Religious fanatics -- out

Subject: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:33 PM

Out of our airplane cockpits.

Out of their lairs in America, where they are shielded by our constitution.

Out of our Congress

Out of our courts.

Out of our state legislatures.

No more "God is great." while murdering thousands of innocent people.

No more posting of the Ten Commandments on the walls of government buildings, where people of every faith, or no faith, expect to find impartial justice.

No more detention of humanitarian workers by courts claiming the Koran as their authority.

Take your religious fundamentalism -- or fanatacism -- back to its rightful place and get them OUT of government.

No more.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:35 PM

Hear, hear, hear, hear!!!

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: flattop
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:40 PM

H.L.Menken said that sin should be left to the congenially sinful.

Some bastards take all the fun out of it.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM

As far as I know, you don't have to be Jewish or Christian to follow the 10 Commandments. They're basically plain human common sense.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM

Sounds like a tempting idea, Armen, but how do we drive the fanatics out, and where do we drive them to? What happens if somebody labels us fanatical? I don't know if I'd want to accept the consequences of ridding the world of fanatics.
Now, if you want to enact and enforce laws that control fanatical behavior that affects the rest of us, that's another matter....
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Midchuck
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:45 PM

What Joe O. said.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 10:59 PM

Thanks, Joe, might thoughts exactly, where are we to drive them to? We already have too many of them in the Northwest.:-) Personally, I'd like to see the Dalai Lama take over the world, but then it is against his nature and Buddhism, so...may we all strive for balance in all ways.

kat

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST,GUEST Just a nobody
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:00 PM

Before anyone thinks we should just drive someone out for thier beliefs, you need to ask yourself 'what makes a fanatic?'

McVay (sp) Was not a religious nut, but we all know what he did. So how do we lable him? Some say a anti-Government, others say he was the ultimate patriot. How would you define him. Careful how you answer, remember fanatic is all perspective. You say fanatic anti-government, will we begin to include those that support pollitically incorrect thought? You point fingers at religion? I have seen more people call out the 'religious fanatics' What about the fanatic Athiest. One who refuses to accept that others do not believe the same as they do. Should we throw them out as well? Do not blame someones faith, or race, or sex. There are 'Fanatics' of all kinds. Some of these 'religious fanatics' believe so much in thier faith, they sacrifice what they have to help those less fortunate. They sacrifice their freedoms so others can have some freedom. I have seen, on more than one occasion, people on Mudcat engaging in debate about the IRA. Some people claim they are hero's or that they fight for a just cause. Remember that word Fanatic? Apply it there as well. In this time it is really too easy to let anger and passion get the best of us. Just think though before you say get rid of this group, or that group. You may find yourself in one of those groups.

Just some rambling thoughts.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM

All day I've been feeling like I should go to a mosque to pray. I haven't done it yet, but if I still feel this way tomorrow, I probably will do it.

I have a feeling that peaceloving American Muslims probably could use a little sense of solidarity from the rest of us right about now.

Liland
Baptist

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:11 PM

Who said anything about driving anybody anyplace? People of very strong religious convictions are free to go wherever they want. They're free to approach me on the street and warn me I'm going to eternal damnation. They're free to speak openly anywhere they want. I just want religion out of government -- a government whose founders chose to make the very first words of amendment to our Constitution a bar against religion in government. We have a remedy, and the people of Florida took it when the overwhelmingly rejected as their senator a man who said he made every decision for his constituency by first praying about it. I do not want a government of "God told me to" in these United States, or anywhere else.

And if our guest sees nothing wrong with posting the Ten Commandments in a court of law, then he/she would have no objection to sitting before a Taliban judge as he pointed to the Koran and said, "you will be tried by what's in here."

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:24 PM

You really.. I mean REALLY need to think about the founding fathers and what the constitution states my friend. Think how many references there are to God... and Creator. This is not a true sectarian document. The seperation of church and state applies to the State Mandated religion, as was the case in England.

I love it when people talk about seperation of church and state. Do you relize that the 10 Commandments have been on federal buildings for a very long time.. It is not like someone got a wild hair up thier butt and thought they would look good up there.

The idea of seperation of church and state... It means that you do not have to be of a certain faith. You can be in politics without having to be Baptist, Catholic, Muslim or whatever other religion. It means all faiths... ALL FAITHS have equal rights here. Now you say 'Then why not hang something other than the 10 commandments?'

Tradition... pure and simple... this nation was founded by people that believed in those things that you now find so distasteful... Odd isn't it? We should say that we need to return to our roots, to what the fore fathers would have us... Take another look. I'm all for freedom of religion, I don't want the government telling me, or anyone what faith they should be.. And unless I am greatly mistaken, I don't believe they have mandated any faith over another. Sounds to me like you just have an axe to grind. I suppose you are right... lets have the government mandate Atheism. Of course, that to is only built on faith.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:29 PM

Religion and religious goverments have killed more people in the name of God than any one has in support of a political philosophy.

I want God in my life and religion as far away from me as is possible. If God is truly the great inventor then humanity must be his greatest invention. And religion must be humanity's worst.

I am afraid that this will be a war we can't win.

Don

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:30 PM

Yeah, Don.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM

We STILL don't know even who it was, let alone if it was religious fanatics.......shall we curb our tongues???

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST,Give me that old time religion
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

Religion is not a bad thing, people use it to make it that way. Guns are not evil, the people that use them to commit crimes are. Governments are not evil, it is how they treat those they govern (ie the leaders) That make them that way.

Sad, we blame guns, we blame religion, we blame books, we blame music, movies, tv, the government. We never place the blame where it belongs. On ourselves, on man. Maybe because then we would have to do something about it.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM

Curious Armen, I am sitting here with a copy of the constitution in my lap... I don't see anything prohibiting religion from government. In Article 3 it covers the freedom of religion, speech, press, and assembly. The part regarding religion,

"Article of the third.... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religeon, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Hmmmm.. don't see anything there about the absense of it, only that the government will not establish a religion.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST,just a nobody... yet again...
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

Because I do like a good debate, Armen, I would like you to go over your argument about our constitution placing a "bar against religion in government".

I take it then, by that standard, all of our elected officials should be Atheist, or at the very least Agnostic. This would be the case to make sure someones religious 'fanaticism' didn't influence them. Would'nt that baring violate the constitution by allowing a prohibitation against religion?

Just a thought.

The only reason I am really watching this thread is because I tend to observe silently. I suppose in light of all that has happened today, I don't want to be silent anylonger. Your post waving a flawed reference to our Constitution only stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Your intolerance to peoples 'fanatical beliefs' made you seem somewhat fanatical yourself. Like I said before, don't blame the religion, don't blame the book, don't blame the movie. Blame the man that commited the evil. Blame the ones that act on the impulse of evil. Religion has helped many people cope through things in thier lives. Personally I think that is a good thing. But if a man reads a Bilbe, Tora, Koran, Winnie the Pooh and uses it to justify commiting horrible crimes. It is the man, not the religion to blame.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM

Well, golly-wollies, you got it word for word, no matter what the actual Amendment number is. So the Founders wouldn't have minded a bit if congressmen were voting based on "God's law", rather than common law -- as long as they didn't actually set up a state religion, is that it? ("God's law" is of course the authority cited by most white supremacists...but I digress.) Hey, ya know what? The Founders have all been dead for 200 years, so whatever their actual intentions were, what we are left with is a miraculously living document that generations of courts have interpreted to include an incredibly astute bar against religion taking the front seat in governance. But, hey, another Supreme Court appointment or two, and we'll have junk science in the classroom and the cops in the doctor's office.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM

I know-- let's drive the anti-religious fanatics out too, they can all go to the same sorry place where the religious fanatics have been sent (be sure to use the same test for both now), and they can just duke it the F*** OUT, and then we can quit duking it out HERE.

We can quit duking it out HERE.

~S~

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: John P
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:48 AM

Having the Ten Commandments on a courthouse wall looks to me like the establishment of religion. I don't think we should drive anyone out of anywhere unless they exhibit behavior that warrants it. I think it is stupid to vote for religious fanatics for any office. And I think that elected officials that quote the Bible or any other religion as the source of their decisions should face ethics sanctions. It is very easy for non-Christians -- or perhaps I should say the non-religious -- living in the United States to feel discriminated against by lots of laws on the local, state, and federal level.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:32 AM

I expected better Armen. I do not presume to know the mindset of the founding fathers. But by the way you present your argument, I must say you have a major axe to grind.

Would they pass something as "God's Law?" No. It would mean that the government is sanctioning one religion above another. That act is what that article is about. How odd, you brought up the constitution in your argument against what you called 'fanatics', but you cannot defend what you have said. I am not really sure how the issue of White Supremist came up, but I do see that your use of such an inflamitory comment is there to only cloud the issue. Your statement is designed to make people think any one that believes that there is "God's Law" is a Racist. Nice try, but it falls far short of the mark. If you wish to continue to blame religion for the atrocities of the world, then nothing gets solved.

Again, don't blame faith, sex, race, or whatever else. The faults of man rest fully on MAN. A man uses the Koran to commit atrocities, A man uses the Bible to commit atrocities. A man uses a gun, a knife, his friends, his power, even others misfortunes to commit evil. Put the blame where it belongs, on the individual. Or is it, if we do that, then we loose our own scapegoats. We loose our defence for doing things we know are not right. It is far easier to look at a faith you don't agree with and say that is why something is the way it is, rather than look at the man. Maybe we don't want to do that, because then we would be sore charged to look at our own shortcomings and have to look at what is truely to blame. It would not be society, education, books, movies, parents, or faith that is the cause, but ourselves.

I have no intention of debating the validity of faith, I have stated no such desire. But in light of all that has happened in the las 24 hours, I find that people that blame religion and fanatics on what has happened, disturbing at best. There are very good people that could be affected by what has happened. Because they will be labled as 'Fanatic.' Armen, will you be the one to stand up and defend them? Or are they Fanatics that should be shipped away?

By the way, what defines a fanatic Armen? Someone willing to die for faith? Would that mean that a patriot for this country could also be a fanatic? A person that attacks faith is as equally a fanatic.

I engaged this debate only because thoughtless words denouncing peoples faith, denounces a group of people. Funny how you would wave around the constitution that protects the freedom of people, to say that religion has no place. Just as those White Supremists you refered to, only read what you want and loosly translate the rest to fit what you desire. I do not intend on 'Duking out' with anyone here. I only hope that you understand that blindly lashing out at religion, no matter what the faith, is not what we need. And is not the message that needs to be spread. When I say faith, I truely do believe that not believing in a "Religion" involves just as much faith.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: CharlieA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:41 AM

Ok, just to clarify, I am a pagan. however - on a building of law having a set of guidelines on how to live your life may be a reasonable idea. spesh thiose that say "thow shalt not kill" maybe im just not getting the idea. Cxxx

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:03 AM

John P... well said, and I understand what you mean. Notice that nowhere have I stated my religion, or lack of religion, it is irrelavent to this discussion. But, I would like to point out that I have yet to see a judge condemn a man for 'worshipping a false idol.'

I do not find the 10 commandments hanging in the halls of justice as something that is ominoous. It is not until a judge, decides that he should sentence a man for being pagan. But then, as I have repeated, Is it the Commandments, or is it the judge to blame? Have faith in your fellow man to do what is right. Then condemn those that don't. Don't look at the 10 Commandments as the flaw in our system. They have little to do with it. But, there are many laws that are reflected in those 10 Commandments. Killing, theft, and adultery spring to mind. Others may not be laws, and that is good, because they are religious in nature. But again, I don't know of any case where a man was convicted of 'worshipping false idols.'

This is not meant to put down your own feelings John, but to give you another perspective. I support your belief that they can be discouraging, but remember they are not 'Laws' as we know them today.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: John P
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:10 AM

CharlieA, have you read the Ten Commandments lately? It's not just a set of guidelines about how to live your life. If they want to post numbers six, eight, and nine, fine. The rest are not appropriate to a government building, especially a court house.


1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other god before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image . . .

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy.

5. Honor your father and your mother.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thow shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, wife, manservant, maidservant, ox, ass, or anything that is thy neighbor's.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:13 AM

To the extent that 7 involves a breach of a formal contractual committment, I'd say it would be all right to post that one also.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:16 AM

I'm with Armen. Out, out, out. Way out, out, out. I wouldn't even post 6, 8 & 9, we already have a penal code.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:31 AM

Laws, yes! Joe Offer mentioned "enact[ing] and enforc[ing] laws that control fanatical behavior that affects the rest of us" and I think that's exactly what we should do... with emphasis on ENFORCING those laws, including the laws we already have.

Subject: RE: Religious fanatics -- out
From: wildlone
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM

I have a copy of the Koran, Given to me by a friend who is a muslim. I have found no passage in it that says "go and murder".
It is the same in the New Testament.
When fanatics cannot find a message in whatever holy book they use they will create one.
I have been interested in the sects that sprung up in England in the middle part of the 17th cent, Most of them could find a mention in the Bible that they could elaborate to justify their behavior.
dave