel's original German, that German students regularly read it in the English translation, which seems to have 'more' words to explicate the complex concepts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:00 PM Jeanie has a point. I can translate scientific German and have had published in Germany a technical book on plant morphology and nomenclature, but I find it impossible to read the first page of a German equivalent of a Harlequin roman. The big words in scientific writing fall apart and are easily handled. You soon learn also how to do without the verb until you have completed the paragraph-long sentence as well. Gender and case stop me- except the wonderful subjunctive so loved by German scientists. Perhaps because we learn English first, it becomes extremely difficult to learn European languages. Now if the world would recognize the innate superiority of English- wouldn't it be a dull place! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: toadfrog Date: 10 Aug 01 - 10:07 PM On why English is so hard to learn, Click Here On the other hand, the first song I ever learned in German begins: Lernen Sie Englisch oder koennen Sie schon. Ich gebe gerade die fuenfe Lektion. Wenn Sie zu mir in die Unterricht geh'n, da koennen Sie nach vierzehn Tag' Alles verstehen! Dann brauchen Sie kein Dolmetscher mehr, denn Englisch ist gar nicht so schwer! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Aug 01 - 09:36 PM GUEST Aelewyn... I think that possibly you meant "dumbass". It's a synonym for Spaw. For further info, call the information desk at the NYCFTTS. - LH
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Ebbie Date: 10 Aug 01 - 09:31 PM English must be an easy language- I was no more than a tot when I learned it. :) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Shields Folk Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM I don't know about you but I pronounce the u in harbour! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Jeanie Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:06 PM Quite right, Ranger Steve ! (Are you on first name terms with Yogi Bear and Booboo, by the way, or is that an old joke by now ?) As a very-glad-to-be-only-part-time-teacher-of-German, also in English we don't have a case system which draws a distinction between saying "I came into the room" (Accusative Case) and "I am sitting in the room" (Dative Case) and other wunderbare things. One big drawback, in English we don't have really long and easily pronouncable words like: Schnellzugzuschlagschein; Kolonialwarenladen; Gassackentfaltungsgeschwindigkeitsmessgeraet undsoweiter. I'm sure the German Mudcat contributor will add a few more. Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:06 PM A Chicago newspaper tried to simplify by changing the GK. ph to f, as in fotography, as the Spanish do. I believe the Toronto Globe and Mail is starting to leave out the u in harbor (and other American non-u words) to more closely match majority usage in North America. There is a basic English (horrid thought), limited, I believe, to 800 words. Pidgin is better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: catspaw49 Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:51 PM I fayl tu see the problem. Inglish iz an ez langwaj tu lern. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: RangerSteve Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:43 PM We don't have a formal and informal "you", we don't apply different genders to inanimate objects, thus requiring variations on "the". For those reasons alone I'm glad it's my native language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Firecat Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:31 PM Well, yeah, you've got a point there Shields Folk, BUT I'm an English student and you should see the length of the essays I have to write! 3000 words in 90 minutes! Not easy for me, cos if I want it to be legible I have to write really slowly. It's easier on computers! You get spell checkers on computers as well but you don't if you're writing by hand, and in my essays you get points knocked off for misspelt words, so I always end up losing marks if I've used words like "Definate" for something that is certain, or "Stationery" for something that's not moving. It's not as easy as it seems!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:29 PM English is a language to be spoken? Aren't they all? To get back to computer lingo, spam makes me want to url my cookies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Shields Folk Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:06 PM English is a language to be spoken. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Firecat Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:03 PM Eh????? Seriously though, there was apparently some people who tried to simplify spelling in the 19th Century, but it fell through. Tipikal. I wud hav prifered it to bee simplifyd, cos it wud bee eeseer and it wudn't matter if yoo cudn't spel rite! AND yoo wudn't get anoyin wurds like "Disciplinary" that ar reely dificult to spell!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Shields Folk Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:48 PM So not English then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Gareth Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:44 PM English evolves, it is only chauvenistic fools who try to keep a linguistic purity - such as the French or North Waliams. Any how, when you look at the various infiltrations into the Saxon linga from precursors such as the various varieties of the Celtic and Brython tounges, and Latin, through Norse, French, and "colonial" imports, how much is english english - comprende O.K. ? It's easier to spell software rather than program(e), and to revive the "Spam" wartime story - its bland, soft, and everybody gets it ! - perfect for electronic junk mail. Anyway I am bilingual - I speak Swelsh and Sarf Lundun. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM Nothing so base as a base player balling the jack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: GUEST,Ealewyn Maas Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:23 PM I hab not find the Eenglhish soo hard to learned. I am so good to speaking the Eenglish now that most peoples they understand almoste every word I saying. For me it is langwage witout paralell in world. Only what means dymbass? I am thinking it is meaning some kinds of stupid? Yes? Please to enlighting me. Ealewyn Maas |
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Subject: RE: Help: Reasons why English is so hard to learn From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 06:05 PM A Dutch friend said he was going to take a douche. We found out he meant shower. |