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BS: Political Compass

Ringer 05 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM
jeffp 05 Sep 01 - 09:53 AM
wysiwyg 05 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM
KingBrilliant 05 Sep 01 - 09:55 AM
Bagpuss 05 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM
Bagpuss 05 Sep 01 - 10:02 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 05 Sep 01 - 10:03 AM
Bagpuss 05 Sep 01 - 10:06 AM
jeffp 05 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 05 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM
MMario 05 Sep 01 - 10:16 AM
Bagpuss 05 Sep 01 - 10:24 AM
KingBrilliant 05 Sep 01 - 10:29 AM
jeffp 05 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM
KingBrilliant 05 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM
Ringer 05 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM
Bagpuss 05 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM
mooman 05 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM
Jack the Sailor 05 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM
Mrrzy 05 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM
Gareth 05 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM
Roger in Sheffield 05 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM
toadfrog 05 Sep 01 - 07:09 PM
Skeptic 05 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM
Shields Folk 05 Sep 01 - 08:23 PM
AliUK 05 Sep 01 - 08:36 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Sep 01 - 08:49 PM
Sorcha 05 Sep 01 - 09:03 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 05 Sep 01 - 09:13 PM
toadfrog 05 Sep 01 - 11:20 PM
Amergin 05 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM
GUEST 06 Sep 01 - 02:12 AM
Roger in Sheffield 06 Sep 01 - 03:30 AM
Ringer 06 Sep 01 - 04:07 AM
Terry K 06 Sep 01 - 04:08 AM
BlueJay 06 Sep 01 - 04:18 AM
Linda Kelly 06 Sep 01 - 06:23 AM
John P 06 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM
English Jon 06 Sep 01 - 11:58 AM
Gervase 21 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 01 - 02:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM
Kim C 21 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM
Penny S. 21 Sep 01 - 06:24 PM
John Routledge 21 Sep 01 - 06:24 PM
Metchosin 21 Sep 01 - 06:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 01 - 06:49 PM
Paul from Hull 21 Sep 01 - 07:02 PM
Jim Dixon 21 Sep 01 - 07:04 PM
John Routledge 21 Sep 01 - 07:15 PM
Jim Dixon 21 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Sep 01 - 09:25 PM
Jim Dixon 21 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM
Troll 21 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM
Amos 21 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM
Bert 22 Sep 01 - 01:28 AM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 01 - 07:07 AM
John Hardly 22 Sep 01 - 07:41 AM
sc 22 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM
John Hardly 22 Sep 01 - 08:52 AM
Bert 22 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM
Jim Dixon 22 Sep 01 - 11:28 AM
John Hardly 22 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM
Roger in Sheffield 22 Sep 01 - 01:36 PM
Jim Dixon 22 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM
Bert 23 Sep 01 - 12:29 AM
John Hardly 23 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM
Jim Dixon 23 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM
John Hardly 23 Sep 01 - 08:57 AM
Eric the Viking 23 Sep 01 - 09:47 AM
Penny S. 25 Sep 01 - 05:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 01 - 06:23 PM
John Hardly 25 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM
Jim Dixon 26 Sep 01 - 08:13 PM
MarkS 26 Sep 01 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,Penny S. (At work)(filtered!) 27 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Penny S. again 27 Sep 01 - 11:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 01 - 12:14 PM
Ringer 27 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM
Ringer 27 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM
John Hardly 27 Sep 01 - 02:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM
Ringer 28 Sep 01 - 09:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 01 - 09:57 AM
John Hardly 28 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM
JedMarum 28 Dec 01 - 12:03 AM
Rolfyboy6 28 Dec 01 - 01:55 AM
leprechaun 28 Dec 01 - 11:01 PM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 10 Jan 02 - 01:01 AM
DougR 10 Jan 02 - 11:05 PM
Lepus Rex 11 Jan 02 - 09:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 02 - 09:26 AM

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Subject: Political Compass
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM

I was reminded by the "Folk Politics" thread of this site (Click). It purports to place your outlook not only on a left/right continuum, but also on a liberal/authoritarian one as well. I've always considered myself to be right-wing (economically more so than politically), but was placed bang in the middle left/right (0.0) with just a teensy-weensy bit of the authoritarian (0.1).

Any one else like to play (and, preferably, disclose the results, which is where the interest will lie)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: jeffp
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:53 AM

I wound up at Economic Left/Right: -4.63
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.49

That puts me in the Libertarian Left quadrant, which I am happy to share with Gandhi. I consider that quite an honor. I see that my place on the grid is near to that of Ken Livingstone. Could someone in the UK please tell me if this is a good or a bad thing?

Interesting quiz.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM

I find these tests generally don't reflect how flexible humans actually are when we are operating rationally. But if it is of interest to anyone, I tested as pretty libertarian left. I came up just to the right of Gandhi, or Economic Left/Right: -4.13 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.56. Sort of at the other end from the religious right, which is where a shckingly large number of people (who should know better) often EXPECT me to be.

Surprise!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:55 AM

I come out in the same location as Ghandi. That makes me a lefty-libertarian. I thought I had a bit more right in me actually - but I expect its about right.

Kris


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bagpuss
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM

I played. I scored -4.25 and -4.46. Making me a leftist libertarian. I never knew I had so much in common with Ghandi!!

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bagpuss
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:02 AM

Jeff P - do you have a collection of newts?

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:03 AM

Well, I show up as somewhere between Charles Kennedy and Tony Benn - I could have told you that without doing that test, actually. What a thing it is to know oneself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bagpuss
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:06 AM

Just checked the politicians. I knew my version of the labour party would be more like the lib dems than Tory Tonys new labour.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: jeffp
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM

No, should I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM

close to dead center.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: MMario
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:16 AM

-5 and -4.15


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bagpuss
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:24 AM

Jeff P _ was just checking you weren't the *real* Red Ken Livingstone (who does indeed own newts).

;-)

KT


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:29 AM

We've got newts in the garden - d'you reckon there's a significance there? Perhaps the newts are controlling us. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Did Ghandi have any?
Kristin


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: jeffp
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM

Well, my sister used to have a pair of salamanders - named Alfred, Lord Tennyson and Christopher Marlowe. Does that count?

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM

I think our newts are all called Isaac.

Kristin


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM

I've got a pair, too, but I don't boast about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bagpuss
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

I call mine "Tiny"...............

The old jokes are the worst eh?

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: mooman
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:50 AM

-4.88 and -6.05

About as left as Ghandi but a little more libertarian.

mooman


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM

Economic Left/Right: -1.88
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.00


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

-1.75 left/right and -6.92 auth/lib - I'm with Ghandi too but am apparently a lot less left-wing than I'd have thought - but at least this has settled the argument I was having with my politico friend who was claiming that the extreme of my view was communism and I was sure it wasn't - anarchy makes a LOT more sense!


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM

I was shocked

-0.72 ib/auth and -8.25 left right

Damn, I demand a recount.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM

Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.59

I have loads of Newts in the garden and always think Tony Benn makes more sense than NEW Labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

I think Newt would probably be something like

Economic Left/Right: 6.00
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -5.00


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: toadfrog
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:09 PM

Left/Right -4.38
Auth/Lib -4.46.
I feel awful wishy-washy. I also found it hard to figure out what some of those questions meant. Basically, I figure what this proves about me is that I'm sucker enough to waste time on dumb tests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM

Economic Left/Right: -5.38 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -6.62

I thought I'd come up a little less libertarian and a bit more to the left.

My mission today is to see if Troll will take the test.

Bald Eagle, thanks for a fun link.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Shields Folk
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:23 PM

Economic Left/Right: -5.25 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.72

I must admit I'm confused. Its a position I would like to think I was in but I know I'm flawed, and I sometimes drift more to the authoritarian. Conciously taking the test must influence your position but overall I'm happy with it. No I must admit I am not as liberal and left wing as Ken Livingstone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: AliUK
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:36 PM

left/libertarian a bit down and behind Gahndi...that was fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:49 PM

Economic -0.63 Is this good or bad? I answered all the questions honestly, but I am not too sure what the results mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:03 PM

Left libertarian, a bit high and to the left of Ghandi. And the asshole guest continues to call us racist????


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:13 PM

Authoritarin-1.33
Why is everybody getting higher scores than me? What does this mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: toadfrog
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:20 PM

Some of the questions baffled me. What does it mean to say "think globally but act localy"? That sounds like a non-political platitude. Is it somebody's slogan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Amergin
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM

not surprisingly...I was very left....

Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.75 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -6.05


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 02:12 AM

Interesting. -4.38, -5.90. I'm with john in hull though- not sure what it's actually telling me. Pretty limited list of historic figures- can you imagine coming up as a dead match for Hitler.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 03:30 AM

I think it tells you what you already know so its not really telling you anything
I guessed I would be opposite in views to Mrs T
I did think at times that I would like to sit on the fence with some of the questions but that isn't allowed
John in Hull it isn't about good/bad it just reflects how you see the world, higher 'scores' suggest peoples views are more extreme and possibly that they are less likely to be able to 'see' both sides of an issue
I would love my boss and his wife to try it though to see if they are far right of Mrs T as I expect


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Ringer
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:07 AM

All those negative scores: what a wishy-washy load of pinko liberals you all are *BG* ! However, from my own score, I estimate that you have to correct the results by adding at least 8, so I think you are all really mildly conservative. Which is a big relief to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Terry K
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:08 AM

Great fun.

At 0.00 and -1.44 I fall exactly between Robin Cook and Charles Kennedy.

Oh dear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: BlueJay
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 04:18 AM

Lib/ Left, a few squares below and to the right of the center of the quadrant. Hmmm. A bit farther to the right than I would have expected. Fun, anyway. BlueJay


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:23 AM

Lefty/libertarian -well no surprise there. Fell between Tony Benn (who is my hero) and Ken Livingstone (who isn't).Surprised I am not more authoritarian, given that people tell me I'm a control freak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John P
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM

I ended up about where I expected to: -6 right/left and -7 auth/lib.

Maybe I usually see the word "Libertarian" used differently, because the Libertarian candidates in elections usually piss me off. I believe in strong laws about how we treat each other, but think laws about what we do privately are terrible.

Ickle Dorritt, I'm a control freak also, but only with myself. I don't try to control other people -- and my day job is being the manager of a small company with 40 employees!

John Peekstok


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: English Jon
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:58 AM

Economic Left/Right: -6.25 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -6.67

About what I'd expected...

EJ


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Gervase
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM

Economic Left/Right: -4.50
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.00
Dunno what to make of that! Thought I was a tad more left that that, but ho-hum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:47 PM

I came out near Gandhi and Ken Livingstone. Good enough for me. When the Telegraph came out with a similar quiz, "are you a conservative" I was surprised to see thyat accoprding to that, I was.

But I think this Political Compass one is a lot more sophisticated than the Torygraph is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

That is to say:

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -3.28

Mind, I think there needs to be a third dimension around whether you tend to like things to change or to stay the same, other things being equal. Bit hard to show on a screen though. That gets mixed up in the left right spectrum, but it's different, as was demonstrated when they started referring to communists in Russia as "conservatives", or when Tony Blair starting using forces of conservatism as a ragbag to include all the people on they left who thought he was too right wing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Kim C
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM

Hmm. I am a leftist Libertarian. Damned if I know what it means...


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:24 PM

-6.75, -6.21, Benn and Ken territory. But I think there's a bias in the test. I suspect some of the +, + statements are so stereotypical that the only ones likely to agree are not very bright members of far-right groups. (Though I did once hear a member of the National Union of Teachers claim that as we were a democratic union, it was for those elected onto the committee to tell everyone else to do, and they would obey. If the expression had been around then, I would have been, like, hello?) Some of the characters on the graph did not assess themselves, as we did - and we can't tell which ones entirely. Maybe none did. And the assessment from outside will be different from that from personal assessment.

Interesting that there is a distinct trend from bottom left to upper right, with some people oddly off it. And the directions of proposed movement are curious. Could the political development of types be plotted like the life of stars on the main sequence diagram? Does anyone ever move down to the left?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:24 PM

Economic Left/Right -1.50 Auth/Libitarian -3.44

Seems right where I would put myself intuitively - Creepy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Metchosin
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:47 PM

Another Leftist/Libertarian here too. L/R -5.75, A/L -6.72


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:49 PM

Some of the time I found myself neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the point of view, but having a point if view that didn't really fit in.

For example we were asked to agree or disagree with the statement "I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong". But I believe that anybody who loves their country has a duty to oppose and resist their government when it goes wrong, and in doing so they are in fact supporting their country.

And there are other questions like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:02 PM

Hmmmm....questions seemed rather 'black & white', though I was surprised, when I saw the results, how Leftist AND Libertarian it suggested I was (no bad thing)...but from the slant of the questions (& a lack of opportunity to be non-committal on some very 'fixed' questions) I was surprised that I didnt come out both slightly into the Authoritarian AND Right-ist zones...

Frightening thas I'm close to the same area as Tony Benn & Arthur Scargill....

Economic Left/Right: -6.25 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.26


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:04 PM

I'm left -5.50 and libertarian -5.23. It seems most Mudcatters are firmly down in the liberal-left quadrant.

I only wish they had some American politicians listed for comparison. I'm down with Ken Livingstone and Tony Benn but I have no idea who they are.

Should Americans be rated on a different scale from Brits? I mean, liberal compared to what? I would guess the American "center" is more right-libertarian than the British center. Would you agree?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:15 PM

Jim - Even by UK standards Livingstone and Benn are VERY well to the Left. By US standards the mind can only boggle. *BG* John


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM

Gee, I didn't think I was THAT far left. After all, I do accept capitalism -- as a necessary evil -- for the time being --


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:25 PM

Ken Livingstone is pretty pragmatic. The way he wants to fund the London Underground is based on the New York model, for example.

At the other extreme I suspect that in American terms Iain Duncan Smooth would count as a fairly moderate right-winger in US terms. Things that here count as extreme right wing like favouring capital punishment seem to count as consensus politics in the States. And noone here would dare to propose changes to the health service that would mean we had to pay for treatment (though over the years that gets eroded and will be eroded further by New Labour. The Tories would be gearing up to oppose things like that if they have any sense. If...)

One thing with that quiz, I couldn't really work out how to decide whether to say I opposed or supported strongly or not. I mean, did that mean I'd be out on the streets protesting, or would swearing at the telly be enough to class disagreement as "strongly disagree"?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

McGrath: Yeah, I had the same problem, but the way I sort of worked it out was this: If I figured I agreed with a statement under pretty much all circumstances, I took the "strongly" option. If the statement were, say, "All capitalists are pigs," I would think, "Well, I know SOME capitalists who aren't pigs," so I would NOT choose the "strongly agree."


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

Slap on the verticle Libertarian. No deviation left or right.
Mr. Feebish, on the other hand is very authoritarian, Angie can't read, and Freddie did it as a crossword puzzle.
Freddie's weird. Chuck is still asleep.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

Economic Left/Right: -0.25 -- Nearly on-center Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.05 Well into the Libertarian half.

Seems right to me.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bert
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:28 AM

Just a little lower than Ghandi. I seem to be in every good company here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 07:07 AM

That's Gandhi, bret.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 07:41 AM

Wow we are a diverse bunch aren't we? *not*

Unless I missed one------welcome the first poster to this thread who score a + on the L/R scale (YYEEEAAAHHHHH hhhhhhhhhwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaa!) the crowd stands to their feet with wild applause.

Basically, I can tell you from a conservative to libertarian's point of view, the thing was unanswerable (I suppose you all saw it that way a bit too).

I could have written an essay on most questions.

Any question with an absolute (never, always, every, none, etc) forced me to choose one of the middle choices---even though I knew the concept they were driving at.

Almost all the questions that were to "weed out" the conservative mind, essentially misrepresents, or misunderstands (intentionally?) the reasoning behind a conservative ideology.

As a Bible-believing kinda guy, you'd have thought I'd score higher on the "authoritarian" scale. But that's the type of misunderstanding that these kinds of questionaires usually lead to.

One small change that I've noticed in "liberal" thinking over the last 20 years or so....In the most general of terms (of course). The liberal considers himself so non-authoritarian that the baby that goes out with the bathwater is practical authoritarianism.

The best example I can give is the different approaches in education---specifically reading. The liberal had a tendency (especially 20-30 years ago) to follow a sort of reasoning that went; "if there is an exception to a rule, the whole "rule" is illegitimate". So, for example, because phonics has exceptions, the whole concept was abandoned.

I am seeing lately that pragmatism has made certain demands on the liberal mind and, while liberalism is taking up the fight for ever more and more social acceptance of what was previously tabu, It has moderated somewhat on just how much a government can do (the "cradle to grave" ward of the state populace is mostly abandoned----to overstate my point).


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: sc
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

L/R -5.25 A/L -5.85 - Seems like almost everyone here is in the Ghandi area but that's not what I see around me in today's society. So ya think this thing is seriously flawed. Or are ole folkies are just naturally leftist libertarians? :) Peace! -sc


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 08:52 AM

...just occured to me what at least one of those "bent" assumptions is according to the questionaire.

The questionaire seems to accept the assumption that pro-corporation=conservative. Not true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bert
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Thanks a lot MgCrath. Why couldn't just let it slip, no one else noticed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 11:28 AM

John Hardly: I don't understand your post. What are you criticizing here, liberalism in general, or this Political Compass? Do you see the Compass as biased toward liberalism somehow? Why? Just because it didn't give you a chance to express all the nuances of your true thoughts? Well, it didn't give ME a chance to express all the nuances of MY (liberal) thoughts, either. Multiple-choice questionnaires never do. (And neither do ballots, come to think of it.) That doesn't mean it's invalid.

Can you give an example of a question that was meant to "weed out the conservative mind"? Also, please explain what you mean by "weed out" and why you think conservatives are "weeded out" more than liberals?

And (everyone) can we please keep the discussion focused on the Political Compass, its specific merits and demerits, and not on the merits and demerits of Liberals/Conservatives in general?


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM

"John Hardly: I don't understand your post." --Jim Dixon

obviously.


"Basically, I can tell you from a conservative to libertarian's point of view, the thing was unanswerable (I suppose you all saw it that way a bit too)."--John Hardly

Hardly a comment that implies that I didn't assume that liberals would see it the same way too.


"Can you give an example of a question that was meant to "weed out the conservative mind"? Also, please explain what you mean by "weed out" and..." --Jim Dixon

I pointed out two. 1. a misunderstanding that people who believe in absolutes=authoritarian, and 2.that a conservative would favor corporations. By "weed out" I mean cull, divide for the sake of categorizing (the function of the "compass")


"...why you think conservatives are "weeded out" more than liberals?"--Jim Dixon

I think I made it clear that I don't. It's just easier for me to notice when I'm being channeled away from the specifics of what I believe, just as I would assume you would about what you believe.


"That doesn't mean it's invalid."--Jim Dixon

Actually, I believe that there's a good chance that it does from a scientific point of view. If there is no way to actually express the specifics of what you believe (in an endeavor to catagorize along the lines of belief systems) you are probably misrepresenting rather large schools of thought. At least that is the thought behind my questioning the "Compass'" accuracy.


If you had read the "Political Compass" you'd see that it addresses a "shift" in the political spectrum. I merely address one of the things I've seen that could be a factor in why (that wasn't addressed).

Dammit man. The whole thread is liberals who agree with you. Why should my one dissenting observation make you so uncomfortable (even rude)?

"And (everyone) can we please keep the discussion focused on the Political Compass...and not on the merits and demerits of Liberals/Conservatives in general?"--Jim Dixon

I assume this is a general imploring (not addressed directly to me) but in case you still don't understand my post---I did exactly that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:36 PM

I wish DougR would have a go to see if it really works, Cllr would be good too


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

John Hardly: I didn't say your response made me feel uncomfortable. It doesn't. Your response was the most INTERESTING BECAUSE it was different from all the others.

And you said, "The liberal considers himself so non-authoritarian that the baby that goes out with the bathwater." That sure sounds like a criticism of liberalism in general to me. And where was I rude? At least I didn't use expressions like, "dammit man."


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Bert
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 12:29 AM

Here's the betting that Doug R comes closer to Gandhi than to Maggie Thatcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM

Jim Dixon,
I got an idea. Let's start over.

This "Why? Just because it didn't give you a chance to express all the nuances of your true thoughts? Well, it didn't give ME a chance to express all the nuances of MY (liberal) thoughts, either. Multiple-choice questionnaires never do." is what I thought bordered on rude. I fell into the old internet thingy of thinking that all caps=shouting. When you have to type all kinds of <<'s and B's and I's for nuance, capital letters are a much more accessible means of expressing emphasis.

Upon re-read I also realize that I am all wet. Because I knew what I meant I failed to realize that when I posted "Basically, I can tell you from a conservative to libertarian's point of view, the thing was unanswerable (I suppose you all saw it that way a bit too)" when taken grammatically, "I suppose you all saw it that way too", that would grammatically apply to my stated assertion, that being "from a conservative's point of view...thing was unanswerable". If I had wanted it to say what I I should have said, "I suppose you liberals saw it as impossible to answer from a liberal's point of view too."

In short, I was wrong. I apologize.

JH


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM

JH: Thanks for the apology. But instead of analyzing what was said, or what should have been said, I'd rather just go on from here.

Maybe I should explain a little more where I'm coming from. My first reaction to the survey/questionnaire/whatever-you-want-to-call-it was very positive. I sent e-mails to lots of my friends telling them about the site, recommending it to them, hoping they will take the survey, too, so that later we can compare scores. I haven't received any replies from them yet.

Your negative reaction to the site surprised me. I just wanted to understand a little better why you found it objectionable. I didn't mean to put you on the defensive (if that's what I did). Maybe, in the back of my mind, I was wondering if I did the right thing when I recommended the site to my friends. Maybe they will react negatively, too.

I still don't feel like I have a good grip on why you didn't like the survey. If you feel like explaining a little more, you will have my attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:57 AM

Whew.....that took a while. In order to make the assertion that I "knew where the questions were coming from" I had to re-test 4 times to see if I could manipulate the test in a predetermined direction. If I couldn't then I'd have to have assumed that my criticisms were a case of my taking it personally that my beliefs had no means of appropriately expressing themselves.

I guess that what I mean is that, as a the only one who's posted scores that were no more that 1.5 off center. That implies a moderate (to my way of thinking). I am not a moderate. There was just no way to express my thoughts without choosing answers that made my belief sound unreasonable or were asked from a false premise.

It seemed to me that the questions that were used to "flush out" (a more accurate metaphor than "weed out") were very much the "have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of questions. Perhaps a good example of this to start my side of this discussion is the "Charity is better than social security as a means of helping the genuinely disadvantaged". This may be because UK has a differant meaning for "Social Security", but here in the US that question is very much "Chicken is a better fruit than Apples for dinner" question. Social Security isn't designed to replace charity.

"If globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.

What's good for the most successful corporations is always, ultimately, good for all of us."

Both of the above quotes are based on the assumption that a conservative would vote on the side of corporations. Not true. But, if asked "can Free Market economies serve in the best interest of the poorest of societies?" I could answer unequivocally "yes". There is nothing I hate more in the liberal rhetoric than the assertion that conservatism is a heartless "I got mine" type of selfishness. I hold my conservative economic ideals because of a compassion for humanity.

Corporations are not a "conservative" idea. They in fact disrupt free market forces because the are actually a political entity. They may have begun as a reaction to liberal government actions but they are not a "conservative" solution.

"All theatres and museums that can't survive on a commercial basis deserve to perish" This question uses inflammatory language (perish)to direct the test taker that the concept itself is unreasonable.

"Marijuana and hashish should be legalised." By focusing on what are smaller cash, mostly rec drugs, it's a question that doesn't allow the test taker to answer positively and feel good about the answer. This is because it doesn't address the main issue of drug legalization. It's not about allowing a good time, it's about cutting the legs out from under high profit crime.

"Education should involve enabling children to develop their own personality" After a few years of education classes (teaching is a bullet I narrowly dodged) my take on this question is that it is designed to flush out a conservative education philosophy that desires a more basic education. Unfortunately it doesn't allow for the possibility that there's nothing inherent in basic education that would thwart personality development.


"There are no savage and civilised peoples; there are only different cultures" Again, the use of infammatory languge to make the reasonable seem unreasonable. I certainly do believe in superiority of one culture over another. I wouldn't refer to the inferior culture as savage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:47 AM

Wow I am pleased. Economic -7.50 and Authoritarian -7.08.Though there were some questions that were not explicit enough to be other than boarderline statments.I guess you lot in the states would think I am a pinko commie, but that's not true.I believe in the freedom and responsibility of the individual and that it can be brought about by education rather than controlled by regime or religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Penny S.
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:52 PM

I think some of what John saw in it is what I felt. I thought that the questions were designed in such a way that they seemed to be written from the bottom left quadrant, postulating what people in the top right quadrant might think. It would be better if the question compilers had been from all of the range of political thought.

If you run a search on Tony Benn and Ken Livingstone, you should find some background on them, and make up your minds on where they stand. I feel happier to be near Benn than Ken, because Livingstone is a much more manipulative political practitioner. His ideas seem OK, but he's not transparent.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:23 PM

"He's not transparent". I thought that when people said they could see through politicians that was supposed to be meant as a criticism...Can't win at that game it seems.

The line that people who make up tests like this always use, when told that the questions are biassed or ambiguous, is that they've tested them out with real people, and the resulting classification turns out to be accurate, when checked against other criteria.

It'd be interesting to know if they've done this here. Maybe someone could get on to them and inquire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

Hey Penny S.

From now on I'm going to email my thoughts to you and have you edit them to save band-width and spare everyone my ramblings. You said what I meant in 1/10 the words (or less). Thanks,

JH


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:13 PM

I think I have a better idea about the redesign of the questions. What if every line you had to agree or disagree with were an actual quote from an actual politician's speech or writings? And I mean an important speech, not just an off-the-cuff remark. It would have to be something well thought out.

Of course, there might still be some difficulty. A lot of speechmaking is deliberately ambiguous. But at least it would simulate what we all have to do in real life when we decide whether we're going to vote for someone or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: MarkS
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 11:11 PM

Wow - What a great site and test. Came out L/R 4.75 and Auth Lib -2.97. Guess that makes my views kind of unique here! Only on Mudcat.
BTW - Just who is Charles Kennedy? Could some of our UK friends let me know?
Thanks
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: GUEST,Penny S. (At work)(filtered!)
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM

Charles Kennedy is the leader of the Liberal Democrats, formed from the Liberals (of whom some are still the un-united Liberals) and the Social Democrats (who were once in the Labour Party - that is the original Labour Party, not the current "I can't believe it's not Tory" party). They are currently having their conference. He has appeared a lot on panel shows for his wit. Like a lot of the old Liberals, he's a Celt. Libs tend to do well round the Celtic fringe, and have had links with the Non-conformist Churches in the past.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: GUEST,Penny S. again
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:04 AM

Here's the website...

LibDemWeb


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:14 PM

Some of the questions seemed to be geared not to Authoritarian /Libertarian, or Left /Right axes, but to some other dimension on which we could be diferentiated. For example:

"When a person is troubled, it's better not to think about it, but to keep busy with more cheerful things."


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Ringer
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM

Like a lot of New Labour, too, Charles Kennedy is a Celt.

If you look at my opening post, John Hardly, you'll see that you're not the only one who's posted results less than 1.75.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Ringer
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM

Or even 1.5.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:11 PM

Mr. Eagle,

Please forgive my oversight---my excuse is that it was the first post so when I went back to see if my observation was correct I failed to even read yours again because...well I don't know why.

NOTHING pisses me off more than people posting without reading the thread. I therefore apologize.

upon reading your post now however, I think that it's interesting that you would seem to bolster my observation that it is indeed harder for a conservative to score conservative. You said "I've always considered myself to be right-wing (economically more so than politically), but was placed bang in the middle left/right ". I still postulate that this is because a people from the left WROTE the test, they reeally don't understand WHY a conservative believes the way he does---they relied on cliche' and and their own prejudicial beliefs about conservatives.

My guess is that if they ever cite this study to make a political point, they will have come up with a study that "proves" how "fringe" conservative thought has become.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM

I doubt if they'd use it that way, because it's clearly enough not intended as a scientific survey, how could it be?

I just did it again, trying to answer how I imagine a fairly toiugh minded, but not excessively so, conservative might answer - and I came out Economic Left/Right: 5.38
Authoritarian/Libertarian: 1.90

Which was more or less spot on Michael Portillo on the chart. So perhaps it's not so far out.

But I still can't see how a question about whether abstract art is rubbish or not ties in with either left/ right or authoritarian/libertarian. There's no reason why someone at the opposite ends of both these ranges should't give exactly the same answer to a question like that, and it might be either answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Ringer
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:29 AM

JH: I believe you're right in supposing that the test is skewed leftwards because it was written by "lefties". I believe that one of the "authors" (or patrons, possibly) of the site is Glenys (sp?) Kinnock. For those unfamiliar with her, she is the left-leaning wife of a left-leaning former leader of the Labour Party (before it was "New Labour"). I believe she's now a Member of the European Parliament, and her husband is certainly an EU Commissioner (unelected, unaccountable, spit, spit) - in charge, I believe, of anti-corruption inside the EU (he's got his work cut out!). Mr K, when leader of the opposition, was known as "The Welsh Windbag" (he's another Celt, slightly different flavour, though) - he was infamous for never using one word when he could get by with 147.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:57 AM

I'm still puzzled as to how questions about abstract art and ways of coping with worries relate to left/right or authoritarian/libertarian.

I'm also a bit puzzled why anyone should be upset to find thta they have scored leftish when they aren't, and so forth. When, as I mentioned above, the Daily Telegraph did a similar quiz a few years back, designed to determine whether you were a Conservative or not, and it decided I was, I was just amused. (But then as Ken Livingstone commented on TV the other day, when Tony Blair launched a diatribe against "the forces of comservatism" his main targets were on the Left.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM

MofH

"...to how questions about abstract art and ways of coping with worries relate to left/right or authoritarian/libertarian."

My take on it (having been exposed to MUCH authoritarian teaching in my youth)----it comes from an acceptance of absolutes in aesthetics.

Therefore, if you agree with the premise it should score you some pretty heavy "authoritarian" points on the scale.

We in the arts (whether music or visual) have all been exposed to authoritarian thinking that doesn't stop at the borders of their own taste----they must also impune the tastes of those who claim to find beauty/value in things they(the authoritarian ones) don't understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 12:03 AM

Many of the questions really sucked - many are ones I wouldn't answer because I thought were inappropriate, slanted, leading, unreasonable - but I selected the best answer among the choices given for each question and ended up with Charles Kennedy (whoever he is/was).

Economic Left/Right: 3.75 Authoritarian/Libertarian: -2.77


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 01:55 AM

An amusing test with some skewed questions. Like all such all such tests it allows no alternatives to the list of answers. As someone who is an old fashioned liberal I was amused by the narrowness of view and the absolutism of the positions postulated by the questions. my score= -3.25 L-R, -4.05 A-L

I'm not surprised by the results from a group of people who follow and/or play music. There is an inherently libertarian streak in musicians, necessary to learn an instrument in the face of social disapproval. And Music types are obviously interested in an anecdotal world and in human values, that's what the songs are mostly about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: leprechaun
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 11:01 PM

I agree with John Hardly, only he articulated the bias better than I could. I felt like the questions were squeezing me toward the left and away from authoritarian views. Many questions seemed to ask, "Do you agree with this reasonable, kind, left-wing libertarian view or are you an asshole?" It would be possible to re-write the questions and divert the results in the other direction. I didn't expect to see myself in the same quadrant with Gandhi, though maybe in the same half.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:01 AM

Magnetic fields are void in a flux of radiation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: DougR
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 11:05 PM

Roger of Sheffield: I read the first question and decided there was no point to my taking the test. Talk about a LOADED question! The test is too slanted, in my opinion, to offer any possibility of giving a true reading of one's political persuasion. In order to receive a score, one has to agree to some stipulations in some questions they may not agree with.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:08 AM

Hah, I haven't taken this test in a while... Can't remember my old results, but now I'm:

Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -9.08

Woo, way out in the Libertarian Left? Swell. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Political Compass
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:26 AM

Wow! Smack bang in between two of my politcal heroes - Tony Benn and Ken Livingstone.

I found it interesting that Tony Blair and Iain Duncan-Smith were in the same quadrant!

Cheers

Dave the pinko Gnome


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Mudcat time: 20 October 5:25 PM EDT

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