Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:14 PM I think we must be able to talk about these issues in the Mideast. We can condemn the violence, accept the need for swift and sure reprisals when it occurs, and try to understand the terrible losses the Palestinians have endured, including the olive orchards and orange groves that were so important to them. If we don't understand their love of the land, we can't understand their anguish, and why they don't just fade quietly away. I have worked with Palestinians, and they are wonderful people. The nicest people you would ever want to meet. I should say they are Palestinian Americans by now. I would like at some point to go to one of the camps and volunteer. I read the writings of the children there, and they are so sad. All they ask for is peace and they really want playgrounds...this desire for playgrounds comes through and through in their writings...they think in Palestine they will have playgrounds....If a war comes, we (and I, as an Army officer for life) will be killing them...if not with our own troops, with our money, with our munitions. I hope it can be staved off. So far it has. There is hope up until the last minute. But while we have to be constantly on guard against any racist or anti-semitic leanings in ourselves and others, we should look honestly at how easy it is to be anti-semetic against Arabic or Palestinian people. It gets a free ride in most places. What other group can be so easily maligned? mg |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:12 PM Thanks.john |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:00 PM It's easy enough to make a list of the nasty things that happen in other cultures that don't happen in ours, like Celtic Soul did.
An apologist for the Taliban could make an analogous list of evil things that happen in some other countries that don't happen in his. And it could be a perfectly accurate lust, made up of real evils.
And it'd be a lying list because it would leave out the evil things that happened in his country. Just as Celtic Soul's list did in respect of the States or of Israel.
That doesn't mean that it's all the same, and nothing's any worse in some places than in others, because that's not true. But you can find nasty things in the history and even in the present of Christian cultures in various parts of the world just as much as in Islamic cultures. Along with the good.
And now unfortunately the same can be said in respect of some aspects of the Jewish culture. (Though with only 50 years in modern history, Israel has a long way to go to catch up with the evil done in the name of Christianity or Islam over millennia.)
But the point is, there's no room for any of us to excuse our own corner of the ethnic world by pointing energetically at what is happening elsewhere, as a way of to drawing attention from what is happening right here, wherever right here may be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned about the rest of the world, and that we can't try to help if we can - but helping isn't the same as scapegoating. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: DougR Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM Celtic Soul - September 4, 8:28 P.M. post: well said. DougR |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Brían Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM Well, I looked up in myWebster's New World Dictionary and found Marmalade: [O Fr. marmelade < Port. marmelada orig. confection of quinces < marmelo , quince < L. melimelum < G. meli sweet & melon apple. Brían |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Lepus Rex Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:57 PM You're a fucking genius, Celtic Soul. I've really enjoyed reading your anti-Islamic rants on this thread. God bless you, and keep up the good work! ---Lepus Rex |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Gareth Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:58 PM |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST,Celtic Soul Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:08 PM Guest Marie, Have you ever wondered *what* "God chose" them for? Perhaps thousands of years of suffering? There is a line in "Fiddler on the roof" that sums it up (paraphrase), "Lord, I know we're your chosen, but could you choose someone else for awhile?" As a non-jew, I am not in the least insensed by the term "chosen people". I have read what it means in biblical terms. They were chosen to carry a message, as a conduit for information that was eventually to be given to the whole of the world. They were the way to keep the message intact, so that it was not lost. Why is this so threatening? The Jewish tradition, of all the 3 religions that stem from this same root (Christianity and Islam being the other 2) is the one religion that does *not* seek to convert the world. There is a saying in Islamic cultures; "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people". The intent being to wipe out Judaism and then Christianity. I believe that we have stopped looking to the flip side of the coin. Personally, I like living in the States. I can vote. I can get a job. I don't have to do what my Father/Husband/Brother/any male relative tells me to do. I am not in danger of being beaten for not obeying. I am not branded a "whore" for being a non-muslim (A female friend of mine traveling in Egypt suffered exactly this and worse). I do not have to live in fear of being thrown in jail for being a Christian. I am not forced to wear clothing that covers the entirety of my body (to include my face in some countries) whilst my male counterparts walk freely unhidden, I do not have to obtain permission from the male head of my house to travel outside of my country. Of all the cultures in that part of the world, the Israelis are the *least* guilty when it comes to human rights violations in my view. If I had to live anyplace in that part of the world, I would want it to be under the Israeli government, where I am a person in my own right. When we deal with the atrocious human rights issues that women in many muslim nations daily live with (not to mention the treatment that Non-Muslims receive living in many islamic nations), then perhaps the issues the muslim world has with Israel might have merit. As of now, it is very much "picking the speck from thy neighbours eye while ignoring the log in thine own".
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Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM That guest was me at work btw... |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM Marmalade was attributed to a French Chef who cooked for Mary Queen of Scots. When Mary was sick he wanted to make a special treat for her, but food supplies were short. Using old Seville oranges and sugar, he prepared a compot for Marie Malade.... Malade meaning sick or illness. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Ringer Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM I have heard that it was thought to be a specific against sea-sickness (Fr mer malade - with an English word order) but I discount that etymology. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM Why is orange jam called marmalade? I have wondered about this for ages does any body know? thanks,john |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Ringer Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM AliUK: are you sure you don't mean blackberry (not blackcurrant) jam which is seedy? |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Alio Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:31 AM I'm with Bagpuss - why can't we have a conference on this issue in our own country? What are we frightened of? It can't be that we think it doesn't exist - I live on the outskirts of Oldham and taught in Asian 'majority' schools here, so I've first hand experience of the problem. Reading messages like that from "Guest" (whether it's the same person or not) really worries me. I can understand the urge to trivialise it, but I also think that we have to stand up and be counted against bigots like him who are so full of hatred that they can't see the wood for the trees. there's a lot oof re-educationg necessary. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Bagpuss Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:13 AM I didn't mean tautological, did I? What an (oxy)moron I am. Bagpuss |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Bagpuss Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:05 AM No need to be facecious.... I just think that if the conference was more aimed at looking at ourselves and our own problems, and sharing the ways and means we are using to change our own countries for the better, then it might be a lot more useful. I'm sure that makes me a hopeless idealist (yes I know that is tautological) with my head in the clouds, but some of us have to have a bit of faith in humanity. Bagpuss |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Crazy Eddie Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:17 AM "Maybe this sort of conference would proceed better if, before tabling a motion about another country, you should be obliged to admit the problems in your own country" I agree. I can just picture it now. "Hello, I represent (insert country name) and we are a racist country. We've been racist for X years now, but we really want to give up. We are racist in these ways (insert list). We would really like your support in our efforts, and would welcome constructive criticism." Think it will ever happen? |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Bagpuss Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:04 AM The lessons to be learned from the racism conference? 1) Everyone else's racism is worse than your own racism 2) If someone tables a motion you disagree with, then walk out. Don't stay and discuss it. The US and Israel walk out over proposals that brand Zionism as racist and the EU can't decide whether to apologise for, or merely express regrets about slavery. When this conference is set in South Africa - one of the anti-racism movement's great success stories, it is sad to see how it is going to collapse in a heap. Maybe Israeli policy is often racist, but then the London Met Police are institutionally racist and Britain's immigration policies are certainly racist. The court systems of many western countries are racist. We ignore horrendous racist crimes in other countries when it doesn't suit us politically to get involved. The list is endless. Maybe this sort of conference would proceed better if, before tabling a motion about another country, you should be obliged to admit the problems in your own country. Bagpuss |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: M.Ted Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM How about this for Zionism?
I'm on my way to Zion
Come all you well beloved It's got the "Zion" thing, and the "chosen" thing-- |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Sorcha Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:21 AM Yea, Marie, it's sort of like they were "chosen" to suffer more than the rest of us.........and they damn sure have. Look up the theology. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Troll Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM GUEST Marie. Read about just what being the "chosen people" entails before you crititcize. It is a burden that I for one would not want to carry. Jews have held themselves apart (not better; apart) for centuries because their faith told them they must. "Chosen" does not mean "favorite". It means duty-bound to keep the covenant made with Abraham. It's no easy task. troll |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Tedham Porterhouse Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM Art, When I look at the names of the Folk Alliance Lifetime Achievement honorees, people like Paul Robeson, Woody Guthrie, Bernice Johnson Reagon, Pete Seeger, Utah Phillips and Leadbelly, I have a hard time imagining any of them crossing an NAACP picket line into an Adams Mark Hotel for a folk music business conference. If the Folk Alliance goes ahead with the conference while the NAACP boycott is still in effect, I think it'll be the end of the Folk Alliance. I know that I won't be alone in ending my association with it. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM So---Tedham, what do you really think about the Folk Alliance ? |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST,Marie Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM I don't want to seem anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic, anti-Israeli, etc., I have Jewish friends that I get along very well with. But it seems to me that the Jews, as a religion, or as a people, have put themselves above the rest of us since Biblical Days. They call themselves God's 'chosen people', implying that they are better than the rest of us. Perhaps they've been the object of so much hatred throughout history because of that superior attitude. Given that the Jews have held the Palestinian people back since 194? explains the attitude that most people have toward them. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:35 PM Rice pudding only LOOKS like maggots. Actually, it's quite tasty. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:20 PM Hating our neighbours because they are different from us is racism, wherever it happens, and it happens everywhere.
The first thing we have to do is to concentrate on identifying the faults in our own countries and cultures, and do what we can to get rid of them.
Picking out ways in which we maybe aren't as bad as some other people doesn't really help in that process. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST,Curious Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:15 PM If I were Max, and I saw threads like this, and had any doubt as to whether it continued to be worth my time, trouble and expense to keep this forum up and running, this thread would definitely (a) convince me that GUESTS should have read-only access and (b) let someone else have the expenses and headaches in continuing to host an un-moderated forum. --GUEST,Screw This
Did you have anyone in particular in mind, GUEST, Screw This? Is that what all of the insanity that's been going on in the Mudcat the last several months has been all about? Is someone, or a group of someones, trying to coerce Max into handing over control of the Mudcat to someone else? Maybe someone or group of someones who have some kind of agenda perhaps?
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Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Lepus Rex Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:41 PM *snort* |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Tedham Porterhouse Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:38 PM Celtic Soul, Thank you for your post. I, for one, am deeply saddened that a United Nations Conference on Racism has been hijacked by some of the worst hate-mongers in the world. This thread began with a couple of hateful examples of anti-Semitism that are mild compared with sone of the garbage coming out of Durban. I understand that some of you have wanted to neutralize the anti-Semitism by trivializing the thread, however, this subject is anything but trivial. Speaking as someone who marched with Dr. King in 1963, and listened to his "dream," I am very depressed by this conference and disappointed at the Mudcat response to it. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: AliUK Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM actually in a related ( sort of) vein, is it true they've taken the golliwog from the labels of Robertson's jars? |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Celtic Soul Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:28 PM "Guest" posted: "Notwithstanding the outrage over the second guest's essay, I can't help but notice that there are none of you willing to stand up on behalf of Jewish Zionism. The delegates at the UN Conference are well aware of the fact that, except for the Jewish lobby, Israel, the American government and the big American media, they represent the mass of world opinion". Okeedoke, I'll bite. Considering that there are countries like the Sudan (who are enslaving and slaughtering innocents for the crime of being Christian) who are now a part of the UN sanctioned "Commission on Human Rights", and the US (the country that founded the commission, and which has one of the best human rights records in existance) has been ousted from said commission, I think that what the UN stands for is not necessarily something I really *want* to be affiliated with in any regards. I mean *really*. There is a thriving slave trade in the Sudan, and *this* country has the audacity to shake a finger at Israel or the US? The Israelis have to their credit a history of taking in *non* jews/Israelis (such as several thousand Viet Namese refugees) for the sole reason that they *were* refugees. There are no religious or racial connections between the Viet Namese and the Israelis, so why are these supposed "racists" helping them? The Israelis have also stood up in defense of any poor treatment that *any* non-muslim receives at the hands of some muslim countries (not merely other Israelis). The Israelis have also been very instrumental in defending black Jews and Christians in parts of Africa who are suffering persecution. Let's also take into consideration that *WOMEN* are not treated like chattel in Israel, as they are in much of the Muslim world. Thanks, but I am happy my country does not side with butchers, misogynists, and hypocrits.
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Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:13 PM Strawberry (Robertsons NOT Hartleys) |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: AliUK Date: 04 Sep 01 - 08:01 PM John is that strawberry or rasberry jam? I always put either damson or blackcurret. The Damson because it has big chewwy bits and the blackcurrent for the fun of getting the seeds out from between my teeth. I have a wicked recipe for a cocktail if anyone's interested. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:56 PM Oh Kendall, how true! LOL! ~From Zucchiniland |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Sorcha Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM Truly a sad thing, Kendall. Rice pudding is DISGUSTING!! |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:47 PM What do you put in/on your rice pudding? (I like jam & chocolate chips) |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: kendall Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:36 PM You can always tell when a man has no friends..how?
You see him BUYING zucchini. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:59 PM PeteM, sure, but not with the kind of start this had. Summer Squash Thai Style Slice lengthwisde, sprinkle with oil and five spice. Broil till you HAVE to eat it. ~S~
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Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: PeteBoom Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM Art - thanks for correcting the recipe - I was wondering how you get 1/3 of a crumb.... Pete |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST,Pete M at work Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:44 PM OK so posting a series of unconnected items is an excellent way of pointing up the faults in the thread originator's hysterical rant, but isn't the fact that the UN conference on racism has been exploited in different ways, by vested interests on both sides of the Palestine / Israel conflict worthy of more considered debate? To me the whole issue once again demonstrates peoples inherrent hypocrisy. Racism is something that other lesser mortals / states demonstrate, but not us. Until the whole of mankind starts basing its actions on ethical criteria, racism will always be with us. The best we can hope for is a little more honesty in admitting it. A very sorrowful Pete M |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:10 PM That ought to read 1 1/3 CUPS of bread crumbs ! Art |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Art Thieme Date: 04 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM CRUMB-TOPPED ZUCCHINI 1 or 2 pounds of zucchini 2/3 cup of butter 1 teaspoon salt 1 cup sour cream 2 teaspoons sugar 1 and 1/3 bread crumbs Slice the zucchini and place in an oblong pan. Melt half the butter and pour it over the zucchini. Cover and bake for 30 minutes. Combine salt, sour cream and sugar and spread over the top of the zucchini. Melt remaining butter and combine with the bread crumbs. Sprinkle over the zucchini and place in the oven uncovered for 10 minutes or until brown.(Bake at 350 degrees.) Art Thieme |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: SeanM Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:01 PM Didn't catch Stanley last night... but has anyone else picked up the "Down from the Mountain" soundtrack? Good schtuff going on it. I think I'm partial to Gillian Welch and David Rawlings doing "I want to sing that Rock 'n' Roll". Not particularly into the Fairfield Four version of "Po' Lazarus", but then again... it's not the field recording. M |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Wesley S Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM Did anyone see Ralph Stanley on David Letterman last night ?? Was that a toupee or did some animal die on top of his head?? |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: kendall Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM Arnie, you would catch cold and die. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM Anyone seen the movie "Rat Race"? I don't exactly know why but this thread brings it to mind. It was kind of tasteless, hinted at racism, but essentially, was harmless and funny. Rowan Atkinson is very funny in it. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM Two GUESTs or one? Who gives a shit. A genuine anti-semite or someone "cunningly" trying to brand people who criticise things Israel does as anti-semites? A very nasty bit of work anyway.
In case people missed it - the Hunger Site is back on. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: GUEST,Sol Rosenberg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM I think that we should hear this person out. For example, all three Stooges were Jewish. I would really like to hear this guys perspective on how they fit into the vast Jew/zionist conspiracy. |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: Arnie Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM Has anyone actually been on Ilkla moor b'aht 'at? What would be the consquences?? |
Subject: RE: UN Conference on Racism From: SINSULL Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM Yes, Kendall including accusing her of saying "Let them eat cake." Never happened. |
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