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Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks

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Rick Fielding 12 Aug 01 - 02:53 PM
Justa Picker 12 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM
Rick Fielding 12 Aug 01 - 05:06 PM
GUEST 12 Aug 01 - 06:50 PM
Rick Fielding 12 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM
JedMarum 12 Aug 01 - 10:32 PM
Mark Clark 12 Aug 01 - 10:34 PM
Rick Fielding 12 Aug 01 - 11:44 PM
Sandy Paton 12 Aug 01 - 11:51 PM
Rick Fielding 13 Aug 01 - 12:39 AM
Marion 13 Aug 01 - 01:30 AM
Barbara Shaw 13 Aug 01 - 08:36 AM
Rick Fielding 13 Aug 01 - 11:46 AM
GUEST 13 Aug 01 - 01:25 PM
Rick Fielding 14 Aug 01 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Old time banjo player 15 Aug 01 - 12:33 AM
Rick Fielding 15 Aug 01 - 01:04 PM
Barbara Shaw 15 Aug 01 - 02:16 PM
JedMarum 16 Aug 01 - 09:01 AM
JedMarum 16 Aug 01 - 09:16 AM
GUEST,Fortunato 16 Aug 01 - 10:31 AM
RichM 16 Aug 01 - 11:47 AM
Fortunato 16 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM
RichM 16 Aug 01 - 06:14 PM
Rick Fielding 17 Aug 01 - 12:52 AM
Fortunato 17 Aug 01 - 09:19 AM
Rick Fielding 17 Aug 01 - 11:56 AM
DougR 17 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM
JedMarum 18 Aug 01 - 11:58 AM
Rick Fielding 18 Aug 01 - 12:07 PM
DougR 18 Aug 01 - 02:32 PM
JedMarum 18 Aug 01 - 03:00 PM
Rick Fielding 19 Aug 01 - 12:01 PM
Big Mick 19 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM
JedMarum 20 Aug 01 - 12:59 AM
Barbara Shaw 20 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM
Rick Fielding 21 Aug 01 - 01:28 AM
Barbara Shaw 21 Aug 01 - 08:24 AM
Rick Fielding 21 Aug 01 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Flawn 21 Aug 01 - 02:38 PM
Peter T. 21 Aug 01 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,anne_pearson@lineone.net 21 Aug 01 - 02:58 PM
Barbara Shaw 21 Aug 01 - 03:34 PM
Rick Fielding 21 Aug 01 - 11:35 PM
Les B 21 Aug 01 - 11:44 PM
Rick Fielding 21 Aug 01 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,Al Lubanes 23 Aug 01 - 11:49 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 12 Jan 02 - 06:18 PM
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Subject: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 02:53 PM

I sure hope this will prove as useful as the information I received when asking about Mini-disc recorders. Thanks to a LOT of well-informed Catters, I saved about 150 bucks! Got the best model Mini-disc as well.

Although I certainly have a lot of experience in how to USE a microphone properly, I'm not up on the currently available ones.

I'd like to buy a (three actually) mike that would be effective for voice AND instrument simultaneously. Kind of like what acoustic bands would have used 40 to 50 odd years ago. Something that when placed at about "chin level" would pick up the singing AND the guitar (or banjo or mandolin etc.).

As some might know, I put a pretty traditional band together about three months ago, and although it's been fun, I'm really getting bogged down in the amount of sound equipment that's being used to amplify it. We have a good sound guy at Hugh's Room every Monday night, who's certainly "acoustic friendly", but naturally he's using state of the art methods to mike and amplify the band. THIS is what I've been trying to get away from! There are simply not enough dynamics (playing soft or loud, moving in and out from the mike) when everyone's plugged in....or even when each player has a vocal AND instrumental mike.

I know I'm hopelessly rooted in the past when it comes to my musical taste, but I DO remember seeing Flatt and Scruggs, The Clancy brothers and Pete Seeger in concert venues when I was a teenager and they ALL used ONE mike. I certainly had no problems hearing them from the back row...and the music "Breathed".

Can anyone tell me if there are mikes out there that can do that? And the price if possible.

Thanks

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Justa Picker
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM

Are you thinking along the lines of something like this?


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 05:06 PM

Thanks Justa. Visually it's nice and they have one at Encore Music, but there's nothing that indicates it would pick up BOTH voice and guitar. It would seem to be unidirectional (unless I've missed something) The price is good though.

Hope there is something available that would REPLACE the need for two mikes.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:50 PM

Mmmm,

Rick, is there a chance that you're remembering things through Rose Colored hearing aids?

My guess is that an audience expect a much better sound than they did then. If the acts you saw as a teenager were magically transported to the present, and you were sat in the back row today, would you still feel the same about the sound quality?

Maybe I'm just a cynic

Anyhow good luck with your search, I'd like to read about what you come up with

Regards

JJ


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM

Damn straight about those Rose coloured glasses JJ!

Shit, I guess I've just reached the age where I want "the good old days"!

But I DO WANT 'EM!

So if anyone else has any mike suggestions (omni directional or wide-pattern as i mentioned in my post) please HEP ME. HEP ME!

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:32 PM

I suspect you can find a good mic for that purpose. I have heard that this technique is becoming more and more popular with trad bluegrass bands. I will see if my bluegrass friends have any particulars and pass 'em on. BUT I took a quick look at Elderly.com and found this mic and thought it might just do well for your purposes. A good omni directional condenser mic (or maybe cardioid) should work. You will have some probs with monitors, perhaps - but if you're relying on the live stage sound, that may not be an issue.

I would simply give up and use the typical hi tech sound stage equip - there's lots of it out there, it's a mature technology and folks know how to use it well - but I certainly do understand the wish for a lower profile, lower tech stage. All that equip just seems to suck the joy of it sometimes!


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:34 PM

Rick, the Sure KSM44 seems to satisfy your technical requirements although it's listed as a studio mic. Better talk to a professional sound engineer before shelling out the $1,393.60 USD.

A more cost effective choice migh be the Sure SM63. It's dynamic range, at the top, is much better than the 55SH Series II and the 30 Hz it's missing on the bottom is really only useful if your're a bass player.

Good luck, I'll be interested in learning what you finally purchase and why.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:44 PM

Hmmmm, getting interesting. Thanks guys.

I mentioned earlier how the mini-disc purchase was made so much easier by the info provided here. Someone (maybe Banjo Bonnie) sent me a site where mini-disc users discussed the pros and cons of every make and model. It was a great help 'cause I believe in Vox Populii more than company info. I ended up getting the Sony model 37 something 'cause so many of the people said it was duperior to their more current models. Wonder if there's anything like that for mikes.

Jed, If you could scam a little info from your Bluegrass friends that would be great.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:51 PM

You're asking for feedback problems with an omni, Rick. I'd try a good ribbon mike that can be tilted to pick up more or less of the guitar, used in a cardioid configuration. The old hand-made Cambridge mikes I used for years (no longer made) were perfect for this in the studio, but they were figure-eights, and not for PA use. Perhaps the AKG414 (with phantom power) could do it. They have a variable pick-up pattern, but may be too expensive. What do the guys at Borealis suggest? I'd be curious.

By the way, that second post from a "Sandy" in the ancient "pick up lines" thread, something about about "getting naked," was from some OTHER Sandy, not from me!

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 12:39 AM

I haven't seen that thread Sandy and I'm glad it wasn't you because I'd rather not think of you in the all-together. My heroes are ALL fully clothed. Speaking of heroes....is there an "e" or not in that word?

RIBBON MIKES! That's what I was trying to think of. Do they still make them? Are they hugely expensive?

I'm going to get as much info as I can before heading to the music store.

Thanks

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Marion
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:30 AM

Take a look at this post; RichM's bluegrass band all share a mike.

Marion


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:36 AM

Rick, here's a link to another mudcat page talking about the same question. Sound Check

I was also looking for a single mic setup, and found it. We use an Audio Technica AT4033 cardioid mic ($300 - $350), which is the same setup used by the Del McCoury Band.

This one mic in the center along with one mic mounted on the bass worked very well. The board already has phantom power, EQ, etc, so we just need to plug in the two mics, set the levels (which I wrote down) and start playing! No monitors required, because we're all so close and can self-balance our sound. An experienced sound engineer helped us set the levels for this particular room.

We have to learn how to move in and out of the range of the mic for solo breaks and harmony vocals.

The HUGE benefit is quick setup and breakdown time, and the sound is actually very good. One drawback is the choreography required, but that actually provides some visual interest for the audience.

Good luck. Hey, I'd love to hear your band! When are you coming Down East?


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 11:46 AM

THANK YOU!

This is getting VERRY helpful.

Here's Rich's post...hope he doesn't mind me using it again.

"Mildly off topic, a friend and former bandmate bought a new Shure 55, thinking we could do the 3 singers-on-one-mic-trick,alas as you say it's a fake mic, with the innards of a shure 58!.

We finally did get a mic for the one-mic approach: an AudioTechnica 4033. Used with a Boss feedback eliminator, it can be made really HOT to pick up vocals and instruments from 18 inches to 3 or more feet away. That's all we use for 3 voices, guitar, mandolin, fiddle and whatever--except for my upright bass which goes into a separate channel. Cool gear! We are doing a couple of festivals this summer; it would be nice if the sound people are familiar enough with the concept to let us use it!"

Rich McCarthy

Rick Fielding again: I'm so glad folks have clicked into HOW and WHY I want to go this route. It's simply a lot more fun, and far less distracting. Besides I LOVE the acoustic sound of my instruments and I hate using pickups on them.

Part of how I earn my living is doing "commercial" "old time" gigs at conventions and BarBQs. For that kind of thing I don't mind being a bit electric, or multi miked. For my OWN enjoyment (and those low-paying folk gigs) I wanna be Pure as the driven snow!!

Thanks again

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 01 - 01:25 PM

Rick,

You mentioned in another thread (I think) that you were putting together a UK tour

Too much to ask that you'd bring your band over... oh well

Good thoughts to you

Mudcatter


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 12:02 PM

Hi Guest. Would I ever LOVE to! I've been a part-timer for the last few years and I simply wouldn't be able to generate the publicity to pay for it. I'm very proud of the way the band's come together, and I think the music and the approach are damn good, I just ain't got the "profile' at this time. Thanks for asking. I'm hoping to play at several smaller folk clubs.

Any other "mike" suggestions?

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: GUEST,Old time banjo player
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 12:33 AM

Rick, I know exactly what you are trying to achieve with your band and your sound. It's difficult in this day and age isn't it? I'm in the process of doing exactly the same thing. Be prepared for sound men trying to turn up your volume if you go with just mikes. Also be prepared for audiences not thinking you're loud enough. They are both used to very plugged in songwriters. I'm learning something about mikes from the advice here too. good luck.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:04 PM

Ha Ha! I'm nothing if not prepared! Glad it's been a help. I'm renting a mike that Barbara Shaw suggested for next Monday's gig. Will give it a try.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 02:16 PM

One suggestion someone made to us that we never tried was to have someone videotape the concert. This will give you feedback (no pun) about how your choreography and balance is working, who's too close to the mic, who's too far away and doesn't get picked up, who's tripping over whom, etc.

The one mic really takes some getting used to, and at first we were crowding each other, everyone trying to get close to the mic like we were used to. However, if the room is quiet (attentive, as opposed to playing background), you really don't need to be nearly as close as with regular mics.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out!


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:01 AM

Well Rick, I finally heard back from my bluegrass "friend of a friend" and I think his all of his comments might be of interest to this discussion, so I quote them below. Like Barbara and Rich above, he uses Audio Technia mics, however he uses the Pro 37R model.

For the response below he was asked how they use one or two mics for their performances,

We do this with "two" Audio Technia Pro 37R . They are about the size of your thumb and cost about $140 each. We put one about the height of you chest and sing over the top of it ( if you sing too close into the mike you get breath pops) and locate the other one about waist height to get the instruments. We move this lower mike off to the mando and guitar side of the vocal mike and the banjo is on the other side ... as he cuts thru anything. We turn the monitors off most of the time ... or have the on very faintly at the most. The lead instruments move in closer on the solo and back out for rhythm ..chope etc. The base can be just about anywhere. The interaction between the player is more like practicing in you living room ... and it take some getting use too. This mike setup works for fiddles too. Just move in and out of the vocal til the main speakers are balanced with the rest of the band.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:16 AM

PS: my friend (above) does go on say that one of the draw backs of the single/dual mic configuration is that it is difficult to "feel the drive" they are putting into the tune.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: GUEST,Fortunato
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 10:31 AM

Rick,

Believe it or not I've been seeking the same info, thanks for your thread. I'm going to price an AT 4033s/SM and possibly rent as you have. But Rich's use of the Boss anti-feedback device confuses me, do you know how this device interfaces with the mike/PA?

Please let us know how your Monday night trial of the mike goes. regards, Chance


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: RichM
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 11:47 AM

Fortunato asked how the anti-feedback device works.

Basically, you
Plug the mic into the device, and the device to the mic channel of the mixing board.

Set your mic equalization to your taste by using the board controls;
then: turn the volume UP until you get feedback, then lower the volume a bit till the feedback stops.
Here's the easy part: press the START button, and the unit searches for feedback frequencies--you can hear it working. Takes about 30 to 45 seconds.
It automatically notches out the feedback frequencies.

Presto! That's it.

Turn your PA volume up or down to suit your music. If it feeds back, reset the antifeedback unit , and do the process again.

Note that the AT 4033 requires phantom power. I generally power from the board, but the Roland device also will provide phantom power, via a selector switch.

The Roland will do more, but to this point in time, I haven't needed to explore that.

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Fortunato
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:53 PM

Thanks, Rich. I thought the Boss stuff was solely for guitar effects. Good information.
,br>

For all interested, I asked for set/up sound check info for the Audio Technica 4033a/SM, largely because Rich mentioned the possible unfamiliarity problem on the road, from the folks at ProSoundWeb.com. Here is some of what I got. Largely they recommend the BAND'S familiarty with the mike. "The Sweet Spot":

(sic)Had the Del McCoury Band in last night. They have been using 2 4033s for the last year or so to widen the sound field, although they still mostly concentrate around one of the mikes. They don't use a seperate mike for the bass and there was PLENTY of bass.
The secret of the one mike deal is the band must be able to play loud without monitors.

How to set up/soundcheck? Set up one mike, notch out 3-4 feedback freqs, tweak the low end and set the level 3-5 db below feed back so it doesn't sound hollow. If it's not loud enough, get another band

(sic)I just did this in a small room (200 cap.) for a 5-piece bluegrass band (Jim & Jennie and the Pinetops). Used one 4033. The group played old radio style around the mic-stepping up to the mic for solos and accented parts. There's a definite chorecography the band needs to work out. (it ads to the "show" as well). Bcz of the small space we worked in, I got plenty of bass. He stood 4-5 feet back to one side and I got him fine (made a nice direct to CD board recording too.) On a larger stage, you will want to augment the single mic with a pair of overheads and a mic on the bass. The bass mic will allow you to high pass the main mic bcz your real problem freq. are gonna be in the 120-500Hz area.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: RichM
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 06:14 PM

Good advice, Fortunato.

I forgot to mention I run the Upright Bass into a separate input in the board, through a fishman pickup.

Choreography and positioning are really necessary too. Try not to hit your bandmates in the head with your instrument headstock as you move in and out!

Rich


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 12:52 AM

I've already got two 4033s on order. THANK YOU FOLKS again.

The Boss feedback device sounds great. Keep 'em comin' folks.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Fortunato
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:19 AM

Rick, I take it you were please with the 4033's performance? Any problems, or suggestions?

regards, Chance


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 11:56 AM

Nope Fort, haven't heard them yet. I made some phone calls to a couple of folks who ARE using them and got RAVE reviews, and that, combined with what I've been given here convinced me. 'Course I asked the music store, whether I could take them back the next day if they don't fill the bill and they said "sure". I'm gonna give them a try anyway.

Just a little sidebar. Twice I've opened for Del McCourey, and in both cases, his band (mainly his sons) had serious problems with the sound guy. Probably no one's fault, but it just seems to me that if they'd been using the "one or two" mike set up back them, there would have been no balance problems. With this set up, obviously "balance" is up to the musicians entirely......which should be heaven!

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: DougR
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM

Rick: I assume the purchase of the two microphones will not delay the purchase of a smoker. Es so? :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 11:58 AM

Woah, Rick! You believe balance being up to musicians is heaven? I'd have thought it might prove to be survival of the fittest!

;-)


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 12:07 PM

I dunno Doug, these mikes are gonna run about a grand! The smoker's going to be listed as a "houshold expense".

Jed, they'll learn to balance themselves or I'll kill them.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: DougR
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 02:32 PM

Wow, Rick! You're pretty tough! You offer your band members some kind of accident insurance or something? :>)


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 03:00 PM

LOL, under those circumstances, Rick, I suspect even the most hardened hammering players could learn balance!


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:01 PM

If this isn't an example of how Mudcat is, and remains the most valuable resource on the net for musicians, I don't know what is. The info here (and what I've done with it) will save me about 400 bucks, has spurred me to get in contact with members of the Seldom Scene, and has shown me that a rather archaic direction I wanted to go in with my band (which I'm now trying to name)is VERT do-able.

Thanks again folks.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

I was speaking to Rick on the telephone yesterday and we were talking about The Mudcat and how, even with the occasional flaming asshole, remains a wonderful site. He pointed me to this thread as an example, and I couldn't agree more. The interesting thing is, and I forgot to mention this to Rick, is that the Mandolin player in my band (bluegrass trained) had wanted us to give this a try. After reading this thread, I just may do that.

Great thread, Rick. Thanks for starting it and pointing me to it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 12:59 AM

I am not sure that this technique could really be called arcaic. We have been talking about new tech/high tech mics here, and thr higher quality front-of-house systems that are pretty much available everywhere make this 'old trick revisited' really a pretty modern technique. It's maybe a new twist on an old idea.

I have to say I shudder when I think of it, though! I have gotten so used to the good stuff modern sound equip can do for each musician in a band. I do really enjoy sitting around a parlor, or pub playing inan acoustic setting - sans equip, but I have really gotten used to good equip on-stage! I like the idea of this approach, but I guess I'm just too far down the other road!

I've actually spent several days this week researching a poor man's sub mechanism for a couple of upcoming festivals we have, where I'm providing sound. I've got good stuff for small/mid sized venues, but have to beef up the the low end for bigger stages - and do it at a minimal cost. So, my son and I modified an old PA cab, outiftted it with a semi-tuned port and a very fine Black Widow 15" speaker. I think I just bought a good, used no-frills cross over - and we're in business. We experimented this weekend with the new sub-cab and various combinations of clusterings of the Mains Cabs. We will be able to make a pretty big impact for a small investment, and a few days work. At least now when Eammon plays his bodhran, we shake a few fillings in the teeth of those nearest the stage!

;-)


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:10 PM

Rick, have you started a thread for suggestions of names for your band?


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:28 AM

Nope Barb. Gotta work out some details with the band itself before taking that step.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 08:24 AM

So . . . did you rent an AT4033 for the Monday gig? How did it go?


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 12:41 PM

Nope. Not yet. Gotta have a meeting with the band and see where folks want to take it after the current gig is up. Oddly enough, someone popped out of the woodwork who HAS one and has volunteered to loan it out for a test drive.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: GUEST,Flawn
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:38 PM

The AT4033 is a good mike, but using this band-on-one-mike approach relies a lot more on other factors than on the particular mike used:

--Condition yourself to listen directly to your fellow musicians, don't rely on monitor speakers, or use them as little as possible. Most high-pitched feedback in an amplified setting is due to the feedback path from monitor speakers; lower-pitched feedback is usually more likely to be from the mains. Much less chance of feedback with little or no monitors.

--Feedback controllers (Boss, Roland, Sabine) introduce a slight time delay, called latency, to give them time to do the signal processing involved in identifying the feedback frequency. This can further exaggerate the "out-of-body experience" quality of singing through a PA system. And these controllers are not set-and-forget...feedback pitches will change if the temperature and/or humidity of the room change much, or if either the microphone or the speaker gets moved.

--Rehearsing the choreography involved in getting people and instruments near the mike is a crucial part of the technique. Try to get everybody to think of working 18-30" from the mike. A variance of an inch or two doesn't make nearly the difference at that distance as the difference between being 2" or 4" from the mike. That's part of what makes this technique sound more natural.

--Don't plan on having vocals sound as big/bassy/"ballsy" as with close miked voices. Most mikes used with PAs have a "proximity effect" that emphasizes bass tonality when the mike is worked closer than 8", and many musicians (and audience members) have come to expect that larger-than-life bassiness.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:39 PM

Rick, maybe it is time to turn your attention to the woodwork in your house, as opposed to the woodwork in your instruments. (joke, joke).

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: GUEST,anne_pearson@lineone.net
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:58 PM

You do have to be aware of ego when sharing a mike - my ol' Framus has a scratch under the sound hole and my right hand smallest finger doesn't match the one on the left due to someone diving for the mike in order to lead the chorus and ramming my knuckles with his guitar head.

Anne


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:34 PM

Just saw Karl Shifflet and his Big Country Bluegrass this past weekend, and they used one mic. Choreography is a big part of their act (he does this goofy leg kick every minute or so) but I noticed recurring patterns in how they moved around:

The guy doing a solo (vocal or instrumental) was in the center near the mic. The next guy on board was positioned behind him. As soon as the solo was done, that guy would move to the right and the guy behind him would move forward to the mic. They thus had a circular motion going on, and kept out of each other's path. When Karl sang alone, he sang front and center. When he had harmony singers join him, he kept his spot on the side and the other two singers closed in with him around the mic for a vocal trio.

The point is that they worked out their movement patterns, and stuck to them. When they ducked away from the center, they lowered the neck of their instrument so it would not get in someone's way.

Surprisingly, every instrument could be heard, although not LOUD and VERY PRESENT like we've become used to. When an individual lick needed emphasis, that instrument would slip up closer to the mic for a couple of seconds and then return to it's regular position.

'course, these guys have been doing it awhile, and they have their movements very down. I've gotten a couple of bruises from banjo whacks when Frank and I crashed in mid-song, and he claims I knocked his tuners out a few times (hah, sure, it was MY fault the banjo went out of tune . . .)

My advice is to try it and keep it simple before you invest any money.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 11:35 PM

Oi Vay!! This information is verrrry interesting. Thanks again.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Les B
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 11:44 PM

I may be chiming in a little late here, but thought this might be of interest.

A couple of weeks ago I saw a small bluegrass/old timey group at an outdoor Bar-BQ using two Rode NT 2 microphones in much the same way as mentioned above. I'm not sure but I believe they had two smallish Mackie speakers, and NO MONITORS ! To my ear they had the perfect set up for a small "acoustic" group.

The players were a dobroist, who also did some clawhammer, a bass player who ran a pick-up into a separate line on the board, and a mandolinist/guitarist/vocalist.

The dobro came through loud and clear, as did the mando, guitar and vocals. They seemed to work about two feet from the mics, and, being a trio, didn't have to do any complicated choreography.

When I asked about them, the owner said the mics could either be set in an Omni or a Cardioid pattern, and they set them as Cardioid and angled them at 45 degrees away from each other so as to avoid phase interference. He was recording the gig on a mini-disc, and has already recorded one CD of good quality using this set-up.

These Rode mics are normally about $800 US, and are made in Australia. They list for about $400 in the Musicians Friend catalog and online. You might want to check them out.


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 11:49 PM

Thanks les.

I'm going to see if some info in another direction comes up here.click

Rick


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: GUEST,Al Lubanes
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 11:49 PM

I will share my experience with using a single mic with my 4 piece acoustic band. I have an AT 4033 and an AT 4050. Although the 4050 might seem to be just a switchable pattern version of the 4033, there is one big difference: the 4050 set to cardioid pattern produces much less feedback than the 4033 with its nonswitchable cardioid pattern. For this reason, I recommend spending the extra dough ($500 vs. $300) to get the 4050. Definitely get a wind sock made special for the brand of mic.

The mic picks up best when standing about an arm's distance away, with the height set chest high. You should try to get all musicians to stand within +/- 60 degrees of straight ahead (total of 120 degrees). If you have a tripod mic stand, the angle between two of the legs serves as a guide. This all translates into bunching pretty close, but not so close as to interfere with three musicians. The bass should either stand behind the other musicians in the middle, or use a separate pickup or mic.

The technique works much better outdoors than indoors due to feedback considerations. When outdoors, you can even use some monitor and still get away without feedback. Indoors, sound bouncing off the back wall of the room comes back to create feedback.

A useful feedback reduction technique is to place the main speakers 45 degrees from straight ahead relative to the microphone, but still pointing straight ahead and separated the usual amount. This places them quite a bit further out front than most people are used to, but it works well. If you place the speakers directly to each side of the mic and band, the feedback becomes a major problem.

The quality of the sound using this setup is excellent, and if you plug a minidisc recorder into the board, you will end up with very near a cd quality recording of your performance.

Hope this helps.

Al Lubanes


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Subject: RE: Help Omnidirectional Microphones. thanks
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 06:18 PM

A friend of mine passed on information on a company's microphones he uses with his Minidisc.

Core Sound Microphone Products


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