Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 05:48 AM

I may have mis-posted the link to The Wedding of Lili Marlene but I just re-sent it in a PM to myself, and it's there now

Nigel

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Genie
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 03:02 PM

Also, re the "Marleen" vs. "Marlene" thing, I can't say what other German singers do, but Dietrich sings (if I can use fake phonetics), "...vie einst, Lili Marlehn-eh, vie einst, Lili Marlehn." It's almost as though she's incorporating both spellings.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 04:38 PM

I've always wondered, in respect of that story about it being written to the author's two girlfriends, Lili, and Marleen, what they thought about sharing the same love song...

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 04:48 PM

And as for the idea that standing under a lampost waiting for her bloke implies she's on the game, well nobody ever seems to think that about George Formby's "leaning on a lamppost". (Which is an enchanting little song.)

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 05:41 PM

Marlene, Helene, etc. in German have three syllables, ending in "lay-na." Marleen has two syllables. "Marleen" in the German original rhymes better because the line has the right count.
Hans Leip was a poet and author, as pointed out earlier. The two girls may have been imaginary.
I would like to see the original poem (in German). So far, I haven't been able to find it.
Wolfgang? Bitte, por favor! If you have it.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Genie
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 07:39 PM

Right, guest. Thus, Dietrich sings the song as if it were written, "Wie einst, Lili Marlene, wie einst Lili Marleen." And that makes the line scan without having to sing "...Lili Marle-ehn," the first time the phrase is sung.

Another bit of trivia about the original poem -- was it "Lili" or "Lilli?"

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Gray D
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:44 PM

Wolfgang,
          I'd also like to thank you for this contribution. As an occasional singer I liked Leip's original tune a lot. I hope I get a chance to sing it 'live' sometime.

'Catters who sing,
                   Try the Leip version (from the midi link) out loud. 'S lovely.

Grayd

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:50 PM

There were two boys and two girls! My German is largely lost, but here are the essentials. In 1915, Hans Leip and Klaas Deterts met, two young teachers. They were posted to the Gardefüsilieren in Berlin . There they met two young women, Lili and Marleen. Lili was a salesgirl, Marleen was a doctor's daughter who helped out in a hospital. Their association with the girls was brief, the men were sent off to war.
Hans Leip wrote later that, while waiting for a march to resume, he wrote the poem by the light of a streetlamp in April, 1915. He was both lovesick and homesick. He penned "Und sollte mir un Leid gescheh'n, wer wird bei der Laterne steh'n, mit dir, Lili Marleen?" Leip provided a melody for his composition, but it was seldom played.
Later on in life, Leip wrote a novel that was highly praised by Thomas Mann. The two young men had little contact after their brief friendship in 1915.
Note: Both Lili and Lilli and both Klaas and Klaus in the text.
Maybe Wolfgang will add to my skeletal story. Deterts Leip
The original poem may be found in Google, in German websites.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Genie
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:29 PM

Danke, Guest.

"Und sollte mir un Leid gescheh'n, wer wird bei der Laterne steh'n, mit dir, Lili Marleen?" That means, roughly, "And should something bad happen to me, who would be standing by the lamp post with you, Lili Marleen?" Right?

Genie

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:36 PM

MGoH: The George Formby one is different entirely, in that the words state that he is waiting "in case a certain little lady comes by". So he is not 'on the pull' for just anyone!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:55 PM

I was mistaken, Leip's original poem does not seem to be on the internet. He published a couple of books on poetry in addition to his novels; one has his poem.

Genie, in the words of "My Fair Lady," I think you got it! I wish I could find the poem; it's obviously somewhat different.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:22 PM

Where's the link to Leip's tune, Gray?

(And Nigel, Lili seems to be waiting for a particular soldier, and that doesn't stop people making unfounded assumptions about her.)

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:48 PM

Hans Leip's original poem is printed in Hans Leip, "Die Laterne: Lieder und Gedichte" (1942), which contains his wartime poetry. It also was reprinted in a more comprehensive volume of his poetry. Several websites refer to the "original," but they all are to the the Norbert Schultze tune for which Leip apparently revised the words.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 07:16 AM

Well hidden in the middle of my post from 21 Aug 01 - 09:48 AM is a link and this link is still valid and leads both to the original lyrics (lower left corner after scrolling) and the original tune (lower right corner after scrolling).

I've come to love the old 'too pacifist' tune since I've found it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 03:52 PM

I have found a copy of Hans Leip, "Die Laterne, Lieder und Gedichte" 1942 printing, 20th thousand, Stuttgart (1st printing 1937?). These little German wartime paperbacks are hard to locate, now.
The lyrics pointed out by Wolfgang in his post of 20 Aug 01 at Lili Marleen are the same as those in Leip's book, and in the DT as "Lili Marleen." The website lyrics have one mistake, 3rd verse 4th line- should be ja gleich.
I still wonder if these words are the same as those Leip wrote during WW1.
The tune for the midi of the original melody, pointed to by Wolfgang on 21 Aug 01, does grow on you. I would like to hear it sung to this tune by someone of the calibre of Lale Andersen.

The note to the DT version is incorrect; one of the girls was that of his friend, Klaus Deterts.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 04:00 PM

Dang caps! Should be Lili Marleen or use the one given way up there by Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 10:21 AM

Verse 5 in those lyrics is from 1938, the WWI version ends with verse 4.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 02:37 PM

From one historical standpoint it would be interesting to know Leip's original tune, and it may well be a beautiful one. But it is "Lili Marleen" ("Lili Marlene") with Schultze's tune and the WWII lyric revisions that has the historical significance of being so very popular with both the Allies and the German soldiers during that war, as well as popular with civilians during the same era.

It's kinda like "America The Beautiful" being sung now almost exclusively to Samuel Ward's "Materna" music, even though Bates had earlier suggested a different tune for it.

Schultze's tune is beloved by many of the WWII era on both sides of the Atlantic, even when no words are sung at all.

Genie

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 06:14 PM

Leip's little book, "Die Laterne,Lieder und Gedichte" has five verses to Lili. Mine is dated 1942 (20th thousand) but the first edition was about 1937-1938 probably the first printing of this verse, as Wolggang says. I have found offers of one or two of his pre-war volumes of poetry, but they are expensive.
Is he the same Hans Leip who, after the War, wrote (about 1957 for English editions), "The Story of the Gulf Stream"? It, and other books by this author, sold very well in translation.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM

That original tune for Lili Marleen is really lovely. Thanks Wolfgang.

The standard one has all kinds of overtones, both good and bad. The original has a much more innocent, less world weary, sound to it. Much more a love song. You can't imagine a squad of soldiers trudging along singing it.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 02 - 12:38 AM

Thanks for that link, McGrath.

Genie

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:46 AM

I have just discovered (I should have thought of looking earlier -- Germans are supposed to be thorough!) that a complete archive of Der Spiegel is available on the Web, and that the article I mentioned ("Fruehling fuer Hitler und Lili Marleen") may be read at
http://wissen.spiegel.de/wissen/dokument/dokument.html?id=14319633&top=SPIEGEL
(That is plain text. A click will get you to a .pdf of the original article, including the pictures, but the latter are reduced to black & white and are rather garish.)

In the same issue, you can also amuse yourself with Reagan's inauguration (including a reproduction of an ad in which during his movie-star days he had praised Van Huysen wrinkle-free shirts), a thorough explication of Rubik's cube, and a no-minced-words review of the "Schwulenkomoedie" Taxi zum Klo.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Mar 09 - 11:11 PM

"Fruehling fuer..." is an excellent article, even though some of the shows described don't really sound very enticing. Information on "Lili Marleen" is fascinating.   I'd be surprised if the soldier sent to Vienna to get records only came back with his girlfriend's record collection.   That would likely not be enough to make up the time the Belgrade broadcaster needed to fill, having only 54 records up to that point.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 10:19 AM

A little anecdote - another parody . . .

My Dad was a WW2 veteran and as a young boy, I remember him bringing his Kay guitar out at family gatherings where he would regale us with a small repertoire of favorites of his at the time. He'd play and sing "Red Sails in the Sunset," Zwei Gitarren am Meer" and "Schlafen in die Bahnhof," the last one to the tune of Lili Marleen.

The kids used to want him to repeat "Schalfen in die Bahnhof" as we liked the infectious tune.

It was not until I was in my 20s and learning German that I understood the song I was singing at the age of 7 or so.

One verse - all I remember now - went something like this:

Schlafen in die bahnhof; schlafen in der stadt,
viele zigaretten, beaucoup die chocolat,
zwanzig minuten ist genug; das kleine maedchen, das geht kaputt!
Es ist zeit vergehen nach hause, ich denke dass vergehen nach hause

. . . a lonely, homesick teenage soldier experiencing the pleasures he'd never see again for the small cost of a bar of chocolate . . .

I think he sang "home" instead of "nach hause" and the word order must have lacked the inversion of German, but one can only expect bastardized German under the circumstances!

I suspect there are many bawdy or ribald stanzas written to the tune of Lili Marleen, if for no other reason, the need at the time to change things up a bit.

Joe A.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 11:30 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp2qzmQBRGM

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 11:32 AM

I forgot to add still the original and best, Lale Anderson.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 01:56 PM

The 1939 version sung by Lale Andersen (Youtube)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 02:13 PM

Lale Andersen has sung this song also to its original tune (acc. to German Wiki) but I have not found a tone document.

Another post war bawdy text variant:

Vor der Kaserne, Amerikan Soldat
Mit viele Cigaretten und beaucoup Chocolat
Alles is prime; alles is gut
Nur zwanzig Marks fur ein' Minute
Noch eins, Lili Marlene, Noch eins, Lili marlene.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: meself
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 03:04 PM

Thanks for the link to the Lale Anderson version. There is something wonderfully beautiful about her straightforward, unpretentious, unassuming, unaffected singing.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM

Nice one Wolfgang, although her voice didn`t sound as good as in the 1968 recording, could have been a better quality recording in 1968.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 08:39 PM

The remastered 1939 recording, remastered, is on a current cd. Very good.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Joe_F
Date: 15 Jul 09 - 11:22 PM

I note that Andersen's 1939 performance includes the "Schon rief der Posten" stanza, but in 1968 she has dropped it.

The bawdy stanzas recalled by GUEST and Wolfgang have a counterpart in the Spiegel article (attributed to "ein unbekannter GI"):

Down by the Bahnhoff,
American soldat
Zie haben cigaretten
and a beaucoup chocolat.
Das is prima, das ist gut
A zwanzig Mark for fumph minute.
Vie fiehl, Lili Marleen?
Vie fiehl, Lili Marleen?

Subject: Lilli Marleen - another singable translation
From: Genie
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 11:56 PM

I'm not crazy about either the commonly sung English version of this song or Frank's "fairly literal translation 1998," (ingeb.org) so I've tried to come up with my own "singable translation," based on my own (rudimentary) knowledge of German and on Franks' and others' translations (singable and otherwise).

Please let me know if any part of this is too far off base. I wanted to keep the meaning of the song but without awkward lyrics like "your lips so hale."

Genie
(PS, these lyrics actually do scan correctly. It's just a matter of where you put the rests in the measures.)


Outside the barracks, by the entrance gate,
There stood a street lamp,
That stands there still today.
There we we would want to meet again,
Beneath that lantern we would stand,
As once we did, my Lilli, as once, Lili Marleen. *

Both our shadows merging,
 seeming to be one.

How we loved each other
 was plain to everyone.

I'd stand there for all the world to see
If you stood there again with me
As once, Lilli Marleen, as once, Lilli Marlene.




Well she knows your foot steps,
 your gait so thoroughly.

She's burning every evening,
** though she's long forgotten me.
And should some ill fate fall to me,

Who underneath the lamp will be
With you, Lilli Marleen, with you, Lilly Marleen?



From out this quiet space
 and from this earthly scene,

Your beloved mouth lifts me up as in a dream.
Then when the night mists curl and bend,

By that old lamp I stand again,

As once, Lili Marleen, as once, Lilli Marleen.



*I modified this line a little, since in English we'd be unlikely to just say "we would stand there as once."

** I take it "brennt" in this context means something like "burns with passion," but I'm not sure.   Is he saying that Lilli is still yearning or on fire but she's forgotten him?
Or is he saying her memory burns in his mind but she has forgotten him?

If it's the latter, I'd change the line to something like:
"Her memory burns within me though she's long forgotten me."

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Genie
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:10 AM

BTW, a lot of what I find awkward in Frank's English version is that the accent ends up on the wrong sylLABle in some lines. E.g.,

fairly literal tr. by Frank, 1998 (ingeb.org)

At the barracks compound,
By the entry way
There a lantern I found
And if it stands today
Then we'll see each othER again
Near that old lantern we'll remain
As once Lili Marleen.

Both our shadows meeting,
Melding into one
Our love was not fleeting
And plain to everyone,
Then all the people shall behold
When we stand by that lantern old
As once Lili Marleen.

...

Well she knows your foot steps,
Your own determined gait.
Ev'ry evening waiting,
Me? A mem'ry of late.
Should something e'er hapPEN to me,
Who will unDER the lantern be,
With you Lili Marleen?

5. From my quiet existence,
And from this earthly pale,
Like a dream you free me,
With your lips so hale.
When the night mists swirl and churn,
Then to that lantern I'll return,
As once Lili Marleen.

I guess you could modify the phrasing to avoid those misplaced emphases, but it probably would require running several other words together very quickly. I'm also not crazy about phrases like "that lantern old" in a fairly modern song.   I'd avoid phrasing like that rather.   ; D

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:46 AM

Re the Youtube Lale Andersen version — the column on the right of related options lists an anti-Hitler version in English, 1943; but click on it &, tho the caption confirms that is what we should be hearing, what actually comes is another German version. What goes on here?

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Genie, a few suggestions, literal; I have not tried to match the music.-
Verse 2
Und alle Leute solln es sehn
wenn wir bei der lantern stehn-
And all the world would see our *desire (longing)
as we stood by the lantern...
*sehnen is one of those words with several meanings depending on context, and Leip's poetry is very 'sparse'.

brennen, brennt- another word with multiple meanings, one of which is to be aglow. I take it as- her image glows before me-

Leip's poetry is hard to put into English because we need more words to express his thoughts, thus it is difficult to match the music.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM

MtheGM- the heading anti-Hitler and English is completely misleading.
The version is a parody in German; I have not seen it in print.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 02:25 PM

Thank you, Q.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 06:42 PM

Q: I always supposed that "sehn" was short, not for "sehnen", but for "sehen", and referred back to "Dass sah' man gleich daraus" in the preceding line. If so, then the sense is: Anyone could see right away how much we liked each other; and everyone ought to have seen that.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 07:40 PM

Joe F. -I came up with sehnen after I wasn't happy with sehen, but I won't swear by it.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 09 - 10:20 PM

Marlene Deotich's version on You Tube. Still stunning.


A

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: GUEST,ART HELLYER ABCTV, NBCTV, SATELLITE MUSIC
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:28 PM

I HAVE PLAYED THE NUMBER ONE SOLDIERS SONG OF THE 20TH CENTURY, SUNG BY LALE ANDERSON THOUSANDS OF TIMES IN MY 55 PLUS YEARS RADIO-TELEVISION CAREER.......AND STILL TEAR-UP WHEN I PLAY IT..........NO ONE, BUT NO ONE SANG IT AS BEAUTIFULLY AS DID LALE ANDERSON.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 May 11 - 06:50 PM

Lale Anderson was a great singer of theatrical and popular song, under-appreciated by some.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 May 12 - 10:38 PM

On Lili Marlene/Marleen and a "camp follower" interpretation of the song- they're not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 May 12 - 01:58 AM

Anyone still interested in discussing "Lili Marleen?"

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 May 12 - 01:00 PM

Why? There is little new to add to the many comments in book, paper and online.
Interpretations that depart from the intent of the composer (camp follower, indeed! Why invent false material?) are anathema.

See my post of 25 Oct 02.
Perhaps this could be fleshed out if personal papers exist of Leip and his friends of the time. We know nothing of the details of the two women involved, but libeling them without corroboration is dirty.

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:33 AM

Q, I agree with you about that. I sing a version of this (the Marlene Dietrich version) and think the line that suggested the camp-follower thing for is this.
"Give me a rose to show how much you care,
Tied to the stem a lock of golden hair,
Surely tomorrow you'll feel blue,
But then will come a love that's new
For you, Lili Marleen,
For you Lili Marleen.

Now since the song is from the perspective of a soldier singing about the girl he loves that he met under a lantern outside his barracks, that line always struck me as a bit puzzling. Why would a soldier singing about his girlfriend say that?

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 07:35 AM

Anyone have a clue about that line?

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: meself
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 09:58 AM

Lines like that are not at all unusual in old love songs; they're not much more than filler ("But if you leave me to love another,/You'll regret it all some day" - why would she leave him to love another if she's not a prostitute? while will she regret it unless he's a psychopathic control-freak? People seriously ask these kinds of questions).

Subject: RE: Aug 18th, 1941: Lili Marleen
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jun 12 - 12:51 PM

The lines from the Marlene Dietrich version are not in the original poem by Hans Leip.
They are the invention of the songwriter for Dietrich and have no bearing on the original; they do not bear serious discussion.

The original poem, Lili Marleen, is posted in mudcat, but to repeat the last verse of Leip's famous poem:

Aus dem stillen Raume,
aus der Erde Grund
hebt mich wir im Traume
dein verliebter Mund.
Wenn sich die späten Nebel drehn,
werd ich bei der Laterne stehn
wie einst, Lili Marleen.