BS: Alger Hiss was innocent

Subject: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: MAG
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

I got tired of wading through all the polemic on the McCarthy thread, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing with DougR or anyone else more interested in demagoguery than shedding light.

Alger Hiss (and if you are going to dis a martyr at least spell his name right) got access to his whole file under the Freedom of Information Act (God Bless It) and the information therein proved beyond a doubt (to a reasonable person, that it) that Tricky Dick framed him from start to finish. In spite of *Advise and Consent* and other liberal anticommunist movies of the period, he never was more Left than a New Deal Democrat, and he went to his grave saying so.

First, the infamous typewriter used in the trial -- on which certain letters were typed -- was NOT his typewriter. He went through the trial himself thinking it was his typewriter that someone else used. The serial numbers did not match and TD knew it the whole time. So did Roy Cohn and everybody else who cooked up this travesty.

Then, there was Whittaker Chambers, that sad little megalomaniac. The issue with him was motive. Why would he make all this up? Why indeed. During the trial, Hiss' lawyer made a joke about "too bad he isn't homosexual."

Well, guess what? He was. His rambling "testimony" to the government conspirators went on for pages and pages about that life which he now renounced. Sorry, W.C., it's not a choice. The government blackmailed him, and he cooperated out of rejection vengeance.

These are the facts. Facts are stubborn things, as Marx once said. (Karl, that is.)

You have just pushed my buttons with the complete lack of critical thinking here. Information illiteracy is something I face every day in every way. It is the great mind pollution of our new century. It lets demagogues like Rush Limbaugh spout their rhetoric with only the lone voice crying in the wilderness, "But that's just not true ..."

OK. Off my soapbox.

MAG

Not a red diaper baby, but definitely an unreconstructed 60's peacenik.

PS: Pete Seeger long ago repudiated the gross excesses of the Communist Party. The man is a saint, which you would know, if you listened to the NPR interview on Monday.

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: DonMeixner
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM

Mag,

Alger Hiss was framed. I agree, just thot you should know that someone agrees with you.

I only caught half of the NPR interview with Alan Chartok and Pete seeger. And yes, Pete is the real thing. Nobody I have ever heard of was as honest and straight for ward as Pete is.

Didn't happen to tape it did you?

Don

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: thosp
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM

"ditto" to the above

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:45 AM

Mag, the only thought that I might disagree with is "being tired of wading through the polemic." I'm glad you added this thread as indeed Alger Hiss has been a longtime "companion" of mine......Someone who seemed quite heroic and the real victim to me far before the truth came out. I was roundly trounced by a HS teacher for making the argument that he was framed, and that was over 35 years ago.....so I appreciate your post.

But I am also certainly enjoying the stories over there on the McCarthy thread. Most of it has been added knowledge and reading history on a very personal level from people I know and respect. It's like reading Civil War accounts from the people who fought the battles and not the historians, but even better.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: ddw
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:55 AM

I don't think there's any doubt that Alger Hiss was framed or that it was Nixon who did it, but what so many people seem to gloss over when recalling the bad ol' McCarthy era is the OTHER young senator who rode on Tailgunner Joe's coattails — a young up-and-comer named John F. Kennedy, who was just as willing to throw out the constitution as Nixon was to "get the commies."

Nor should be forget the other Kennedy (Robert), who as Attorney General pursued "Communists" mercilessly, even in the face of clear evidence the people weren't.

Unfortunately, the two were lionized by the manner of their deaths and most people never remember those little things about them.

david

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: MAG
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

Sorry, Don, I was travelling in my car. -- MA

PS: Spaw, I truly enjoyed Sandy's post. and some others.

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM

I view this with a bit of ambivalence--Hiss and many others *were* framed, generally by opportunists who cared and knew nothing about communism, but were hungry for the publicity that a few lies and unfounded accusations could generate--However, there were many wonderful, caring, idealistic people who wholeheartedly embraced Communism and all that it seemed to represent, and were duped, mislead, exploited, and many times, deliberately destroyed by the cynical manipulators who controlled Communism from very early on--There really was a Red Menace, and, though it has pretty much been driven to the margins, it left a legacy of misery, economic disaster, and slaughter that still surrounds us--

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: kendall
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:49 AM

JFK didn't get to congress until 1956 as I recall. That was long after the Hiss/McCarthy era. Also, it seems to me that RFK was tied up with civil rights, not commies.

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM

Funny ??

Tricky Dick got the pardon.

Alger Hiss got jail.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:19 PM

MA, do you remember which program you heard that on? Also, was it this past Monday, 3 Sept.? We should be able to find it here, but I didn't have much luck. If we knew the program, it might be helpful. Usually those are archived and one can listen to it at will. Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:22 PM

[Momentary thread creep for side information.]

I heard the program also, kat. I heard it on KUOW, Seattle's NPR affiliate, on Monday 9/3/01. KUOW was doing a series of special programs commemorating Labor Day.

It was marvelous! Two hours worth of interview, complete with music clips (when they did a bit of Pete leading an audience in We Shall Overcome, what popped into my mind was, "No bloody wonder some people consider this man dangerous!"). I'm not much of a hero-worshipper because, unfortunately, I find so little to worship, but Pete Seeger definitely is one of my heroes.

When a program like that hits the airwaves, usually somebody starts a thread about it, but from what I've read here, not all that many people heard it. The KUOW announcer said that the program was from Public Radio International. I checked PRI's website and ran a general internet search and came up empty. But I have just e-mailed KUOW and asked for any information they could give me. When I hear from them, I'll pass the info along.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Metchosin
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:53 PM

Right M. Ted, like in Canada, where the less hardline "scary reds" transformed themselves into what became the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation. The CCF eventually managed to bring about, first in Saskatchewan under Tommy Douglas, a programme of universal medicare, which was later adopted for all of Canada under by he the Liberals (in an effort to diffuse the Left, which threatened the balance of power of the status quo).

Not a bad "red legacy" in North America, as far as I'm concerned.

Should point out that, despite some recent problems, Canada's medical costs are half of what is spent in the US as a proportion of GNP. Not perfect, but not without hope.

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

Here is a good site documenting The Alger Hiss Story. I especially like the story of Frank Wilkinson and Carl Braden's release from prison.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:19 PM

The only current evidence that I've seen in reference to the guilt or innocence of Hiss was reflected in a 60 Minutes piece a few years ago. It was a story about the first findings from the release of the now defunct KGB files. It was in those files that the "AH" communiques were found.

...hardly something tricky Dick could pull off. No?

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: ddw
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:19 PM

Kendall — 'Fraid you're nearly 10 years off on when JFK went to congress. He was a representative from '47 to '53, when he gained a reputation as an anti-communist. In late '52 he beat Henry Cabot Lodge for a Massachusetts senate seat and was re-elected to the senate in '58.

In the latter incarnation, even though McCarthy was discredited and gone (he had been censured by the Senate after the Army's lawyer took him apart in the Army-McCarthy hearings and Edward R. Murrow exposed him as a fearmongering buffoon) Kennedy continued his vehement anti-communist stance from the Foreign Relations Committee. He even carried it into the White House with the Bay of Pigs fiasco and he pushed the world to the brink of WWIII over the missiles in Cuba.

He was also playing his "Red Peril" card when — against almost everybody's advice, given the French experience — he started sending "advisers" into Viet Nam.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM

Actually we had been sending "advisors" to Vietnam and, I might add, Laos since the Truman and Eisenhower administrations. This of course doesn't challenge the validity of your statements David but enhances them. Yes, Alger Hiss was framed but then so was Rubin Carter. We can't correct the wrongs that are past our only hope is to avoid them in the future. I think that Nixon and Kennedy were rather the same type of person. Both were ruthless in their ambition, willing to bend and even break the law to achieve their ends, unforgiving of their enemies, and both made a lasting impact on America. While Kennedy is lionized now. Nixon is vilified. I think fifty years from now, Nixon will get a more even handed treatment. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: ddw
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

Neil — I couldn't agree more. Not that I particularly like Nixon — I think he was a despicable little meglomaniac — but I get sick to death of the adulation heaped on JFK and RFK, who were just a power mad and without the saving grace of having a defencable foreign policy. I've often thought — and I'm not alone — that much of the Kennedys' anti-communist zeal was an attempt to appease Waahington's No. 1 mad dog, J. Edgar Hoover.

BTW, if you get the idea I don't like ANY politicians, you've got me pegged....

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: ddw
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:36 PM

Afterthought, Neil...

Are you sure about the advisors during Truman and Eisenhower? The Viet Min didn't dislodge the French until what, about 1952, did they? And Eisenhower was adamant that the U.S. should not send ANY troops into the area. I may be mistaken, but my recollection is that JFK was criticized at the time for sending the first advisers in in 1961 or '62.

david

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: ddw
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM

Just answered my own questions — the French were kicked out in '54 and Eisenhower did send in a few advisers, though his administration and the State Department were denying at the time they any troops on the ground.

The first blatant deployment was in 1961 when Kennedy sent the USS Core, with about 40 helicopters on the deck, up the river at Saigon and unloaded the choppers and a significant number of troops in full view of the Viet Cong, just to do a little sabre rattling.

david

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: DougR
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM

Gee whiz, Mag, thanks. I love you too! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:15 AM

Re: assessments of presidents - the problem is that the public and the media (not sure which order I should put those in!!) like thinks nice and simple . . JFK was something of a shit but with considerable charm, and who did some good on race/integration issues - so, all in all, he's Mr Good Guy! Tricky Dicky lacked the charm, doesn't have a single strong "liberal" achievement and so is all bad . .

I'm not saying things are any better over here, mind!

Other than which, thanks to various of you for a fascinating and informative thread.

And, personally, I'd add Arthur Miller to Pete Seeger as one of the heros of McCarthyism, and one of the important voices when it comes to documenting that era. (Why is it the finest English-language playright of the 20th century is better recognised abroad than in his home country?)

G.

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM

"Tricky Dicky lacked the charm, doesn't have a single strong "liberal" achievement and so is all bad . ."

Richard Nixon has more "liberal achievements" than any president since FDR. Most people who still hate him are politically minded, not ideological----present cold war discussion not withstanding (I refer to his Presidency, not his congressional/senatorial record).

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM

I guess by "strong" I meant "outstanding" in the way JFK is firmly associated with advancing racial equality . . I have to admit, at this distance, to no recollection of his record on domestic matters.

As it happens, it was during our one visit to the states that Nixon was crucified by the press for pronouncing Manson guilty of the Sharon Tate murder in advance of "due process" of law. Sure, it was a major "gaffe" - but he was only saying the same as so many other folks (as I recall, he referred to Manson as the "murderer" of Tate, rather than "alleged murderer"). The press reaction seemed more of a witch-hunt than reasoned and balanced reporting. Indeed, the irresponsible way the press handled this seemed far more likely to prejudice a jury than the President's slip of the tongue would have done . .

So - I'm happy (in the absence of evidence either way) to submit to your far greater knowledge here, John!

Regards

George

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 02:08 PM

George, your first error was expecting to read "fair and balanced" reporting about anything Nixon did in America's newspapers. If any president could be annoited the "Civil Rights" president, I think it would be LBJ, though, not JFK. He wasn't in office long enough to really accomplish much. Had he lived, I believe he would have though.

DougR

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Troll
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 03:48 PM

JFK and RFK were not trying to appease J.Edgar Hoover- at least in the '50's- but their father, Joseph Kennedy, who was an ardent McCarthy supporter and a vehement anti-communist. He controlled the purse strings that got JFK elected in the first place and JFK was not about to cross him.
In fact, on the day that Congress voted to censure McCarthy, JFK was absent and did not case a vote. He knew which side of the bread the butter was on.
His later involvment with Viet Nam was simply a continuation of the belief in the "Dominoe Theory" which reflected the conventional wisdom of the day that communism was monolithic and would take over the countries of SE Asia one by one.

troll

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:42 PM

Thanks for posting the link to the Alger Hiss website, which, since it is partially sponsored by his own Foundation, assures that it is object, right?

Anyway, I didn't find conclusive proof that "Tricky Dick" framed Hiss.

If that were proven, "The New York Times," "Washington Post," and other leading leftist newspapers in the United States would have had five inch headlines above the story. I don't recall any five inch headlines recently.

No doubt those of you who believe that have a right to believe it, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:33 PM

Dang, I can't find that Seeger interview. If anybody knows the name of the NPR program and the date it was broadcast, we should be able to provide a link to it. I checked All Things Considered and Morning Edition for Monday, Sept 3 - but didn't find it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Mark Clark
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:48 PM

DougR, If you're referring to the links I posted, the site is the home of the personal pages of faculty, staff, and students of NYU. They arent't the work or even necessarily the opinions of the university but they are built and maintained by members of NYU's academic community.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: DougR
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

Hmmm. Sorry, Mark. I would have sworn that I read that funding was provided by the Hiss Foundation and a Foundation that is part of the Community Foundation of Southern Arizona.

DougR

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: MAV
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:12 PM

Dear Greenists,

I believe "Tricky Dicky" initiated the EPA.

(Uncle Joe) McCarthy was the god parent to the Kennedy boys.

The Kennedy's "old man" may have been mafia, but at least he hated communists.

mav out

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: DougR
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 12:18 AM

Mav: Surely you are mistaken! Nixon created the EPA? Unbelievable. You can't be referring to Richard Nixon, right? Everyone knows Republicans want to destroy the environment, right?

Geeze, Mav, you really need to check your facts.

DougR

P.S. Of course I will apologize should you be proven right.

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 02:08 AM

Hi, Joe and all,

My internet search turned up nothing on the Seeger interview program, so I e-mailed KUOW, Seattle's local NPR affiliate. This is the answer I got back:--

Hi,

Here's the official word from WAMC in New York, the station that produced the program: -------------------------------------------- Hello. Thanks for writing. The Pete Seeger interview is available on CD, or cassette for a pledge donation of 100$, or more. Mr. Seeger lives in the area and has been a long time supporter of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, and wanted to help the station (which is publicly funded) by doing this interview.

If you would like a copy, please email me with your information (name, phone, address, credit card number, and exp. date), or you may call the station, [phone], press '0' for the operator.

Thanks again for writing, and we are glad you enjoyed the program.

Sincerely,

April Kiss -------------------------------------------- Thanks, Bernard KUOW

They didn't forward WAMC's e-mail address, but the 800 number should do the trick.

I recall the KUOW announcer saying that the program was distributed by Public Radio International, which accounts for it's not being on the NPR website. I've already heard the program, but I'd sure love to have a copy of it. I'm afraid $100 is a bit too steep for me, even if it is in a good cause. But there it is.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 04:08 PM

Well, that interview still seems hard to find or pricey, but I did find anoher one which is realy good at this site. enjoy!

Thanks for this thread, MAG. I've just been reading about Hiss and it was great to find this thread here.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Hrothgar
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 03:22 AM

Onya, kat!

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 04:41 AM

It has always amused me the way in which Americans have reacted to the word "Communist". It is not seen so much as a political belief - but rather as a hideous, misanthropic condition. In the UK, most Communists were actually very benign, cycling (frequently pacifist) idealists. There is no real left - or even social democratic movement that I can discern in the US. Even the word "Socialist" is a damning charge to a political opponent if you can make it stick.
To be fair, that way of thinking is not unique to America. I believe my mother would have felt less ashamed of me had I turned out to be a bank robber rather than a Communist.

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 11:50 AM

Well, there's Communism and then there's communism. The organized political activity centered in Moscow through the Communist Party was conceived as an ideational threat to the U.S., and for good reason. It was not the philosophical premises, I'd guess, so much as the totalitarian implementation under Stalin, Beria et al that made it look at the itme like the very incarnation of evil.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: GUEST,Yishka Badishka
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 12:23 PM

Coincidently, my cat makes a sound like a hiss when mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:34 PM

Amos, your safe ground arguing that Stalin was evil. At he very least he was seriously deranged. And of course, his revolting excesses had nothing to do with communism (can't see what distinction you're drawing with the capital C). However it is a bit self-indulgent to think communism was conceived as a threat to the US. It was in fact an intellectual response to staggering iniquities that prevailed in many countries/economies in the pre-democracy era.

With hindsight it would seem that the emperors and dictators (and popes), sensing the wind of change, grew ever more harsh and brutal, merely making more fierce the reaction, when it came.

Lenin, never mind Stalin, would be deemed unacceptably brutal by the standards of today's western democracies. But he was leading people who had been brutalised beyond endurance under the Tzarist regime. He tried to steer the succession away from Stalin, and there is much cause to think Trotsky would have been a much more measured and efficient leader certainly than Stalin turned out, and possibly than Lenin had been.

But he too would have had to cope with the massive handicap of running a command economy as an oasis in a desert of hysterical, paranoid hostility from worldwide vested interests - not least those of capitalism and the catholic church (the latter ranting against even mere democracy and liberalism right into the 20th century).

As for how communism is perceived beyond the US, Alanabit has got it exactly right. Many of the communists I know are urbane people of unquestionably high moral values, often secularist, often Jewish, highly educated and with much better awareness of international affairs than the norm, and often people who for one reason or another have lived in perhaps two or three countries and speak two or three languages.

Re Hiss, the Kennedys etc, thanks for all the input - I've found it hugely interesting. To whoever it was who remembered the latter for human rights, my own recollection is that LBJ did much more on this than either of the Kennedy brothers, but somehow missed out on getting the credit. (For my money LBJ was one of the best recent presidents, except for Vietnam, which in any case he inherited from guess who.) One positive thing I do remember about the Kennedys is RFK turning against his dad's background to take on organised crime. But all this is just what I've gleaned smasmodically from a distance.

One thing's for sure: capitalism's still got a few problems of its own when a monster like Hoover can run the Feds for 50 (yes, fifty!) years. If that didn't give him fantastic leverage over his presidents, he must have been doing something wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:39 PM

You'd have sussed anyway, but that last guest post was me, operating with crumbled cookie, now reset.

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: MAG
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:40 PM

I was going to let this old thread quietly go to sleep again, but as the originator I want to make it clear that I agree with the above poster about the hysterical nature of American anti-communism. Lots of good people who were Communists   or merely fellow travelers were destroyed by McCarthy. Alger Hiss was destroyed and he wasn't even a Communist, just a very well spoken extreme liberal they perceived as a threat. Another example would be that journalist whose name I can't remember who ended his days making a bucketful of money on Hee Haw (dumb American TV show). Somebody must remember his name; he did a ton of stuff with Texan folklore.

Off to nurse my cold some more. Some nasty germs floating around my neck of the woods.

MAG

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: MAG
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:41 PM

John Henry Faulk. I knew I'd think of it as soon as I sent. -- MA

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:51 PM

MAG, one of his (Faulk) ex-wives lives in Toronto, and I had her on the radio show a few years ago. She had great stories of those times. Her name's Lynne Gordon, and if ya see her book in a used store...grab it.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Alger Hiss was innocent
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 01:00 PM

Thanks for the further comments, MAG. This is all very interesting to read. Get better:-)