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Music Annotation Software Question

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JohnInKansas 23 Feb 03 - 07:12 PM
Cluin 23 Feb 03 - 08:04 PM
MMario 23 Feb 03 - 09:08 PM
JohnInKansas 23 Feb 03 - 10:43 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Feb 03 - 06:29 AM
pavane 24 Feb 03 - 07:32 AM
Grab 24 Feb 03 - 08:35 AM
JohnInKansas 24 Feb 03 - 01:39 PM
Mark Clark 24 Feb 03 - 02:04 PM
JohnInKansas 24 Feb 03 - 07:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 07:12 PM

Good link, Nigel, but one has to question why the grace note is written as a grace note, rather than just as another (in this case) sixteenth note - if it's going to get half the value of the following note.

It's almost impossible to quote general rules about how grace notes and other similar "shorthanded" embellishments are "usually played" without appending "... in this kind of music." since various styles (and various instruments) each have their own practices.

A classic work that discusses "ornaments" in some detail, and that comes close to what seems to be current practice for the "folkish" fiddle players I've listened to, is The Art of the Violin, by Pierre Marie François de Sales Baillot, originally published in 1831 and now availabel in a translation by Louise Goldberg, Northwestern University Press, ISBN 0-8101-0754-6 (paperback) for about $30 (US). I don't think he'd buy the "half the following note" bit.

Tomás Ó Canainn, in his Traditional Music in Ireland (1978, Ossian Press, ISBN 0-946005-73-7) would also disagree. He seems to feel that these ornaments "are too complex to be written" due to the local variations and the distinctive differences applied for different instruments.

Leopold Auer, in his 1921 Violin Playing as I Teach It, (Dover reprint 1980, ISBN 0-486-23917-9) doesn't fully agree with either of the above, although he's closer to Baillot and certainly would reject the "half value" interpretation.

Gardner Read, in Music Notation: A Manual of Modern Practice, 1979, Taplinger Publishing, ISBN 0-8008-5453-5 doesn't take an insistent stance on how they should be played, althugh he gives some variations. He does give a splendid variety of ways you can indicate them on paper - with the warning to the effect of "it's really better to write it out, if it matters."

Printed notation almost never adequately represents what should be played. After all, it's meant to be played by musicians - not robots.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 08:04 PM

Okay, Ed and Mario... the last version of NWC I had was 1.3.

I remember suggesting to the makers that they incorporate gracenotes in their software too a few years ago, but never heard anything about it. I really should follow up on stuff more.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: MMario
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 09:08 PM

1.5 up I think.


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 10:43 PM

For those thinking about the "high end" programs, I'll confess that I've had a little problem getting my obsolete 15 year old Rhapsody to live with XP, so decided to take another look at Sibelius.

Couldn't find my old demo CD, so I downloaded the "new and wonderful" Sibelius 2.1 demo. I haven't had a chance to really "get into it," but for the moment at least, I'm a little underwhelmed.

First look only - the new version (demo) is "cosmetically" cleaner looking, and looks a little more user friendly than the old one. It does have a working "help" file - which is a short pdf instruction "how to get started" instruction booklet. Being pdf, it's not readily searchable; and it makes no attempt to answer anything. It just gives you an outline of a "do this" list. I wouldn't say it really qualifies as a "help," although you can credit them with including an "introductory operating manual."

Quite a few things don't work as described (at least so far) and I'm finding extremely erratic operation in simple functions. Open the same file and do the same identical 4 or 5 mouse clicks three times in a row, and get 3 entirely different results - 2 of which lock up the program.

If I can get it to work consistently, it looks like it's capable of good stuff, but I'm not sure it impresses me at this point as being a $600 program ($599 US list, if you buy it from Sibelius).

The good news (good as when they take one boot off of your tes.. tender body part) is that there are a couple of web sources offering it for $399.

The new version includes a "lite" scanned image reader, but if you are actually going to do much with scans, you'd probably want the "PhotoScore Pro" which is an extra $199.

From Sibelius, you can get the "bundle" with Sibelius Pro 2.1 and PhotoScore Pro for $699. The same package is offered by a couple of web discounters for $499. It is a lot cheaper if you qualify for an "Educator" or "Student" discount - but I don't.

Stay tuned - I'm still trying it out.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:29 AM

Having pointed above to what I thought a thorough dictionary, I agree that the appoggiatura seems a little long at half the length of the following note. Unfortunately the reference I gave did not include a listing for an acciaccatura which I had trouble finding since my spelling of it was abysmal. However I remembered the term from my schooldays, and also the fact that this was translated as a 'crushed note' and so was a shorter duration than an appoggiatura. I have now found both together Here
Hope this helps, as the use of the term 'grace note' covers both possibilities, it is better to use the more precise term

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: pavane
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:32 AM

Nigel,
Nice to be accurate with the terms, but I suspect that if I put them in my software, few users would recognise them. Grace note is probably more widely used.


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: Grab
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 08:35 AM

Has anyone tried Denemo/LilyPond (link to the Denemo site)? If not, I'll download it sometime and see if it's any good.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 01:39 PM

Nigel -

There are numerous more specific "names" for things commonly seen in notation, but only "formally professional" musicians - or students while taking their music theory class - are likely to recognize them, even if you use them (properly).

The term "grace note" refers to how the note is typeset. Literally, it means "little note," and in French they're called "petites notes," in German "Kuz Vorschläge," in Italian "appoggiature," and "are literal reductions of full-sized note-forms, without acutal rhythmic vale in a measure, as the time in which they are to be performed must be subtracted from an adjacent beat." (see Read, cited above, p. 238)

In notation, they should be printed a little smaller than a "real" note, and single grace notes should have a "slash" through the stem, both of which indicate that their "time value" is not accounted for in the notation of the measure. Many programs let you do this much of it. The "slash" is usually omitted for multiple grace notes "attached" to the same "real note," - but there are varying opinions on this.

Most sources say that the stem always points up, unless you're notating two "voices" on the same staff, in which case grace notes for the lower voice are sometimes pointed down. Fewer programs make it easy to observe this convention, and it's probably an "optional" in the opinion of many.

If unaccented, the formal convention is that the time for the grace note should come from the preceding note. This is the most common usage, and is what most programs are "thinking" when they put in a "grace note."

If the grace note is accented, which is usually indicated by a "squashed" >, the time is taken from the following note. Many musicians in more formal forms of music use the term appogiatura for an accented grace note, and it is true that it would normally be played with a longer duration than an unaccented grace note, but modern convention is that anything that has a "full note value" should be written as a full note. Using a grace note in the notation should mean at least that it's "not quite" a standard note.

In formal music notation the "appoggiatura," while notated as a "little note" has a specific meaning - but unfortunately a different specific meaning in each of a dozen or so kinds of music. The "true appoggiature" was a construct used in medieval music that is rarely used in anything modern since it is effectively what you get with a simple accented grace note. (Whether calling an accented grace note an appoggiatua is pompous or pretentious depends entirely on whether it conveys a meaning to those to whom you speak, but to be "technically and accurately pompous and pretentious" one would have to specify that it's a "true appoggiatura," since "appoggiatura" alone has multiple meanings.)

Read reports (p 239) that "During the nineteenth century the term appoggiatura [literally "to lean"] was unfortunately confused with the term acciaccatura [literally "to crush"]. The acciaccatura is no ornament at all, but a manner of playing, then releasing part of, a chord in keyboard music. It has, then, no real connection with the ornament under consideration." (Maybe that's how we should notate mando "chunk-chunks"?)

Read includes about a page and a half of samples of the archaic appoggiatura forms, including the slide appoggiatura and the disjunct double appoggiatura but I think those would be of only academic interest here.

Many of the notation programs allow you to put in grace notes. Most of them do not play them back, so if you want them in the midi that you make from your notation, you need to go back into a copy of your notated score and "put them in as real notes," the make the midi from the "messy version."

Fewer of the cheap programs make it easy to put an accent on a grace note - and even fewer will move the accented grace note onto the beat in playback (if they play them at all). Again - make a copy and notate it fully to make the midi.

None of the above conventions can be used in "syncopated" music, where you want an "out of time" leading and accented note. Again, you write it out, or you only give your score to friends who know what your notation means.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: Mark Clark
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 02:04 PM

Grab,

Thanks for reminding me about Denemo. I checked my system and realized I downloaded the current version (0.6.0) last November but haven't made the time to install it to see what it can do.

I have, and occasionally use, the GNU LilyPond package needed in order to use Denemo. LilyPond seems to be the best option for producing a complete music book—music, lyrics, descriptive text, table of contents, index, etc.— and is much easier to use than native MusixTeX. Be warned, however, that you must have a working TeX system installed (with MusicTex) in order to use GNU LilyPond and Denemo.

All of this is founded upon TeX, the wonderful typesetting system created by Donald Knuth and placed in the public domain. TeX and Leslie Lamport's LaTeX macro package, have revolutionized the world of publishing and typesetting. If you're not familiar with TeX, be warned that it isn't a WYSISYG system. TeX users like to think of it as WYSISYM (what you see is what you meant) and is capable of producing much better looking output than a word processor.

There are Windows implementations of TeX available but the one I like best is the teTeX implementation that comes with a complete Cygwin installation. Cygwin is a POSOX/UNIX API for Windows that includes the Bourne again shell (BASH) and nearly all of the GNU software you'd expect in a Linux system. Cygwin lets you run all of this over Windows without needing two operating systems or rebooting your machine to use it. At the same time, there is no need to sacrifice all that UNIX functionality in order to run in Windows.

Keep in mind that TeX/LaTeX/MusixTeX/LilyPond is a very powerful and freely available solution for music publishing but it's probably best reserved for serious propeller heads. Just configuring the software to run at all may be beyond the technical abilities of the average PC user.

Still, if you've got plenty of time and are a patient person, the eventual system will be well worth effort. There is a great deal of music available on the Web in LilyPond notation and I'm guessing that Denemo is able to edit those files directly.

If you decide to try Denemo/LilyPond/MusicTeX/LaTeX/TeX I'd like to know how it worked for you. Please let me know.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: Music Annotation Software Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:52 PM

A little additional on my look at the new demo Sibelius.

I believe they are making a big marketing error in removing the help file from the demo. What looks like a helpfile in the new demo version is actually just a brief "pamphlet" that raises more questions than it answers, and they do not clearly tell you that it's not the real thing. The "user guide" actually prevents you from accessing the "real help," in the way you could in the previous demo.

Several things in Sibelius are extremely idiosyncratic - but with full documentation one can probably work around them. IF my present interpretations are correct, this $600 program is every bit as good (with some adjustment in operator practices) as the $80 Rhapsody I've been using - that was "bought off the market" by the big guys some years ago and can't be upgraded.

So the extra $520 gets me - the same useful capabilities, except that it will run cleanly on XP.

Sibelius does (they say, although you can't try most of them in the demo) do some things my older program wouldn't, like better tab resources, and automation (if it works) of chord insertions. (Rhapsody was only "semi-automatic.") It does appear to have good utilities for "parting out" arrangements - but I don't see a personal need for that, at least at present.

I'm a little concerned about how flexible it is with respect to non-music notations, as almost all text functions seem to be "fixed format" and in many cases "fixed position." I'm sure(?) there are ways to make "marginal notes," but I couldn't find them (yet) in the demo version. It seems a little much to have to save as a graphic and paste into a document just to be able to place "freehand" adjacent text.

The demo version also gives the impression that you can only insert two verses of lyrics in a score - but I can't believe that's sufficient, so I'll presume (for now) that it's just another place where the limited demo documentation doesn't tell you everything.

The bottom line, though, is that it's the most reasonable thing I've found for making printed music that looks like commercial quality stuff (or at least looks as good as what I got with my old program).

I'm not down to the bottom line yet, and although I'm still not fully convinced, it is looking a little better in the performance category - but there's still the price.

John


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