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AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO

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catspaw49 11 Sep 01 - 11:44 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 11 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 11 Sep 01 - 11:48 AM
Amos 11 Sep 01 - 11:50 AM
Amos 11 Sep 01 - 11:55 AM
wildlone 11 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM
catspaw49 11 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM
sophocleese 11 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM
Hollowfox 11 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM
katlaughing 11 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM
SharonA 11 Sep 01 - 12:00 PM
Big Mick 11 Sep 01 - 12:02 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 11 Sep 01 - 12:02 PM
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bill\sables 11 Sep 01 - 12:03 PM
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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:44 AM

Time for another thread as we continue to worry and pray for all involved.......Many NYC Catters to hear from including Sinsull and Larry (InOTB).........

Nothing approaching this magnitude of coordinated terrorism has ever happened.......As Mick said, there will be some dirty work first, but I can only hope that all the nations will get together on this and put an end to this most horrendous type of cowardly warfare.......So many thousands of innocents here........

Latest report stated that United Airlines is "gravely concerned" about yet another missing flight......

PREVIOUS THREAD IS HERE

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:46 AM

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_395838.html?menu=news.latestheadlines

Ananova : Some planes 'still unaccounted for' say US authorities

US aviation authorities are reporting several planes are unaccounted for.

They are said to be in addition to the ones which have already crashed.

A plane which hit the ground 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, is believed to have been a Boeing 747 on route from Chicago to New York.

There are still reports that one aircraft is heading towards Washington.

ITN reports Canada is shutting down all airports.

World travel has been thrown into chaos. Many US-bound flights had already left the UK when American officials decided to close all US airports.

Officials at other America-serving UK airports, including Heathrow and Gatwick, are trying to cope with the travel backlog.

These airports, too, would have had passengers already in the air and heading for America, with hundreds of others due to travel later today.

Story filed: 16:19 Tuesday 11th September 2001


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:48 AM

The number for any UK residents concerned about friends/relatives 0207 008 0000


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:50 AM

Osama Bin Laden announced three weeks ago that his people would launch an unprecedented attack against the United States. The rationale was retribution for the US' support of Israel.

This certainly qualifies.

It also answers Mick's question about what could drive people to so desperate a measure.

Our whole team has been told they may go home from the research base where i work if they are uncomfortable there; although I wasn't particularly uncomfortable, my BBW's concerns prevailed.

I am sorry to say that I believe an act of war, and a second day of infamy, is with us this morning. The body count may well match Pearl Harbor's, I have heard.

I cannot imagine what the scenario Bin laden's plannersa could have had in mind would be in terms of benefit to their people or their concerns. If this analysis of the source of these attacks is concerned, Bin laden himself will be buried in a bunker before a year is out. His people will not benefit and may in fact support grievous harm because of his psychotic and juvenile actions.

I am clearly making assumptions here, with very skimpy real data. It is a possible interpretation only.

Stay well, friends, stay brave, and for god's sake stay awake and rational. Striking blindly will be worse than not striking at all. This may be war, or it may not be; it is not chaos.

Amos (Reposted from Part I)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:55 AM

• Israel has evacuated all its missions around the world.

• The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta was evacuated. CDC was preparing bioterrorism teams in case they become necessary.

• Philadelphia landmarks were also evacuated.

• In Chicago, the Sears Tower was evacuated; United Nations in New York evacuated.

• The New York Port Authority said it had closed all bridges and tunnels into the city.

• U.S. stock markets were closed after the New York attacks.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: wildlone
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM

Just home from work and saw the news.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Heavy Military air traffic in area at moment.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM

United announced that a second of their flights, 175, which they were "gravely concerned" about, has also gone down....no details yet. That's FOUR airliners involved at least.

Highly organized and yes Amos, another day of infamy.....and I echo your thoughts and concerns....

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

All flights in Canada have been cancelled. Canadian Airports are scrambling trying to deal with an increase in international flights.

Osama Bin Laden seems to be the leading contender for responsibilty for this. But as we have just been reminded on the radio, after Oklahoma it was thought to be international terrorism and that wasn't. At this moment a lot of what we hear is rumour and unconfirmed, educated and intelligent rumour, but rumour nonetheless.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Hollowfox
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM

As a quick, surreal note, both the university and the library system are shutting down from noon todat until tomorrow. Now to go home, try to get better nres off the TV, and pray.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM

Sinsull is okay! She was on jury duty in Queens, and just got home.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:00 PM

New Jersey Turnpike is closed. (The north end of this highway leads into New York City.)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:02 PM

I just saw footage of the celebration in the streets of the Palestinian areas.......children smiling, car horns tooting, candy being handed out..........they should enjoy this day, because I fear they will not have much to celebrate very soon..........much misery will be visited very soon..........watching these people celebrate the deaths of so many civilians makes it hard to keep the rudder centered...........but we must. We have such a formidable weapons cache, that if our leadership doesn't maintain a deliberate, and surgical, view of this we could very well enter into a tragic circumstance.......


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:02 PM

Jon Freemans new forum is available for anyone wishing to add their prayers/thoughts, maybe we could keep this thread for news of loved ones etc.(this is only a sugestion)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:03 PM

Still waiting to hear from Larry, thosp, Joy Bennett, Suffet and others..........


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: bill\sables
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:03 PM

Has anyone heard anything from Dan & Bonnie Milner, and Joy Bennett yet?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,Mikey Joe
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM

This seems to confirm Palestinian Involvement FROM SKY NEWs

Palestinians Celebrate Attacks Palestinians gave away sweets in the West Bank city of Nablus to celebrate a series of aircraft attacks on two major US cities.

Several dozen Palestinian youths also gathered in Arab East Jerusalem to celebrate, honking out wedding tunes on their car horns after the attacks levelled the twin towers of the World Trade Centre in New York and struck the Pentagon in Washington. In Nablus, motorists honked their horns and gunmen fired into the air from assault rifles to cheer on the attacks, which unfolded in the space of a few hours and stunned people around the world.

'So happy'

Despite Palestinian President Yasser Arafat condemning the attacks, Palestinians, who have often burned US flags in protests during their 11-month-of uprising against Israeli occupation, celebrated in the streets of Arab East Jerusalem.

"I feel I am in a dream. I never believed that one day the United States would come to pay a price for its support to Israel," said a 24-year-old Palestinian gunman named Mustafa.

Another demonstrator said: "We are so happy that America was hit. America is against us in supporting Israel".


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM

Just horrific, how many casualties?
hard to believe the buildings came down like they did


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:05 PM

It is good to hear that Sinsull is ok, does anyone know if our other friends in the area are ok?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: MMario
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:05 PM

Thank god about Sinsull! Hope Larry can check in soon.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:06 PM

repost from other thread:
mobile networks can close their networks & restart in a mode which allows use by specified user groups only (eg doctors, govt officials, emergency services etc). Ordinary users would be unable to use the service. This sounds like what you mean by comandeered.
UK has closed airports til further notice, aircraft en route have been called back to UK, City square mile, canary wharf, Houses of Parliament etc are evacuating. Stock exchange closed early. There are rumours of the tubes being closed (unconfirmed).
All is very confused and worrying for all. Very worried for everyone everywhere.
There are reports of one or maybe two planes still unaccounted for - but these could be due to general confusion.
Kris


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:07 PM

Two United flights have now crashed, just reported from Seattle. Flight 175, a 767 Boston to LA, but they do not know where it has crashed. Four airline flights involved so far.

Sinsull heard, in NYC, that 8 aircraft are thought to be involved.

200 firefighters are unaccounted for at the WTCenters.

Even so, please, please, let's not invoke the thought of "war" just yet. Our thoughts and words can be very powerful.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

Things fall apart, the center cannot hold... I'm safe here in Germany, but I'm deeply shocked.

God protect you all.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

How about our DC friends too? A lot of the folk community are in government buildings.

Waiting prayerfully for news.
Linn


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

Nothing quite like this has ever happened in my lifetime.

Can't think.

My Army friend is in Colorado and I am not really concerned about him, but I am concerned about what this could possibly mean for our soldiers. Plus, he has family in Pennsylvania... I know his father travels in his work.

Maybe if I go back to sleep and wake up again it will all go away.

I just don't have anything pithy to say today.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:10 PM

The last time I was this scared was the day Kennedy was shot. The world is changed forever, starting today, and I can only wonder in terror what kind of world we have made for our children.

My irrational reaction has been to furiously dig into cleaning the house. Trying, I guess, to make one little enclave of neat, clean, sane existence. I cleaned the bathroom, cleaned the bedroom, started washing clothes. One thought was that maybe the power would go off all over the country, and we would at least have underwear to wear. And maybe, more than anything, the world needs people who are neat and clean and wear underwear.

All those people going to work in the World Trade Center, grumbling about another day at the office, and now buried beneath the devastation. All our most respected authorities holed up somewhere secret to try to figure out what to do. The Pentagon, the CIA, the UN, all the embassies, everyone important in the scheme of world events and national security is trying to figure out these world events and national security.

My son just called to say his first day of classes at college in Boston was called off. They evacuated the school and sent everyone home. I couldn't even speak for crying so hard, but I told him I loved him. My 20-year-old son who is one of the heirs of this crazy world we have somehow built.

Another irrational reaction was to think about the party I had just sent out invitations to. My e-mail said that we had anniversaries, birthdays, retirements, friendships and the glorious New England Fall to celebrate. My thought now is that we have nothing to celebrate, everything to mourn. My mind keeps dredging up song titles and lyrics that fit the horror that's unfolding. I'm clutching at fragments of known pain already memorialized in music to attempt to explain the unknown pain that is happening in my world. What have they done to my song, Ma?

I'm comforted by the fact that the mailman just delivered our mail, just like on a normal day. God help us.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:10 PM

I too saw the Palestinian coverage and Mick, you phrased it well.......Pearl Harbor I feel probably has nothing on this..........I hope we can remain as "surgical" as possible, but there is no doubt that this country will demand retribution for this. Once again, I hope all the other leading nations of this world can finally unite in stopping this type of warfare.......a war on innocents......everywhere.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:11 PM

Well - sort of puts the concerns about Flamers and Trolls in perspective. And I am not making light of this. I work on a military base and we are shut down tight. Having fought in one war I certainly am not looking forward to this - we are all praying for those involved and for our folks here as we will be part of the response team.

I hope all of the other Catters are OK - Steve


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:14 PM

kat..........war has already been invoked. How it will be prosecuted on our part is the only question. Pray in whatever way you do that, that it is done in the most efficient, and most directed way as possible. I find myself praying that President Bush listen to his advisors very carefully. I am so grateful at this moment that Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are in Senior positions. I also pray that Cheney is not given much voice.

Mick


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:16 PM

I don't know what to say, just that I am here and thinking of the people involved. JohnB`


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: bassen
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

SAS flights on their way to the US ordered to return to Scandinavia, further flights cancelled.

US, Israeli and other foreign embassies/offices in Oslo put under heavy guard. Norwegian foreign minister calls the attacks "an attack on democracy, an attack on us all".

A grim time ahead for us all, this will have ramifications far beyond any immediate retaliation. My rational mind wants to understand the Palestinian reaction, my heart and my gut rages Prayers to you all in this dark hour.

bassen


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM

Just heard on Sky live feed that America has sealed all its land borders.
Kris


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Kim C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:23 PM

Norton, what base are you at?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

I believe we have a real problem on our hands, militarily.

1. This is a coordinated and sophisticated logistical attack using non-military equipment.

2. In order to stage such an attack the perpetrators must have been operating from a safe haven. You can't launch this kind of coordination from an apartment in Algiers -- well you can, but this much coordination requires a government to cover up fgor you. In other words, a host nation sympathetic to your goals, or at least responsive to your bribes, sufficient to disguise your operations until they are implemented.

3. We do not know, in the ordinary terms of "nations and states" what group could be named as the target of our anger. Afghanistan? Palestine? Who, and where, is the enemy here? LEt here be no mistake that there is an "enemy", but I believe we are up against a "distributed enemy" and, as far as public knowledge extends, no idea what or where their centers of control and supply and communication are.

4. This implies to me a drawn out, distributed operation across a matrix of mixed participants and non-participants, an operation which is essentially a war but of a kind we have never fought before, even in Vietnam. It seems to me one of the inevitable consequences of these assumptions that we will see a large number of small tragedies attributable to wrong targets, misidentified foes, strikes going to wrong places. We learned a little about this in Vietnam where it was often hard to know who was friend and who was foe.

5. If this premise is correct, it means long, drawn out small-scale operations, high reliance on intelligence (which is not our strong suite), a strong need for rapid surgical deployment of force. We won't be moving battalions around. We'll be moving squads around, and possibly a large number of rapidly deployed individual agents or small teams. We have no experience thinking under these conditions and it will be riddled with stupid mistakes and learning experiences and wrongful deaths.

6. Because of the distributed nature of engagement and the fuzzy nature of the enemy we will see the worst wave of jingoism and mistrust this country has seen since Wilson's era or the anti-Nippon sentiments of the Second World War. A great deal of distrust and suspicion will be levied against the wrong peoples, such as Islamic refugees from Afghanistan and Yugoslavia who are trying desperately to build lives in peace. innocent cab drivers will be hauled out and attacked or killed if this scenario unrolls as predicted.

7. If it is the case that this attack was engendered by bin Laden or other fanatics, we face two really inestimable elements of risk. One is that this could lead to a massive world-scale conflict between Western forces and the massive population of Allah worshippers who make up a large and wide-spread portion of the world. In other words, a World War drawn not on political but on religous grounds. A second element is that we are facing (in this speculative scenario) fanatacism rooted in the belief that the sure path to Allah's garden is to die in his service. This kind of fanatacism makes military operations extremely difficult, and we have little or no experience in addressing it with other means, such as concentrated PR campaigns, psy ops and similar. Tokyo-Rose class approaches won't wash here. I tremble at the question of whether we have minds in command who are capable of addressing this kinbd of situation effectively.

Sorry for rambling on. Don't let me scare you -- remember, these are speculative efforts to analyze on insufficient data.

Stay brave, stay awake, stay rational, and be true to your heart.

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: LR Mole
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:27 PM

We must remain calm in our mourning and consoling. We are tough and loving people, and there will be need for us.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM

Our thoughts are with you. God Bless.

- Ian B


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM

The debris littering the streets of NYC along with the ash..........Papers that had been on the desks of people now probably dead. Important papers, "must do" and "Urgent"...........It all pales now doesn't it?

The many dead and injured, the families, the friends........all of us............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM

Niagara Falls and Fort Erie border crossings are still open at this moment, but the Windsor Detroit Tunnel is closed. Soon probably all border crossings will be closed.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:30 PM

I know what you mean, Barbara- the instinct to do something is very strong. Meanwhile I still have to teach a kindergarten class and pretend that everything is happy and fine, and then work in small groups of 4th graders on a project meant to protect, beautify, and map a lovely small park in our school neighborhood. But rather than feel despair for the futility of such things, I feel hope that we can strive to go on for the sake of the children.

Really, that's my mantra for anything I need to think about:
For the sake of the children...
For the sake of the children...
For the sake of the children...
For the sake of the children...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:33 PM

Your mantra, needed more than ever, is the right one, Anima. To bring out wisdom in young souls is the only hope for the long term future of the planet.

The tragic roots of this day's work are in the allegiance to falsehood, the perpetration of authoritarian beliefs and the suppression of natural critical intelligence. These are the real crimes of our time.

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM

Amos, I agree with you...but also I see internment camps.....


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:37 PM

My sister, too, Animaterra. I just got an email from her, she wishes they could go home, but in the meantime she carries on, teaching the little children music.

I understand, Mick, thank you. Unfortunately, I have no faith at all in the minds in our government, at the moment. I wish Clinton was still in the White House. I know it is good to face what may be reality, but I also feel we have a responsibility to try not to contribute to the negativity which is going to spread all over, much as Amos has mapped out.

I am concerned for my friend, here, who is a religious refugee from Iran; he has already suffered many physical and verbal attacks just for existing.

I am also concerned for my nephew-in-law who is in the Air Force.

I wish the Dalai Lama would make a statement. It is his voice I'd like to hear on this.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Dharmabum
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM

Of all the heartbreaking scenes I've witnessed this morning,the coverage of the Palestinian men,women & children,celebrating the loss of American lives,has struck me harder than the rest.

I pray I never attain such disregard for human life.

I truly hope those people represent only a small portion of the Palistinian population.

Ron.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM

Just reported (WBUR Boston) that all cars will be checked at NH/Canada border, but the border is open.

Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: nutty
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:40 PM

Almost speechless by the sights on the TV screen ......totally unbelievable ..... with worse to come when the smoke clears.
I just hope that all East Coast Mudcatters are safe and well


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:41 PM

Yes, we in England have just seen the celebrations in one sector of Jerusalem.

Sickening.

- Ian


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM

Still shaking my head...Just heard from my brother in Brooklyn via e-mail than his daughter Katie is OK, being evacuated from her school 3 blocks from the trade centers. Thousands and thousands must have been killed.

I hope the media plays down inflamatory video of anyone celebrating this terrorist attack, but I doubt it. Once again reality is far worse than our fiction.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM

I really cannot understand this, people are celebrating the deaths of other human beings.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

Checking in from Seattle. Airport closed down as are they all; they have evacuated the taller buildings downtown. Just a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. So many people! There were daycares in those World Trace Center buildlings; a co-worker of my wife's knew children in one of them; still no word on their whereabouts.

Prayers here for all the victims and their families.

Alex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Pseudolus
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

Hello All, it's been a while but with the events of the day, I kinda needed to stop in.

I've been reading the threads and I must say, as much as I agree with the thought "For the sake of the children", I can't help but picture those same children dancing in the streets celebrating the deaths of our own. The people responsible for this live in a world that few if any of us will ever be able to understand. To try to reflect our morals, opinions and beliefs on them is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. They don't have value for their own lives, it is naive to think they will have respect for any human life. I'm afraid they will only understand one thing, and that is force. I am angry and sad. I'm also glad that the decision is not mine, although I know what that decision would be.....

I pray for them all........ Frank


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM

The Toronto City Hall is being evacuated at the moment. There is a large plume of smoke coming from it's basement area. The City TV newscast is attempting to downplay this at the moment, so we don't know whether it's as serious as it appears visually, or simply a "garbage fire" (as they're speculating).

All downtown offices here are closed and there's a major traffic bottleneck as people try to get to the suburbs. Most Canadian businesses have ties to the New York offices, so that's the reason for the closings. Don't think there have been security threats.

Rick (from Scarborough Ontario Canada, five miles east of Toronto)

Our thoughts are with the folks in New York and Washington.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:49 PM

Horrible as it is, I feel we have brought this on ourselves: Our insensitivity to the fate of the Palestinians, our genocidal sanctions against Iraq both demonstrate to the Arab world that their lives and hopes mean nothing to us. Yes, the thousands who have died were innocents--as were the half million or so children of Iraq destroyed by the sanctions.

In our shame at our failure to save millions of European Jews at the hands of the Nazis, we went overboard in our support of the state of Israel, forgetting the millions of people dispossessed by the establishment and the continued expansion of that nation.

I believe that those guilty of these horrendous acts must be hunted down and punished, but to cry for the destruction of the desperate Palestinians in whose name and in sympathy for whose suffering the acts were perpetrated, even as they express joy at our suffering, is dreadfully wrong.

--seed, crying in the wilderness


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Wise observations, Kat. The point of prayers for the President is because he WILL direct the response. I don't have much faith, but I must have hope. I am afraid, as you are, that this attack will close the ears, minds, and hearts of those in power to what spawned the attack. But I do know this. We must respond and in a committed way.

Amos, I agree, almost 100%, with your analysis. And it doesn't bode well. We have very few units that can deal effectively with this. The few we do have, have been fractured pretty badly over the last number of years.

This was clearly a well thought out, well coordinated, and well financed attack. This is not a lone madman, or a small cell. The resources and time needed to surveil the security operations of the airports, the time needed to penetrate the airline operations and place the people who could board weapons for the commandeering........and on and on. When I factor in your scenario, with my own observations, I start to see a picture.

Mick


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

In England, we've just had pictures of Yasser Arafat talking to TV interviewers - apparently there are pictures of him being told the news, and he was described as clearly thunderstruck. - Ian


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: bet
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:58 PM

Unbeliveable! Must continue to hold classes like everything is fine. Hard witha heavy heart but my young students could not possibly understand the meaning. God protect us. bet


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:59 PM

I'm OK. So far all of my family is too.

People are everywhere with cell phones, some crying - they have family in the Towers.

I was on jury duty in Queens. We evacuated. There were some people screaming "Zionists!" Others were screaming "Arabs!" Hope the crazies can be kept under control.

So many are dead. The hospitals need blood - if you can, donate.

I had to remind my son that in two weeks, things will be "normal" to the extent that people will return to work, children to schools,...I wish I could cry. I would feel better.
Mary


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:59 PM

Seed, I have missed you. Well said. Drop me a line sometime at mlane@accn.org and let me know how you are doing.

Mick


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:02 PM

Guest - seed: You are scum.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

Two items from international news feeds-

AMMAN (AFX) - An anonymous caller claimed responsibility for the spate of attacks in the US on behalf of Japan's Red Army militant group to "avenge the dead of Hiroshima". "An anonymous caller speaking Arabic like a foreigner claimed responsibility for the attacks in a call to our newsapaper," the editor of the weekly Al-Wahdeh newspaper, Fakhri Kawar, told Agence France-Presse. "He said the attacks were carried out to avenge the dead of Hiroshima and Nagasaki," he said. Japan marked the 56th anniversary of the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima by the United States during World War II on August 6. More than 200,000 people were killed in that attack, while Nagasaki was likewise bombed on August 9, 1945. Kawar, a former deputy, said the caller gave no more details and hung up quickly. "We take this claim seriously," he said. About 20 Japanese companies have offices in New York's World Trade Center twin towers which were hit by two planes in the presumed attacks, Japan Broadcasting Corp reported.

and....

(AFX-Focus) 2001-09-11 17:28 GMT: Afghan Taliban denies bin Laden role in US attacks ISLAMABAD (AFX) - Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia denied that Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden had played any role in a series of apparent terrorist attacks in the US. The Taliban militia's ambassador to Pakistan, Abdul Salam Zaeef, condemned the attacks and said he hoped the perpetrators would be quickly brought to justice.

"Osama is only a person he does not have the facilities to carry out such activities," he told a news conference.

"We want to tell the American people that Afghanistan feels their pain. We hope that the terrorists are caught and brought to justice," he said.

- Ian B


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

My thoughts today are that the terrorists have won. We're scared. The country is grinding to a halt. And that's exactly what they want. Let's hope that in the aftermath that we don't throw away the constitution.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:08 PM

The local news claims that a plane is being tracked from Washington DC on a path to NYC. One is flying over my neighborhood now. Hope it is military. M.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM

The Taliban has communicated via their ambassador to Pakistan condemning the attacks and extending sympathy and condolence to all the children of America, saying "Afghanistan feels your pain".

This, in a way, makes it worse. If the Taliban, which has in the past supported bin Laden because of his help during the liberation of Afghanistan from the USSR, was behind the attacks we would at least have an enemy we could name!

This is going to get diffuse, ugly, difficult and confusing.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: O'Trasno
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:09 PM

A point well made GUEST...seed.Sadly,in the emotional aftermath of this horror few people will realize that this scenario has already been played out many times in cities around the world,often at the instigation of the US govt.

All our thoughts/prayers are with the citizens and friends and families,but we should also be thinking about how we got to this,and how to discourage mindless retaliation.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:11 PM

Usama Bin Laden's name is coming up repeatedly in this, and I'm sure he is at the very top of the list of suspects. He has in the past sheltered within the borders of various Islamic governments, secure from capture. Surely now there is NO safe haven on Earth for him. True, he is only a suspect in this, but he has been positively determined responsible for several other terrorist attacks. Now is the time to take all measures necessary, regardless of any other government, to arrest this man. Any government harboring him must be identified as an enemy of the United States. Any country who HAS harbored him must actively participate in the search for him, or be considered an enemy.

Pearl Harbor certainly comes to mind, but with terrific differences : Japan was the acknowledged source of the attack, and our anger could be focussed on them as the perpetrators. This horrible attack so far is of unknown origin, and frustration trumps the anger.

I dread to hear the numbers of victims involved. Thousands of people worked in the World Trade Center.

In the wake of this, the greatest damage may accrue : The loss of freedom and peace in the name of retribution.

I have no time for consideration of the reasons and sentiments behind this action. The perpetrators were motivated by unreasoning hate. They killed possible thousands of innocent people indiscriminately. Their motives deserve no examination. We should, however, act against them with reasoned but merciless retaliation.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM

Premier Barak of Israel has just said he thinks it's Bin Laden.

- ian


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM

I submit that the claim of Japanese nationalist effort behind the attack could easily be a red herring, an attempt to use our national psychic scars as a smokescreen. Ain't sayin' it is, but I don't honestly give much credence to this line of persuasion.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:15 PM

Casualties confirmed at State Dept.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM

No, he is NOT, Peter!

As to the Palestinians celebrating, don't think for a moment that Americans couldn't/wouldn't act the same, indeed may have, when we "stuck a blow" for democracy through actions during WWII and others. Remember the way we treated our own Americans of Japanese descent during those times? How did Americans react when they heard what we did in Hiroshima?

The human being is reduced to the basest of instincts when confronted with lives of unbelievable, unrelentless despair and loss. Those same base instincts can come to the forefront in a retaliation mode of the mighty. THAT is when all must keep calm heads and think through before reacting.

There also has been no confirmation of who is responsible, yet. Despite that, a friend, here, whom I consider to be fairly liberal and diverse, immediately called for all Arabic peoples in the US to be sent back. That kind of gut reaction is what will destroy our country, more than any outside force. It would serve the purposes of the extreme elements of our country to have such attacks blamed on those they revile the most.

Regardless, I am still in shock over the loss and destruction and condemn all who had a hand in it.

kat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Morticia
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM

My thoughts and prayers are with you all...those poor people,oh God, I am so horrified.I find it hard to grasp the enormity of this but suffice to say the repercussions will be felt around the world in the days and weeks to come.May the Gods be merciful on the innocent, of whatever nationality they might be.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,lynnoel@att.net
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM

I have posted an APB to my East Coast Chanteyfolk mailing list (45 recipients). So far Heather Wood has reported in safe in midtown Manhattan, and says David Kleiman is OK as well. There have been bomb threats in downtown Boston and all state and Federal office buildings are closed, but no confirmed attacks and no news of any Boston-area folkies involved (pray) in the downed planes. I'll post any more news from north of NY as it comes in; please keep me informed.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Mickey191
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

My prayers and tears for all the dead and dying. I said to someone, We must have vengence. Then as I read Amos'sevenpoints I realize my gut reaction was stupid. We must not react in a mindless way. We would be as low as those Palestinians who were rejoicing the devestation.We must find each and everyone responsible and bring them to justice. God help us.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Deda
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM

Like everyone here I am praying wordlessly (what words could possibly be enough?) for everyone involved. I think it behooves us to remember that the last time we saw a US government building blown up, everyone assumed it was an Arab terrorist and instead it turned out to be Timothy McVeigh, as American as he could be, but filled with hate. We don't know that the perpetrators are foreign. We may find ourselves at war not with Afghanistan, not with the Taliban, but with some compound(s) in Montana or Idaho. It is terrible indeed to think of people celebrating this awful series of events--but that doesn't mean we know, yet, who is behind this.

I have a 22-year-old son, and I wonder if we will live to see another draft, another generation of boys being sent off to be killed. May God have mercy on us all.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM

Another news feed from London -

(AFX-Focus) 2001-09-11 18:06 GMT: Bin Laden had warned of attack against US - report LONDON (AFX) - Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden warned three weeks ago of "a big attack" against the US, according to Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the London-based Al-Quds daily, citing "very good sources." He said the series of terrorist strikes in New York and Washington were "definitely the work of Islamic fundamentalism." "It is well-orchestrated and well-organized," the Atwan, told Agence France-Presse, adding that the attacks could be the work of a "consortium" of Islamic groups. Atwan, who is reputed to have good contacts with bin Laden's organisation, said: "Very good sources told me three weeks ago that he is planning for a big attack against American personnel and interests and maybe this is the outcome of it." Bin Laden is said to be based in Afghanistan, whose ruling Taliban militia said he cannot be accused of playing any role in the attacks - Ian


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,Sam Pirt
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM

I really am unable to say much, it is such a horiffic inccident. All of my thoughts are with all the innocent people who have been cought up in this tradgedy.

My thoughts are also for all the American catters paticularky those living in the hot spots.

Is there any word from Dan & Bonnie Milner, Joy Bennet or Bob Conroy?

Cheers, Sam


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

I totally agree with seed.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: PeteBoom
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

My step-daughter just called - she's in DC works walking distance to the Hill - she and her entire office has been sent home. She's got a couple of really scared 25 year olds from her office who can't get home because roads are blocked by security, etc.,

Amos - I agree with much of what you said, with this adendum. If it is identified that a nation-state is behind this, expect a new parking lot to be constructed where their capital stands now. Expect the same if it was a rogue independent hiding in another country. The way you beat terrorists is to out terror them. And damn the consequences and slap anyone who protests with the same brush.

The attacks today may have been done by Islamic militants, Seed. However, NOWHERE in the holy book does an action get the blessings of the prophet or Allah. Those who hijacked the planes are surely damned eternally, as are those who sent them.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

I work at a military base in Maine. We have been closed down. Only essential personnel to remain. Guards with loaded guns and Jersey Barriers securing the main gate. I am home and waiting to be called in.

I am so relieved that Mary is safe. Now where are the others? I have a message from Lynn Noel looking for news from her Chanteyfolk. I think some of them are 'Catters but some are not.

I feel no anger at our attackers. I am sad that they feel the need to take such measures. I cannot condone an attack on anyone as an answer to what has happened. I believe that there is more horror in the future. Lives will be lost but that will not bring back those who have died today nor will it rebuild the shattered lives that must go on from today.

I don't have an answer. Nobody does.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:23 PM

p.s Am I scum as well.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:24 PM

My local news is now reporting a number to call for info on casualties in NY...anybody know a number for the Pentagon? A very dear friend is there.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:26 PM

This is a terrible thing, whatever organisation was responsible. Its scale is of a different order from previous terrorist bombings - on a level not far below earthquakes, or carpet bombing carried out by the British and Americans in World Wat II.

But if it does turn out that this is a consequence of what has been happening in the Middle East, (and it is worth remembering that when Oklahoma happened everyone jumped to the wrong assumption), that does not mean that the ordinary people living there, people like us in all essentials, are any more responsible for what happened today than the people in small town America were responsible for what Timothy McVeigh and his colleagues did in Oklahoma.

People "celebrating" on streets in Palestine? I'm sure there were people "celebrating" on streets in our countries when they heard about Hiroshima. And they would be if Baghdad or Kabul were to be destroyed next week in some spectacular demonstration of American nemesis. Some people, not most peoiple.

The mindset responsible for what happened today, and for those "celebrations" is in no way peculiar to terrorists in the Middle East. It's a mindset that says "Now we are at war, we will do whatever we see as necessary, and we will have no regard for the people we kill. They are all the enemy."

And when people say things like "ragheads", "Allah worshippers", "make a crater of their country", that is precisely the mindset they are embracing.

God help us all. And God is the same God as Allah.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

Peter Midchuck, you have always been a good poster here and I will consider your post to be a product of the shock we are all feeling. But it exactly demonstrates what I am referring to. If I were in the position, I would pull the trigger on these bastards right now. But I also have been around the block enough to know that reactions such as yours will cause us to commit heinous acts in our righteous anger. And innocents will suffer. Children will suffer. To ignore the legitimate grievances of these people because of the actions of some body that acts on their behalf, condemns us to a horrible future. Remember..............this type of act has been carried out against others on a daily basis. No outrage......no Americans furious........but when it comes home to us.......different story. That is what I was referring to in my very first post when I prayed that we would pay attention to how we are perceived in the rest of the world.

Mick


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

Midchuck's name-calling is groundless -- BSeed is making a good point. There are millions of Palestinians who are not part or party to this attack. Some of them will die because of it. Using a wide brush to paint them all as enemies will be what causes this to happen. It will happen in the United States as well as in Palestine.

Insanity is contagious. Let us not spread the virus by "opening the attachments", so to speak.

Stay awake. Stay brave. Above all, stay rational.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Cappuccino
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM

Very good last sentence, McGrath.

- Ian B


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM

Remember, folks, we still don't know who did this.

So much for SDI. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM

Let's stay calm here as much as possible. The whole thing is so dreadfully shocking and unexpected...

and there's not really a damned thing we can do, except pull together and not go off on each other.

Amos, Mick, Kat...yea, even Catspaw. You are the voices of measure and wisdom in the U.S. right now.

Those in the affected areas...prayers from an atheist. Real sincere ones.

What happens next? Amos you have called the situation well, but I think there will be massive military action, presumably on Afghanistan.

All international flights into the US are now landing in Canada, if they don't return to their point of origin. No flights are taking off anywhere in Canada. There is one hell of a lineup of 747's that have pulled in at Gander Nfld!

I really don't feel like going to work on the 19th floor today. Guess I will though.

Bill


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Skeptic
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

The shock is receding a little but friends in NYC still not heard from.

A scary thought brought up over lunch; What if this isn't foreign but domestic terrorism?

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:32 PM

I have faith in the power of the American Government to determine who is responsible. I feel we will make no rash moves before that fact is determined. I also pray that our response once culpability is determined will be swift, accurate, and devastating.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:33 PM

Thoughtful stuff, Big Mick. And Amos, you're not rambling - far from it. I wish your words could be brought to an audience of millions, and I hope that all those who read this thread will take heed of them.

Especially "the sure path to Allah's garden is to die in his service." To my mind this makes the instant knee-jerk emphasis on "retribution" ring a bit hollow. And Spaw's childish faith in a quick and surgical reaction becomes so much impotent spluttering. Fact is, the people who did this are as indifferent about their own lives (some of them obviouslly killed themselves) as they are about anyone else's.

Like Kendall, I can't say I'm surprised at what's happened - only at the utterly phenomenal scale of the planning, resources and commitment that must have gone into it including, I guess, trained airline pilots among the terrorists. (Or did they drug aircrew into compliance?) It looks like at least one plane had a bomb on board as well as (presumably) guns, but security at US airports is about the most ineffective I've seen anywhere.

In the thread about National Missile Defence, where one or two catters dreamed about a USA cacooned from the world, I suggested a better policy would be for America to generate fewer enemies. I was sickened by the sight of today's celebrations in Palestine, but killing all those who cheered - were it possible, and bearing in mind that many were kids of ten or so - merely sends them to Allah sooner.

Obviously I'm all in favour of the right people being rooted out and brought to justice,if that can be done. I just don't think it will achieve much. My hope is that America - even an America with Bush at the helm - will begin to recognise that it cannot just wrap itself in a bullet-proof vest, but must start to give serious thought to the animosities it seems to attract from a large part of the world.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: selby
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:36 PM

Our thought's are with you words seem to say so little. I hope that at the end of all the rhetoric that's bound to happen. that the innocents will be given respect. Keith


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM

Thank you --seed. Our glas bubble of security here in the US has been burst. We now know that we are no less vulnerable than anyone else in the world. Can we learn some humility now? Can we put our values of respect for human life into practice even in the face of a challenge such as this one? Are we up to the test?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: vindelis
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

First heard about this at work, this afternoon. My thoughts are with you all.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

My thoughts and prayers go first to the victims and their families. They go next to all other Americans and New Yorkers in particular. I have experienced a terrorist attack of a very minor variety compared to this and the horror I felt then was appaling. When Manchester centre was bombed there were no deaths fortunately and very few injuries but it gave me a taste of what was like to live in that environment. The damage done has taken us years to rebuild. The shock still lingers. Be strong and understanding. You will rebuild both cities and friendships as we have. Don't let it get you down.

Love.

Dave


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM

I heard that Arabs in NY, mostly cab drivers, are being beaten up. That's just what the Arab news agencies would love to hear. What's worse is the thought that a lot of people with redneck mentalities are going to lump all dark-skinned Asians into one group, and just start beating them indiscriminately.

Police, Fire and Military personnel have their work cut out for them for the next few days. Try to cooperate with them when you find your lives disrupted. It's not their fault. Remember, this is probably war, or pretty close to it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM

My previous post comes from the perspective of a mother with a son who is of an age to be eligible for the draft.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM

How can anyone justify such an horrendous attack on innocent people?

My thoughts go out to all family and friends of the victims and indeed to all Americans on this terrible day.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Hawker
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

CONDEMNATION to the perpetrators

PEACE to the dead

COMFORT to the injured and dying

LOVE to All in America who really need it right now.

I cannot put into words how I feel, except to say that 'helpless' comes to mind, thinking and praying hard for you, us and the rest of the world.
Lucy


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

My thoughts and prayers for all the victims.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

Holy s**t! What a horrific piece of work. My heart goes out to the victims and its my hope that calm heads will prevail. I'm so sorry people, what a grotesque tragedy.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM

We are, de facto, at war. The fact that we don't know with whom doesn't make us any less at war.

To make apologies for whoever did it, and attempt to claim it's America's own fault, is to "give aid and comfort to the enemy."

The legal definition of treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war.

I don't think "scum" is an unreasonable term for traitors.

Assuming that this was done by Muslim extremists (and I'm the first to admit that we don't know that it was, no matter what evidence we have now) why did they attack us instead of Israel, who is whom they're essentially mad at? Because if they had, Israel would have taken massive military countermeasures already, by this time.

They knew us good Americans with our concern for fairness and due process would blither endlessly, and probably do nothing because we couldn't be absolutely sure whom to do it to.

I don't quite see how we get out of this without either pretty much shutting down the due process, freedom of expression, and privacy rights that we in this country all consider basic, or looking like such a helpless giant that we never get any respect internationally again. If anyone else has an idea how to avoid both, I'd like to hear it.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,guinnesschik and X-ed
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM

In know we've shared a very unpopular view today, but even so, I strongly urge all of you that are able to give blood. It is much needed, as the death toll, at last count, is in excess of 10,000.

Hawker, you've stated your piece most eloquently.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:08 PM

How can anyone justify such an horrendous attack on innocent people?

Amen to that. And pray that the response to it doesn't involve more horrendous attacks on innocent people.

Every atrocity is a reprisal, every reprisal involves another atrocity, and so it goes on for ever. And people say things like "The way you beat terrorists is to out terror them. And damn the consequences." People like todays suicide bombers.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,AliUK
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:09 PM

all flights to and from the US here in Brazil have been cancelled or recalled. The US Consulates are shut and the Bi-National centre I work at is thinking of beefing up security a bit. I'm frightened, these attacks were obviously coordinated by Bin Laden and his cohorts in the Taliban, who knows what they will do next. I think this was just a warning. I pray and hope that my fears about Bush are unfounded and he suprises us all. All the time I keep thinking of those poor bastards in the WTC and how they have died, my prayers go with them and their souls go straight to heaven. My thoughts go out to their families and loved ones who will now be forever marked by the actions of a group of madmen.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: SharonA
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:10 PM

Naemanson: What are Jersey barriers?

Pseudolus said, "As much as I agree with the thought 'For the sake of the children', I can't help but picture those same children dancing in the streets celebrating the deaths of our own." Please, let's not forget that children live what they learn. These children are dancing because the adults around them are dancing. I'm sure they don't understand what or why they are celebrating; all they know is that there's a party goin' on. Any rhetoric that they spout is simple parroting of what the adults are saying. The adults alone are responsible for what they say AND for what they are teaching their children to repeat.

I concur with those who advocate finding out who committed these atrocities FIRST before we speak of revenge on one nation or race or class. But when we DO know who did this, by all means they should be punished to the fullest extent possible.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:15 PM

Let's take it to another thread....

NEW THREAD HERE

Please use the new thread......Tragic day.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM

Another thing that I've got to say is this that when the IRA were killing people in Northern Ireland a lot of Americans were clebrating their deaths and even were making up songs about these murdring bastards, and yet when it happens to you I'veto feel sorry for you. Tell the people of Northern Ireland that you'll pray for them the 3,000 that were murdered by terrorist supporters in America ie: NORAID what about them. And yet America has over the years supported Israel in killing Palestines, and no one cared or prayed about them. I wonder how many Israelies have used wepons from America to kill children, men and women in palestine. I wonder how you feel now that you are targets for terrorists. However I don't support terrorists unlike some Americans do.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: lady penelope
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM

My prayers, my tears and also the joy of knowing of those who are fine. The main emotion I feel apart from great sadness is disgust. In London we've ahd major terrorist attacks, but never anything like this willfull distruction of human life.

But I beg those of you affected not to condemn muslims out of hand. A good muslim does not take the life of another and certainly not in the name of the creator. This is the work of fanatics and only fanatics, as any other terrorist action is taken by.

Blessed be.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:37 PM

There is little to say except that you are in my thoughts,I don't pray, but I do feel for you and your countrymen as you would feel for me and I hope all human beings. I watched with horror the unfolding events in the US today, it was just the same feeling, though I am many years older now as when kennedy was killed, an unbelievable surreal feeling.

But not a race, a religion nor a whole nation is responsible for this.I suspect that at sometime in our histories, countrymen of all nationalities have struck their blow for freedom, or in the name of their cause and killed innocents.( I had hoped that as we moved into the 21st Century we would be wiser, but alas not)and our people celebrated at the black acts.

I understand how you wish to destroy and hurt back at those who did this, and probably I would too, but among those who will be retaliated at there will be innocents, like the many killed today.

But that will not be the province of Mudcatters, except perhaps a few who have to work for the agencies involved, if that is so please keep safe.

A knee jerk reaction is probably the most dangerous of reflexes. Better to spend the immediate future caring for the injured and dying, helping those who have lost so much today.

Peace and sympathy

Eric


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM

We're all safe here, but could see the terrible smoke and dust across the bay, earlier. We're in deep shock. There are no songs for this, only tears.


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Subject: Boston report and Blood Drive
From: GUEST,lynnoel@att.net
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM

Heather reports that Joy Bennett is OK "but has many friends in WTC." Matt Bram also fine. Deb Cowan reports Evy Mayer checked in. No news yet from the Milners or other NY chanteyfolk; let me know if you hear anything.

Ivan Berger offers "if you, or anyone you know, is stuck on the Jersey side and can't get home, have them contact me and I'll try to put them up -- pick them up, if necessary." Ivan Berger Fanwood 908-889-5818 Cellphone 908-553-7477 (I will be out of the house a lot today, but reachable)

Boston local news confirms the Boston-based flights were United #175 (65 aboard) and American #11 (92 aboard). Logan is closed indefinitely, being evacuated and searched. Massport is holding its first news conference as I post, but no word yet on how the terrorists got on board. There were 220 planes departing/arriving Logan between 7 and 9 am (106 departures), and only these two unaccounted for. Both planes were 767s with relatively few passengers (2200 capacity).

Suggestion: there is a national blood shortage, and they're calling for volunteers tomorrow, not today. I will invite Boston-area musicians to go donate together, then ask at the hospital if we may sing for the other donors. If you're in Boston and want to join, contact me offline at lynnoel@att.net. Hope other cities may want to do something similar.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,Jerry Epstein
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 03:16 PM

Thanks for many messages and calls of concern. Clarice and I are fine. It is all impossible to describe, however.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: Big Phil
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM

So sorry to see the events unfolding on our American friends. May your God be with you all........Phil*


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: HelenJ
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM

Sorry - with 'Seed' in this.

HelenJ.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,alison kelley
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM

My friend Darren Bohan is missing. He was on the 102nd floor of I believe the South Tower. Darren is a regular at Fredy's Old Timey Jam in Brooklyn and lives in Queens. I don't know how to reach his family or other friends. Any info or news please call me 718-636-6341 or email alicat@nyct.net Please ask everyone you know!!!!!!!

Alison Kelley


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO
From: GUEST,suzie.leevickers Wiltshire, UK
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

Our hearts go out to you - the Television pictures have been horrifying enough - but in the aftermath don't let hatred and anger take over, if it does then THEY have won Love and Light
These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

This thread is closed. Please do not post any more messages in this thread. Additional messages will be deleted.


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Subject: Incredible resource for WTC missing/lost
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 07:17 PM

From Berkeley in California, comes this incredible compilation of everything which must be related to finding, listing, mourning, comforting all involved in last Tuesday's tragedy.

They have it set up to update every 60 seconds from some of the other sites, for which they have links. If you scroll down, the links they have are incredible.

Please click here. Even if you don't need the service, please take a moment to let them know what you think. They are looking for feedback and deserve it, imo.

I was sad to see Derran Bohan is still listed as one of the missing.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Incredible resource for WTC missing/lost
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:12 PM

Great website...I was confused when this first happened that they were putting out phone numbers instead of web sites. Do we have something in place for various tragedies and waves of refugees in the world? I thought during Bosnia we needed this. It would help reunite so many people. I sort of assumed it was done by Red Cross or some agency like UN, but maybe not. mg


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Subject: RE: Incredible resource for WTC missing/lost
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:44 PM

Good question, mary. This website was started by one college student with help from a couple of frineds. They ahve now added anothe compilation of links to sites with Opnions & Comments having to do with peace, as I'd suggested a list of links to all of the peace website would be good, too.

Thanks,

kat


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