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morris dancers are racist gay men!!!(2001 thread)

GUEST,the rock 06 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM
Geoff the Duck 06 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Raggytash 06 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM
Banjer 06 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,Hille 06 Sep 01 - 06:57 PM
Liz the Squeak 06 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM
Big Mick 06 Sep 01 - 09:58 PM
Clinton Hammond 07 Sep 01 - 12:25 AM
Chris Amos 07 Sep 01 - 02:33 AM
GUEST,Genie 07 Sep 01 - 02:49 AM
GUEST,GUEST Magician 07 Sep 01 - 03:22 AM
MikeofNorthumbria 07 Sep 01 - 04:59 AM
Deni 07 Sep 01 - 05:15 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 07 Sep 01 - 05:29 AM
Steve Parkes 07 Sep 01 - 05:39 AM
IanC 07 Sep 01 - 06:33 AM
Martin S 07 Sep 01 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Genie 07 Sep 01 - 08:48 AM
Marymac90 07 Sep 01 - 09:21 AM
bill\sables 07 Sep 01 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,JohnB 07 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM
Ringer 07 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM
Lonesome EJ 07 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM
HelenJ 07 Sep 01 - 02:08 PM
Deni 07 Sep 01 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Across the water 07 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,:gargoyle 07 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM
CapriUni 08 Sep 01 - 02:10 AM
GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk 08 Sep 01 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk 08 Sep 01 - 03:35 AM
DMcG 08 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM
Shields Folk 08 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM
Jenny H 08 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk 08 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 08 Sep 01 - 03:11 PM
Wyrd Sister 08 Sep 01 - 04:45 PM
Wyrd Sister 08 Sep 01 - 04:49 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 09 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM
Herga Kitty 09 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM
Paul from Hull 09 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM
Steve Parkes 02 May 11 - 07:55 AM
terrier 02 May 11 - 09:27 AM
Steve Parkes 02 May 11 - 10:22 AM
katlaughing 02 May 11 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Eliza 02 May 11 - 12:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 May 11 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Eliza 02 May 11 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 02 May 11 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 02 May 11 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Eliza 02 May 11 - 02:22 PM
Steve Parkes 02 May 11 - 04:18 PM
Soldier boy 02 May 11 - 06:13 PM
Soldier boy 02 May 11 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,glueman 03 May 11 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,glueman 03 May 11 - 04:24 AM
Fokeman 03 May 11 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 03 May 11 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,leeneia 03 May 11 - 11:04 AM
ripov 03 May 11 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Eliza 03 May 11 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,leeneia 04 May 11 - 11:06 AM
Tyke 04 May 11 - 10:55 PM
Joe Offer 04 May 11 - 11:25 PM
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Subject: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,the rock
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

does anyone agree with me??? morris dancers are (a). racist. in the old days they used to paint their faces BLACK

(b). they prance around like julian clarey

(c). they look UGLY. have you ever seen a nice looking morris dancer??

(d). are there ANY morris dancers under the age of 40?

answers to the forum please.

to follow... penny whistle players... whacko or what??


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM

Oh PISS OFF and go do something useful!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM

Ditto, Geoff the Duck. Is there any way of preventing W***K**s from putting purile threads on? Cheers Raggy


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Banjer
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM

Now let's be nice here...Obviously his name is derived from an object he feels a kinship with, perhaps because of the matching IQ's?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Hille
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:57 PM

Yeah, let's be kind - in psychological terms it's probably personal projection - our lumpen friend probably feels deep down inside like a nancy-boy woofter and envies those with the courage of their convictions (and all the phallic symbolism right out there on show.)

Hille


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 08:19 PM

To C and D - yes!!! You just ain't looking in the right places - and he ISN'T gay either!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 09:58 PM

You know who pisses me off more than the flamers? People who feed them. Quit responding or quit bitching about them.

Mick


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Subject: morris dancers are racist gay men???
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 12:25 AM

Doesn't it take one to know one??

:-)


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Chris Amos
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 02:33 AM

Back in the mists of time the idea of painting the faces black was to hide the identity of the dancers rather than to ape africians, (or so I was told)

There are a huge vairity of morris sides in the U.K. apart from male only, female only, mixed we have a number of sides that couple dancing with other interests, body peircing, being a Goth, Hells angel, etc.

There may be a few miserable s*ds about but you will come across the same cross section you would anywhere.

regards


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 02:49 AM

Children, children sigh.

I don't understand why the English (and I do mean English - the Welsh, Scots and Irish all respect their traditions) seem to be the only country in the world who deride and ridicule their own traditions rather than trying to understand and cherish them. Mr Rock knows not of what he speaks. The border tradition is the one usually associated with black faces as a disguise (as Chris says). My understanding is that the dances accompanied begging during the winter when farm labourers were out of work and the disguise was to avoid the shame of this. I have been to a muslim country with a border team and the locals recognised the black face for what it was - a mask to hide identity. They were not offended in the least. As to Mr Rock's other comments - has he ever seen more than one morris side?

I despair.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,GUEST Magician
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 03:22 AM

As I understand it 'morris' is actually a corruption of the word 'moorish' and Morris dancing is Moorish dancing which came to Europe when the Moors owned most of Spain. Now the Moors come from Africa and their dancers would have had black faces (the ones they were born with) and obviously the tradition arose of painting the faces of Morris dancers black. Rather like the black and White minstrels they were copying the originators.

As for the comment 'prancing about' has anybody been clubbing recently? The epileptic gyrations and contortions of todays dancers owe as much to the war dances of Africa as Morris dancers do to the Moors.

Finally Julian Clary does not prance, mince I grant you but not prance. And he's a bloody good dancer. And have you noticed he's always with the best looking girls?.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 04:59 AM

Dearly beloved brethren and sistren of the Morris ...

Has it occurred to you that someone out there is trying to wind us up? So, let's just ignore them in a calm and dignified manner. And if that doesn't work, then, on the count of three, how about we all shout "PISS OFF!" in unison?

One ... two ... three... (Over to you...)

Wassail!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Deni
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 05:15 AM

This is not a response to the original post, but agree with guest Genie so strongly that I am repeating /his/her words here.

GENIE SAID... 'I don't understand why the English (and I do mean English - the Welsh, Scots and Irish all respect their traditions) seem to be the only country in the world who deride and ridicule their own traditions rather than trying to understand and cherish them.'

You hit the nail smack bang on the napper, Genie. curious isn't it? what are the best campaigns we can join to stamp out our embarrassment over English Traditions?

Cheers

deni


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 05:29 AM

Deni -

When you say 'our' embarrassment, do you in fact mean 'their' embarrassment, 'they' being your average lager-swilling, tattooed-neck hooligan who doesn't attend folky events? Are you embarrassed by Traditional English Folk StuffTM?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 05:39 AM

Genie: is it because the English traditionally don't have any respect for anybody's traditions? We used to be very good at going to foreign countries and banning their languages and stuff like that. And the Welsh, Scottish and Irish regiments may have been from Wales, Scotland and Ireland, but they were serving a king or quenn who was fundamentally English. (Or German, but lets not go into that!)

Steve


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: IanC
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 06:33 AM

I wish people wouldn't talk about "The English" as if we were all one stereotypical person. In past threads, we've had various statements about "The English" including one which said "we must always remember that The English are The Oppressor". Sometimes I get, not unreasonably I think, quite upset about this.

I am English. I do not disrespect other peoples culture, nor my own. I don't regard myself as anyone's personal oppressor either. PLEASE INCLUDE ME OUT.

Ian


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Martin S
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:37 AM

Read a good quote from an unluckily source yesterday. It speaks of Nationalism (as in pride in one's country or traditions) is all to often confused with racism. The source of the quoute? Palo De Canio!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:48 AM

OK, I know the "English" are difficult to pin down, that we are a mongrel race etc etc and I'm not embarking on that tricky debate but I think we understand what I meant. How many of you have been to multi-cultural festivals in England, organised with the best of intentions to promote cultural understanding etc (which I wholeheartedly support) at which there has been absolutely no representative "English" (or however you want to define it) cultural activity at all. Line dancing - yes, morris/rapper/social/playford/mumming - no! Is this reverse institutional racism or PC gone mad? But people like line dancing you cry! They might like "English" dance forms if they got to know them. What is it with a country where the national broadcasting corporation, our own dear BBC, can dismiss our native culture with derisive laughter. I refer to a recent edition of Excess Baggage on Radio 4 in which the reporter despatched to WOMAD seemed quite happy that there was no representation of "English" culture at this WORLD music event. I can't remember his exact words but it was something to the effect that c**p morris dancing would be all we had to offer - gales of derisive laughter. Yes some of it is c**p, but done well, and particularly in context, it can be breathtaking. And what about English tunes and song (we do have some of our own you know). I'll stop my tirade now but I think you can judge how strongly I feel on this one.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Marymac90
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:21 AM

Thanks, ya'll, for turning a flamer's nasty opening into an interesting discussion.

Marymac


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: bill\sables
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:29 AM

During the Millenium celebrations (New Years Eve 2000) I noticed every country in the world showed the traditional dance or song except England.
We has the bloddy Spice Girls.
This was just after 422 won the BBC Young Musicians Award. If they had just showed a couple of minutes of 422 and a trad dance side to show the world that Trad music in the UK was alive and well it would have pleased a lot of people. But I suppose money talks;
Bill


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM

Just wondering for one whether this applies to all of the ladies I know who dance Morris ? MikeofNorthumbria I have to disagree with your Piss Off statement, I think the originator should be invited to a Morris Ale to reiterate his opinion to a dozen or sides of dancers with big sticks. JohnB


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

Pace GUEST GUEST Magician, I understood that the dancers looked like Moors (ie folks from Morocco) because they blacked their faces, so their dancers were called "Moorish", which became "Morris". Not that the dances have Moorish origins.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM

I sthe "morris" related to Nine Men Morris, the ancient probably Celtic game found engraved on stones?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: HelenJ
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 02:08 PM

I think it was last year that Iread an article concerning the Carlisle Morris. They had been banned by the council from taking part in the annual festival because of blackened faces. (The uneducated reporter referred to them as a 'troupe' at which I cringed.) Despite their protests that their faces represented the local employment, i.e. mining, the council still maintained that the colour would be an insult to our 'colonial brethren'. I sent in a stinking letter (which wasn't printed) but I think there were many more in similar vein for, hey presto, suddenly the 'troupe' were allowed to take part. Hey - let's try living in the real world.

HelenJ.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Deni
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 03:14 PM

To the one & the only, the very only Dai,

No I didn't mean myself. That was a slip. I meant me/us as an English person.(i must admit to having some faults!) Actually I love trad. (TM), best. But I veer between being intensely proud of 'the English' (sorry Ian) and immensely ashamed at 'our/their' attitude to lots of things. However, aren't all people like that about their own culture. I've heard people from all backgrounds bemoaning the way their contrypeople go on. Actually, my family background is Irish, Welsh and Cornish, but I still, as I was born in England, am English.

You're all right. Whoever started out as a flame thrower has flared an interesting dicussion.

Ian, when people are talking in generalisations or referring to stereotypes, I never feel concerned. It never crosses my mind they might mean me!!!!!!! Maybe they are... D

Cheers all you people wherever you come from and thanks for the chat.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Across the water
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Actually Guest Genie, everyone isn't just like the English when it comes to their own culture. In fact, most of us aren't like the English at all in that regard.

I agree it is very complex. It might help if you learned more about how cultural nationalism and development of the nation state in the modern era (that's the one in which English colonial expansion was at it's peak)used English "tradition" as evidence of English superiority vis a vis the cultural traditions of those they conquered.

If you are too close to it, you might not be able to see how that happened vis a vis the conquered Celtic peoples in those islands. But if you give yourself a bit of a distance, say look at how the English depicted the cultural traditions of indigenous native peoples of the Americas, you might get a better sense of how it all works.

Just a thought.

You might also want to read up on how participating in revivalism/re-enacting isn't the same thing as participating in an on-going living tradition. I view the "English traditions" so often invoked as living revived and reinvented traditions. So that is another difference between "English traditions" and Irish ones (just to use an example). Irish traditions came very close to being wiped out (and some, in fact, are gone forever) both in Ireland and Britain, but the tradition has always remained strong in Irish American communities in North America. Sadly, that hasn't been true of Anglo American folk music to the same extent. There was no one ethnic community to maintain it and pass it on generation to generation as was the case with Irish traditional music in the US.

And IMO, Steve Parkes' message should be heeded. Colonizers look at "tradition" differently than the colonized do.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,:gargoyle
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM

Thank you for this thread.

It is precisely, the tone and intent which I expressed to the COUNSEL when requested by a M.C. memeber.

Laws, are Laws, are Laws, don't let the fruits take control.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: CapriUni
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 02:10 AM

As to the burnt cork that Morris Dancers use to paint their faces black:

Last year, I came upon the book "Santa Claus, Last of the Wild Men: Origins and Evolution of Saint Nicholas, Spanning 50,000 Years" by Phyllis Siefker.

She makes the claim that the practice of men painting their faces black goes back to ancient times, and is a ritual way for a shaman to impersonate the god of the wild, who was believed to tend the sacred fires, and therefore had a face continually covered with soot.

I also seem to recall learning from another source (which escapes me at the moment -- it was probably back twenty years or so), that in its earliest form, the ritual dance traditionally performed on May 1st started out as a representation of the battle between the forces of winter and the forces of summer. After the Crusades, this was changed to a battle between the Christians and the Moors, as is illustrated by the following lyrics from a May Day Carol (don't remember where it's from), "Hal-an-tow":

What happened to the Spaniards, To make them so great a boast-o? They shall eat the feathered goose, And we shall eat the roast-o!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:26 AM

it's worth remembering that people will say anything without the need for evidence. As someone who embraced, enjoyed and contributed, in an extremely minor way, to the general left wingery of the folk song scene, I was at first surprised on dancing with Chester, Bathampton and later Gorton to find a much more reactionary climate. Racism, sexism and homophobia being common. Gorton did dance at multicultural events and were extremely well received and once did a tour of pubs in Manchester's Gay Village and were much enjoyed.

Where did it all come from and what was it for? Maybe it doesn't matter. If so it can't be taken too seriously. If it does can we be a little more honest about it. I seem to rember an article in an EFDSS magazine showing the origins of Morris were in German courtly dancing. Anybody rember this?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:35 AM

it's worth remembering that people will say anything without the need for evidence. As someone who embraced, enjoyed and contributed, in an extremely minor way, to the general left wingery of the folk song scene, I was at first surprised on dancing with Chester, Bathampton and later Gorton to find a much more reactionary climate. Racism, sexism and homophobia being common. Gorton did dance at multicultural events and were extremely well received and once did a tour of pubs in Manchester's Gay Village and were much enjoyed.

Where did it all come from and what was it for? Maybe it doesn't matter. If so it can't be taken too seriously. If it does can we be a little more honest about it. I seem to rember an article in an EFDSS magazine showing the origins of Morris were in German courtly dancing. Anybody rember this?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM

I seem to remember reading a very long article by Cecil Sharp on the the origins of the dance and term 'Morris' which basically concluded 'No idea, really'. As far as I know, that's pretty much still where we are!

There's certainly a major blind spot in the English (as opposed to English-speaking) culture for traditional anything - dance, music, costume, whatever. Is there a thread (or site) for local English stories, for example?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Shields Folk
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

Just a comment about the lack of culture of the English and the existance of Irish 'celtic' culture and tradition. Irish culture is not 'celtic' and culture and tradition between Ireland and England have cross polenated for nearly 1000 years. Perhaps it's time for the English to take a snapshot of their culture and reinvent it as the true English one (surely it is our'celtic' cousins who have reinvented tradition). Or then again the English could accept that their culture is not set in stone and accept what has survived and is relevant and what has been allowed to fall by the way side.

ps. I have not oppressed anyone. But I quite expect to have my opinions, culture and history oppressed by mudcats 'celtic commandos'


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Jenny H
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

Hey, you lot are on the wrong discussion! This morris origins stuff belongs on the MDDL >g<

Anybody wanting to know the facts, such as they are, about morris origins could try:

http://www.usol.com/~rsholmes/morris/realhistory.html

Damn - sorry, I forgot this wouldn't automatically come up as a link and if I go looking for the instructions on how to do it I'll probably lose my place! Fraid you'll have to copy 'n paste.

And, although I fully agree that nowadays blackface morris has no racial intentions, there is disturbing evidence, for which I can probably find the link if anyone really wants it, that it was originally related to the fashion for 'n****r minstrels' in the C19th. Although there is evidence that Renaissance morris may have included one or more figures representing a Moor, I don't think there is any of a whole side blacking up before the C19th.

Jenny H
///
:-)
\\\


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM

Good point from Shields. Good tunes, songs and dances aer rarely denigned the floor. Where did Lilibelero (sorry for the spelling) come from. Is the Wild Rover English, Irish or what. Tha Albion Band don't sound like Planxty but I bet they have more than the odd tune in common. Irish people have taken tunes & songs to most places and brought plenty back, I just find those Reels too hard to play.

Historically the English commercial classes did get about a bit but the nature of their relationship with other people didn't exactly lend itself to tune swopping, especially when the troops followed.

Morris does seem to be perculiarly English and worth enjoying and saving just for its own sweet sake. But can we have Morris on the right scale. Some performances are the Rock equivalent of Stadium gigs. And can we stop prending things about its origin for which their is no evidence.

We once went to the Celtic Festival at Lorient, Brittany. Alan Stivells Stadium performance with 10,000 pipers, choirs and god only knows what else was amazing, but the Fest Noz in the villages, even when put on for us holiday makers was something else. Often just the surprano bagpipe and the short pipe with a reed in it. strange tunes in strange times but stuff to make your hair stand on end. Moriis etc. can do that but it does very often. I think it should be smaller, darker and more scarry.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:11 PM

Guest Les in Manchester. The tune Lilli Burlero was probably written by Henry Purcell (1659-1695) and appears first published in Musick's Handmaid in 1689. The original verses are a protest in pseudo Irish against King James II nomination of general Talbot, Earl of Tyrconnel to the lieutenancy of Ireland in 1687. Talbot was unpopular because of his treatment of Protestants during the previous year when he was Lieutenant General. Everyone in England sang the song and they were partly responsible for the Revolution in 1688. It was used as an army quickstep march for seventy years, but was dropped to avoid causing offence to Irish Roman Catholic Regiments. Yours, Aye. Dave (from Rochdale)


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 04:45 PM

Guest across the water - what time scale do you use to differentiate 'living' from 'reinvented'? I'm thinking Abingdon, Abbots' Bromley etc. Admittedly there are many new teams enjoying themselves and the 'living tradition' but that doesn't imply there is no original.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 04:49 PM

PS Is there any way of re-naming threads like these that turn themselves into something maybe worth discussing, but have titles which put many off? Or is it a case always of search for old/start new?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM

Morris dancing is nice, I found a good site for people that want to start morris dancing, here it is=
www.open-morris.com


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

Morris, when performed by fit and energetic young men, who use any extra time in the music to spend off the ground/ in the air, is fantastic. Sadly, much of it these days is as recorded by Helen Akitt:-

Granddad Goes Dancing on May Day

'Tis fifty one spring times since he was a lad But we are quite worried about our Granddad He pockets his hankies, straps on his bell pads And Granddad goes dancing on May Day.

And each May Day morning the Morris go out And we're up with the lark to see him dancing about With all of his friends with their beer bellies stout When Granddad goes dancing on May Day.

He says that the dancing keeps him fit and strong And its good for his breathing to sing a few songs But we think the free beer is why he goes along When Granddad goes dancing on May Day.

Now all of the others are Granddads as well But that doesn't stop them go out ringing their bells If it's a rite of fertility then it's hard to tell Why Granddads go dancing on May Day.

There's a straight row of tankards lined up on the bar And Granddad will always have just one more jar But it's always poor Grandma who must drive the car When Granddad goes dancing on May Day.

 Helen Akitt June 2001 (MCPS)


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM

Hehehehe...

Excellent...didnt know of that before, though I have been known to sing the original.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 May 11 - 07:55 AM

At the risk of disturbing a few sleeping dogs, I've been singing this song for quite a while with some success. Yesterday I cobbled together a video for May Day (it was either that or get up at 5 a.m.) Sorry the sound quality is awful, but I haven't been able to fix that -- and my singing doesn't help!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: terrier
Date: 02 May 11 - 09:27 AM

I think your singing helped a lot, wouldn't have been able to hear the song otherwise :) Nice one Mr Parkes.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 May 11 - 10:22 AM

Well, I think the pictures are good -- I stole them all, except Mrs P & the Morris Minor, which is ours, appropriately.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 May 11 - 11:30 AM

That was so charming and sweet, Steve. You sound great! Thanks for sharing it. I think it deserves a thread of its own, though! Just think of how fit all those granddads are!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:11 PM

How dare you, Guest the Rock! My husband is a jet black West African, and everywhere we go to Morris festivals, the Morris dancers seize him, hand him a stick and lead him into their dance. He's had them ask for photos, he's had hugs, he's had tears in his eyes at the kindness and friendliness of the Morris. Racist? Don't be so daft!
As to good-looking, I wonder what YOU look like?
Anyway, I think you are HORRID!!!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:15 PM

Look at the date of the posts, Eliza! I think Guest the Rock has long ago sunk out of sight.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 May 11 - 12:18 PM

You're right, McGrath, he's long gone. Let's hope it was just a wind-up.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:01 PM

racist. in the old days they used to paint their faces BLACK

Many still do, in the name of TRADITION, although it's a very recent morris revival fashion (along with increasingly outlandish kit, feathers and adornments you never saw in my young day). I'd say if they're not intentionally racist (no doubt harbouring stern opinions about Political Correctness Gone Mad and England's Precious Heritage etc. etc.) then they're pretty stupid. But, as with so many things, we've been here before. Love morris, hate racism. If you must paint your face, paint it green like so many of them do.

As for the rest of the post, I'd say Hexham Morris has some beautiful dancers, and many rapper sides too (saw the Addisons in full flight at the weekend - a fine & wondrous sight). Under the age of 40? Plenty that I know of. We had the Nettleworth kids rapper dancing alongside the Addisons and not one of them over 40!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:07 PM

PS - There is nothing effeminate about being Gay or dancing Morris; all my Gay pals aren't in the slightest bit effeminate and all my effeminate pals are mostly straight (and not into Morris).


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 May 11 - 02:22 PM

In any case, however would you KNOW a dancer was gay? It's not written on his head! And why would it matter? The side I follow a lot, Kemp's Men in Norwich, have a selection of younger (married as it happens) men, VERY old ones (ie eighty, and still leaping about) and NO racist men. At the Morris Ring meeting in Weston-Super-Mare a few years ago, I saw quite a few Indian, Pakistani, African etc Morris dancers, one in a turban. Also, some super young sides, teenagers who did very athletic-style Morris dancing. People who make these silly sweeping statements probably don't know the first thing about Morris. It makes me hopping mad, as Morris dancing of all kinds is one of my great joys, and has given me enormous pleasure over the years.
As to the black faces, The side called Old Glory have very blackly painted faces, and at the Straw Bear two years ago, made my husband laugh as they took his photo alongside them; they said he certainly didn't need 'blacking up', and HE reckoned he was even blacker than they were! No racism, just lovely friendly people.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 May 11 - 04:18 PM

You're very kind, Kat. I've taken you at your word started this thread. Did you look at my other videos, btw (he asked immodestly)?


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Soldier boy
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:13 PM

Nice that people didn't rise to the bait of this thread and instead turned it into a civilised and cultured debate. Well done everyone.

So where is the creator of this thread, GUEST the rock ?

Seems 'the rock' (sounds very kind of macho-gay to me!)just intended to throw his little wind-up grenade and then run for cover and not put his head over the parapet again and then his intended 'grenade' ended up being just a damp, limp sparkler.

So come on you little coward where are yer?????

Max, can you please ask your Mudcat police/regulators to check on his previous postings and monitor his future 'contributions' and take appropriate action to keep such degrading juvenile poop away from your esteemed creation that is Mudcat.

Best regards

Chris


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Soldier boy
Date: 02 May 11 - 06:20 PM

Sorry Max also meant to say...and kill/swipe this thread from the page.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:19 AM

Don't wipe it. It's an outrageous bit of trolling but shows how such posts can be dealt with by humour or to trigger intelligent discussion. The question 'when did you last beat your wife' should only trouble wife beaters.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 03 May 11 - 04:24 AM

Just to add, I don't think I've ever met an openly gay racist.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Fokeman
Date: 03 May 11 - 08:51 AM

Come to think of it, I think there was an openly gay racist in the news recently. It's always the exception that proves the rule. (I don't think he'll get much work for top couture companies in the near future).


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:02 AM

I think the title is beyond a joke. I think its a published insult - I don't approve of its existence.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 May 11 - 11:04 AM

Thanks for the song about Granddad dancing on Mayday.

A couple weeks ago, the auto section of the paper had an article about the marketing of cars for women. Auto company spokesmen (and women) said that women today feel "deeply vulnerable." (Boy, do I know what they mean.) As a result, the cars they market for the lady of the house are bigger and heavier than they really need to be.

What does this have to do with Morris dancers?

To me, as a modern woman, a man who dances Morris is more appealing than a movie-type he-man. The Morris dancer offers humor, companionship, and a healthy ego. And he's definitely more cuddley. The movie types seem violent and untrustworthy. The next person he slugs or insults might be me.

"Deeply vulnerable." Remember that.


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: ripov
Date: 03 May 11 - 12:52 PM

Elizabeth I, Mary. Victoria, more Elizabeths; not gay, just proud of our old queens!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 May 11 - 01:37 PM

You're so right, leeneia. Before I met my husband, I used to go on my own to Morris festivals. After the dancing was over, there was usually an evening of music and song in the different pubs. I would NEVER have gone alone into a pub, but the lovely Morrismen always treated me with great kindness and respect, and looked after me so well, I never felt ill at ease. It's true, they're real gentlemen, and that is very, very attractive to ladies! It's a wonderful tradition, and I won't hear a word against Morris dancers!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:06 AM

Right on, Eliza!


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Tyke
Date: 04 May 11 - 10:55 PM

Come on Joe Offer I thought Guest were not alowed to start none Music Threads Please close this and block this racest. Just send his internet details to the Police in England if that is were he has posted from and we can get him locked up out of harms way!
George Clarke


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Subject: RE: morris dancers are racist gay men!!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 11 - 11:25 PM

Yes, George, non-members are not allowed to start non-music threads. That policy was instituted in 2008. This thread was started in 2001, and reopened by Mudcat member Steve Parkes on 2 May 2011. Please direct your inquiries to Mr. Parkes, and ask him why he thought it would be a good idea to reopen this hateful thread.

Thread closed due to blatant bigotry.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-
See the thread titled Granddad Goes Dancing on May Day, the thread Steve started once he "saw the light."


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Mudcat time: 17 July 7:52 PM EDT

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