BS: Experimental Forum

Subject: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:56 AM

Here we go McGrath, I'll try a new thread...

There have been within Mudcat certain repetitive type of threads such as the Healing Circle that have caused problems in the past. There may also be other areas, perhaps areas where Mudcatters share a common interest but many threads on the same interest could cause problems and would perhaps be better taking place elsewhere but Mudcatters would like to be together.

I have set up a forum at http://www.jonbanjo.com/forum/ which I have decided as an experiment to address the above to make availible to Mudcatters.

The deal is simple. If anyone wants to try a category/forum, they let me know, I set it up and that person becomes the moderator of the forum with the rights to edit posts and close threads. All I ask in terms of moderation is that where possible, the open spirit of Mudcat is adhered to although 1: I think as these areas will be specialised, it would be fair to keep them on topic 2: I am bound by an agreement which does not allow pornographic material, copyrighted or other illegal material or anything connected to hacking - any such stuff would have to be removed.

The idea is that this runs side by side with Mudcat, not in competetion with it and there are certain areas, even BS ones such as the political and religious debates we get here that I wouldn't even consider creating categories for. The idea is simply to allow extra space for more specialised areas.

One last thing. I only have 40Mb of Webspace so anything posted would have a limited life and I may be limited in what I can host. I haven't got round to considering issues like archiving yet.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 08:09 AM

If you only have 40MB of space, you'd better bar Spaw from posting to it :-)

Good luck, Jon

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 08:28 AM

I think this could be a useful development - if there's a need for it, it'll work, and if there isn't it won't, and that's how it should be.

Only thing, I'd hate it if people were to start going on in the main forum complaining that a particularly thread shouldn't be there, and ought to be over on jonbanjo. I think it is important that the Mudcat forum remains an open one, and I'm very glad that Max sees it that way.

But do you even need to create categories? Mightn't it be easier to have it so that, if someone wanted to start up a discussion thread or something, and felt it'd be more comfortable away from the main forum, I can imagine them opening a thread here just saying that, and giving a link. But first I imagine they'd get on to jon and sort out the details of moderating it, and checking that it didn't fall into some area that you rule out. (For example, what counts as politics or religion isn't always as straightforward as that.)

(This all comes out of something on raised in another thread, and since the thread was getting long, and was also about a lot of other stuff I suggested that he start a new thread to explore this idea of his. That's why my name comes into his opening post.)

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: UB Ed
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 08:42 AM

Jon, a noble effort.

I know there have been alot of heartache threads lately. And to be honest, I just don't get it. It seems alot of us don't have the "proper" perspective here, and it seems a shame for you to donate 40 MB to encourage folks to continue to misbehave.

One reality I think is particlarly important is that there is no such thing as a perfect world. As such, those of us on this forum who behave as if there is are out of line. We may not have realistic expectations. Does that argue the forum should be changed to accommodate these unrealistic expectations? I think not.

If we accept the imperfect world theory, we are then ready to move on to the fact that some people were just not brought up right. Each of us in everyday life experiences incivility. When confronted with that we either refuse to acknowledge it, or respond (hopefully in a civil fashion). Why should we feel this forum is different?

One response to incivility is to return incivility. I suggest, however, that the better response is to adopt a Joe Offer type of Miss Manners response; reply courteously or not at all.

Previous threads provide the analogy that such behavior wouldn't be tolerated in your home. While I agree, it is important to realize the strength of the 'Cat is its easy access to the international community via the internet. This is not a "home"; its merely a section of a busy railroad station where some folks will want to linger, some will ignore and others will thro stones. We should expect that.

Thats not to say its unacceptable for a 'Catter to question another. Maybe a prayer circle wasn't in the original concept, but here it is. Its ok for a 'Catter to comment that a prayer circle is not appropraite. It is also ok for those in that thread to respond civiliy and then continue on. What should never be ok is to drop into discourteous exchange. Don't do it and, if you see it, don't respond.

You can tell what you want to read. If the threads are populated by only those who genuinely want to be in them, there would be no problem.

Trolls and flames? For the love of God, can't we rise above that? They only can survive if you feed em.

Another beauty of this forum is the technology behind it. This is a straightforward discussion area providing alot more user latitude than others. My sense is that's why its so attractive to a wider group of folks.

It is sad if we've lost some valuable members because of offense taken. I hope they continue to linger in the background and will one day return to participate in the discussions of interest to them.

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 08:47 AM

McGrath, I don't need to create categories but it is a feature of the forum design I have chosen and thought it may be useful.

As for creating separate forums, yes I need to this if this thing is to work as an area for special interests. It enables those areas to be defined and have a specific moderator or person responsible for that area.

I don't like the idea of just drop in there and post anything on any subject as the idea is to cater for specialist areas - could be anything - say a Mudcat camera club...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 09:01 AM

Sounds like a good idea Jon - I suspect it will take a little time to get used to it being available - and that usage will be sporadic as special interests flare and cycle...

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 09:45 AM

Can you create a catagory for just music related stuff....HA HA HA (just kidding...really...I'm just kidding...)

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:11 PM

I think this is a good idea, and jon is very kind to let people use his forum

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM

Generous of Jon, and it would be a tremendous act of good will to post healing threads there...

That is, if the healers are truly interested in healing for the good of all, and not just themselves and their supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:43 PM

I have just seen Jons forum, I am suprised nobody else has visited it yet, it is good there is forums about gardening, prayers and good thoughts for people of all religions/beliefs.john

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 02:50 PM

John, all that is there is an example layout. The forums in question may or may not exist depending on who if anyone is interested in starting a fourm there.The thing is functional as it stands though and if anyone felt like posting they could do although the forums themselves may end up getting wiped out.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 03:01 PM

That looks really good, Jon. I like the design; it's very elegant. Thank you,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 03:01 PM

Cheers Jon, I have just posted to one of the threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 03:11 PM

Thanks kat and John.

Re the design kat, I had a look at a few free ASP/Acess database forums and this one looked to me the most elegant and most suited to my purpose. There may be a few problems with it but at least with ASP, I can program and test changes at home if needs arise.

Anyway, I'm off to Norwich for a session now - the highlight of my week!

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: UB Ed
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 03:35 PM

I'm sorry. Did I post to the wrong thread? Or has this simply been hashed to death elsewhere?

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Llanfair
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:02 PM

I've started the gardening one, Jon, thanks.
Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:03 PM

Beautiful site, Jon. I haven't signed up yet, but I will. Now I have to think of a gardening question or something. I don't have a garden right now, so it might take me a little time, but I'll give it my best shot. ;-)

UB Ed, I think Jon is just being the generous, caring person that he is, and he has given us an option that we can use, or not, as we wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 05:52 PM

Just been there. Thanks Jon for giving us this annexe. I tried to post a message twice and each time it said I was invalid, though I'd registered and given it a password and all.

Teething problems.Maybe an FAQ would help for people like me who get this kind of thing wrong more often than not.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 06:34 PM

McGrath-The same thing happened to me but my message turned out ok, maybe you could try again.john

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:47 PM

McGrath, your registration didn't get through. You are right about teething problems of course - I've just taken a forum as is and don't really know how it works or any bugs myself. I will update the main page with an email link to me in the hope I can solve any problems preventing people posting. A FAQ will follow if it looks like the idea will take off.

Ed, sorry, I just want to give things a try and see if they help in any way or are taken up on. For that reason, I don't really want to be responding to "political" posts of any type in this thread.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:48 PM

Clearly you've got a pretty wide definition of "political" Jon. Would that kind of thing really be out of place on your annexe to Mudcat?

Though I'm not disagreeing that focusing attention for a bit on the nuts and bolts rather than on discussion about more theoretical issues makes sense sometimes, and this thread is maybe one of those times.

If you felt a bit ignored Ed, I think it's just that the people posting on this thread seem to have been focusing attention on an interesting new present.

I'd see what Jon is doing here as an attempt to light a candle rather than curse the darkness, as the saying goes. Of course, as is the way with candles, it could always blow out, but we'll just have to see. And maybe use it to help it keep alight while people decide how it fits in, and whether it fills a useful role. Which I think it could.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 05:45 AM

McGrath, I' not really sure what will end up fitting in the annex. Really I'm hoping that others may wish to play the moderator/admin/joeclone role on each specialist area and I think as these areas do have specific focus (or at least that's how I see it working), it would be a good idea to try to keep them reasonably relavant to the area concerned. I would hope though that any moderator is willing to allow differences of opinions or challenges to views, not censor a post because they don't like the view, the language or tone of a response, etc. To do otherwise would IMO be breaking an important principle at Mudcat, and a principle that I believe is essential for a healthy forum.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 08:35 AM

I was just wondering whether you were using the same meaning of "political" in your first post at the start of the thread, and in your later comment about Ed's post, and I rather thought you probably weren't.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 08:59 AM

OK, not sure if that means you understood me or not. I wasn't using the same meaning of "political" in both posts. You were right in your assement that I'm trying to keep this thread to the "new present" and not get involved in other issues.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: UB Ed
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 09:44 AM

Well, that's all well and good folks. Believe you me, I think Jon is being amazingly generous. I guess I'm just not understanding why there are any problems on the Mudcat. And that being said, I guess I really don't need to understand (maybe no one can understand). In my simple view, it seems there's plenty of room on the 'Cat fro all and that exercising common sense and courtesy would take care of the "bad feelings."

Good luck with the experiment!

Carol, you need to get a little garden. Start one in one of your windows! One of the best gardening questions is when best to prune?

Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: UB Ed
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 09:47 AM

Oops...Should have said plenty of room FOR all...

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 02:16 PM

Good job Jon! I have bookmarked it to check in again later. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:27 PM

Thanks UB Ed. I like prune juice, but I'm not too big on prunes. I do have house plants though ;-)

I have to say that my experience of posting to Jon's forum was very different than my experience of posting here. Not better... just different. I felt free to be as boring and technical as I wanted, and at great length, about a very specific subject. It was fun. And I like that I didn't have to go to a forum/site where I don't know anybody in order to do it.

Now, are there any botanists or other knowlegable people out there who want to try to answer my question?

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 05:44 PM

I have seen Jons forunm, it is nice. I also think Jon was very genorous, he saw something on Mudcat that some people didn't like, and he spent his own time and money to offer an alternative.Lets hope his forum is the sucsess it deserves to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:15 PM

Three cheers for Jon! Hip-hip-hooray! Hip-hip-hooray! Hip-hip-hooray!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Charcloth
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 11:49 PM

Good deal! Thanks Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 11:55 PM

Well Heather's already discovered the "growing stuff" stuff, and that sure interests her more than Child ballads.

Thumbs up Jon.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:34 AM

John, I'm not sure I like the word "alternative" - I think I prefer "additional area" but thanks anyway and thanks all. It of course remains to be seen weter it will prove useful in the longer term.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 01:02 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:16 PM

Only posting here as John in Hull's refresh was a little untimely. In case anyone tried as a result of the refresh, I am back up now. My web space provider went down about an hour before John's refresh - I couldn't even access own web pages let alone mine.

They are only up and running again now (say within the last hr). Not a lot I can do about that... I had an 8 hr downtime before starting this thread that only affected my site (I mean their pages were availible and anything that didn't involve ODBC on my site was accessible - pratically nothing - the forum can't work without it) the day before starting this thread and now this. I just hope this is not typical of thier service.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:26 AM

It seems to be down, again, now, Jon. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:39 PM

Yes I know kat, it is the same one as I had before announcing the pages in this thread. This time I reported it at 20:18 my time last night and still haven't had a response. The time before, I had no reply to the email but the thing cured itself.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:49 PM

Oh, sorry, Jon. I hope you hear from them soon. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:50 PM

Well if regulars on the Cat have got used to the idea that every now and then the Gremlins stop them getting through. So you wouldn't be authentic if you didn't have a few crashes.

In fact, if people are sensible, they'll have bookmarked your site, Jon, and the next time there's an extended interruption here you'll be crowded out with refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:01 PM

Gosh this looks just like MSAccess at my previous job. I got very good at running "repair database" every time our LAN burped, hiccupped, went down, or someone looked at it funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:45 PM

I wish that was the answer Jeri. I can transfer my database to and fro my web space via FTP. I have transferred the database to my PC and my local copy of the forum pages runs quite happily using it. The DSN settings for my web space are the same as when the forum was working.

I can only guess that it must be something that needs re-setting their end but as yet, I have been unable to get a reponse from them. I didn't get a reply the first time it happened but things mysteriously came right after about 8 hrs.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:48 PM

It's just come back again. No email to explain why yet.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Charcloth
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:27 PM

I would be nice if there was a permanent reference to it at the top of the forum or some kind of link thing so folks would know it is there. After some time folks are likely to forget about the new forum

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:35 PM

Yes, I agree that would make sense in time-- but I would object to that until it has been thoroughly tested by anyone who cares to try it, and until a sort of Mudcat Consensus develops that this is a way people are willing to go, without a lot of upset. No I do NOT want to try to please everyone-- but a solution designed to help ease upset will not be a viable solution if it causes more than it helps.

I also think we should wait for full implementation of this one possible approach until we see the new Mudcat design and the chat feature planned for inclusion. It may be that once we see these, we may think of other more elegant solutions, or that Jon will want to adapt his approach somewhat to work with the new Mudcat.

I would also like to remind people that these sorts of off-Cat-forum possibilities have been there all along-- not necessarily limited to Mudcat members, but there is no shortage of forums all over the Net, and at least as far as prayer matters are concerned, the people I have been working with did not want to go that route.

I would also point out that not everyone is going to be pleased at an option that is reserved for Mudcat members. All the cookie debates, now times two forums?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:33 PM

Susan, I agree in that it is too early - it is an experiment - we have to wait and see what happens.

Re Mudcat changes, you may be better informed than me but I'm not aware of anything forum wise that is likely to try what I am trying (I wouldn't have bothered if I was). As far as I'm aware, the chat room is a real time chat room, I think a text based program written in Java which would provide a different and again perhaps valuable addition.

I simply don't understand your last paragraph but on a technical level, both Mudcat and my site do use cookies and both may be of concern to users. If my site proves useful I will make some changes as I'm not happy with the current solution but allowing for that, there are and probably always will be differences between Mudcat's and my site's application that may make the topic worthy of discussion as separate issues on both sites.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:48 PM

Just in case I've frightened anyone. Cookies are useful things. The fundamental problem is that HTTP is stateless - a little extra information is needed to make a site like this work as well as it does for members.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:57 PM

Susan=I agree you cannot please everyone, as for cookies, well people use them here so I can't really see a problem. I think if people use Jon's forum, that is good, it proves there was a demand for it, if only a few people use it he is likely to close it, which is fair enough.I know some people are not happy with the non music stuff on Mudcat, and I think Jon has kindly provided an additional area for for this kind of thing, let's hope it is a sucsess.Like I said, it is hard to please everyone, somebody might go to Jon's forum, and say "Why is there nothing about sport?" or whatever.cheers.john

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 07:24 PM

What I meant about my cookie comment is simply that Mudcat is open to all, member or not, cookie'd or not. Jon's forum is not open to all, currently. I do not state this based on any assumptions or feelings about why Jon set it up that way... I have not asked him why, and frankly it's up to him and I don't give a tinker's dang.

In fact I would probably choose to set up a prayer forum that way myself if I did one, or have some other way of being sure who people are, because of the personal nature of the material shared in it and my long and effective experience dealing with confidentiality issues from just about any angle you'd care to name. But I respect what Max has created too much to casually make something that I fear would pull people away from what Max means this place to be.

In any event, my lack of being able to decide things like that has been one reason I have not pushed the Prayer Chain people to go to something like this. (It is all set up, BTW, as I have said in the past, complete with introductory posts starting some get-acquainted threads and laying out basic policy.) I just never said, OK, this is how I am wiling to do the prayer thing from now on, let's move over there and out of e-maill-- partly because I could not decide whether to throw it wide open, or what. And the place I happened to set it up requires at least an MSN Passport, to get in, even if I do not close the site to pre-registering members-- I did not know at the time how people would feel about that. There is another place I could move those posts but right now, I care more about keeping life simple and doing MUSIC, MUSIC, MUSIC. And the prayer chain-- no one in it complains!! *G*

But I DO think people (some people) will be likely to make an issue of membership requirements at Jon's forum, at some point. Probably when it starts to do well, that's when the nay-saying will kick in, and then we will have people on the defensive in TWO places. See?

Now please take the following in the spirit in which it is meant. I would really, REALLY appreciate people saying what they think, for themselves, and not focusing on what I may have said as a way of getting at your own thinking. Agreeing or disagreeing with me-- it's just not as valuable as your own precious and creative thinking about things freely from your own view. I am bringing this up because it tends to happen so much-- and it causes me to post less and less about what I think about much of anything. I get to be like some kind of weird magnet. These days, when something starts to be too much about me, I head for the hills.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 07:46 PM

Welcome back Susan,

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Experimental Forum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 08:00 PM

I like feeling there are other places around where I can hang out and exchange views with some familiar people. In both worlds, 3D and virtual.