Where is the 'new' Mudcat?

Subject: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:39 AM

To quote Max:

"We're a week or two away from a new and improved Mudcat" (11th August 2001)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, and I realise Max has been busy with 'real' life

Anyone know what's going on?

Thanks

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

This is right, you give him your money, you trust him, and his promises?

fuck all

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:29 AM

Those comments are unfair, Max does a hell of a good job - if you don't like it here - FUCK OFF!

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM

GUEST talking to himself now? (Though the second version put it eloquently enough.)

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM

What a weird thread! What's all this about?

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From:
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:41 AM

A few weeks ago, Max indicated the Mudcat was to undergo a major facelift/mod. It was to happen within the week.

I suspect some of those upgrades caused problems, so it's on hold. Please be patient. It'll come to pass when it comes to pass.

Engineering maxim - End of job is ALWAYS later than spec'd.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From:
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM

The military put it best (paraphrased)- The battle-plan NEVER survives the actual encounter of the forces.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:45 AM

I think people should be grateful for this mudcat, and not complain they want a new one. and they should be nice to each other.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Scabby Doug (no cookie...)
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:49 AM

I work in an IT role.

Today, when asked "how long will this take?" - I foolishly gave my estimate...

Suffice to say that my estimate was inaccurate by a factor of around 4 hours... It took about 5 times as long as I thought.

Whatever you may think - just because it's happening on a computer system doesn't make it easy, or simple, or uncomplicated. And if you already know all that why are you busting Max's behind...?

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM

John in Hull:

You are a complete arse

btw please stop 'refreshing' threads - thank you

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:02 AM

OK, we had an opening post asking for information, and now we have a running battle.

How about Guest With a Good Question goes and asks it in the Help forum, and how about people of good sense let the battle die?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:02 AM

Guest I am going to tell Joe you are picking on me.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:09 AM

OK, we had an opening post asking for information, and now we have a running battle.

How about Guest With a Good Question goes and asks it in the Help forum, and how about people of good sense let the battle die?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM

I picked on healing threads for a while

They went away

Any chance that picking on you, 'John in Hull' will have the same effect?

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

Looking at that opening question it occurred to me, is "Thanks" a name, or just a sentiment. Not a bad name anyway. And a sentiment I wholeheartedly agree with.

But the trouble is, if you sign in as GUEST you get lumped in with the other ones who do that, some of whom are remarkably unpleasant. Or at least, that's what the people who read their posts tell me. But that's been discussed to ribbons, so no more here.

For an example of how an organisation with millions of pounds to spend is incapable of doing something remotely comparable in quality to the Mudcat, click here - and that BBC message board is in fact better than most.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:35 AM

I am not writing to you any more Guest, I think you are probably a bad person.
PS No I not go away.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:33 PM

McGrath, I don't like the format of the BBC system either and wish they would revise the user interface. Having said that, I wouldn't be too hard on thier develpoment. They do appear to me to have come up with a single system that is currently managing some 35 (I think) separate boards whereas, to the best of my knowledge, Mudcat does not have such built in flexibility.

I would also imagine their solution is a powerful one. Sheer speculation on my part but I'd imagine a single board like the "East Enders" board or "Radio 1" board on their system is likely to be coping with more traffic than Mudcat has to contend with.

Jon

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Biskit
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:51 PM

*WHEWEEEEE* this is gettin' weird folks! Jon in hull you jus' keepa doin' what you do. It's just fine-N-dandy wi' me. PEACE! (for cryin' out loud) ~Biskit~

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

when estimating a time schedule, double the figure and raise the units to the next higher...i.e....2 days becomes 4 weeks...5 weeks becomes 10 months.

Besides, Max has lost help, money, time & energy lately--he has LOTS going on besides this!...those of us who have watched Mudcat grow for 5 years are not too worried....

(boy, 'guest' who thinks your harassment and picking is all that is required to elicit changes....you'd better stay VERY anonymous...if you had any idea how obnoxious that attitude is to most of the regulars,.....ah, well..never mind...it's like talking to a brick wall!)

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: LR Mole
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM

Shhhhhhhh, now.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

I believe the Scottish have a saying, "Only bairns and fools look at a half finished job"

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM

I to would like to know the status of the proposed upgrades... out of plain old curiosity if nothing else...

Wha'sa happs Maxer???

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

The "new Mudcat" is working quite well, but there are still a few bugs that give us fits.

• Most probably, the new Mudcat will have automatic line breaks, and we'll be able to forget typing all those "br's." This is the most noticeable change, but also the most problematic. We're trying to make it work without affecting other HTML that people might like to post. There was one problem with this feature that was very annoying, but Pene came up with a rather elegant solution last week - now, it has to be tested.
• Message posting may have a "preview" feature, and a "blue clicky" creator that I'm not sure I like.
• Personal messages may be archived or deleted in bulk, instead of one at a time.
• Searching greatly improved, especially for the Digital Tradition (this is causing us some problems). The "titles" list for the Digital Tradition should work a whole lot better.

The current Forum is quite stable, and it would seem a shame to replace it with something that's plagued with bugs. Max works on Mudcat in his spare time, and he doesn't have much of that right now. It will come when Max thinks it's ready, and you'll all know about it. That should give you a taste of what's coming - but I don't know when it's going to be here.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM

Cool...

But what's wrong with "previewing" our auto linking? They are features on just about every Message Board worth it's salt on the net, so it can't be all that hard to do no?

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:37 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by "previewing our auto-linking," Clinton.

Yes, I've seen features that automatically change URLs into clickable links. They work, most of the time, but they usually don't allow the poster any flexibility. If you post something that looks like an URL on those forums, the forum changes it into a link - whether you want it that way, or not. Every time you add automatic HTML to a forum, you limit the ability people have to post their own HTML. It's fairly easy to have a forum with automatic line breaks and automatic links, but you will see very little other HTML on those forums. Mudcat has helped many of us learn HTML, and that's a real bonus. Because of Mudcat, I can do HTML better than any HTML editor software I know of - and it was really quite easy to learn. We'd like to automate some things - without "dumbing down" the Forum by making it too difficult to use other HTML.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM

I think the ability to 'use' html is really over-rated... it's like being able to self enter the 'code' in a word processor document... we have the word processor so we don't HAVE to enter the codes our selves...

That aside.. you said above...

"Message posting may have a "preview" feature, and a "blue clicky" creator that I'm not sure I like."

That's the 'preview' and "auto-linking" that I'm talking about... (I refuse to stoop so low as to call 'em 'blue clickies'... same way as I won't call it a 'puter...)

"Every time you add automatic HTML to a forum, you limit the ability people have to post their own HTML. It's fairly easy to have a forum with automatic line breaks and automatic links, but you will see very little other HTML on those forums"

Other than auto linking and line breaks, what other html gets used much here? Font, and colour for the really annoying posters I guess... (That's why I set my browser to override mudcats fonts and colours before I get here...) I guess I just haven't seen it...

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:10 PM

Ordered lists and tables are two HTML functions that can be very handy, Clinton. You'll see both of them used in the FAQ and PermaThreads. They can add color and interest - or they can be used badly.
Word processors and HTML editors add all sorts of extraneous code. If you want HTML that loads quickly and works exactly the way you want it to, you have to enter it yourself.
That said, you'll most probably get your way and have at least some automatic HTML in the new Mudcat.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:26 PM

Oh mate... it's not me 'getting my way'... I'm just curious is all eh... We're just yackin' here...

I do all my html in editors and have few or no problems with it...

Lists and tables, yup... I hadn't thought of those... but being in permathreads, I tend to not even look... I don't think of those as 'user' threads... so I don't see that we'd ever have much need for the general mudcat populace to have access to easy tables or lists... Most people here don't really need 'em eh?

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:48 PM

as a "user" I would prefer to have as much control over that as possible. One of the *best* features of the mudcat is that it does NOT second guess me. if I want a link I will put in a link. if I don't, I won't. Likewise - I appreciate being able to underline, strikeout, use italics, bold, etc in the places I WANT them.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:00 PM

So, if I type something in say, Word, and use bold and italics, then I can use the pre command and all the html will transfer? Is that what you are saying Clinton?

I really haven't fooled with html much beyond break, bold and italic. (Don't want to fool with color, font and size. I turned an entire thread red once and I don't want to do that again!!)

Joe, I just went to my PP Archive and tried to "mass delete"....couldn't do it. How does it work? Or, does it yet? I thought that was what you were saying.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:17 PM

No, Sorcha, the "new" Mudcat hasn't been released yet. I'm using it, but it's not ready for general use. The "pre" command doesn't work that way. For typefaces and most effects, you have to use HTML tags.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:31 PM

OK, thanks!

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

Sounds like some good things in the works, Joe. You guys take your time. I'm cool with that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 05:07 PM

never mind the new mudcat. where has john from hull gone? john come back i'm sure they didn't mean the nasty things they said.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM

It's john in hull, NOT from.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From:
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 05:32 PM

Joe - Thanks for the update.

Max, Pene and all the rest of the testers, thanks again for all the hard work!

Dick, Susan, et al, Thanks for keeping up!

I can wait as long as it needs to.

Clinton, besides those, I use <p align="center"> a lot for specifics, such as Titles and author/copyright notices. There are a few other things I use as well. So, I love the flexibility we have here.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

And I was watching the football, (England won 2-0)

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM

GS... ya... that's another one I've seen... but I really don't see how having 'auto link and line break' turned on precludes or interfears with the ability to use any other html... Is there something I'm not understanding here?

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:04 PM

Clinton, the line break does not preclude any other HTML, at least not that I can think of off hand. I did try some of the earlier testing on some of the system Joe Offer uses (which has probably undergone many changes over the past few weeks). The problem I found and reported was more to do with ease of entry than anything else.

If you want to use a table for example, it is rather nice to be able to enter it along the lines of:

(Ommiting the less than and greater than tags 'cause I am lazy.

      TABLE
         TR
            TD Then some text /TD
            TD Some more text /TD
         /TR
         TR
           TD this text belongs to the next TR /TD
         /TR
      /TABLE  

Nice and easy to follow and a human can hopefully see what belongs with what. Having line breaks added can totaly throw that type of input, giving unwanted blank lines in output. In the cases I am thinking of if readability for the inputter (or maybe a JoeClone trying to correct a mistake) was not a concern, it may still work with the breaks but I would suspect there could also be a question about line lengths.

I'd love to know what Jeff's solution is BTW. IMO he is excellent on this sort of stuff.

Jon

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:36 PM

No, I'm not hard on the BBC and they could take it if I was. As I said, compared to many it's good - but it's not good in itself. And the amount of people posts and threads it has is a fraction of those on the Mudcat.

Adding in many features that the Mudcat has would be straight forward so far as I can see. You can't just open it up and see all the threads that are available, and then go and look to see what they say. You can't go back into the archives. And so on.

What I've like to see them do is get onto Max and offer him a healthy amount of dosh to sort things out for them, so that you could do the kind of things with their board that you can do with the Mudcat. And then they could add their own additional features, and restrictions. That is a serious suggestion too.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Max
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM

Well, we were 2 weeks away, but then I made the mistake of asking you all what else I should add. With well over 100 suggestions, it added some time to the game. Then I lost 2 elves and began shifting my attention to saving the Mudcat rather than upgrading it. Takes a lot of work to move 30 computers with hundreds of Web sites (including the Mudcat) across town.

Regardless, as much as I love the Mudcat it has dropped to 3rd or 4th on my priority list. I spent all day today in court battling for something I hold more dear than this Web site, so the disrespect in certain posts here don't concern me much.

Pene is working very hard on the new cat, far more so than I right now. I for one am very impressed and happy with what he is doing, and can't imagine him moving any faster. He deserves mad props.

I really don't care whether you believe or not. Fawk off.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM

Yep McGrath, their user inferface is lousy and they could certainly learn lessons from MC and using SQL server and Verity (and given space to store), MC's search facilities are IMO based on what I have seen, unsurpassed. As for what you would like to see, me too!

I do however believe there is a fundamental design weakness (I'm guessing there is no separate forum bit in the DB structure) in the MC database structure (resolvable by Max) that has stopped it being a good option for many would be clients who for what ever reason do not wish to operate an "all lumped together forum".

As for volume, I'm still not sure it is lower: Just check out their Aaliyah thread.

Jon

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: MMario
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Max - with one notable (anonymous) exception I think most of the people on the 'cat thouroughly understand and are patient.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:19 PM

Good luck Max. I think I know what you were speaking of; it's a hard road to travel.

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:11 PM

Max???

What's the deal on being a "Mudcat Elf"?

Is there an interview process or something???

I am keen to help if I can eh...

;-)

Subject: RE: Where is the 'new' Mudcat?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM

Joe Offer....

You don't need to keep hidding under GUEST...to let your feelings known!

Sorry, Garg. I don't do that. I'm quite proud of my own opinion, even when it irritates certain people around here. That's why I post openly.
-Joe Offer-