Help: europe with children

Subject: europe with children
From: Dani
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 09:05 PM

We are considering a trip to Europe, centering on France and Italy. Details: two children who are 'mostly' adventurous, Spring travel, week/two.

The thread on Ireland got me thinking that this might be a good place to ask for advice and ideas. Of course, music would be wonderful to find, and it would also be great to run into (but not over) mudcatters.

Any thoughts on where to go, what not to miss, what to plan for or avoid? We're not interested in racing from one attraction to another. It would be nice to see places like Rome, Paris, Normandy, but would like to see some of the real countries and people. Is it possible?

I'll just throw this out. Thanks for any advice, especially if you've done something like this before.

Dani

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: Dani
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 09:06 PM

Sorry about the double post.

Did I mention this trip is on a shoestring? Budget will guide the planning to a certain extent.

Dani

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: MarkS
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 10:17 PM

Did this a couple of years ago on a bus tour when my two daughters were 19 and 16. I was a blast. They were old enough to not resent Dad taking lots of pictures and now have fond memories. I can only give you one idea that I would without doubt do again if given the chance. Visit Tuscany in Italy. Do Florence and Pisa for sure, but get to the less visited places like Lucca, Viareggio, and the hill country wine towns. You wont bump into a lot of other tourists and the area will be long remembered. You didnt say how old your children were, but whatever, be sure to take a lot of photos. Even if they are young enough to complain about it, you will get a lot of joy when they get older.
Be sure to post back after the trip and let the catters know how it went.
Mark

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 10:35 PM

My sister has been to Italy twice, with a teenage son the first time and a new grandson who lived there and the second time to visit the now 5 year old grandson who is back in the states. He went everywhere with them and had a blast, even camped in the Alps when he was only a couple or so months old. She has esp. enjoyed Venice and considers it a must for any time spent over there.

On a travel program I watched a couple of years ago, they pointed out that it is really inexpensive, in places like Rome, to rent rooms in the monasteries or nunneries/abbeys. I don't know if children can be accomodated, but the prices were low and included a good solid meal per day, I think it was breakfast.

You might also check with universities to see about dorm rooms. I know in the summertime here, they can sometimes be rented quite inexpensively.

Good luck,

kat

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 12:49 AM

How old are the children? That is very important in considering itinerary, time, what to do/see, etc....

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: ponytrax
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 01:20 AM

My family has traveled quite a lot in Europe with children from small (age 6) to large (age 18) with children.

1. Children's individual natures 2. Feeding early and often-- (there's a funny family story. We arrived in Paris after a week in England with my daughter aged 7. We went down to breakfast at the hotel, my daughter put milk on her cereal, put a spooon ful in her mouth, said "Yuck! there's nothing good to eat in this country!"

We realized she'd never had whole milk before, being a family of non-fat-milk users, and so thought it was yucky.

We went across the street to the fruit store and had the most marvelous apricots for breakfast. She learned to say "Bonjour Madame" to the shopkeepers and loved Paris.

3. Seeing the sights in age-appropriate ways.

--actually one of our family traditions is when we travel, eating in McDonald's at least once in each country. The kids were astonished by the McDonald's--in Paris, what, wine and "fancy" salads at McDonald's?--in Hawaii, what, rice bowls?

There's a marvelous travel book called "Heidi's Alp" by an English woman who packed her family into a motor home and made a tour of Europe. It may be out of print, I don't have time to go look it up, but check it out. I can't at the moment put my hand on it, its probably at my sister's, but traveling with children is a neat thing to do as a family.

So, by all means, go.

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: alison
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 02:37 AM

Camping in europe is a cheap way to do it.... and if you don't want to take your own gear I know there used to be a company called "Canvas holidays" in France.... basically all you needed was a sleeping bag everything was there.... we did it a lot when we were kids... had a great time.....

I recommend the Dordogne area in France..... beautiful scenery for free..... kayaking down the rivers.... beautiful (nice campsite just outside Sarlat)....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: Arnie
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 05:27 AM

Have just come back from a holiday in the Loire valley - the scenery is really nice, with little brownstone villages all down the Loire,chateaux (lots of them) vineyards, fields of sunflowers etc.. The only problem is, you really need a car to get around - and the French drive like lunatics, getting right up your boot (trunk) at 80mph - they seem to only cruise at 90-100mph and overtake in the most dangerous situations. Luckily I came back unscathed but saw two nasty accidents in passing - colliding at that speed doesn't give you much of a chance. Driving apart, the history of the region is amazing and most of the castles offer guided tours with loads of local information. One village we visited still bore a grudge against a neighbouring village as Hugenots from the next village burned down their church in 1587! I suppose it really depends on the age of your kids and your budget - France ain't cheap anymore - but if you can get to the Loire area, I thoroughly recommend it - we used the town Saumur as a base - it's on the riverbank. Good luck!

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 09:40 AM

Go and enjoy yourselves, in France try to make it to Chartres, the stained glass window of the Cathederal is worth seeing, Spain and Portugal are relatively inexpensive. One word of caution though - pickpockets and gangs of thieves can spoil your holiday - take extra care when in large crowds at bus or air terminals. Read the following as an example of one method of distracting you.

A CO Derry family last night warned holidaymakers "to be on their alert" after their dream holiday turned into a nightmare when they were robbed at a Spanish airport.

Limavady couple Jane and Sean McCluskey were left stranded after a criminal gang used a ploy to distract their daughter before making off with luggage containing cameras, mobile telephones, cash, travellers cheques and personal documents in Barcelona.

The mother-of-two said she and her husband had "turned their backs for 30 seconds" to finalise car hire details when two men approached and sprayed her daughter 13-year-old Meabh with mustard.

"Meabh was so concerned about the mess of her clothes that she didn't realise what was happening.

"The other guy kept apologising and saying what a mess her clothes were while the other one snatched the bags sitting on top of our luggage," she said.

"They are organised criminal gangs and very canny people and had obviously been watching us and waiting for their opportunity."

Mrs McCluskey, who described the attack and its aftermath as "traumatic" claimed she saw other people being robbed within the two and half hours they were at the airport.

"People were running around in tears and there were no police to be found.

"When we did get to the police station we were twelfth in the queue. It was a farcical situation. We were very dissatisfied with them."

Mrs McCluskey, who has called for travel agents to warn Irish tourists of the risks in cities where travellers are targeted by criminal gangs, said she intended to raise the matter with the Irish consul in Spain.

"People need to be on their alert. They should put up signs to warn people. A lot of people were clearly distressed. We had a great time in the end and the Spanish were great.

"They were almost ashamed by what they had heard. But it's a big problem. But it appeared to us there was no urgency in tackling it."

Good luck

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 02:01 PM

We have made a number of trips to France with our now five year old, and are going again next month--The French love children, and, if anything, she was an ice-breaker(not like the States, where children are often thought of as a nuisance, and are frequently resented)--

As to travel mode, I like to drive, and recommend renting a car, though you should book it before you leave,(for some reason, it is much cheaper). You have much more control over where you go, how long you stay, and, what is most important with kids, when you leave. Even Paris has lots of convenient underground parking lots that are reasonably priced(especially compared to New York) well lit, and clean--

The food in France is always good, not infrequently great, and readily available. There is much to see in France, but you will enjoy your trip most if you stop at little cafes for sandwiches, soups, go into little bakeries and buy little cakes, eat crepes, sugared popcorn, or hot chestnuts from vendors in the parks and on the streets, and make sure to drink plenty of wine when you eat--Every village has a bakery, and one or two small, good restaurants--best to try the local specialties, which will always be good, rather than looking for what you think is your "favorite" dish--

Provence is a wonderful place to visit, with all the villages, fortresses on hillsides, and such thing--it is also a great place to buy gifts--The Loire is great, as well, their are many Chateaus, the country estates/palaces of royalty, that have been restored as historical/art museums--

The Palace at Versailles is a worthy destination, as is Monet's house and gardens. Surprisingly, the Japanese Gardens, complete with bridge and waterlillies, look very much like the pictures that he painted--

One thing I suggest is, when ever possible, take the boatride--there are boat tours of various sorts everywhere there is a major river (Paris, for instance) and it gives you a chance to be outside and see get an overall view of a place, so you feel like you're really been there--you generally get to do it sitting down as well, and without having to deal with traffic--

Oh, and I disagree strongly with Arnie on the French drivers, I would much rather drive in Paris than any American city--the are better trained, much more attentive, and there is very little, if any, of the "road rage" that is so common in the States--Still it does take a while to get used to the way that they pass, which is exactly as Arnie desribes, but when you realize that the drivers are attentive, and not malicious, you will take in in stride, and even begin to do it yourself--

One final word, and that is that there is nothing that is a must see--what is important is that you get out and enjoy whatever you do--the Louvre for instance, is vast and vastly overrated, it is generally full of obnoxious tourists, and, in addition to a few masterpieces, there is a lot of very unimportant artwork there--Your walk along the Seine, on the way to the Cathedral of Notre Dame, will be as wonderful as a tour of the Catherdral itself, and you may have more fun walking through an open market in a village that you are going through than you do at the Eifel Tower--

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 03:42 PM

As one who spends half his time in Paris, I can attest there is much great advice in Ted's recommendations. Not only is the food nearly always better in France, it is better for you -- fresh, local ingredients, and perfect portions, as opposed to the invitations to obesity served at most American restaurants. I have rented French cars of all classes, and they are MUCH better than the equivalent American models. I agree with Ted that French drivers are on the whole quite proficient. Many Americans, who are used to the inane (and dangerous) practice of driving "any lane, any speed", are at first surprised by the French logical adherence to a strict hierarchy of speed: if you ain't passin' someone on the highway, you're meant to be all the way to the right. No drifting and dreaming in the passing lane à la nearly every Interstate here.

But I digress. In the French countryside, you and the kids can look for market days and find some wonderful local delicacies at bargain prices. And speaking of bargains, with the current strong dollar, a fabulous 3-course dinner can be had for $25 -- in Paris! Less in the country. If I still had young kids, I would love the opportunity to broaden their concept of what's good to eat: I have seen American kids in Paris wolfing down mussels, so I know it can be done. (They come with great french fries, which helps.)

Happily, no one here has complained about those "rude, arrogant" French, which means that you are hearing from people who have actually been there in the last 15 years. And no references to "rich, creamy sauces". Hooray! It's only been about 20 years since these started disappearing from most French cooking, but it's nice to see that reality has at last caught up.

I can understand one feeling that Louvre may be overrated. I still think there is too nuch great art there to ignore, and, for kids, there is a GREAT food court, with choices ranging from burgers to tapas to Moroccan. The visit that I always feel is expendable is to Versailles -- I'd much rather see the gardens at Giverny for the sixth time than the playground of 18th-century royalty for the second.

I envy anyone getting to introduce kids to Europe for the first time. Hope you all have a blast.

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: Dani
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 04:01 PM

Wow!

Thank you all so much. I'm getting more excited about this trip all the time. Had some friends tell me we were nuts to even consider it, but you've got me convinced.

BTW, girls are 8 and 11.

Would LOVE more details on renting cars, etc, if y'all are willing to share. That is exactly what we had in mind, the freedom to roam where the spirit takes us.

Is it likely that we can wing it with accomodations, or is it best to be prepared ahead?

Dani (who is just DROOLING at the thought of REAL FOOD everywhere!)

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 05:36 PM

Like I said, call Avis (ah-VEES) or Hertz here, and ask about rates--don't forget to ask for a mid-sized car, as the French have some really tiny cars--also, the speedometer will be metric, so be prepared--and even the French Fords are great--diesel engines are common, because they consume less fuel, if you get one, don't put regular gasoline in by mistake. Also, be ready for the fact that gas prices are given in francs per liter, often work out to four and a half or five dollars to the gallon--no one complains their about it, either--

I generally just take my VISA/ATM card, and charge as much as I can--there are ATM machines most places, so I get pocket money there, without having to worry about getting the best exchange rate, or being gouged on service fees--

We usually stay with friends when we are there, but we have had good luck finding and booking rooms for side trips on the internet--maybe Armen has some tips--

I didn't really mean to dis the Louvre, meant only to point out that there is a downside to it, though you probably ought to go--

Read as much as you can before you go--you will enjoy it more when you are there. I always carry two books with me, A Travelers History of France(so I can get a little general history on wherever I happen to be), and Blue Guide France, which is sort of the obsessive/compulsive guide, which is a collection of 165 itineraries, describing towns, histories, distances, and even providing the heights of buildings and lengths of bridges, just in case you need to know--I never even attempt to follow the itineraries, and would be very wary of doing it--

For what it is worth, the French in general, seem to be a bit vague about history, and you will often find yourself in a tremendously historic looking place that features a placard with only a few unsatisfactory details, and no one being able to answer questions about anything--French history is a knotty business, and there is an unspoken feeling that if people knew their history better, it would make it even harder for them to get along with each other than it already is--

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 07:15 AM

AVIS and Hertz are expensive, however . . . there is much cheaper car hire available in Europe. And if you're heading "off the beaten track" then you don't want a large car . . some places weren't built with cars in mind.

Normandy/Britainy are good for meeting "real people" - but some of them donn't speak English! In general I'd say the French aren't the friendliest people on this planet, however (a few whis some of our French friends endorse . .) - although clearly there are "noble exceptions".

However if you are on a limited budget Spain is almost certainly your best bet . . (but then again it's our favourite country in Europe for "tourism".)

As has been noted, kids are generally appreciated far more in Southern Europe (Spain, most of France, Italy) than in the UK and US.

As for the danger of robbery - well, I'd say it was less of a risk than in the US, although "reasonable precautions" are always wise - and, of course, if you do have such problems they cause much more difficulty "overseas". (We never travel abroad without money belts!).

I'd recommend the Rough Guides (www.roughguides.com) - excellent guides (including "context" information), very cost-conscious, realistic on matters of personal safety etc., wide range of "cultural" info. as well as the "places of interest").

G.

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 08:14 AM

Best to get several budget travel books for Europe, as some are good in some ways, bad in others. The "Let's Go" series is the best overall one I've used in my travels to Europe in terms of best money value, and most extensively researched and currently updated. But don't overlook the regular travel guides either--and watch the PBS travel program "Europe through the Backdoor" for great tips and inspiriation,and watch them with your kids! Include them in the planning stages, they'll have a much better time! Many libraries carry the series on video, and have other travel videos too. Don't carry the books to Europe though--either rip out the pages you need, or photocopy them.

Depending on how your trip is set up, you may not need to hire a car for the entire trip. Cars are a pain in the ass in big cities, where you can walk/bus/boat, etc. everywhere, and the experience is much more pleasant than dealing with parking, traffic, car thieves, accidents. Save the car hire for when you are in the countryside, where there aren't any comfortable/practical alternatives for transportation. Because of your limited time, I'd either do an express train or fly between Italy and France. Otherwise, you'll lose valuable time driving between the two.

But book your car hires in the States before leaving, as it is considerably cheaper. Also, ask for discounts--like AAA, that sort of thing. Also research your lodgings in the cities in advance, and go for the best quality, least expensive, most centrally located to where *you* will be touristing, lodging you can find. Your centrality to the sites/areas to visit makes for the best use of your time and money on such a short trip. If you have to pay a bit more for location, location, location it is money well spent. Just budget for it, and remember that you will save time and money by not having to pay to take public transport/taxis/rental cars to most your tourist destinations.

Instead of paying for all restaurant meals, plan to buy some meals you can picnic with, eat in your hotel room when exhausted, on the train, etc. Also a great way to try the local food.

Definitely book your big city lodgings in advance. For a two week "first time" trip, especially with kids, I'd book all my lodgings in advance, and if there is a need to do it, reschedule/move lodgings once you are there. Finding lodgings on the fly might sound wonderfully romantic and whimsical, but if you've only got a week or two, you'll have much too much stress about it if you don't book in advance. You will also spend valuable time looking for the perfect lodging, and settling for whatever you can get when you are tired, crabby, hungry, culture shocked, etc.

You have to go with the attitude that it won't be the only trip you ever take to Europe. Look at it as a lovely introduction to a new love, and you'll get a whole lot more out of the experience.

Take twice as much money as you think you need, and half as many clothes. Make sure everyone has really comfortable walking shoes For 8 and 11 year old girls, this doesn't mean fashion stuff! Which could be cause of contention. Head them off at the pass by getting them really good quality sneakers.

Take favorite comfortable clothes that will travel well. Schedule your laundry trip at a rest/respite stop, and find out where the best laundromats are in the guide books. I recommend finding a laundromat that will do the laundry for you--it saves time. Might seem like a luxury, but it isn't at all for a two week trip. Again, just budget for it.

With kids that age, make sure you plan excursions which interest *them* even if you aren't particularly interested in the sites yourself. They deserve to get something they value at their age out of the trip too. Nothing is worse than seeing the looks on kids faces on holiday which are glum and grim from being dragged from museum to monument to museum by parents who haven't taken the kids into account--and as a seasoned traveller, I see it a lot. But it really doesn't have to be that way at all.

Enjoy!

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 08:22 AM

Sorry--I also wanted to mention that if you are going to use Eurail passes--and you should definitely research them as they are generally an excellent value if you buy the right package--they must be purchased in advance here in the States. That said, you could buy them as far in advance of the trip as you can, and save on the last minunte expenditures. Same with your passports--buy them now if you don't have them, so it doesn't end up being a last minute trip expense.

And I also encourage you to look to the Usenet travel newsgroups too--you can glean some really good info if you read them for a few months religiously, get to know the knowledge posters, etc.

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 11:53 AM

An important advantage of booking accomodation in advance is that you can leave your luggage there immediately on arrival . . Well-loaded parked cars (especially hire cars) ARE a favourite target for theives. Not so much of a problem if you're travelling "off the beaten track", though - which seems to match your intentions.

Oh, and with kids I'd suggest Italy and France in one trip is too much (unless, possibly, they are teenage "culture vultures . . )

G.

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM

The only thing about driving in France that I remember is a local telling me that the speed limit signs were "for example" only... which is why some folks go 40 (km/h) and some 140, on a highway with 100 as the posted limit.

I've traveled in Europe AS the child, and the main thing I remember taking the boredom out of all those churches was trying to figure out who the saints were by seeing how they were martyred. Great quiz stuff... and as a parent who has now traveled with children, do a lot of zoos and aquariums and suchlike. Amusement parks. One child thing traded for one parent thing, worked for us... enjoy!

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 02:33 PM

Very good advice, here, GeorgeH, and if you have some other good auto rental options, please post them--and, if anyone can recommend places to stay, that would be good(with prices that you might have paid, and what time of year it was, as it varies drastically)

Guest made a very important point that I will repeat--the less you take, the happier you will be--The most horrible part of traveling is shlepping suitcases--so the fewer there are, the better. Think carefully about what you take--particularly avoid bulky clothing, like heavy sweaters and blue jeans--take things that you can wear many times times without cleaning,lightweight dress slacks and knit tops or shirts, good, they take up much less room in the suitcase, and can be worn many times--It is good to find out what the weather will be like at the time you are traveling--no need to pack for weather you won't experience- You can buy stuff while traveling, and it is fun to shop--I carry a folded up duffle bag in my suitcase which turns into a suitcase for the stuff I buy--

Also, I think it is important not to try to go everywhere you ever dreamed of on this one trip--once you go, you go back--remember that traveling takes time away from vacationing--Don't go for less than two weeks, especially if you are considering multiple destinations, too chaotic--

A couple extra points--there are interstate type highways, but be ready for the tolls, which are considerably higher than you'd expect in the states-in France, they have a lot of rest areas, many with extensive shopping and eating--you can buy wine in the cafeterias in the service areas, which is a little disconcerting--also, if you happen to go to the beach, even in the towns, you will see some women casually walking around wearing only the bottoms of their bathing suits--don't stare, and don't do it yourself, unless you are young, attractive, and good at pretending to look casual while everyone is staring at you--

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 03:49 PM

The best thing about taking the kids away is the thought that you don't have to bring them back; DO YOU?

Jock

Subject: RE: Help: europe with children
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 03:58 PM

When we travelled to Britain with my 17-year old son two suimmers ago, we each had "destinations". He chose such places as Loch Ness, Whitby (for the Dracula connection), the Hard Rock Café in London, a play with "somebody famous" in it (we saw Cate Blanchett in "Plenty") and so forth. Your daughters would no doubt make different kinds of choices, but I think it'd be important for them to have some things that *are* their own choices; it would also make them more open to finding enjoyment in the adults' choices, plus it would encourage them to do some research on the country before they go.

We had a rental car and so were able to be spontaneous -- many of our best experiences involved picking things off the road map, or from roadside signs (Cairnholy in Scotland and High Rochester in England, for example). Also, our son became the official navigator, sat in the front with the road maps and guidebooks, read to us everything about every town we came to, and so forth. It was a very formative experience for him (and he did a much better job than his mother could have...). Despite the younger ages of your daughters, I would guess that you can find similar ways of making them feel involved.