Unfriendly folk musicians in pubs

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:58 PM

Sorry, I screwed up that link to my website. Here goes again.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser0
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 05:27 PM

Sorry, Jon. Just messin'.

Sounds good, by the way. Not round Liverpool way, is it, by any chance?

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 10:12 PM

Some of you should visit Hull, there is a good folk session every night exept Saturday, and every session I have ever been to has been really friendly.Maybe that's why there is so many folkies & Mudcatters in hull. :-)

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:03 AM

Bunny you appear to have completely missed the points I was making:
1) there is a difference in style between singing with or without instruments, just as there is a difference in style of playing instruments without the restrictions of accompanying a singer
2) different types of song invite/expect different levels of (singing) participation, e.g. songs with a chorus or refrain, ballad or shanty 3) far from it being due to overinflated self importance, there is recognition that a singer can be so thrown by someone's joining in where they are not expected that the singer may find it difficult to carry on with the song at all . (Joan Byaz and her amp may be unfazed but not everyone is that confident and I wonder how she would feel about a fiddle playing a slightly different tune louder than she was singing!)
Finally as I said in my previous post, appreciation and manners - appreciation of what is apt, and manners to only join in where apt. Jude - who intends to get suitably drunk and thoroughly enjoy lots of chorus songs at Towersey on Thursday.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:31 AM

No Chris, it was Norwich way.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:40 AM

Jude - just on Thursday? Will you be sleeping it off on Fri Sat Sun & Mon?

kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Bunny
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:42 AM

Jude L. If you had been able to see my face as I was typing you would have noticed that my tounge was placed firmly in my cheek.My point is I suppose that some folkies appear to take thamselves a little too seriously. I am new to the session scene, having been introduced by my husband( Born again scouser) and I am a singer. However I have found the so called 'session etiquette' something of a turn off. Maybe I'm just too much of a disco chick.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:53 AM

This so-called 'session etiquette' is just a term for some musicians to justify being rude and self-important.

Al that is needed is common sense, good manners and consideration for others.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 09:41 AM

But Shambles - not everybody has common sense, good manners and consideration for others. Hence the need for some sort of artificial structure or ettiquette.

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 11:03 AM

Not just Thursday but it'll do for starters.
Sorry bout the minor rant, I'd just finished a 10 hour waking night duty & I'm working another tonight. Roll on tomorrow lunchtime.
Jude

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 03:26 PM

But Shambles - not everybody has common sense, good manners and consideration for others. Hence the need for some sort of artificial structure or ettiquette.

But surely 'session ettiquiette' should never be seen as a replacement for common sense, good manners and consideration for others?

If you don't have these qualities, no ammount of 'session ettiquette' will disguise the fact and hiding behind the term, only allows these people to inflict their lack of common sense, good manners and consideration for others on everyone else.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: Frank Maher
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 10:11 PM

Yes!Memorial University of Newfoundland has a Campus in Old Harlow..I Played There on a Couple of Occasions when I Played with the Figgy Duff Band...The People in Old Harlow are Wonderful!!!!!

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 04:59 AM

Shambles I'm confused now. Surely if the session ettiquette is set up by people of CS, GM & CFO then that becomes the framework in which the session operates and therefor should guard against the wilder excesses of those with lesser degrees of the 'three virtues' (saves typing)?
So it would only allow infliction of the lack thereof if the session were set up by (or controled by) the fiendishly unvirtuous? - in which case the session would be naff & would probably die?
The only other thing to do is to exclude people without the 'three virtues' and excluding people is what we want to avoid.

Kris

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 05:25 AM

Now I'm confused. *Smoles*

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 05:32 AM

Oh blimey!

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 05:38 AM

"session etiquette" is just supposed to be a handy way of summing up "common sense, good manners and consideration for others". All of which include newcomers paying respect to the customs of the place, and regulars paying respect to the needs of newcomers.

Yes - Figgy Duff is still remembered in Harlow. Unfortunately I missed the occasion when this strange bunch of Newefoundlanders suddenly emerged and shook everyone up. Send us some more.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,AliUK
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 01:45 PM

I agree with the guy from Newfoundland. This "preciousness"of clubs and sessions is what kills music. I was on the comitee of one such club that died ( people had to be quiet, we had to know you before you got a spot, no ne joined in) and it died a slow and embarrasing death. I then set up another club ( I was invited to by an arts association) where you could talk smoke, join in, a club with a friendly atmosphere. If the performer was good, usually people would shut up and apprediate the music or song, if not then 'Bye, Bye may Brudder." Which I actually felt was more the way it should be.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 02:02 PM

That's a whole different thing from the question of unwanted musical or vocal accompaniment.

If people don't quieten down and listen to a singer who is not that loud or who is not that confident, that is not within my definition of a "friendly atmosphere."

Control freaks can screw up a club or a session. But so can bad-mannered oafs who don't care about music and other people. Wanting to hear nothing but the sound of their own voice isn't limited to singers - it's more typical of the loudmouths who prop up the bar in some places.

I think there's a difference between two situations - one is where a bar that is primarily a talking socialising place is tolerant about having a few musicians in the corner. The other is where there is a full-fledged session, and most people are listening. In the first case it's unfair to expect quiet, so you just have to bellow a bit. But the second case quiet for songs is good manners and to be expected of anyone with good manners.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 06:54 PM

McGrath, I agree with your assessment but there are of course situations such as an Irish society do I try to get to once a month where the musicians and the music is wanted as opposed to the bar where people are just being tolerant towards them but the night is still a social event with music rather than a session. It's a good night too as long as people expect and understand (and can cope with) the more noisy (although very friendly) environment.

Jon

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 09:19 PM

True enough, that's a different variety again. The more you think of it, the more complicated it all gets. The one thread that goes through all of them is having proper respect for the situation, and for the other people involved. And in a strange place, observe what's going on, and never be afraid to ask if you aren't clear.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: GUEST,janey
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 01:44 PM

i can't believe all this; some people in folk sessions are boring miserable old gits and some are a right laugh. that's just the way it is. i always find that if you go to a session or a club with the right attitude and a bit of a grin on your face there will normally be someone who responds and makes you feel welcome. if there's no one like that then do you want to be there anyway? go and have a kebab instead. ps whitby folk week was great everyone dead friendly until i got the flu.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: AliUK
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 05:51 PM

Dear Mr. McGrath, the club was Luton Folk club, not too many miles away from you, that segued into The Wild Ogre ( and survived about 2 years after I moved out here to Brazil. I just read my posting and due to uncommon haste I realised that I hadn't put in what I really wanted to say. Many of the performers that came to the club where first time performers ( not just musicians and singers, but poets and comedians as well). They all got a good listening to, what I was trying to get at was that no one turned their backs on them, no one ( and I mean NO ONE) was turned away ( things sometimes went on until the early hours. This was an arts centre with a bar and not a pub). The only difference was on guest night, which were kept to a minimum. When the floor spots were more organised.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 07:07 PM

That would have been the second club, not the first one that died the death? Sounds good.

I didn't mean to jump down your throat AliUK, if it felt like that. I get nervous about anything that threatens to freeze out timorous newcomers. (Which doesn't just mean young performers - getting back into the swing of it after years away can be the scariest thing of all - here is a song about that.)

Anything resembling folk clubs in Brazil? Maybe that should be another thread though.

Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS
From: AliUK
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 05:33 PM

McGrath, weeeeel, as a timorous newcomer waaaaaaaaaaay back when ( I was 17 when I first stepped through the bevveled glass doors of a folk club) i understood exactly what newcomers went through. That's why with the 'Ogre"there was a policy towards non-pretenciousness. Also we had PAs, so that helped a lot. We don't need folk clubs here in Brazil as traditional music is a living thing out here, music is the lifeblood and it all loops back into the popular music. But I am currently teaching at an Americam EFL school and the theme this semester is Jazz, and they seem quite keen to set up a music club with the onus on american music so I'm dusting off my Dylan and Guthrie and some of dem dere blues.