The appeal of 'Singers Nights'

Subject: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Mudcatter
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM

I'll be honest and admit that they don't appeal to me.

Maybe I'm a miserable git, and maybe I've been to the wrong places, I'm prepared to change my mind...

From my experience, 'singers nights' consist of sitting and listening to amateur (used as an adjective) singers, singing songs that I've heard lots of times before, and not singing them very well.

There's the occasional gem, but generally the standard isn't great.

However, lots of people here seem to love them, where am I going wrong?

Mudcatter

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM

So is a "singers night" what i would call an open microphone night in the US? If it is, it's a good place to try out new songs to see what kind of reaction you get from the audience. You're not getting paid for it so you don't feel obligated to play what they want to hear. I would try to play my own stuff or my "special" versions of some old obscure blues songs unless someone specifically requested something. They're pretty interesting sometimes. Well, except for the guy who wants to play 5 Merle Haggard songs in a row.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 12:47 PM

The attraction? and I apologise for shouting but:

NO F***ING MELODEONS!!!!!

It's often a lot quieter and more laid back, it's also a good forum for trying new stuff you've learnt/written or practising for a band gig. However, many the singaround singer has acquired delusions of adequacy for a singing career after a polite reception from a singaround who are too embarassed for them to say they were shite.

And there is something about starting a song alone, and then having 20 or more voices join in on the chorus.... a high that just can't be beaten (leastways, not in a public place and with your clothes on...... unless that's your bag..... er... better shut up now....). LTS

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Mudcatter
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:00 PM

Both replies mention the benefits for the performer.

Is it just a case of putting up with listening to others, so that you get your own chance to perform?

If so, should anyone who merely wants to listen, not bother?

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:22 PM

What's a "Melodeon"? Seems to be a difference in terminology across the big water. True, some of us are pretty bad but some of us are pretty good also. I'm a very good songwriter, singer, and slide guitar player(on a tricone). BRAG BRAG BRAG. I've never heard anyone describe one of my performances as "putting up with it". You gotta take the bad with the good. Besides who among us doesn't secretly like watching a complete idiot making a fool of himself on stage. Same as like a much-dreaded Karaoke bar.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:25 PM

To listen?????????????

Without the song, is a song about the worst example of such a place. Thay are not all quite as bad as this but the all elements are pretty much as you say...

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: JudeL
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:47 PM

You must have been to some pretty dire singers nights if you think of them as "putting up with others". Good ones not only give you the opportunity to hear unusual songs and some amazing singers but also the opportunity to sing harmonies as the mood takes you with others to produce a sound that can sweep you off your feet. Sure there will be the odd singer, or song that you could do without - but that's the time to go to the bar etc. Having said that some clubs do seem to have a problem getting enough singers to attend or make it so over formal that it effectively kills the atmosphere. Jude

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Genie
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 01:57 PM

Is a "singer's night' strictly an Acapulco ...er, a capella open mike?

I'll admit there are crappy singers, just like there are crappy songwriters and instrumentalists. But when the gig seems to demand high instrumental skill, it is not unusual to hear someone who can play well but whose voice is not that great.

Are singers nights any more filled with mediocrity than other open mikes?

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: WyoWoman
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 02:16 PM

Mudcatter, are you a singer? Maybe if you're an instrumentalist, you aren't as interested in vocal selections? Perfectly natural. I like listening to guitars, fiddles, mandos, etc., but after a couple of hours at a bluegrass jam, I start to itch. I like to sing and would rather do a singaround with fellow singers, even if they're crappy, than listen to variations on a them ad infinitum in a strictly instrumental jam.

I do think you bring up an excellent point. I have only been doing singarounds for six years, intermittently, and already I'm wishing singers would try for a more varied repertoire. I love learning new songs and am not enthusiastic about hearing the same stuff over and over. One of the reasons I like singarounds is that, if they're good, I glean new material. But also, I think there's plenty of room for us to sing songs that we've sung a bazillion times just because we love them, love singing them and love sharing them with others.

And I agree with LTS that there's absolutely nothing like singing a song and having 20 voices join in on the chorus. (Americans seem much less inclined to do this than y'all from the U.K.-- a deficiency I think we need to address ... ) On the other hand, nothing is MORE irritating than having someone who really doesn't know the song and can't sing anyway deciding that they need to sing the entire feckin' song with you, in curdled harmony. The chorus, people, the chorus. That's what CHORUS MEANS !!!

WyoWoman, feeling better after the rant of the day

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Manitas
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 03:41 PM

The last folk club I went to on a regular basis welcomed melodeons. he he. They had to - I was one of the organisers.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:02 PM

Yeah, but the club doesn't run any more does it.... Wonder why?????

LTS

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:16 PM

"Pete Seeger taught the world to sing".........

.....and we'll never forgive him for it"!

Rick

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: lady penelope
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 04:23 PM

Towersy folk festival, or rather the pub down the road, hit on a damn good way of getting round the who does what where problem. In one bar they had "it's got to have a chorus" in another they had a kind of free for all ( in direct competition with an instrumental jam in the bar next door, it was quite often amusing ) and in the barn out side, they had a more formal 'sing-a-round'. I have in previous years spent almost the entire festival in the pub, only coming out for specific items on the festival programme.

The Wareham wail works on a similar basis, but I have no idea on their attitude towards melodeons!

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:31 PM

It may astonish some instrumentalists who may hum in an fit of absentmindedness but there are actually people on this planet who LIKE singing. I am a singer first and foremost, any other instruments that I play come far far back. I am not a singer because I am an egoist but because I like to use my voice and I love listening to other voices. Sing around nights sound like something I would love. Our local song circle sounds a bit similar however we don't discriminate against people who also come to play instrumentals, we're just not all good at jamming together on unknown songs with instruments. The first thing I do to learn a tune that someone plays on fiddle or banjo or whatever is start singing it. If I can play it with my voice I've got a good chance of playing it with my fingers.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:47 PM

It works the other way too Soph... Manitas can play almost any instrument (never tried him on the sousaphone but I reckon he'd get something out of it...), but ask him to sing and people run screaming. He can name practically any tune you care to play him, but can he hum it? Couldn't carry the tune if it had handles and a shoulder strap.

I like singing too, I only took up the penny whistle/recorder/bodhrain/spoons out of self defence.....

LTS

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 05:55 PM

Whoops I just re-read what I posted and it seems to have come out in a nastier fashion than I intended.

Liz I think people have an affinity to particular instruments. Guitar, fiddle, piano, clarinet, rcorder, drums, voice whatever. Some musicians are more versatile than others, but I think the greatest pleasure for many musicians is to be able to play their favourite instrument well with others. For me that means singing.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:13 PM

Speaking as one who does to singing folk music what Lee Marvin did to Musicals I prefer the quiet anoniminity of the chorus.

Gareth

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: vindelis
Date: 19 Aug 01 - 06:31 PM

Who says you HAVE to sing? I know someone who definitely sings in the key of H flat, So he reads comic verse instead. Anyway what other public forum is available for new singers or musicans to 'cut their teeth?' We all have to start somewhere.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 06:11 AM

Someone mentioned that over-formality kills the buzz a bit. I'd agree with that. There are some singarounds that are only going to be fun if you're taking a turn & hence have a good reason for listening - ie they are not good entertainment for an audience. There are others which seem to have enough atmosphere to entertain everyone regardless of whether they join in or not. The more entertaining ones are, in my opinion, the ones which encourage chorus songs & where people tend to be singing together rather than taking solo turns.
I suspect that size is important (as always!) - in that a really big circle of singers who are each taking solo turns can be a bit mind-numbing - especially if you are in a really singing mood & know you've got to wait an hour or more before you can have your one song. Definitely in a big singaround I reckon you need to be in everyone-join-the-chorus mode.
Mudcatter - probably the best bet is to go in, have a listen & if you're not enjoying it then adjourn to the bar. You can always return if it picks up a bit. If you really don't enjoy the format then that's just personal choice isn't it - you're not going wrong anywhere, its just not your cup or tea.
Amoret & I both sing, but Mark doesn't - so he can get a bit fed up with singarounds especially if they are very 'trad'. He usually props up the bar, or goes into another bar & finds someone to chat to. We go to an open-mic thing which is basically an amplified version of a singaround (mostly singing with guitar but with some instrumentals as well) - the real advantage of the amplification is that it allows people to chat as well as listen, and that makes it a much more entertaining evening all round. Its less nerve-wracking for the performers as well. I think it is unreasonable to expect people to concentrate on listening to a succession of songs for hours on end (even if content & quality are of a high standard) - I think that's where it can become unappealing.
Kris

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Hawker
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM

As both a singer and a musician, I feel I have to reply to this thread.
I too have sat through insufferable singarounds, where 70% of those there were worse than bad singers, interspersed I have to say, with really great stuff. I have also sat in on some brilliant singarounds where 90% of the singing was 'king brilliant and there was very little poor singing going on. Likewise with music sessions, I have been to fabulous music sessions and AWFUL music sessions, met demented whistle players with fidget fingeritis, demon banjo players with tuners tic, barmy bodhran players with no sense of reason, let alone rhythm - I could go on.....
Point being, we ALL have to start somewhere, I am certain that when I started out in the folk scene I was a balmy bodhran player, and suffered from fidget fingeritis, amongst other complaints! My singing now 12 years on is - I guarantee 70% better than it was then, partly due to practise and partly due to confidence. None of these would have been the case if I had not had the opportunity to share with other like minded people, their greater experience, tips and encouragement. I thank all of you out there who did encourage me, who tolerated my crap singing and rubbish playing, I am by no means perfect now, but a lot better than I used to be.
Try being a little more forgiving! Be encouraging, offer crap singers help, simple tips on breathing and maybe honing the tune, will help this person be a little more bearable.
LTS! Why no f*ing melodeons! The people who took the time to learn how to play them put as much effort into it as you do I am sure into your singing /penny whistle / bodhran / bones etc! (and I can play the Sousaphone! - well I played a scale at my 40th birthday party on one - if I can anybody can!!)
Also, have to agree with you, there is something to be said for 20+ voices joining you on a ripping chorus. Good luck to you all! may you all enjoy your singing even if others dont!
Lucy

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 03:13 PM

When it is good it is very, very good, and when it is bad... you politely wait until he/she stops. I love any chance I can sing and listen to other singers in a live, informal situation.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM

Everybody CAN sing... without lessons... All singing is is sustained talking... if you can talk, you can sing... But not eveybody SHOULD!

At least when an instrument is involved, there has to be a modicum of some kind of musical talent to begin with... or at least the forethought to learn to play the bloody thing...

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 03:27 PM

Singarounds are F***ing Great!
Listen, chat, Participate!
No stagey distance, so don't berate
But positively just; relate!

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 01 - 08:26 PM

Singing a song is three things. There's making a musical sound with the voice. There is drawing other people into singing,if it's a song with a chorus. And there is telling a story or painting a picture. Some people are good at all of them.

If you've got to chose, I'd say the ability to tell the story or paint the picture is the most important. We've all heard people with beautiful voices totally screw up songs, and people with pretty terrible voices out them across brilliantly. And chorus songs are great, but not all the time, relentlessly.

A good song circle provides a setting in which that kind of thing can happen. And I think the best song circles are mostly unaccompanied songs (I mean not accompanied by instruments, I'm not talking about people not joining in on the chorus or refrain)with a song with accompaniment every now and then. And a mixture of all sorts, some loud some quiet, some with choruses and some without.

And if at all possible people taking their cue for what to sing from what's been sung before, so there is a kind of musical discussion going on. I don't mean rigid themes, something much more flexible and drifty than that.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Peg
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 12:39 AM

I don't agree that singing is sustained talking. I think it is possible to communicate a song that way; but I would not call it 'singing."

Maybe because I was classically trained and tend to place a lot fof importance on intonation, phrasing, etc. But I sure as hell know that speaking and singing are two very different things. And GOOD singing DOES require musical talent. A great deal of it sometimes. (Why does everyone think it takes skill and practice to learn an instrument but not to learn how to sing properly?) One would hardly compare Cecillia Bartoli and Joni Mitchell, though both are wonderful singers...but then throw Ethel Merman into the mix!

A lot of this sort of categorization depends on what TYPE of music is being sung. Some people could not sing classlical msuic if their lives depended on it; but most people can at least fudge their way through a folk song; I guess that is why it is the music of the masses. And speaking as someone who has worked hard to become a good singer, I would not want my thoughtful rendition of "Red is the Rose" to be compared to some drunken yahoo's version of "Peggy Gordon," but it doesn;t mean we both don't have a perfect right to sing them in a circle. Anyone who WANTS to "sing" and can only manage to do so by "talking" their way through a song should not be discouraged from expressing themselves.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Ringer
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 03:41 AM

We don't have "singers' nights" - we just don't have guests. We don't have mikes (mics?) or melodeons, either, but we do have an accordion, mandolin & pipes. The latter insert instrumental interludes between singing which is a variety of trad & modern (and Beatles songs also go down well), accompanied & unaccompanied. A good night touches my soul in a way nothing else does: it can be utterly, ravishingly, magical. And a not-so-good night is better than going to the dentist. It's many many years since I paid to hear folk music.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 05:26 AM

And GOOD singing DOES require musical talent.

Well, it all depends on what you mean by good and what you mean by musical talent.

What great traditionalo singers do is not at all easy, and requires a great deal of skill and experience - but it is very different indeed from what a classical singer is doing.

When traditional songs are sung in a classical style, it changes them. It can be done in a way that does not diminish them, but more often than not it is not. Too often you get singers whose attention is focussed on makig beautiful sounds, and lose touch with the meaning of the words.

Rathr than saying singing is sustained talking, I'd say talking is rerstrained singing. I think it's probably that human beings sang before they ever talked, it's the basic way in which we express ourselves and communicate. Babies sing before they talk.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 02:05 PM

Agree or dissagree, that was how a few singing coaches I've known have described singing... sustained talking...

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From:
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 05:09 PM

I ENJOY listening!

I don't sing well, but I like to sing. So, I go to song circles, open mikes, singarounds, and sing along with the singer. Sometimes it's a song I know well, and others, not so well.

However, most of the people sing well. The ones who don't, I can just ignore. I know I don't sing well, so I don't expect everyone to sing well. Since others bear up listening to me, I do listen to the others who don't, according to me, sing well.

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Peg
Date: 21 Aug 01 - 10:50 PM

McGrath; I know what you mean, traditional songs sung in classical style do not tend to sound "right" somehow...

Clinton: they don't sound like very good singing coaches to me. If people actually used their vocal chords singing in the same way as they do speaking, they wouldn't be able to sing for very long...

Subject: RE: The appeal of 'Singers Nights'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 02:40 AM

True Peg, I can sing myself hoarse, yet still be able to talk. I can talk myself hoarse and still be able to sing. I have, on occasions (usually just after Towersey festival) done both. There have been occasions when I could either whisper or bellow, because I'd got a sore throat and the only voice left to me was the projected one, which can cut across a playground of screaming children!

LTS