Nagging the audience to sing

Subject: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Marion
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 11:17 PM

I was listening to a live album of a folkie singer/songwriter that I like, and was disappointed to find him dragging out the choruses of several songs while pestering the audience to sing... "Louder! Now add some harmonies! Without the guitar this time! Just the ladies! Now the men!" and so on.

I think it's one thing to tell the audience that they can sing if the spirit leads them, but to keep doing the chorus over and over while barking out orders... am I the only one who finds this annoying?

It seems kind of fake, too, when the audience participation is the result of pressure rather than happening spontaneously.

Marion

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 11:49 PM

It's about as cheap as people asking "Is everybody having a good time?" Or mentioning a local sports team in yer act...

If ya can't get applause on your own, don't bother...

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:12 AM

Audience manipulation can be fun, to a degree. And given the general reserve of the average crowd, sometimes at a smaller show it's necessary to 'prompt' them to get them clapping along and all. Of course, it CAN be overdone. If you're setting the time for your rhythm section, you may just have lost the crowd...

Anecdote from a show I went to... It was a Big Concert At A Stadium, David Bowie headlining. Lenny Kravitz (pseudo-'60s retro musician) opened... at that point, his 'big hit' was "Let Love Rule". He ground through a set that had the audience writhing in their seats (or just leaving for the beer stands), and finally ground to a halt in the middle of the 'hit'. At that point, he launched into an incoherent ramble, followed by an exhortation that "as long as one of us is free, we're all free, we're all singing, so sing along!", and then back into the chorus where he waited (mic outstretched) for us to join in...

I think I heard crickets. NOONE joined in.

Mr. Kravits slogged through the remainder of that song, and quietly left the stage.

M

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:47 AM

I think those things can work given the right circumstances - meaning, if both performer and audience are in the same groove - or can fall flat on its face, as in SeanM's recollection. In a related vein, my experience doing kids programs is that often the adults are into it as much as the kids, sometimes more so, so I think adults sometimes want some "game" like things to happen when they're asked to sing along. It is, though, a risky move. It can't come off annoying, embarrasing, or patronizing, which, Marion, it sounds like in this case.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:43 AM

That's sometimes a dificult thing to guage, though it does sound as if this guy went too far.

There are times when you can rally an audience to greater energy and all have more fun for the effort, there are times when the audience truly wishes to simply enjoy what they are hearing without having to make a lot of effort, and then there are times when the audience wishes they were having root canal, and the more you push them to become a part of your world, the more you are simply prolonging the agony.

The tough part is knowing which time is which.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: MMario
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM

The times I have seen something like this done were usually when the crowd is already wound up and going - and the repeats of the chorus ADD TO the performance.

But that is direction rather then harrassment.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: GUEST,Guest MC Fat
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:52 AM

Iain MacKintosh the excellent Scottish musician told me a story about Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor flopping at a concert in Edinburgh. They got to their last number announced it and did a bit of an intro, did the song and got no more than polite applause at which point the audience started to leave their seats, Robin & Jimmy rushed on and milked an encore but a voice in the audience shouted 'Och you promised that was the last'

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Hamish
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:15 AM

Ah. Audiences joining in, eh? Just back from Swanage, where I did my biggest ever gig. (Okay, it was as MC/warm up to Kate Rusby, but still, I've never sung to 300+ people before...) And I opened with a song with a long, complicated chorus. And few in the audience would have known it beforehand. But they joined in. Loudly. I know it worked.

Here's the formula (which I'd rehearsed in front of quite a few smaller audiences beforehand...). Sing the simple tail-end of the chorus first. Ask 'em to try it. Are they up for it? Yes. Good, try 'em on the long complicated bit. Sing it through; repeat, speaking it clearly (and explaining the tricky words) and ask 'em to try it.

(If they'd gone blank on me for the simple bit, then it would have been plan b (i.e. forget it!))

There's no way they would have got the hang of that chorus without all the help - 'cos there're only three verses!

Oh dear I seem to have gone all pompous. Bet my floorspot in front of a couple of dozen tonight bombs...

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:17 AM

I don't mind a bit of "direction" if the mood is right and people are happily joining in.

Where it gets uncomfortable is when the invitation to sing becomes a demand. People these days at concerts don't normally sing along on choruses unless they're given permission. (Is it not ironic that people at a folk concert wait to be told to sing, but if folks at a rock concert know the words, they enthusiastically join in on the entire song? Which type of music is more "owned" by the people? Note that milage may vary based on the audience.) I don't normally sing along unless other people sing, or the performer encourages it. (In the case of the latter, it doesn't matter if anyone else in the audience sings, I'll belt it out.) When performers continually try to get folks to join in who just don't want to, it shifts the focus away from the music onto crowd control.

The clapping thing has got to go, though. You know what I'm talking about? Rousing song, the performer holds his hands up and demontrates to the audience that he's clapping and he'd like them to as well. Audience starts clapping. Musician resumes playing and clapping dies down. Musician repeats demonstration of clapping...

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:38 AM

I usually find this extremely annoying, especially when it's dragged out and the audience is treated like kindergartners "That was terrible...let's try it again...No, louder...louder...One more time..." Nothing wrong with inviting the audience to sing along or clap, but I hate it when the performer makes a big production and wrings it out of them.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM

Audiences differ. With a typical folk audience in England the bigger problem with a well known song is that people join in the verses as well. One line and they're away.

Non-folk audiences need permission. And of course the song is less likely to be familiar anyay. And my impression from what I've read the Mudcat is that Americans generallly are more reluctant to join in anyway.

The line between singers who encourage and enable people and those who can be seen as nagging them is a fine one, and is pretty subjective. I always admire people who can walk that line and can lead an audience that didn't realise it was able to sing into singing out, and sounding good singing, and enjoying the experience and the sound.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:55 AM

Recovering at the office from a weekend at Wheatland (in Michigan). Yegodsandlittlefishes am I knackered.

We (my band and I) try and measure the audience response/participation and use THAT as a guide to what may be "nagging" to some people. If the crac is good and we've got them wrapped around our little finger musically - and they like the music and what not, then a little playfullness once in a while makes it a bit more fun for us (as players) and them as participants. Encouraging people who are singing along on their own is one thing - rather like giving permission to sing LOUDER - forcing the issue is exactly that.

If you're playing a place that you've never played before, or bands of your type rarely play, sometimes subtle (or not so subtle) cues are appreciated, no?

I remember one small town we played at this summer where we stole a Fionna Ritchie line and "defy'd them to keep their feet still." We finished the first part of the first reel and there were a dozen people dancing - finished the set of reels and there wasn't room to move for all the people up - never mind we'd played plenty of tunes before that, we just told them it was ok to react to what was going on.

Back to my nap... ummmm... work.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM

Hamish that didn't sound pompous - just good advice. Congrats on having a good time & getting the audience going. Sounds like you got them warmed up really well.

kristin

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: GUEST,Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 11:45 AM

Alex Campbell used to say "This is a folk song, and if you folk don't sing, it ain't gonna work!" Hard to imagine one of Alex's audiences needing a prompt, I know, but it always worked. Hell yes!

Steve

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 11:52 AM

Yes, Alex Campbell was the only singer I've known who was naybe even better than Pete Seeger at getting an audience to sing.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: GUEST,John Leeder
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM

I was at a folk festival where a well-known Irish band spent a lot of time trying to get the audience to sing, clap, hoot & holler, etc., when the audience were really there to hear the superb playing and singing which the band were capable of providing. They wasted time on cheap bar-band tricks which they could have used to slip one more number into the program. I felt cheated. Perhaps the band felt that North American audiences are ignorant about Irish music, and have to be won over with tacky theatrics.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM

*remembering 20 years ago...Jean Redpath saying "weel, some of these songs hae fine choruses, but if ye dinna want to sing along, I nae can force ye...but on the other hand, if ye've a mind TO sing, I nae can stop ye!"

it set the mood quite well....and she was absolute master at controlling where applause and singing was allowed by smoothly moving from one song to another and letting us know by body language and delivery where we were 'encouraged' to sing...

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

I like concerts where the singing seems to be spontaneous. As an audience member, I dislike being cajolled, coerced, or ridiculed into participating. I agree, it can be a fine line.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 05:49 PM

Hate it! I pay good money to hear a performer I like. And then I have to listen to the tone deaf chorus in the rear insisting on singing harmony. Of course, by virtue of the fact that they are in the rear, they are also always precisely one and one half lines behind.

Sorry - bad day. Jury duty. Suddenly I am in favor of the death penalty for the lawyers and judges who are wasting my time.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: GUEST,ned Ludd
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM

Hate audience pestering,but I don't mind persuasion aslong as they know when to stop!

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: breezy
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 07:20 PM

we had 18 at the bull tonight and all were singing, its as you said , you only bomb in chesham. you do talk very clearly to mainly english audiences , quite an achievment for a scottish folker. note the spelling. c,u.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: breezy
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM

hamish, did you plug your gig for the 5th. oct. at the silver cup harpenden or were you too busy?

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Burke
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 07:27 PM

I think most everything about mood of the audience has been said.

Marion mentioned hearing the direction/nagging on a recording. Whatever rappor that's between the performer & the audience is close to impossible to get on a recording. I tend to like 'recorded live' recordings for the sense of the audience, but there's a limit to the being there feeling, especially with the multiple repeats of the chorus. It was probably fine at the real concert.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 07:55 PM

I have a very very VERY hard time NOT singing along if I know the words. I try to sing very softly until given permission by the singer but don't always succeed... but I resent being told HOW to sing, especially to do harmonies (I can't) or to sing melody while someone right near me harmonizes (I can't, I start chameleoning into what I hear and get lost halfway)... it's supposed to be FOLK, not classical, after all... d'après moi.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM

I don't like nagging in any form. But even worse than nagging people to sing, is nagging them to DANCE!

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: toadfrog
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:48 PM

I agree with Marion. It may indeed be a fine line. A singer who expresses dissatisfaction with the way the audience's is performing is approximately one mile over that line, on the wrong side. Seems to me if the audience is unenthusiastic, perhaps it's a lousy song. Maybe I don't like the job the performer is doing, either, but I have never yelled at a performer in the middle of a song and told him/her to shape up. Seems to me that should cut both ways. Especially if I'm paying to be in the audience.

On the other hand, if the audience does join in, it seems only fair they should sing the way the singer asks them to.

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Pelrad
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 10:01 PM

No way, Sinsull; it's the guy rattling the bones with abandon but no great skill in the back row who's got to go. Them and the misguided soprano who thinks she's in an opera. The tone-deaf people, at least those who KNOW they're tone-deaf, usually sing under their breath in my experience...

From what I've seen, it's not the folkies who need encouragement to sing along at a concert. It's the mainstream or radio-raised crowd who attend a folk concert only on occasion who need the encouragement. Not direction, just encouragement. I love the performers who make a point of commenting on how great it sounds from the stage, even if it didn't.

As Jon Campbell said once to an audience that was not helping on the chorus, "You need just the right amount of apathy for a sing-along. I think we almost got it that time."

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Mudlark
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 11:15 PM

Since I love to sing (and sound so much better in a crowd than I do all by myself) I also have a hard time not singing along, if I know the song. So am thrilled when the performer indicates it's all right. But what helps me refrain from humming along under my breath when NOT asked, is knowing how irritating it is to me to hear others doing it....I didn't come to hear an amateur diluting my experience....

It seems to me that any performer that can't gauge when, and when NOT, to urge on an audience, needs to take Performer 101 over again....

Subject: RE: Nagging the audience to sing
From: Hamish
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 07:11 AM

Two thoughts:

i) I guess we're talking about enabling (which is good) and bullying (which, er, isn't)

ii) I remember some enthusiatic but arhythmic kids dancing at the back of our club to an Irish band. One of the band said "We love people dancing and clapping. It's customary, however, to clap in time with the music".