 sj |
||
|
||
Unfriendly folk musicians in pubs
|
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 Aug 01 - 03:32 PM I agree with the majority, you really did hit on a bunch of ignorant so and so's rock chick. I usually sing unaccompanied but really like it when a guitar or melodeon join me , i think it improves my timing which can be suspect. I sing with a friend in a twp part harmony sometimes, and it can be frustrating when the crowd join in not only the chorus but also the verses, however, I also see that as part of what music is about, connecting through music to other people, so on these occassions i put up and shut up. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:36 PM The other awkwardness thta can arise is when a newcomer has a different sense of timing about putting in new songs in an unstructured session.
What I mean is, in any session there tends to be a certain instinctive gap between one tune or song stopping and a new one coming in. Time to draw breath, and look around, and the body language shows whose going to do something next.
But you sometimes get a stranger who comes in and doesn't notice this, and noone explains because nobody thinks consciously about this kind of thing. And they either burst into a song or a tune prematurely, or when they've finished do another straight on because nobody has jumped din soon enough; or they hang back and don't give the signal they want to do something, and don't ever get in.
RC's experience sounds like she was just up against bad manners - but conceivably something like that could have come into it. If the rude fella had signalled he was going to do his thing, and was lumbering into action when you started, and he's thinking "she's nicked me spot, I won't let her do that." Still bloody rude of him though.
It all looks spontaneous and unstructured in a pub session - but in fact there's a structure there all the time. And it varies from session to session and place to place. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Denise:^) Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:53 PM I think it's only decent manners to ask before you start playing along with an unaccompanied singer. I play three instruments, myself, and if I want to be accompanied, I will! When I sing unaccompanied, it's because I've made that choice. Nightmare open stage of all time: I was singing Sally Rogers' "Lovely Agnes," a song that was written to be sung unaccompanied, and this guy walks up to the stage and starts strumming, "OOM--pa--pa, OOM--pa--pa..." Now, "Agnes" IS in 3/4 time, but it's a loose 3/4, not strict waltz time. If you play it that way, the singer has no where to take a breath! I could have easily slapped him silly. (I didn't!) Denise:^) |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Aug 01 - 04:58 PM I had wonderd the same McGrath and also about the possibility of someone singing/playing something considered inappropriate for the event - although even when that happens, it costs nothing to let the person finish and be polite about matters. Which ever way I look at this one, I can see a lot of rudeness. Sessions like you say are funny things though and I expect many of us have at times not been as communicative as we could be to help newcommers - it seems that the trap of expecting someone new to just understand a particular sessions' unwritten rules and customs and then to feel upset when the newcommer is "out of line" is an easy one to fall in to. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,A regular with reasons below Date: 16 Aug 01 - 05:55 PM rock chick, I'm wondering where the pub is that you went to. At a club not outside the area you define, also welcoming floor performers, and where the booked performers, and their own established performers are very good, I was told (on first entering) that you only got to be a performer after they got to know you as one during open mike sessions, which were only in August, when I'm away. I couldn't go to a nearby pub night, where open mike was advertised, as it didn't fit in with life, but the house singers there were part of the same group. I would ask for details via pm, so as to avoid the particular pub, but feel the need for anonymity - since some of the club members (who were friendly in that context)know me through my job, and could identify me, and it could be awkward. Besides which, I wouldn't want to be rude about a system which was working well, to the liking of the longstanding members on a very short acquaintance. Even though there was little opportunity for the audience to join in, either. Nearly signed it.... |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Melani Date: 16 Aug 01 - 06:55 PM Unfortunately, some people, musicians or otherwise, are just jerks. I just returned from my first time at a week-long event, where much to my surprise, I found that people playing one type of music were rather arrogant and snotty, while another group playing different stuff were perfectly friendly. (This is all folk music, mind you.) I am not a good enough musician to really participate in even the friendliest instrumental session, but did participate in about four different song circles, where I managed to get in one song at each. In all but one case, where strict rotation was observed, the singing was dominated by the people who already knew each other and were known to the person leading the circle. I guess that is only to be expected, but it has certainly made me appreciate the inclusiveness of my "home" chantey session, which is pretty much the only one I have attended regularly. Chanteyranger spends a good deal of time trying to make sure that shy newcomers have the opportunity to lead a song if they want to, and sometimes moderating when the regulars all try to sing at once. It seems to me that it's really important to have someone actually running the session, rather than just letting it grow organically and hoping for the best, and it's really nice if the leader has an eye to including everyone. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Aug 01 - 07:13 PM I think that last applies more in singing sessions than in tune sessions. I mean, having someone formally in the chair carrying the responsibility for ensuring that things go along well and that newcomers get in. With tune sessins I think it's easier to have a more improvised pattern, in keeping with the music.
Bringing in nnewcomers and keeping things going along are two separate tasks actually, and it can be better to have two people doing them. Preferably in telepathic communication, or what feels like it. But essentially, everyone has a shared responsibility to help newcomers and shy people have a chance. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Deni Date: 17 Aug 01 - 03:41 AM Hi all, Great thread, with loads of advice for what to look out for in future and when organising things!! JudeL- You were the first person from Mudcat I've ever seen at a session, that I didn't know before, (if you catch my drift.) I intended to speak to you on the night, but tehre were so many people around all chatting at once... I thought you had a really beautiful voice, and there were a good many fine songers on that night Rock Chick Don't let the buggers grind you down. Cheers Deni
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Richard Bridge Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:08 PM I seem to be getting a bit of flak here about joining in with the unaccompanied singer. Let me refer back. I said you need to get the feel for if you can or not, and I said that if you join in with one you have to be good enough to follow. Subject to that I do tend to feel that unaccompanied singer who want to prohibit anyone joining in may be being a little bit overprecious. If I were to join in vocally on a harmony on a chorus or refrain and get hushed I think I'd feel a bit put out. Why is an instrument so different? |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Denise:^) Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:49 PM An instrument is different becuase every song wasn't written to be sung accompanied. For example, the song I mentioned, "Lovely Agnes," sounds stiff when someone plays along. The only way I can think to describe it is "a loose 3/4 time." There are subtle pauses, etc., that get lost when it's played accompanied. Sometimes, I just like to lead a song unaccompanied so that I can really appreciate the wonderful harmonies everyone adds. ...but I wasn't meaning to complain about you! I was referring to some actual events I'd experienced. I know that, when I'm singing/playing, I'll either invite folks to join in before I begin, or folks will catch my eye as I go, and I'll nod if I'd like them to join. Seriously, I've have many more pleasant experiences than bad ones--the bad ones just make better stories! Denise:^) |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: John Routledge Date: 17 Aug 01 - 06:57 PM Richard - Your response leaves me speechless - Almost. Geordie(who sings songs that were written to sound best without accompaniement)Broon
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:24 PM I was in the local Irish society do last Fri night playing with some of the people I play with on a Tuesday night (strictly instrumental). I decided to sing Sam Hall, our regular guitar player from the session looked at me, I nodded and she accompanied me - first time she ever tried that with me and it worked well. She is good of course but the look and the nod are probably well worth noting. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: IvanB Date: 17 Aug 01 - 07:54 PM I believe if a singer requests there be no accompaniment to his/her song it would be poor manners to join in instrumentally. But, Geordie, does your imprecation hold true for other voices as well (especially if the song is one which lends itself to harmonies)? I enjoy singing unaccompanied at times, but welcome other voices, especially if they have harmonies to add. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: John Routledge Date: 17 Aug 01 - 08:23 PM IVAN - I have no problem sitting down with a musician and being accompanied (by prior agreement).Songs written to be performed that way sound better that way! Harmonies can be wonderful and I have enjoyed harmonies added by the audience. Indeed many songs are dramatically enhanced by added harmonies. There has not been a problem as yet with musicians joining in with me uninvited probably because most of the places I sing in accept solo song as valid in its own right. This to me is the real issue. Happy singing to you all. John
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:37 PM Singing with an accompaniment is different from singing without one. It's not "precious" to prefer to sing without an accompaniment when you know that this particular case an accompaniment will make it harder for you to sing the song the way you feel you can sing it best.
And that's not just when an accompanist isn't skilled. A brilliant accompanist can get in the way of a singer.
And the same can apply to joining in with other instruments when a singer is accompanying themselves - if it's a song you're breaking in it can really make you completely lose it to have someone come. Especially of course if they assume that the tune and the timing is slightly different from what it actually is intended to be.
That doesn't mean joining in is wrong - much of the time it's just what is wanted. But the basic rule must always be, if the person singing or playing indicates they don't want it, don't do it. And don't assume it's vanity on their part, it's much more likely to be the opposite. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Brendy Date: 17 Aug 01 - 09:56 PM I was sitting in a session in Oslo a few years back...no names mentioned, as to the venue...but someone asked me to do John Martyn's 'I don't want to know about evil'. Dezy, my mate, who is a trad flute player, but well known for his forays into Ian Anderson country, came in somewhere in the middle of the 2nd verse, accompanied by this other cove, who insisted on putting an A7 in everywhere I was putting the proper AMINOR7 in. He also exaggerated the rhythm; playing, as he was with one of those awful three cornered plectrums, that turned every stroke into a declaration of war. Having people join in, is fine; and Dezy hadn't heard the song before. I eventually had to stop, because the unaestheticism of it all, got to me in the end. B. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 18 Aug 01 - 02:43 AM If you perform, you have every expectation of play or singing your song the way you want it..........
To insist on doing this where the expectation is that the people present will play and sing together, is a little hard on them, is it not? Stay at home and do it exactly as you want it.
The way to look at it is just to accept the way the music is made, at that moment in time..... It may sound horrible sometimes? ...Sometimes it may sound wonderful?
You won't know which one of those it was, until it is finished. Does not the way forward lie somewhere between not being 'precious' and not being bad-mannered? |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: forty two Date: 18 Aug 01 - 07:11 AM Sessions are for musicians. If they happen to occur in a pub (as they usually do) so be it. But the music is essentially for the musicians and the punters in the pub are secondary to the session. If they are there, they can enjoy it. It is a common fact that sessions do tend to be fairly introspective - a happening amongst musicians; what goes on around the session is usually fairly irrelevant. Now that can sometimes be read as unfriendliness - I don't believe it is intended to be. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 18 Aug 01 - 08:16 AM I think that is exactly what is read as unfriendliness. Whether that is its intention does not really matter. To me the idea that the music is essentially for musicians, when it IS in public place is pure conceit. The complaint here however is not coming from a "punter" but from a fellow musician........ |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Aug 01 - 08:28 AM Sessions are for musicians - and singers are musicians just as much as anyone with a manufactured instrument, they are just using a different instrument. Just about all good sessions I have ever been to some of the time there'll be a person either singing or playing a tune on their own.
That may be because they are so good, or doing something so difficult, people prefer not to try to join in and risk spoiling it; sometimes it's because the person isn't sure enough of what they are doing to welcome the distraction of an accompaniment; sometimes it's because it's an unfamiliar tune, and the rest have the common sense to listen to it a bit before they feel ready to come in.
Sometimes it's a way of giving respect to a song - typically in an Irish session when someone with a small voice sings a sean nos song.
There's nothing "precious" in singing without an instrumental accompaniment - it's the first and most straightforward and natural way to sing, not some strange affectation. Yes, in most sessions there's an unspoken understanding that people are welcome to join in the music - but not if they've been asked not to. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Noreen Date: 18 Aug 01 - 09:30 AM Exactly what I wanted to say, McG, expressed more clearly than I could have. Thank you. Noreen |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 18 Aug 01 - 09:36 AM There's nothing "precious" in singing without an instrumental accompaniment -
The 'preciousness' I was referring to was the expectation that a group of people gathered to make music together should not be able to do this because the individual singers/players insist on 'performing' and useing them only as an audience.
When folk insist on doing this, at such a gathering, I would just like them to recognise that if everyone present insisted on doing the same thing, there would not be any time to make music together, which is after all the object at these affairs?
It does not seem to be generally recognised that it is only the other people not execising this right, that enables others to 'perform' to them.
As Bert said earlier I wonder how many of these people, sometimes after talking all through the ensemble music, then leave after doing 'their spot'? Nor should these be turned into 'making music together' sessions. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Peg Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:11 AM well, speaking as someone whose instrument is her voice, and keeping in mind that singing is quite simply a quieter sound than a fiddle or flute or drum or accordion or bouzouki or banjo or mandolin or pennywhistle, I do not think it is unreasonable that the other musicians take a break and sit silently when an unaccompanied singer does a song. I am more comfortable in song only sessiuns but there aren't many of them But when I attend an instrumental sessiun, I find I am a LOT more comfortable if there is someone I know there who KNOWS I am a singer and who just might ASK me to sing (thereby letting the other instrumentalists know that at least one of their number thinks my song might be worthy of a few monents of silence), or someone I might feel comfortable asking if a song would be welcome. Otherwise I sit and listen, or play my drum or whistle if I have it with me. Sometimes an instrumentalist will apologize that the vibe of the sessiun that night does not seem conducive to a song and that maybe it will settle down and that will be appropriate (I appreciate that consideration, because it means this person is thinking of soemone else's feelinsg and the success of the sessiun--sometimes they say this before the subject of a song is broached, sometimes in answer to a query). As for instruments or voices accompanying an unaccompanied singer; well, under some circumstances this is acceptable. usually not, because usually those who choose to jump in and accompany a solo singer either don't know the song and just want to be part of a soft sound so they can stand out, or they want to sing harmony and are no good at it but feel the need to practic ewith you with no regard for your tempo or sometimes even the KEY you are singing in. BUT when an instrumentalist plays softly and really enhances the solo (after waiting to see if this is a song which would do well with bit of accompaniment; to just jump in without seeing where the singer is going in term sof an irregular, free-form tempo or recitative style is rude I think), it can be lovely. Similarly, if someone starts to sing harmony and does it WELL and in a way which does not overshadow the soloist (I remember Animaterra adding some GORGEOUS harmonies to a song I did at a Mudcat gethering; then when I did a song later she started to sing along, then figured out it probably would not work as well, owing to the darkness of the song and the rather inscrutable rhythm I was using, and respectfully listened to the rest of it. Now that is someone who is very talented but respectful enough to know when she is adding something and when she could get more out of the experience by listening), then that can also be lovely. And some song sessiuns seem to want singers to sing songs with choruses that everyone can sing along on. Which can be nice (Old Songs seemed to be like this), but why not allow a singer once in a while to sing completely alone if their song calls for it? Of course one can sing something obscure that no one knows and probably won't have to worry about anyone trying to sing along (I know at least one instrumentalist in Boston who does this a lot with tunes no one has heard of, and I swear it is so he can play solo!); then again there was a woman who used to come to the singers' club who would sing these off-key arpeggio type things to WHATEVER anyone was singing! Most annoying... I think awareness and some modicum of sensitivity is what is called for...and trying to monitor one's own ego and what part it serves, if things are not going as one likes them to...
my opinion, for what it is worth, Peg kick-ass singer, on occasion ;)
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 18 Aug 01 - 10:34 AM To me the idea that the music is essentially for musicians, when it IS in public place is pure conceit. The complaint here however is not coming from a "punter" but from a fellow musician........ |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Peg Date: 18 Aug 01 - 01:00 PM Jon; I agree with what you say re: anyone "insisting" on more solos; this is not appropriate at a primarily instrumental sessiun, any more than it would be for an instrumentalist to insist on more tunes at a singers' sessiun; this all comes down to mutual respect and being flexible with what shape a sessun has. Most instrumental sessiuns want to play together; the occasional solo or song is just to add some variety and hopefully enhance the traditional color of the sessiun... I also agree that audience members are every bit as important to consider as thos eplaying; then again soem audience members are not the least bit interested int he music, they are just there to drnk, or watch the match, etc.
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Peter Kasin Date: 18 Aug 01 - 11:59 PM I think McGrath and Peg have hit the nail on the head. The bottom line here is: singer's choice. If you're not sure if you're instrumental or vocal accompaniment would be welcomed, best to sit it out and listen to the singer, unless the singer has signalled that accompaniment is welcome. With a chantey sing, of course, (nice to read that, Melani) singing on the choruses is expected and encouraged, and there is etiquette to be followed there, too - again, being sensitive to the wishes of whoever's leading a song, if they express any - to name an ever-important one. Jon, I agree about too many solos. Sensitivity should run both ways at sessions. -chanteyranger |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:48 AM Interesting site. I just came across it inadvertently and I haven't had time to check out all the messages but it seems to me that there are a lot of ideas and sentiments being expressed that it would be nice to hear expressed and discussed at sessions themselves. Of course, that never happens for a number of reasons. Time considerations, of course, plus the fact that most of the people present are there to play and not philosophise about the meaning of life, music, the price of cheese etc. I spent nearly 15 years playing in the same session in London most Sundays. I learnt a hell of a lot there and got the chance to play and learn a lot of music I probably would never have learnt otherwise. However, it did take time to get to know some of the people who played there, not because people were unfriendly but it's in the nature of traditional music that a lot of the people who play it are very intense and serious about what they do and many of them (us? me?) heave spent a lot of their formative years learning and practicing on their own. So it often takes time to settle in and become accepted, especially if you play guitar because, after all, there are lots of them out there and unlike 'melody' instruments like fiddles or flutes there are only so many guitars (or bodhrans) that any 'serious' instrumental session can support before it all gets a bit bangy and strummy. Stick at it. If you mean business, people will soon recognise that. Besides, sessions aren't therapy. It's not about you. If you make friends, that's a bonus and it'll probably happen in its own time anyway. But in my experience, as long as you get off on the music, it doesn't really matter what the people are like - unless you don't have any mates.
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:59 AM Stick at it. If you mean business, people will soon recognise that. Besides, sessions aren't therapy. It's not about you Well said and welcome....Sessions (even the serious and ernest ones Chis B refers to) are not for musicians, they are for music... |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Aug 01 - 11:36 AM Brendy said: ".....accompanied by this other cove, who insisted on putting an A7 in everywhere I was putting the proper AMINOR7 in. He also exaggerated the rhythm; playing, as he was with one of those awful three cornered plectrums, that turned every stroke into a declaration of war. Me again: I've been the recipient of this kind of "help" a few times. The guitarist with 'no ear, and no manners has quickly found out that my mellow 'live and let live philosophy' disappears quickly when I'm around idiots. Brendy also said: "Having people join in, is fine; and Dezy hadn't heard the song before. But he LISTENED to what was going on, and tempered his playing to suit.". Me again: God bless Dezy. Rick |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: toadfrog Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:22 PM I second everything Chanteyranger just said. Chanteyranger runs a reasonably taut ship. Basically, there have to be some underlying rules and expectations, or there are going to be problems of that kind. I remeber trying to sing and play "Bourgeois Blues" at the San Francisco Folk Club, once, and had to stop in the middle, and say: "Gee, if you want to join in, that's fine, but please try to stay in the same rythm I am in." That's the last time I attended that club, and the last time I played a guitar in public. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: forty two Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:44 AM Shambles, I still defend my stand that sessions are for the musicians - and the music of course. There is no conceit in this at all. There is a friendship between sessioning musicians which will involve swapping of tunes or talking about tunes and songs. There is the craic that happens between sets and all that happens in the time scale that the session sets itself. Now all of this does tend to exclude the punter in the pub. Again, it might be read as unfriendliness. But to be fair, it's not. Is it? Now if you put a mike in amongst the muscians that casts a totally different light on the subject because that then implies public entertainment. And in that case, yes I would agree with you, that would be conceit. But that is not a true session in the terms that I have known them for many years. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: JudeL Date: 20 Aug 01 - 06:48 AM If you normally sing unaccompanied by instruments it can be very offputting to have someone suddenly join in uninvited. When you sing without instruments you are free to adjust the phrasing, timing, tone , you can pitch it to suit the song and voice and even vary this within the song as needed to convey emphasis and meaning. I make the distinction of singing unaccompanied by instruments because in many singarounds singers tend to choose mainly songs with a chorus or refrain to enable others to join them for that part of the song. Chosing to sing without instruments is not precious but it is a different type of singing, just as there are different styles of playing instruments. In the end it all comes down to freedom, appreciation, consideration and most of all manners. IMHO Jude BTW thanks Deni |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,bunny Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:27 AM I went to see Joan Baez a while back and she didn't mind people singing along with her. Do you not think you are bit a tiny bit self important- after all you ar singign in a pub not performing brain surgery. Perhaps you should have a couple of drinks dear, and relax a little. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 20 Aug 01 - 09:53 AM Forty Two
I don't think we are too far apart.
The original post was from a fellow musician, not a member of the public but it matters not. The best sessions, in my opinion are those that involve as many folk as possible. If that just means a members of the public, clapping along, I would consider those to be a musician anyway.
Anyone who makes music is a musician.
When musicians think that they are more important than others, and more important than the music, they do themselves and music a disservice and will be in danger of being perceived as unfriendly, with some justification.
Why hold, what is in effect a mutual back-slapping exercise in a public place? Do you need the public there, so they can feel excluded or just to admire ones brilliance?
The public can be difficult, I know but you are inflicting yourselves on their night out. They have not asked you to play, paid for or even come to hear you at all.
You do get some members of the public who are a pain in the bum however. Have you come across the control freak, who will after a few drinks insist on organising who and what will be played? The most recent one stopped the music and rounded in and pointed at one individual who was quite happy just playing along in the background, and insisted that he played a tune on his own. This was much to the discomfort of this individual and caused him and everyone else present much embarrassment. Maybe it is possible that you can appear too friendly? |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: KingBrilliant Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:06 AM Bunny - nobody is being self-important. Its all a question of preferences, the prevailing mood of a session, etc. Having put in some effort to prepare the presentation of a song its not unreasonable to want to present it that way. As various people have said, it can be offputting for someone to join in unexpectedly, and folk is full of variations - they may not join in with the same variation. It can be particularly offputting to people who are new to performing. Nobody is saying that joining in should be discouraged generally - however we would like to be able to express a preference. If people ignore that & join in anyway then its not the end of the world & I'm sure most singers would accept it with good grace at the time - we don't want to be control freaks. I believe that singers should tolerate the occasional unexpected accompaniment & also that participants should tolerate the occasional adamant soloist. Most times it just kind of works itself out without anyone having to get uptight. Also - Joan Baez is very experienced and gets plenty of chances to shine solo - its not a very fair comparison. Kris |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: KingBrilliant Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:27 AM Shambles - I was posting at same time as you, so my reference to control freaks is coincidental & not related to yours - just in case confusion ensues...... The CF to whom you refer was probably labouring under the delusion that he/she was being helpful encouraging and complimenting the poor embarrassed guy. I've seen similar happen a few times. It can be quite funny, so long as all the musicians see the funny side. At a festival campsite recently someone gave feedback the next day on what they'd overheard of a bunch of people singing & playing. They pointed out who they thought was good & who was bad etc, and had completely missed the point that it had been a bunch of people enjoying themselves & that relative abilities hadn't been an issue. - sort of related I think - but maybe a bit drifty, sorry. Kris |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: forty two Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:35 AM Shambles - yes I agree we're not too far apart. Me too, I don't mind if anyone joins in. No not true!! In my local there are old pedal operated Singer sewing machine tables and sometimes someone pedals away to the beat squeaking the mechanism. It's annoying and very hard to keep in beat!! Surely, people, we must agree that Singer sewing machines are not musical instruments LOL
|
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: KingBrilliant Date: 20 Aug 01 - 10:44 AM Aha!!!! So now we have unwanted accompanying Singers?? The plot thickens. Singers? who needs 'em.... And do these Singers ever perform unaccompanied? And if anyone joins in do they get needled? Kris |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Peter Kasin Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:19 PM Now I know why this is called a "thread." |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:25 PM So... the discussion has veered from unfriendly folk musicians in pubs to session ettiquette - violations of which result in unfriendly folk musicians. Would it suffice to say that if you are not well versed in the style of the tune/song being presented you sit tight and appreciate it? If you are well versed, and can lend a bit of support, can you be subtle in requesting to join in? Is the onus on the person desiring to join another in making music on a particular song/tune or should the lead/soloist be put in a position of saying "I'm doing this solo so don't think of joining in or else"? Finally, my PERSONAL pet peeve, non-performing observers attempting to clap in time with the tune, and not quite being there. (One session I was in, a rather intoxicated fellow managed to clap EXACTLY 1/16 note off the beat - I doubt he could do it when sober.) Regards - |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Peter Kasin Date: 20 Aug 01 - 05:25 PM I think the onus would best be on others to wait for a cue from the singer, therefore making it unnecessary for the singer to say "don't accompany." If that is understood by all attending, no problem. getting that understood to a newcomer is something else, hopefully to be dealt with tactfully. -chanteyranger |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Rich (bodhránai gan cookie) Date: 21 Aug 01 - 12:38 PM Regarding singing along with Joan Baez, chances are, she had a PA system and monitors. I've yet to play in a session where these are provided. There have been a few players at sessions in recent memory, where I'd have taken this or that player out of my monitor mix, had it been an option. I'm getting ready to head home from a visit to Chicago. While here, I played a a number of sessions, a couple of which I've played before. There was one that was absolutely remarkable last year, before people found out about it. After about a half hour of it this year, I found myself staying only out of courtesy to the session host who'd invited me. It's really sunk. It only takes one or two loud players playing out of time to tank an otherwise good session. I play the instrument that most people find it easy to be unfriendly to, and barring being introduced by a regular, I often get a few looks until people see that I'm not "one of those bodhrán-owners" and that I can play quietly in time, and trade off with other percussionists. I can't say I blame the regulars of a given session for not throwing down the red carpet. Chances are they've been stung by being too friendly before. Rich |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:18 PM Some places the informal house rule is people join in playing unless they've been told not to, others it's the other way round. I think I prefer the former, but either way works fine.
Confusion arises if people misunderstand which way it is. But that only happens if they haven't bothered to find out, by asking or observing.
And of course every now and again you're going to run into someone who is totally socially inept, like the one rock chick tangled with. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:30 PM In most of the mostly instrumental sessions I go to, the "rule" (which happens to be the way I prefer things) is, if someone starts a tune, it is a cue for everybody to join it but if someone starts a song no one joins in unless asked unless of course the song is a chorus song - I'd be very dissapointed if no one joined in if I sang Johnny Jump Up for example. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:37 PM Johnny Jump Up??? Jesus..... |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Aug 01 - 01:49 PM When I talk about unaccompanied and joining in or not , to me that's musical instruments joining in I'm referring to. The only occasion I've ever come across the house rule was don't join in the chorus was in a folk singing contest - and even there, it had to be formally stated. |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Jon Freeman Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:15 PM Oh well, BAS, I'm off to a session in about an hour and you'll be pleased to know I won't be singing it or singing anything for that matter. Just Irish music played on pipes, flutes, fiddles, guitar, bazouki (at least that's the regular crowd) and me rattling along on the banjo. It's the best night of the week for me. Jon |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: Frank Maher Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:48 PM If You want a Friendly Atmosphere,come to Newfoundland... You can Play anything,Sing anything,Butt in Anytime.. If You Sing out of Tune,We'll Tune the Instruments to Suit Your Voice...No Stress,no Petty Jelously,just the Love of Music and Musicians...We even allow Bodhrans:-)) |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: The Shambles Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:55 PM Is there a bus? |
|
Subject: RE: UNFRIENDLY FOLK MUSICIAN IN PUBS From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:55 PM And Newfoundland's St John's University even has the good sense to have an overseas campus here in Harlow! (But there never seem to be any musician students, or if there are, they keep out of the way of us locals. Which ius a shame, they'd be very welcome. And if they want to find out what's on, they can visit |
| Share Thread: |