Unfriendly folk musicians in pubs

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: AliUK
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 05:33 PM

McGrath, weeeeel, as a timorous newcomer waaaaaaaaaaay back when ( I was 17 when I first stepped through the bevveled glass doors of a folk club) i understood exactly what newcomers went through. That's why with the 'Ogre"there was a policy towards non-pretenciousness. Also we had PAs, so that helped a lot. We don't need folk clubs here in Brazil as traditional music is a living thing out here, music is the lifeblood and it all loops back into the popular music. But I am currently teaching at an Americam EFL school and the theme this semester is Jazz, and they seem quite keen to set up a music club with the onus on american music so I'm dusting off my Dylan and Guthrie and some of dem dere blues.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 07:07 PM

That would have been the second club, not the first one that died the death? Sounds good.

I didn't mean to jump down your throat AliUK, if it felt like that. I get nervous about anything that threatens to freeze out timorous newcomers. (Which doesn't just mean young performers - getting back into the swing of it after years away can be the scariest thing of all - here is a song about that.)

Anything resembling folk clubs in Brazil? Maybe that should be another thread though.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: AliUK
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 05:51 PM

Dear Mr. McGrath, the club was Luton Folk club, not too many miles away from you, that segued into The Wild Ogre ( and survived about 2 years after I moved out here to Brazil. I just read my posting and due to uncommon haste I realised that I hadn't put in what I really wanted to say. Many of the performers that came to the club where first time performers ( not just musicians and singers, but poets and comedians as well). They all got a good listening to, what I was trying to get at was that no one turned their backs on them, no one ( and I mean NO ONE) was turned away ( things sometimes went on until the early hours. This was an arts centre with a bar and not a pub). The only difference was on guest night, which were kept to a minimum. When the floor spots were more organised.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,janey
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 01:44 PM

i can't believe all this; some people in folk sessions are boring miserable old gits and some are a right laugh. that's just the way it is. i always find that if you go to a session or a club with the right attitude and a bit of a grin on your face there will normally be someone who responds and makes you feel welcome. if there's no one like that then do you want to be there anyway? go and have a kebab instead. ps whitby folk week was great everyone dead friendly until i got the flu.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 09:19 PM

True enough, that's a different variety again. The more you think of it, the more complicated it all gets. The one thread that goes through all of them is having proper respect for the situation, and for the other people involved. And in a strange place, observe what's going on, and never be afraid to ask if you aren't clear.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 06:54 PM

McGrath, I agree with your assessment but there are of course situations such as an Irish society do I try to get to once a month where the musicians and the music is wanted as opposed to the bar where people are just being tolerant towards them but the night is still a social event with music rather than a session. It's a good night too as long as people expect and understand (and can cope with) the more noisy (although very friendly) environment.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 02:02 PM

That's a whole different thing from the question of unwanted musical or vocal accompaniment.

If people don't quieten down and listen to a singer who is not that loud or who is not that confident, that is not within my definition of a "friendly atmosphere."

Control freaks can screw up a club or a session. But so can bad-mannered oafs who don't care about music and other people. Wanting to hear nothing but the sound of their own voice isn't limited to singers - it's more typical of the loudmouths who prop up the bar in some places.

I think there's a difference between two situations - one is where a bar that is primarily a talking socialising place is tolerant about having a few musicians in the corner. The other is where there is a full-fledged session, and most people are listening. In the first case it's unfair to expect quiet, so you just have to bellow a bit. But the second case quiet for songs is good manners and to be expected of anyone with good manners.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,AliUK
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 01:45 PM

I agree with the guy from Newfoundland. This "preciousness"of clubs and sessions is what kills music. I was on the comitee of one such club that died ( people had to be quiet, we had to know you before you got a spot, no ne joined in) and it died a slow and embarrasing death. I then set up another club ( I was invited to by an arts association) where you could talk smoke, join in, a club with a friendly atmosphere. If the performer was good, usually people would shut up and apprediate the music or song, if not then 'Bye, Bye may Brudder." Which I actually felt was more the way it should be.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 05:38 AM

"session etiquette" is just supposed to be a handy way of summing up "common sense, good manners and consideration for others". All of which include newcomers paying respect to the customs of the place, and regulars paying respect to the needs of newcomers.

Yes - Figgy Duff is still remembered in Harlow. Unfortunately I missed the occasion when this strange bunch of Newefoundlanders suddenly emerged and shook everyone up. Send us some more.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 05:32 AM

Oh blimey!

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 05:25 AM

Now I'm confused. *Smoles*

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 04:59 AM

Shambles I'm confused now. Surely if the session ettiquette is set up by people of CS, GM & CFO then that becomes the framework in which the session operates and therefor should guard against the wilder excesses of those with lesser degrees of the 'three virtues' (saves typing)?
So it would only allow infliction of the lack thereof if the session were set up by (or controled by) the fiendishly unvirtuous? - in which case the session would be naff & would probably die?
The only other thing to do is to exclude people without the 'three virtues' and excluding people is what we want to avoid.

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Frank Maher
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 10:11 PM

Yes!Memorial University of Newfoundland has a Campus in Old Harlow..I Played There on a Couple of Occasions when I Played with the Figgy Duff Band...The People in Old Harlow are Wonderful!!!!!

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

But Shambles - not everybody has common sense, good manners and consideration for others. Hence the need for some sort of artificial structure or ettiquette.

But surely 'session ettiquiette' should never be seen as a replacement for common sense, good manners and consideration for others?

If you don't have these qualities, no ammount of 'session ettiquette' will disguise the fact and hiding behind the term, only allows these people to inflict their lack of common sense, good manners and consideration for others on everyone else.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 11:03 AM

Not just Thursday but it'll do for starters.
Sorry bout the minor rant, I'd just finished a 10 hour waking night duty & I'm working another tonight. Roll on tomorrow lunchtime.
Jude

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 09:41 AM

But Shambles - not everybody has common sense, good manners and consideration for others. Hence the need for some sort of artificial structure or ettiquette.

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:53 AM

This so-called 'session etiquette' is just a term for some musicians to justify being rude and self-important.

Al that is needed is common sense, good manners and consideration for others.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Bunny
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:42 AM

Jude L. If you had been able to see my face as I was typing you would have noticed that my tounge was placed firmly in my cheek.My point is I suppose that some folkies appear to take thamselves a little too seriously. I am new to the session scene, having been introduced by my husband( Born again scouser) and I am a singer. However I have found the so called 'session etiquette' something of a turn off. Maybe I'm just too much of a disco chick.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:40 AM

Jude - just on Thursday? Will you be sleeping it off on Fri Sat Sun & Mon?

kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:31 AM

No Chris, it was Norwich way.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:03 AM

Bunny you appear to have completely missed the points I was making:
1) there is a difference in style between singing with or without instruments, just as there is a difference in style of playing instruments without the restrictions of accompanying a singer
2) different types of song invite/expect different levels of (singing) participation, e.g. songs with a chorus or refrain, ballad or shanty 3) far from it being due to overinflated self importance, there is recognition that a singer can be so thrown by someone's joining in where they are not expected that the singer may find it difficult to carry on with the song at all . (Joan Byaz and her amp may be unfazed but not everyone is that confident and I wonder how she would feel about a fiddle playing a slightly different tune louder than she was singing!)
Finally as I said in my previous post, appreciation and manners - appreciation of what is apt, and manners to only join in where apt. Jude - who intends to get suitably drunk and thoroughly enjoy lots of chorus songs at Towersey on Thursday.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 10:12 PM

Some of you should visit Hull, there is a good folk session every night exept Saturday, and every session I have ever been to has been really friendly.Maybe that's why there is so many folkies & Mudcatters in hull. :-)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser0
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 05:27 PM

Sorry, Jon. Just messin'.

Sounds good, by the way. Not round Liverpool way, is it, by any chance?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:58 PM

Sorry, I screwed up that link to my website. Here goes again.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:55 PM

And Newfoundland's St John's University even has the good sense to have an overseas campus here in Harlow! (But there never seem to be any musician students, or if there are, they keep out of the way of us locals. Which ius a shame, they'd be very welcome. And if they want to find out what's on, they can visit

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:55 PM

Is there a bus?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Frank Maher
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:48 PM

If You want a Friendly Atmosphere,come to Newfoundland... You can Play anything,Sing anything,Butt in Anytime.. If You Sing out of Tune,We'll Tune the Instruments to Suit Your Voice...No Stress,no Petty Jelously,just the Love of Music and Musicians...We even allow Bodhrans:-))

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:15 PM

Oh well, BAS, I'm off to a session in about an hour and you'll be pleased to know I won't be singing it or singing anything for that matter. Just Irish music played on pipes, flutes, fiddles, guitar, bazouki (at least that's the regular crowd) and me rattling along on the banjo. It's the best night of the week for me.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:49 PM

When I talk about unaccompanied and joining in or not , to me that's musical instruments joining in I'm referring to. The only occasion I've ever come across the house rule was don't join in the chorus was in a folk singing contest - and even there, it had to be formally stated.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:37 PM

Johnny Jump Up??? Jesus.....

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:30 PM

In most of the mostly instrumental sessions I go to, the "rule" (which happens to be the way I prefer things) is, if someone starts a tune, it is a cue for everybody to join it but if someone starts a song no one joins in unless asked unless of course the song is a chorus song - I'd be very dissapointed if no one joined in if I sang Johnny Jump Up for example.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:18 PM

Some places the informal house rule is people join in playing unless they've been told not to, others it's the other way round. I think I prefer the former, but either way works fine.

Confusion arises if people misunderstand which way it is. But that only happens if they haven't bothered to find out, by asking or observing.

And of course every now and again you're going to run into someone who is totally socially inept, like the one rock chick tangled with.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Rich (bodhránai gan cookie)
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 12:38 PM

Regarding singing along with Joan Baez, chances are, she had a PA system and monitors. I've yet to play in a session where these are provided. There have been a few players at sessions in recent memory, where I'd have taken this or that player out of my monitor mix, had it been an option.

I'm getting ready to head home from a visit to Chicago. While here, I played a a number of sessions, a couple of which I've played before. There was one that was absolutely remarkable last year, before people found out about it. After about a half hour of it this year, I found myself staying only out of courtesy to the session host who'd invited me. It's really sunk. It only takes one or two loud players playing out of time to tank an otherwise good session.
I play the instrument that most people find it easy to be unfriendly to, and barring being introduced by a regular, I often get a few looks until people see that I'm not "one of those bodhrán-owners" and that I can play quietly in time, and trade off with other percussionists. I can't say I blame the regulars of a given session for not throwing down the red carpet. Chances are they've been stung by being too friendly before.

Rich

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:25 PM

I think the onus would best be on others to wait for a cue from the singer, therefore making it unnecessary for the singer to say "don't accompany." If that is understood by all attending, no problem. getting that understood to a newcomer is something else, hopefully to be dealt with tactfully.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:25 PM

So... the discussion has veered from unfriendly folk musicians in pubs to session ettiquette - violations of which result in unfriendly folk musicians.

Would it suffice to say that if you are not well versed in the style of the tune/song being presented you sit tight and appreciate it? If you are well versed, and can lend a bit of support, can you be subtle in requesting to join in? Is the onus on the person desiring to join another in making music on a particular song/tune or should the lead/soloist be put in a position of saying "I'm doing this solo so don't think of joining in or else"?

Finally, my PERSONAL pet peeve, non-performing observers attempting to clap in time with the tune, and not quite being there. (One session I was in, a rather intoxicated fellow managed to clap EXACTLY 1/16 note off the beat - I doubt he could do it when sober.)

Regards -

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:19 PM

Now I know why this is called a "thread."

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:44 AM

Aha!!!! So now we have unwanted accompanying Singers??
The plot thickens.
Singers? who needs 'em....

And do these Singers ever perform unaccompanied? And if anyone joins in do they get needled?
Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: forty two
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:35 AM

Shambles - yes I agree we're not too far apart. Me too, I don't mind if anyone joins in.

No not true!! In my local there are old pedal operated Singer sewing machine tables and sometimes someone pedals away to the beat squeaking the mechanism. It's annoying and very hard to keep in beat!!

Surely, people, we must agree that Singer sewing machines are not musical instruments LOL

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM

Shambles - I was posting at same time as you, so my reference to control freaks is coincidental & not related to yours - just in case confusion ensues......

The CF to whom you refer was probably labouring under the delusion that he/she was being helpful encouraging and complimenting the poor embarrassed guy. I've seen similar happen a few times. It can be quite funny, so long as all the musicians see the funny side.
At a festival campsite recently someone gave feedback the next day on what they'd overheard of a bunch of people singing & playing. They pointed out who they thought was good & who was bad etc, and had completely missed the point that it had been a bunch of people enjoying themselves & that relative abilities hadn't been an issue.
- sort of related I think - but maybe a bit drifty, sorry.

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:06 AM

Bunny - nobody is being self-important. Its all a question of preferences, the prevailing mood of a session, etc. Having put in some effort to prepare the presentation of a song its not unreasonable to want to present it that way. As various people have said, it can be offputting for someone to join in unexpectedly, and folk is full of variations - they may not join in with the same variation. It can be particularly offputting to people who are new to performing.
Nobody is saying that joining in should be discouraged generally - however we would like to be able to express a preference. If people ignore that & join in anyway then its not the end of the world & I'm sure most singers would accept it with good grace at the time - we don't want to be control freaks.
I believe that singers should tolerate the occasional unexpected accompaniment & also that participants should tolerate the occasional adamant soloist. Most times it just kind of works itself out without anyone having to get uptight.
Also - Joan Baez is very experienced and gets plenty of chances to shine solo - its not a very fair comparison.

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:53 AM

Forty Two

I don't think we are too far apart.

No matter how hard you may work on developing it, I think that you are fortunate to be gifted with the ability to make music. The more humility you show and the more generous you are to those that may not share your ability, and who may appreciate yours, the more friendly you will appear.

The original post was from a fellow musician, not a member of the public but it matters not. The best sessions, in my opinion are those that involve as many folk as possible. If that just means a members of the public, clapping along, I would consider those to be a musician anyway.

Anyone who makes music is a musician.

When musicians think that they are more important than others, and more important than the music, they do themselves and music a disservice and will be in danger of being perceived as unfriendly, with some justification.

Why hold, what is in effect a mutual back-slapping exercise in a public place? Do you need the public there, so they can feel excluded or just to admire ones brilliance?

The public can be difficult, I know but you are inflicting yourselves on their night out. They have not asked you to play, paid for or even come to hear you at all.

You do get some members of the public who are a pain in the bum however. Have you come across the control freak, who will after a few drinks insist on organising who and what will be played? The most recent one stopped the music and rounded in and pointed at one individual who was quite happy just playing along in the background, and insisted that he played a tune on his own. This was much to the discomfort of this individual and caused him and everyone else present much embarrassment.

Maybe it is possible that you can appear too friendly?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,bunny
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:27 AM

I went to see Joan Baez a while back and she didn't mind people singing along with her. Do you not think you are bit a tiny bit self important- after all you ar singign in a pub not performing brain surgery. Perhaps you should have a couple of drinks dear, and relax a little.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: JudeL
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 06:48 AM

If you normally sing unaccompanied by instruments it can be very offputting to have someone suddenly join in uninvited. When you sing without instruments you are free to adjust the phrasing, timing, tone , you can pitch it to suit the song and voice and even vary this within the song as needed to convey emphasis and meaning. I make the distinction of singing unaccompanied by instruments because in many singarounds singers tend to choose mainly songs with a chorus or refrain to enable others to join them for that part of the song. Chosing to sing without instruments is not precious but it is a different type of singing, just as there are different styles of playing instruments. In the end it all comes down to freedom, appreciation, consideration and most of all manners. IMHO
Jude

BTW thanks Deni

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: forty two
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:44 AM

Shambles, I still defend my stand that sessions are for the musicians - and the music of course. There is no conceit in this at all. There is a friendship between sessioning musicians which will involve swapping of tunes or talking about tunes and songs. There is the craic that happens between sets and all that happens in the time scale that the session sets itself. Now all of this does tend to exclude the punter in the pub. Again, it might be read as unfriendliness. But to be fair, it's not. Is it?

Now if you put a mike in amongst the muscians that casts a totally different light on the subject because that then implies public entertainment. And in that case, yes I would agree with you, that would be conceit. But that is not a true session in the terms that I have known them for many years.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: toadfrog
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:22 PM

I second everything Chanteyranger just said. Chanteyranger runs a reasonably taut ship. Basically, there have to be some underlying rules and expectations, or there are going to be problems of that kind. I remeber trying to sing and play "Bourgeois Blues" at the San Francisco Folk Club, once, and had to stop in the middle, and say:

"Gee, if you want to join in, that's fine, but please try to stay in the same rythm I am in." That's the last time I attended that club, and the last time I played a guitar in public.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:36 AM

Brendy said:

".....accompanied by this other cove, who insisted on putting an A7 in everywhere I was putting the proper AMINOR7 in. He also exaggerated the rhythm; playing, as he was with one of those awful three cornered plectrums, that turned every stroke into a declaration of war.

Me again:

I've been the recipient of this kind of "help" a few times. The guitarist with 'no ear, and no manners has quickly found out that my mellow 'live and let live philosophy' disappears quickly when I'm around idiots.

Brendy also said:

"Having people join in, is fine; and Dezy hadn't heard the song before. But he LISTENED to what was going on, and tempered his playing to suit.".

Me again:

God bless Dezy.

Rick

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:59 AM

Stick at it. If you mean business, people will soon recognise that. Besides, sessions aren't therapy. It's not about you

Well said and welcome....Sessions (even the serious and ernest ones Chis B refers to) are not for musicians, they are for music...

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:48 AM

Interesting site. I just came across it inadvertently and I haven't had time to check out all the messages but it seems to me that there are a lot of ideas and sentiments being expressed that it would be nice to hear expressed and discussed at sessions themselves. Of course, that never happens for a number of reasons. Time considerations, of course, plus the fact that most of the people present are there to play and not philosophise about the meaning of life, music, the price of cheese etc.

I spent nearly 15 years playing in the same session in London most Sundays. I learnt a hell of a lot there and got the chance to play and learn a lot of music I probably would never have learnt otherwise. However, it did take time to get to know some of the people who played there, not because people were unfriendly but it's in the nature of traditional music that a lot of the people who play it are very intense and serious about what they do and many of them (us? me?) heave spent a lot of their formative years learning and practicing on their own. So it often takes time to settle in and become accepted, especially if you play guitar because, after all, there are lots of them out there and unlike 'melody' instruments like fiddles or flutes there are only so many guitars (or bodhrans) that any 'serious' instrumental session can support before it all gets a bit bangy and strummy.

Stick at it. If you mean business, people will soon recognise that. Besides, sessions aren't therapy. It's not about you. If you make friends, that's a bonus and it'll probably happen in its own time anyway. But in my experience, as long as you get off on the music, it doesn't really matter what the people are like - unless you don't have any mates.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 11:59 PM

I think McGrath and Peg have hit the nail on the head. The bottom line here is: singer's choice. If you're not sure if you're instrumental or vocal accompaniment would be welcomed, best to sit it out and listen to the singer, unless the singer has signalled that accompaniment is welcome. With a chantey sing, of course, (nice to read that, Melani) singing on the choruses is expected and encouraged, and there is etiquette to be followed there, too - again, being sensitive to the wishes of whoever's leading a song, if they express any - to name an ever-important one.

Jon, I agree about too many solos. Sensitivity should run both ways at sessions.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Peg
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 01:00 PM

Jon;

I agree with what you say re: anyone "insisting" on more solos; this is not appropriate at a primarily instrumental sessiun, any more than it would be for an instrumentalist to insist on more tunes at a singers' sessiun; this all comes down to mutual respect and being flexible with what shape a sessun has. Most instrumental sessiuns want to play together; the occasional solo or song is just to add some variety and hopefully enhance the traditional color of the sessiun...

I also agree that audience members are every bit as important to consider as thos eplaying; then again soem audience members are not the least bit interested int he music, they are just there to drnk, or watch the match, etc.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:34 AM

To me the idea that the music is essentially for musicians, when it IS in public place is pure conceit. The complaint here however is not coming from a "punter" but from a fellow musician........

I disagree shambles. Sessions are generally set up by musicians (including singers) for musicians and have the permission of the landlord to use a part of his/her pub for that purpose which is not public entertainment in a performance type way. One would hope that other musicians are welcomed and that any others in the room feel comfortable, welclome and enjoy the music but those others are IMO incedental to the session.

How do other events in public houses like darts matches -compare? Surely the spectators are incidental to the match, a bit of hush may be called by the teams, etc. or maybe as there is a dartboard hanging in a public place... no it just gets silly.

McGrath I agree with what you say. The only thing that bugs me in sessions at least the mostly instrumental ones I enjoy is some singers don't seem to be able to see that when they take a song and are given the respect you mentioned, they are taking a solo spot. It can get a little tedious when a group of people are trying to do stuff everyone can join in with which is the primary reason for being there that someone keeps insisting on more solos.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Peg
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:11 AM

well, speaking as someone whose instrument is her voice, and keeping in mind that singing is quite simply a quieter sound than a fiddle or flute or drum or accordion or bouzouki or banjo or mandolin or pennywhistle, I do not think it is unreasonable that the other musicians take a break and sit silently when an unaccompanied singer does a song. I am more comfortable in song only sessiuns but there aren't many of them But when I attend an instrumental sessiun, I find I am a LOT more comfortable if there is someone I know there who KNOWS I am a singer and who just might ASK me to sing (thereby letting the other instrumentalists know that at least one of their number thinks my song might be worthy of a few monents of silence), or someone I might feel comfortable asking if a song would be welcome.

Otherwise I sit and listen, or play my drum or whistle if I have it with me. Sometimes an instrumentalist will apologize that the vibe of the sessiun that night does not seem conducive to a song and that maybe it will settle down and that will be appropriate (I appreciate that consideration, because it means this person is thinking of soemone else's feelinsg and the success of the sessiun--sometimes they say this before the subject of a song is broached, sometimes in answer to a query).

As for instruments or voices accompanying an unaccompanied singer; well, under some circumstances this is acceptable. usually not, because usually those who choose to jump in and accompany a solo singer either don't know the song and just want to be part of a soft sound so they can stand out, or they want to sing harmony and are no good at it but feel the need to practic ewith you with no regard for your tempo or sometimes even the KEY you are singing in.

BUT when an instrumentalist plays softly and really enhances the solo (after waiting to see if this is a song which would do well with bit of accompaniment; to just jump in without seeing where the singer is going in term sof an irregular, free-form tempo or recitative style is rude I think), it can be lovely.

Similarly, if someone starts to sing harmony and does it WELL and in a way which does not overshadow the soloist (I remember Animaterra adding some GORGEOUS harmonies to a song I did at a Mudcat gethering; then when I did a song later she started to sing along, then figured out it probably would not work as well, owing to the darkness of the song and the rather inscrutable rhythm I was using, and respectfully listened to the rest of it. Now that is someone who is very talented but respectful enough to know when she is adding something and when she could get more out of the experience by listening), then that can also be lovely. And some song sessiuns seem to want singers to sing songs with choruses that everyone can sing along on. Which can be nice (Old Songs seemed to be like this), but why not allow a singer once in a while to sing completely alone if their song calls for it?

Of course one can sing something obscure that no one knows and probably won't have to worry about anyone trying to sing along (I know at least one instrumentalist in Boston who does this a lot with tunes no one has heard of, and I swear it is so he can play solo!); then again there was a woman who used to come to the singers' club who would sing these off-key arpeggio type things to WHATEVER anyone was singing! Most annoying...

I think awareness and some modicum of sensitivity is what is called for...and trying to monitor one's own ego and what part it serves, if things are not going as one likes them to...

my opinion, for what it is worth,

Peg

kick-ass singer, on occasion ;)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 09:36 AM

There's nothing "precious" in singing without an instrumental accompaniment -

The 'preciousness' I was referring to was the expectation that a group of people gathered to make music together should not be able to do this because the individual singers/players insist on 'performing' and useing them only as an audience.

When folk insist on doing this, at such a gathering, I would just like them to recognise that if everyone present insisted on doing the same thing, there would not be any time to make music together, which is after all the object at these affairs?

It does not seem to be generally recognised that it is only the other people not execising this right, that enables others to 'perform' to them.

As Bert said earlier I wonder how many of these people, sometimes after talking all through the ensemble music, then leave after doing 'their spot'?

There are places where 'performing' informally in turn, in this fashion, is the object of the evening but not all such gatherings should be turned in to these....

Nor should these be turned into 'making music together' sessions.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 09:30 AM

Exactly what I wanted to say, McG, expressed more clearly than I could have. Thank you.

Noreen

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 08:28 AM

Sessions are for musicians - and singers are musicians just as much as anyone with a manufactured instrument, they are just using a different instrument. Just about all good sessions I have ever been to some of the time there'll be a person either singing or playing a tune on their own.

That may be because they are so good, or doing something so difficult, people prefer not to try to join in and risk spoiling it; sometimes it's because the person isn't sure enough of what they are doing to welcome the distraction of an accompaniment; sometimes it's because it's an unfamiliar tune, and the rest have the common sense to listen to it a bit before they feel ready to come in.

Sometimes it's a way of giving respect to a song - typically in an Irish session when someone with a small voice sings a sean nos song.

There's nothing "precious" in singing without an instrumental accompaniment - it's the first and most straightforward and natural way to sing, not some strange affectation. Yes, in most sessions there's an unspoken understanding that people are welcome to join in the music - but not if they've been asked not to.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 08:16 AM

I think that is exactly what is read as unfriendliness. Whether that is its intention does not really matter.

To me the idea that the music is essentially for musicians, when it IS in public place is pure conceit. The complaint here however is not coming from a "punter" but from a fellow musician........

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: forty two
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 07:11 AM

Sessions are for musicians. If they happen to occur in a pub (as they usually do) so be it. But the music is essentially for the musicians and the punters in the pub are secondary to the session. If they are there, they can enjoy it. It is a common fact that sessions do tend to be fairly introspective - a happening amongst musicians; what goes on around the session is usually fairly irrelevant.

Now that can sometimes be read as unfriendliness - I don't believe it is intended to be.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Aug 01 - 02:43 AM

If you perform, you have every expectation of play or singing your song the way you want it..........

To insist on doing this where the expectation is that the people present will play and sing together, is a little hard on them, is it not? Stay at home and do it exactly as you want it.

The way to look at it is just to accept the way the music is made, at that moment in time..... It may sound horrible sometimes? ...Sometimes it may sound wonderful?

You won't know which one of those it was, until it is finished.

Does not the way forward lie somewhere between not being 'precious' and not being bad-mannered?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Brendy
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:56 PM

I was sitting in a session in Oslo a few years back...no names mentioned, as to the venue...but someone asked me to do John Martyn's 'I don't want to know about evil'.
Dezy, my mate, who is a trad flute player, but well known for his forays into Ian Anderson country, came in somewhere in the middle of the 2nd verse, accompanied by this other cove, who insisted on putting an A7 in everywhere I was putting the proper AMINOR7 in. He also exaggerated the rhythm; playing, as he was with one of those awful three cornered plectrums, that turned every stroke into a declaration of war.

Having people join in, is fine; and Dezy hadn't heard the song before.
But he LISTENED to what was going on, and tempered his playing to suit.

I eventually had to stop, because the unaestheticism of it all, got to me in the end.

B.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:37 PM

Singing with an accompaniment is different from singing without one. It's not "precious" to prefer to sing without an accompaniment when you know that this particular case an accompaniment will make it harder for you to sing the song the way you feel you can sing it best.

And that's not just when an accompanist isn't skilled. A brilliant accompanist can get in the way of a singer.

And the same can apply to joining in with other instruments when a singer is accompanying themselves - if it's a song you're breaking in it can really make you completely lose it to have someone come. Especially of course if they assume that the tune and the timing is slightly different from what it actually is intended to be.

That doesn't mean joining in is wrong - much of the time it's just what is wanted. But the basic rule must always be, if the person singing or playing indicates they don't want it, don't do it. And don't assume it's vanity on their part, it's much more likely to be the opposite.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 08:23 PM

IVAN - I have no problem sitting down with a musician and being accompanied (by prior agreement).Songs written to be performed that way sound better that way!

Harmonies can be wonderful and I have enjoyed harmonies added by the audience. Indeed many songs are dramatically enhanced by added harmonies.

There has not been a problem as yet with musicians joining in with me uninvited probably because most of the places I sing in accept solo song as valid in its own right. This to me is the real issue.

Happy singing to you all. John

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: IvanB
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:54 PM

I believe if a singer requests there be no accompaniment to his/her song it would be poor manners to join in instrumentally. But, Geordie, does your imprecation hold true for other voices as well (especially if the song is one which lends itself to harmonies)? I enjoy singing unaccompanied at times, but welcome other voices, especially if they have harmonies to add.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:24 PM

I was in the local Irish society do last Fri night playing with some of the people I play with on a Tuesday night (strictly instrumental). I decided to sing Sam Hall, our regular guitar player from the session looked at me, I nodded and she accompanied me - first time she ever tried that with me and it worked well. She is good of course but the look and the nod are probably well worth noting.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:57 PM

Richard - Your response leaves me speechless - Almost.

Geordie(who sings songs that were written to sound best without accompaniement)Broon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Denise:^)
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:49 PM

An instrument is different becuase every song wasn't written to be sung accompanied. For example, the song I mentioned, "Lovely Agnes," sounds stiff when someone plays along. The only way I can think to describe it is "a loose 3/4 time." There are subtle pauses, etc., that get lost when it's played accompanied.

Sometimes, I just like to lead a song unaccompanied so that I can really appreciate the wonderful harmonies everyone adds.

...but I wasn't meaning to complain about you! I was referring to some actual events I'd experienced.

I know that, when I'm singing/playing, I'll either invite folks to join in before I begin, or folks will catch my eye as I go, and I'll nod if I'd like them to join.

Seriously, I've have many more pleasant experiences than bad ones--the bad ones just make better stories!

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:08 PM

I seem to be getting a bit of flak here about joining in with the unaccompanied singer.

Let me refer back. I said you need to get the feel for if you can or not, and I said that if you join in with one you have to be good enough to follow.

Subject to that I do tend to feel that unaccompanied singer who want to prohibit anyone joining in may be being a little bit overprecious. If I were to join in vocally on a harmony on a chorus or refrain and get hushed I think I'd feel a bit put out. Why is an instrument so different?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Deni
Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:41 AM

Hi all, Great thread, with loads of advice for what to look out for in future and when organising things!!

JudeL-

You were the first person from Mudcat I've ever seen at a session, that I didn't know before, (if you catch my drift.) I intended to speak to you on the night, but tehre were so many people around all chatting at once... I thought you had a really beautiful voice, and there were a good many fine songers on that night

Rock Chick Don't let the buggers grind you down.

Cheers Deni

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:13 PM

I think that last applies more in singing sessions than in tune sessions. I mean, having someone formally in the chair carrying the responsibility for ensuring that things go along well and that newcomers get in. With tune sessins I think it's easier to have a more improvised pattern, in keeping with the music.

Bringing in nnewcomers and keeping things going along are two separate tasks actually, and it can be better to have two people doing them. Preferably in telepathic communication, or what feels like it. But essentially, everyone has a shared responsibility to help newcomers and shy people have a chance.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 06:55 PM

Unfortunately, some people, musicians or otherwise, are just jerks.

I just returned from my first time at a week-long event, where much to my surprise, I found that people playing one type of music were rather arrogant and snotty, while another group playing different stuff were perfectly friendly. (This is all folk music, mind you.) I am not a good enough musician to really participate in even the friendliest instrumental session, but did participate in about four different song circles, where I managed to get in one song at each. In all but one case, where strict rotation was observed, the singing was dominated by the people who already knew each other and were known to the person leading the circle.

I guess that is only to be expected, but it has certainly made me appreciate the inclusiveness of my "home" chantey session, which is pretty much the only one I have attended regularly. Chanteyranger spends a good deal of time trying to make sure that shy newcomers have the opportunity to lead a song if they want to, and sometimes moderating when the regulars all try to sing at once. It seems to me that it's really important to have someone actually running the session, rather than just letting it grow organically and hoping for the best, and it's really nice if the leader has an eye to including everyone.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,A regular with reasons below
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:55 PM

rock chick, I'm wondering where the pub is that you went to. At a club not outside the area you define, also welcoming floor performers, and where the booked performers, and their own established performers are very good, I was told (on first entering) that you only got to be a performer after they got to know you as one during open mike sessions, which were only in August, when I'm away. I couldn't go to a nearby pub night, where open mike was advertised, as it didn't fit in with life, but the house singers there were part of the same group.

I would ask for details via pm, so as to avoid the particular pub, but feel the need for anonymity - since some of the club members (who were friendly in that context)know me through my job, and could identify me, and it could be awkward. Besides which, I wouldn't want to be rude about a system which was working well, to the liking of the longstanding members on a very short acquaintance. Even though there was little opportunity for the audience to join in, either.

Nearly signed it....

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:58 PM

I had wonderd the same McGrath and also about the possibility of someone singing/playing something considered inappropriate for the event - although even when that happens, it costs nothing to let the person finish and be polite about matters. Which ever way I look at this one, I can see a lot of rudeness.

Sessions like you say are funny things though and I expect many of us have at times not been as communicative as we could be to help newcommers - it seems that the trap of expecting someone new to just understand a particular sessions' unwritten rules and customs and then to feel upset when the newcommer is "out of line" is an easy one to fall in to.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Denise:^)
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:53 PM

I think it's only decent manners to ask before you start playing along with an unaccompanied singer. I play three instruments, myself, and if I want to be accompanied, I will! When I sing unaccompanied, it's because I've made that choice.

Nightmare open stage of all time: I was singing Sally Rogers' "Lovely Agnes," a song that was written to be sung unaccompanied, and this guy walks up to the stage and starts strumming, "OOM--pa--pa, OOM--pa--pa..."

Now, "Agnes" IS in 3/4 time, but it's a loose 3/4, not strict waltz time. If you play it that way, the singer has no where to take a breath! I could have easily slapped him silly. (I didn't!)

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:36 PM

The other awkwardness thta can arise is when a newcomer has a different sense of timing about putting in new songs in an unstructured session.

What I mean is, in any session there tends to be a certain instinctive gap between one tune or song stopping and a new one coming in. Time to draw breath, and look around, and the body language shows whose going to do something next.

But you sometimes get a stranger who comes in and doesn't notice this, and noone explains because nobody thinks consciously about this kind of thing. And they either burst into a song or a tune prematurely, or when they've finished do another straight on because nobody has jumped din soon enough; or they hang back and don't give the signal they want to do something, and don't ever get in.

RC's experience sounds like she was just up against bad manners - but conceivably something like that could have come into it. If the rude fella had signalled he was going to do his thing, and was lumbering into action when you started, and he's thinking "she's nicked me spot, I won't let her do that." Still bloody rude of him though.

It all looks spontaneous and unstructured in a pub session - but in fact there's a structure there all the time. And it varies from session to session and place to place.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:32 PM

I agree with the majority, you really did hit on a bunch of ignorant so and so's rock chick. I usually sing unaccompanied but really like it when a guitar or melodeon join me , i think it improves my timing which can be suspect. I sing with a friend in a twp part harmony sometimes, and it can be frustrating when the crowd join in not only the chorus but also the verses, however, I also see that as part of what music is about, connecting through music to other people, so on these occassions i put up and shut up.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: smallpiper
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:17 PM

And you can still hear selby? Must have been good box players!

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: selby
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:29 PM

not in our session there where 13 yes 13 boxes in full swing last night plus guitars banjo's & whistles Keith

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:21 PM

I totally agree with you KD,devious is an understatement, thats also discrimination against the box musician ! that could open a whole load of worms!!!

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM

That's cunning and devious 42. Amazing.

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: forty two
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 12:18 PM

Generally to be a musician is also to be a general all round nice guy. But yes there are the exceptions. No names mentioned here, but I have a story of a couple of friends (fiddle and two row player) who went to a session which was tuned half a tone up. The fiddle could obviously re-tune but no option was left for the box player who just had to sit out.

Tuning up can happen in sessions where the locals keep getting swamped with visitors. I am not defending it by any means - but it does happen.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 11:55 AM

Sorry to be pedantic Richard but is "ask" good enough. I would I feel somewhat upset if someone accompanied me when I sang. Is this an unreasonable point of view? John

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Grab
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 11:42 AM

In a rather lively place I go to where there's no defined order to sing in (it's up to you to take your turn), I've had ppl cut in with their own song 2 seconds after I've started a song. It's usually just bcos it takes 5-10 seconds for the room to quieten down for a singer though, and the other singer hasn't noticed that you've started! At least, the others are mostly nice ppl, so I choose to assume that's the reason... ;-) Cutting you dead mid-song is right out, though - sod 'em, there's other places to play, and make sure anyone you meet at other local sessions knows to avoid this one.

Graham.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 10:35 AM

RC - they was bleedin' rude then.
It amazes me when people just start up a different song when someone is already playing. Well done for keeping going though. And for asking him why.
Doesn't sound like they deserve a second chance. I bet they manage to put a lot of people off completely - which is unforgiveable. I'm sure they're in the minority though - I hope....

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:46 AM

RC, that sounds bad.

Geordie Broon, an unaccompanied singer can always ask not to be accompanied. Specified is a bit strong.

As I said on another thread one of the best surprises I got was the time I was doing a shanty (in B) and got a guitar accompaniment with a sort of bluesy flavour. It was brilliant (but the guy who did it is a hell of a player). It is not necessary to scorn instruments joining in waht would normally be unaccompanied. Both sides want to get the feel of it a bit. A bodhran on something doe with failry free timing could be tricky - but I know some bod players who might be able to pull it off. It's usually better not to pre-judge.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: JudeL
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:28 AM

Don't know about the violence thing, but I was there when the "musicians" took over the one bar out of either pub that wasn't already a musician's session. I say took over because it was not a case of them taking a turn to play a tune in between the singers - because they didn't even have the manners to stop playing during songs that it was obvious that they didn't even know, but effectivly dictated both new melody and timing to the singer. One funny note was the way one cheesed off singer dealt with it, i.e. each time the "musician" started playing along, the singer changed the key in which he was singing, after the third time the "musician" got the hint and stopped trying to take over the song!
But must agree the hallway may have been a pain for the staff but it had good accoustics.
Jude

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 09:12 AM

I agree, rc, they just seem bloody rude- and don't give them the honour of your company and talent again!

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:47 AM

Yes Jon - and the ones that do three songs when the customary is two, so then everyone after them does 3 as well, so that the second part of the evening is all squashed up and no-one knows whether to do 1, 2 or 3.
Ten minute introductions littered with name-droppings...they're a good way of hogging time...
(See I knew I was in bitch-mode).
The body-language point is true too (Shambles) - there's a guy at our open-mic thing that sits with his eyes closed and a sort of pained expression - & I'm never sure whether he likes what I'm singing, whether he is totally oblivious or whether he's feeling mortified on my behalf. My interpretation depends on how I feel at the time - which goes to show how your own mood can affect your interpretation of other people's behaviour (leaping back to the specifics of the thread).

Deni - you're right - its no bed of roses. - which reminds me : someone gave me a rose the other week because they liked a blues song I'd just sung, when I got home I told Mark - who smiled indulgently and pointed out it was a dog rose..(I knew what he was trying to say).

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:34 AM

Hi there King Brilliant, (Kris) well it went like this, visited a pub, took my instruments and sat down with the other musician, asked if it was ok to join in....(meaning when it came round to me)no responce just shrugged shoulders and the look, still thought ok, take the shrugged shoulders responce meaning if you want to.

It came to my turn so I started playing, well the person next to me , a regular I think, started to play somthing completly different a couple of mins after I had started, I thought sod you so I kept on playing, LOUDER, he stoppped after a while and allowed me to finish. At the end of the evening I asked him why he had done that, his reply was, Shrugged shoulders. No these people aren't shy they are just bloody rude, and I told him so. Still won't go there again.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 08:29 AM

KingBrilliant, then there's the type that never support a folk club on singers nights but turn up and expect to perform on a guest night. Then there's the night when your pushed for time if everyone is to get a turn so you ask people do 2 songs instead of the customary 3 - there is always someone who will dig out the 2 longest songs in their repertiore or will find other means to make sure they get their 3 songs worth of time...

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Deni
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:54 AM

Hello all, Interesting this. I heard a guy at small, but not-so-sleepy South Zeal, Nr Okehampton, Devon, remark upon the fact that there were 25 musicians all playing along happily during the Dartmoor Folk Festival.

HOWEVER (and I must shout that) there were a couple of unpleasant incidents I heard about too. One where a second bar was taken over by another group of musicians and one where the bar designated for singers was taken over, in the second pub. In both incidents there was abuse and in one case violence.

The singaround we went to was in the Oxenham Arms, and we ended up singing is this ancient manor-house-type hallway. The session was wonderful and the acoustics gorgeous, even if we had to make the staff, (who were dodging around us with trays laden with coffee and meals.) cross.
When we counted around 50 unaccompanied singers, Ned & I wouldn't even take our interuments out. Luckily we do have quite a bit of unaccompanied material.
Folk music is no bed of roses!!!! Cheers Deni

HYDE FOLK CLUB NEWS,VIEWS & REVIEWS...POST YOURS TOO http://beehive.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/hydefolk

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:44 AM

RC - were they really horrid, or just not actively friendly. I'd love to know what they actually did. Sometimes a group comes across as unfriendly just because no one person took it on themselves to be welcoming. Or perhaps they are shy? Sounds stupid I know, but a lot of folkie types are actually quite shy on a personal level. Maybe if you gave it another shot they might appear completely different. Worth a try?
Bert - I know what you mean about those who leave just after their go - but what I hate even more are those that can't be bothered to turn up until the very end of the evening & then expect to finish the evening with an extra-long set of interminable songs for which we are all expected to be duly grateful. Once or twice is forgivable - but every week started to look like arrogance....
Wow - I feel better for getting that off my chest. Must be my day for being a bitch!

Cheers
Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:09 AM

On the same note of agreement. Why do session players insist on almost fighting to occupy the centre of the room, thus presenting their backs to later arrivals?

If you arrive early and sit with your back to the wall and face in, you will find that someone will sit in front with their back toward you, or face you with their back to everyone else?

No matter how friendly individuals may actually be, our body language alone may make a visitor not wish to stay and find out?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 01 - 02:18 AM

Hi rock chick, I agree with you, there is a lot of bad manners amongst musicians.

At almost every open mike you attend you'll find a good proportion of singers/players, just up and leave immediately after they've finished THEIR turn. In my opinion that behavior labels them as arrogant, inconsiderate assholes.

But here at Mudcat we do strive to act with a little more concern for our fellow entertainers.

Bert.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:22 PM

Hi there Richard B I Will try to get down to see u at Hazlitt Folk a.s.a.p will let u know when, thanks for the info.

If I near your way Noreen I will be in touch, it would be good to meet some Mudcat'ers :-)

Thanks.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:52 PM

UK here too, rock chick, near Manchester. Bit far for an evening out for you, but if you're in the area I'll find you several friendly pub sessions.

Noreen

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:45 PM

Richard - Presumably singers have the right to specify no accompaniement :0) John

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:41 PM

Well, ROck chick, come to Hazlitt FOlk in Maidstone at the Old House at Home in Pudding Lane Maidstone, 830 pm Mondays. 20 minutes down the A20 from South London (30 if you keep the speed limit). GBP 1.50 entry, more on guest nights.

If you really want to play electric, bring your own amp but keep it quiet adn you'll have to carry it up a long flight of stairs. Not sure the power socket is very reliable, and CLive's organ has first call on it. We don't have a PA rig. We operate (except on guest nights) 2 songs (or tunes or whatever) each out in front and joining in is normal including (well, sometimes, not always, get the feel for it) with unaccompanied singers if you are good enough to follow them. Bodhrans, harps, all welcome.

Don't talk while "turn's on", and blow smoke away from no-smokers but you don't HAVE to go out of the room to smoke.

Can't say fairer than that.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 01:28 PM

Kernow John, I agree with you sometimes I like to sing uncompaied and it's very offputting if someone plays along, as for the couple who took unbridge... they may have been good musiciians, in which case they should have understood, anyway it was their loss, not yours.

Raggytash, my use od caps was purly lazy, I had already typed everthing, saw it was all in caps and well couldn't be bothered to change it, nothing more than that, nothing less...........mind you, I had not be long back from the hospital having had two screw put into my upper jaw so maybe, just maybe I was feeling a bit p...... off, who knows?

Noreen I'm in outskirts of Kent, London, England, how's about yourtself?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:49 AM

Gosh Dorothy you've been in the sun too long haven't you? I tend to agree with Rock Chick about some sessions/clubs seeming unfriendly. I have been to a fair few and belong to 2 folk clubs. one is very very friendly and the other has taken about one and a half years to settle in. Now everyone there is chatty and very friendly, but it took a while. It doesn't help I suppose that the strict etiquette in some clubs of no talking is not conducive to formng nstant relationships-the music however is wnderful. So really rock chick I think its a case of keep trying, and if you are able to go to as many festivals as you can, because you are sure to meet club people and they can break the ice wonderfully.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:44 AM

Why advertise like that? As someone suggested, it could be that the venue rather than the club is doing that. A second reason is that folk clubs like to maintain that open to all image - it sounds good but in some rare cases I suspect the claim is purely part of an ego trip...

As an aside, I learned last night that I was part of a "clique", not one based on personalites in terms of egos or on musical ability - I fall short in that department compared to others and even a beginner would be welcome there but one based on music, i.e. you play the music they love (Irish Traditional and anyone can start their own tunes - no it has to all be our sets, everyone gets the same support) for the love of the music and try to have or develop some feeling for the dancers (real or imaginary) that the music is really about...

Maybe that sounds too precious to some and I'm not into cliques but in this case, I feel quite honoured to belong to what I feel is a group of like minded people in terms of an approach to the music in a traditional music session (my own tastes for example are wider than just that, I enjoy "celtic rock", and other mixes too...).

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 05:13 AM

rc, just remember that if you walk out the door of that pub, it's only a few steps to the ground! So don't be afraid to vote with your feet.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Denise:^)
Date: 15 Aug 01 - 03:22 AM

Hmmm...still can't tell enough to know what was going on. Some people ARE just creeps, you know; it's too bad, but I hope you keep trying other places 'till you find one that 'fits.'

(Oh--the folks who joined our paid performance never stopped to ask if it was okay to join us. They just walked up and joined in with our group, which looked--to them--like a group of folkies playing under the trees at the Heritage Days festival. Which we were, only we were there by request & contract...)

And, like Kernow John, I've had the 'guitar player whanging away during an intentionally unaccompanied song' experience, too...usually in a rhythm totally unrelated to the song being sung...BUT, no matter how good they are, there are songs you just want/need to sing unaccompanied!

So, keep looking, if you want to find new places to play. (Sounds like you already have some.) If they're snobs, you don't want to play with them anyway!

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,faswilli2
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 11:19 PM

I'm no expert but it seems there is a certain etiquitte to follow when sitting in to jam or participating in an open mike. True, some people want to jump out front and show what they can do but they often destroy a rhythm that the group has going. Guage your time to jump in , it will come.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Dorothy's twin again
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:22 PM

Noreen, you do love to write more and more about less and less, don't you?

Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song, A medley of extemporanea; And love is a thing that can never go wrong; And I am Marie of Roumania.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Noreen
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 10:09 PM

Nah, Twin, I'm a scientist and my statement above was based on my own empirical observations: All the mudcatters I have met (and that is a fair few) have been friendly.

Perhaps if you gave people a chance to find out who you are, you might find that there are other ways of dealing with the world than cynicism?

Noreen Keene

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Dorothy Parker's Evil Twin
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 09:32 PM

Noreen, where did you say you received your indoctrination?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Noreen
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 09:29 PM

No, they weren't mudcatters... by definition, catters would have been friendly!

Sorry you've had a bad time. Where in the world are you, chick?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 07:09 PM

Perhaps your use of capital letters says something?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Kernow John
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 06:28 PM

Sorry you had a bad experience Rock Chick but it can work both ways.
Had a couple come to our session the other night, good musicians both of them. They started to play along with an unncompanied singer so I lent forward and asked quietly if they could just hang on a minute.
They took umbridge and didn't join in the rest of the evening.
It left me feeling bad for a while as we pride ourselves on being a friendly session.
There you go can't win them all!
KJ

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 06:26 PM

Maybe some specifics would help?

Most clubs (sessions) seem quite friendly to me, and so far as I've seen we wrinklies tend to become overcome with the need to preserve the next generation if anyone under 40 comes in.

Bob Copper's club, mind you, is reputed to ostracise anyone who wants to play guitar because the guitar is not known to English folk music being (a) foreign and (b) modern. But perhaps when you're that famous you are allowed to be eccentric.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 05:40 PM

So many questions guest Denise, lets break it down, 1."you people" is a term "if the hat fits 2.They may well be people who use Mudcat, they never really get chatting, there to unfriendly. 3.It happens at a few different pubs I'v visted, mind you only twice, the first time, ok I new give it time, on the second visit I think if you want to behave like that won't bother again. 4.I like to play the type of music that fits the evening and the people. 5.If someone came to our folk jam and announced "I *hate* folk music!! etc etc even we wouldn't welcome him/her ( can't be sexist) 6. NO I would dream of joining in with anyone who was been paid, unless I was asked, even then I would think twice about it. Your the ones been paid, you bloody well work for it (joke) :-)

rc

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,joeclone
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 05:31 PM

MESSAGES MOVED FROM DUPLICATE THREAD:

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Sorcha
Date: 14-Aug-01 - 04:58 PM

RC--once was good enough,grin. See this thread. This one is a duplicate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14-Aug-01 - 05:01 PM
Maybe it's because you are shouting a little?

Some musicians you've come across are unfriendly, but others are friendly? That's true enough. It's how this world is.

On the whole I think the people who play in sessions in oubs tend to be a little bit friendlier and more welcomed than the general run of people in pubs, in England anyway, but there are some creeps everywhere.

Presumably it's a particular case you're irritated by. But where does the "you people" come into it? In the econtext of the Mudcat "you people" are spread over several continents.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 14-Aug-01 - 05:21 PM

Sorcha, I'm having trouble with the computer tonight, got to blame something, lucky it only went twice, could have been many more.

McGrath of Harlow, "you people" being a term "if the hat fits" :-)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Denise:^)
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 05:21 PM

Who are "you people?" Are they on Mudcat? Do you know this? How?

If this is not at the clubs or pubs you go to, how do you know it happens?

What did you want to play? The same type of music they did, or were you going to "show them what real music sounds like?" (A man came to our folk music jam, and announced, "I *hate* folk music!! I'm going to show you-all what GOOD music sounds like!" Needless to say, folks didn't exactly roll out the red carpet!) Did you want to sing at an instrumental jam? Play an instrumental tune at a song jam?

Are you sure it was a jam you wanted to join, and not a show or a rehearsal? (We've had people walk right up and join in when we've been at a paid performance--art fairs, "heritage festivals," and the like, where they pay you to set up in an area and play for 3 hours or so for folks passing by. Needless to say, we didn't appreciate the 'help!')

I'm not accusing you of anything wrong--I just want to point out that there are way too many "unknowns" here for anybody to give you any good suggestions.

Why don't you slip in a few details, and see if we can come up with anything solid?

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 05:18 PM

We're just windin' ye up, rock chick.

I love rock too, and my daughter just the short and spiky hair cut. I've been envious all summer, and may just do it myself...it is so EASY!

Kind regards.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 05:15 PM

Guest,joeclone, sorry didn't mean to shout was typing away and relised the caps lock was on and just couldn't be bothered to take it off, mind you I feel like shouting at some of those so called friendly musician, and whilst the pub may be doing the advertising the musician normally have a say in it as well, down our way they do anyway. PeteBoom in fact I play guitar,and yes I do PLAY bodhran :-) am also leaning manderlin and the piano, though I wouldn't play them in public for a long time yet!! and to Guest? the name rc came about somthing to do with the haircut, short and spiky,It's my twin daughters who play the drums, mind you I love rock music, in fact I like most music.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: PeteBoom
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 05:04 PM

Hey - rock and bodhrans have in common...

Do you "play" a drum machine? I remember a night in an "alternative" club when a buddy and I were laughing at the incredibly bad duo dancing to their pre-programmed electronic devices. One of them said "I'd like to see YOU two old farts* (I'm being polite here, you get the idea) program one of these - so we did - Ein Kline Nacht Musik. (I spelled it wrong, you get the idea...)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:43 PM

Pete,

Don't be ridiculous, she is a rock chick. She plays a drum machine. :-)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,RiS
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:42 PM

I usually find its quite the opposite
I listen in at a session for a few weeks, then get asked to play. I explain how rubbish I am, people encorage me, I play, they realise I speak the truth and then let me go back to being part of the the audience

Roger

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: PeteBoom
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:36 PM

This could be a silly question. Do you play bodhran?

(practicing "duck and cover" - and showing how old I am...)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:31 PM

.......is that the same unfriendly musician following you around to different pubs??????????
sounds like a stalker to me

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:29 PM

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you rock chick, could you scream that thread title at me a few more times?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,joeclone
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:22 PM

MOVED FROM DUPLICATE THREAD:

FROM EBBIE:

Don't shout, rc- What? Were you brought up in a barn? *BG*

In answer to your question: maybe it's not the musicians who do the advertising but the pub instead? If that's so, be assured that you are welcome, even if the old die-hard regulars are not fond of the idea of newcomers.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:16 PM

who, what, where?
please explain some more?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: MMario
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:10 PM

Bravo! Hope you can continue to maintain that attitude - especially if you encounter someone who deliberatly comes to your venue to disrupt the jam.

Subject: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: rock chick
Date: 14 Aug 01 - 04:07 PM

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS WHY THESE PEOPLE ADVERTISE IN THE LOCAL PAPERS 'ALL MUSICIAN WELCOME TO COME AND PLAY' BUT WHEN YOU ARRIVE THESE PEOPLE ARE COLD AND UNFRIENDLY, THEY OBVIOUSLY DO NOT WANT ANY NEW PEOPLE TO PLAY.

THEY DO NOT EVEN GIVE PEOPLE THE CHANCE TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE GOOD MUSICIANS. WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE SCARED OF??

IN THE CLUB AND PUBS I GO TO WE WELCOME EVERYONE, IN FACT WE ENCOURAGE ANY NEW COMERS TO JOIN IN, NEEDLESS TO SAY WE HAVE A GREAT FOLLOWING