BS: Celtic Music Collection

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: hesperis
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 12:02 AM

Which mudcatters would I ask abut more information on the Welsh folk tradition? Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST,Harry O'Prey
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:26 PM

Who is taking my name in vain ? I may be still performing, but anonymous writers do neither myself nor John Moulden any favours by throwing our names about at random.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:06 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:55 PM

Peg,

Because some of the music Steeleye Span plays are Celtic, does that mean it is helpful to define/categorize them as Celtic musicians? Or suggest that the type/genre of music they perform is strictly Celtic?

That is what I'm getting at. In the last 10 years especially, tons of British musicians have covered Celtic tunes, but I wouldn't "define" them as Celtic musicians.

The original request was for "Celtic music from the traditional to the contemporary."

When I see Celtic and traditional in the same sentence, I cringe. What it usually means is the person is looking for (as a number of others have pointed out) either Irish or Scottish music. I also presume they are looking for musicians who perform that genre of music for a living, not occassionally dabble in it.

I'll grant you there are some British music acts which incorporate a lot of Celtic music in their repetoire. I'm not saying they should be excluded at all. If you look back at my original post to this thread (03-Sep-01 - 02:35 PM ) should have made that pretty clear.

So yes, for the most part I do consider Celtic musicians to be musicians with a Celtic ancestry(ies), which I find to be the most numerous, and also people with non-Celtic ancestry(ies) who play Celtic music exclusively, which I find to be very few.

Hope that clears up something that really isn't all that complicated, unless you try and define June Tabor as a Celtic singer.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM

To throw in my tuppence - MANY people - myself included - use the term "Celtic" to describe music (strict traditional and folk, or music based on those origins) of Scottish, Irish, Manx, Welsh, Breton, Cornish and Galician origin. Whether or not this is strictly correct based on academic arguments, I don't care - it is a matter of convenience.

If, however, you mean "Irish" or "Scottish" music specifically - then say so.

There are a large number of people who do Irish or Scottish music trapesing about in psuedo-historical dress playing 12 string guitars who describe themselves as Celtic. I prefer "silly" as a handle for those folks.

Getting off the soapbox now.

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:23 AM

I'd say Clannad's trajectory is from the emotionally powerful to the banal . . .

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:43 AM

Heres a twist to the "celtic" bit. When I lived in Wales, I have, on more than one occasion played tradional Welsh tunes to Welsh people and been accused of playing Irish music. Not because of the way I was playing them but because the people, including some older ones were simply not aware of thier own tradition - harps and choirs, yes but "diddly music" no way...

There are of course good efforts to keep this Welsh music alive and some excellent bands and I think awareness is increasing (in spite of the "celtic" meaning Irish/scottish).

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM

I think Robin and Carreg Llafar are in the States at present. I see that they performed at the Welsh Festival in San Jose last weekend. Robin is a good one to talk to re: the development of the harp ... and he knows a lot about the vocal tradition as well.

I try not to get involved in arguments involving Guests, but I have to say - once again - that the main problem with people who want guidance on "Celtic" music almost always mean Irish, possibly Scottish. If that's what is meant, please say so. I too dislike the term 'Celtic' being hijacked by the Irish-Scottish marketeers.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: CET
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:13 AM

Definitions are a bugger, aren't they?

In the area of Irish song, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Clancy Brothers. They never had a homogenized, mass market kind of sound. Unlike some groups from the great folk scare of the fifties and early sixties, their music has never gone stale. In fact, for quality of singing, I don't think any of the Irish supergroups (as much as I love their music) are their equal.

For more recent Irish singers, I would recommend Dolores Keane and Sean Keane.

I would also strongly recommend The Tannahill Weavers. They were the ones that really got me turned on to Scottish music. They've never done a bad album.

Skeptic, I don't know if your area of interest is really "Celtic" music, or whether it is limited to Scotland and Ireland. There is a wealth of traditional Welsh music available. You could find out a lot by asking about it on the Mudcat. A couple of names that I can recommend are: Robin Huw Bowen and Careg Lafar.

Gareth: Keep the faith. Iechyd da pob Cymro.

Edmund

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Deni
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:27 AM

Peg. You rock!

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Peg
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:52 PM

Guest said:

"Peg, I just don't understand why some people find it so difficult to accept that Celtic music is music from the Celtic countries and their diaspora communities, by musicians from Celtic countries."

I then suggested that Steeleye Span played "Celtic music" because they played traditional songs that originated in Ireland and Scotland...

Then Guest said:

"Nowhere did I say no one but people of Celtic ancestries can play Celtic music." --but they have to be "musicians from Celtic countires" according to you...so what is the difference?

"If one feels there is a thing called "Celtic" music, and agrees that it *does* relate to ancestry and communities in which the music traditions of Celtic peoples were handed down, that is enough for me." --so *does* it relate to ancestry? or *doesn't* it? You are really starting to confuse me here.

"To suggest that Steeleye Span should be filed under Celtic music because Celtic peoples and Anglo Saxon peoples have inter-married down through the centuries is ludicrous." -I did not suggest this, nor do i think the person you are trying to respond to did...but tell me, does Steeleye Span deserve to be filed under "Celtic music" because they play "music from Celtic countries?"

If you are going to impose your definitions on others, please make sure they make sense and are not just arbitrary rambling...

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST,Another Guest
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:30 PM

Why did no-one mention John Moulden or Harry O'Prey ? More to the point. why have they not entered this discussion ? Is it that they have become fed up with the constant misuse of the term "Celtic" to apply to a very disparate range of musics ?

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:33 PM

My thanks to all, both for the recommendations and the interesting discussion.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:16 AM

Forgot Robbie O'Connell, and don't leave out the Breton and Galician people--that stuff is brill, but I don't have any names for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM

Cherish the Ladies
DeDannan(again!)
Jerry O'Sullivan (pipes)
Mick Moloney
Eugene O'Donnell
Seamus Eagan
Seamus Kennedy

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:07 AM

I agree with others on this thread,'Celtic music' is a concept dreamed up by marketing gurus and any arguements as to what is or isn't 'Celtic' is largely irrelevant. Pre-historians tell us there never was a 'Celtic'race or nation, just a series of tribes or peoples with related languages that at one time stretched across much of northern Europe and were absorbed into more powerful empires like Rome and pushed west by successive incursions of Germanic tribes. A proto-Celtic people probably once lived in the Danube basin and would have spoken a language the ancestor of Irish, Welsh, Cornish, etc, but whatever music they had is long vanished.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Gareth
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM

And with the honorable exception of Deri it's another case of "for Wales - see England".

Honestly it's enough to make a nationalist of you.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:35 AM

Nowhere did I say no one but people of Celtic ancestries can play Celtic music.

If one feels there is a thing called "Celtic" music, and agrees that it *does* relate to ancestry and communities in which the music traditions of Celtic peoples were handed down, that is enough for me.

To suggest that Steeleye Span should be filed under Celtic music because Celtic peoples and Anglo Saxon peoples have inter-married down through the centuries is ludicrous.

If the term Celtic is to be meaningful in any way, it needs to have limits and boundaries--this is Celtic, this in not Celtic, no?

There is plenty of music from Celtic countries that *doesn't* get played by English people. Songs in the Celtic languages, for instance. There is no historic record showing London balladeers singing Gaelic waulking songs. What are we to presume from those facts?

I don't care how the person who started this thread defines Celtic. I know how I define it, and I define in a way that at least gives it some meaning in terms of "a people" or "people of a certain ancestry".

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Deni
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

GUEST.

Many parts of England were indeed settled by the Celts, (see press releases by Julius Caesar). Mixed marriages between Celts and Danes, Saxons, Britons were recorded. Where did the children resulting from these mixed marriages go? Everywhere. Which side do they belong to? All sides.

There are songs which were collected in England that are also found in Ireland etc... and have undergone the 'folk process' so far back that nobody cares anymore. (Well there's always someone who cares on the mudcat.)

Celtic Nations (I may be wrong here, and I'm sure someone will correct me) is trying to bring all those together who feel they fit within that culture/spiritual/language thingy, and are being held back by those who try to be 'exclusive'. Added to which there has just been an attempt to prove the existence of 'Celtic' DNA in Welsh people. So far it would seem none of the thousands tested are 'Celtic'. It is a debate which will continue to rage on the Mudcat. (Numerous threads exist on what is Celtic music. It is truly a nebulous concept which probably only came into being when used as a marketing strategy, since no-one really knows what it is or whether it existed) **** QUESTION Does anyone remember when they first heard the term, Celtic applied to anything outside of an ancient history book? Answers on a postcard... ****

We're all trying to promote 'folk' music (See separate threads on mudcatters trying to define folk music) here and we should continue to do that by fair means or foul until the whole country gets the message.

If you decided to go and live in Spain, would you expect local people to tell you you can't play their music? From what I've seen of the folk scene in Cornwall,for example most of the stalwarts are not Cornish; they come from all over, but the important thing is that they feel somehow linked to the music and culture. Without people like this, songs and traditions would die.

I'll click now before I change my mind and delete the whole message. Cheers and speak to you all soon, Deni

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:27 AM

Arcady
DeDanann
The Bothy Band
The House Band (Ged Foley et.al)
Mary Bergin
Moving Cloud
Sliabh Notes
Martin Hayes (with or w/o Dennis Cahill)
Dervish
Danú
Nomos
Altan
Padraigín NíUllaighin
Boys of the Lough
Beginish
Dolores Keane
The Black Family (and/or Mary or Francis' solo stuff)
Kornog (Breton supergroup)


To name a few,
Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Peg
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:39 PM

Excuse me, Guest, but I do not think you are any more qualified to speak to what the original poster meant by "Celtic music" than I am.

I tried to offer suggestions based on a flexible definition; you chose to impose a more limited definition. Until the original poster defines what he/she means, neither of us is "right."

You are just gonna have to get over yourself, I'm afraid.

BTW another excellent "Celtic" artist (from Canada! go figure!) is Loreena McKennitt...

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:18 PM

Skeptic, within the Irish stuff, following the path you seem to mention and prehaps the "celtic" label, I'd suggest you follow Donal Luney - he seems to have been involved most places at some point or other.

An album I love not metioned above is "The Barleycorn" by the Johnstones, which has some early work of Paul Brady on it.

Whatever you do, don't miss out on others though, I've heard little of Natalie McMaster mentioned above for example but sufficient to feel she is something special.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:02 PM

Peg,

I just don't understand why some people find it so difficult to accept that Celtic music is music from the Celtic countries and their diaspora communities, by musicians from Celtic countries.

Just as Latin music is music from Latin American countries and their diaspora communities, by musicians from Latin American countries and their diaspora communities.

It is my personal opinion that the English vs Celtic debate is a phony one, waged by some within the English folk community who are peeved they aren't the center of the folk universe now, as they were during the earlier British revival of the 50s and 60s.

Which has always struck me as green eyed jealousy and begrudgery.

But then, that's me.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Peg
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 08:17 PM

Guest; that was kinda my point: what defines "Celtic?" The group or the music? Yes, Steeleye Span are English, but they sing songs from Ireland and Scotland; see what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:35 PM

For Irish music:

Definitely check out Kevin Burke's bands--all of them.

Planxty. Skara Brae. And I second Bothy Band.

Andy Irvine, Dolores Keane, and Christy Moore.

Luka Bloom, Sharon Shannon, and Sinead O'Connor.

The Black Family.

Liam O Flynn and Donal Lunny.

All of the above have been influential/innovative in one way or another in revival terms, but few of them would be considered very traditional.

Also, for Scotland and Ireland combined, don't forget Relativity.

English isn't Celtic, but that doesn't seem to deter anyone from adding them to Celtic lists of everything.

As good as the English artists listed above are (and many more not mentioned), they really aren't Celtic musicians, industry marketing hype notwithstanding. Many of them do play in the Celtic styles, or include Celtic stuff in their repetoire, but being a cranky old pedantic, I'd stick to the Celtic side.

But if you decide to do the PC thing and let the English be Celts, you damn well better have June Tabor on yer list!

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Peg
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:49 AM

thanks George; I was trying to think of some Nova Scotia musicians that are noteworthy; Mary Jane Lemond comes to mind as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From:
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM

Also look at people like Natalie MacMaster. She blends both traditional and contemporary well. She has recordings which are traditional and others which are more experimental.

For more performers from Cape Breton, look at http://www.cb-music.com. They have listings and links to many performers who straddle the great divide.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Music Collection
From: Peg
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

well, do you mean Irish? Scottish? English? Celtic language songs?

I can suggest some of what I think ae "formative" Celtic groups or albums but since many may differ on what "Celtic" is it may not be popular with others...

(in no particular order)

The Bothy Band

Steeleye Span (they are English)

Clannad (their long career follows the trajectory you describe, actually)

The Chieftains

Capercaille

Silly Wizard

Solas

Pentangle (also English--John Renbourne has also played in other bands worth looking at)

Altan

Martin Carthy/Norma Waterson

Dick Gaughan

Afro-Celt Sound System

Subject: Celtic Music Collection
From: Skeptic
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM

As a self-proclaimed professional audience (haven't got anyone to actually pay me yet, but a few free tickets have come my way. I am open to offers, though.) I'd like to put together a collection of Celtic music that follows the evolution from traditional to more contemporary.

Trying to search the forum didn't get me anywhere. Links to old threads would be helpful from those more skilled at using the search feature.

Not having a lot of money to spend, I'd like to limit it to 20 or so albums. Suggestions for artists and/or albums would be appreciated.

Regards

John