Binladdin Must Die

Subject: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:16 PM

Every one Knows He is behind it. If He survives welcome to the Vulgur, Voilent new World. I am Not Being Vengeful, Just Rational, Peace requires his death, Peace is more important than he is, just as his victims have always been. After Todays attack The world is not the same , We must take it back.
No Kind Calming Words please. I am interested in calm and peace, That Is Why I Said What I said.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:21 PM

You drunk?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM

Naw, he ain't drunk! He is a rational human!

khandu!!!

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM

And here we have a classic case of not understanding the mindset. Killing him makes him a martyr and would increase the violence......oh forget it. I'm tired ...

Spaw

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM

Anyone Who thinks he should be allowed to hide and survive is a fool who puts appearing as a Humane individual ahead of acctually being one. This worst terrorist attack in the history of the world is the first of many if fear is allowed to reign. Binladdin alive = Fear.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM

DJH, at one time "everyone" knew that if you left a piece of spoiled cheese sitting out, it would turn into a dead rat.
They also "knew" that the earth was flat.
Columbus' voyage and the discovery of bacteria changed what everyone "knew."
Bin Laden may well be guilty. But we are a nation of laws and the law MUST be respected.
Catch him, try him, and, IF we find him guilty, THEN castrate him with a dull butter knife and watch as he bleeds to death.

troll

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

Prove it, please. I am waiting for solid proof.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:36 PM

>>>we are a nation of laws and the law MUST be respected. Catch him, try him, and, IF we find him guilty, THEN castrate him with a dull butter knife and watch as he bleeds to death<<<<

Umm, that's against the law.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:36 PM

If Osama Bin Laddin is responsible he must be brought before an Islamic court and tried and convicted for bringing about the suicides of countless followers. Suicide is a crime in the Koran and under Islamic law the Mullahs and Ayatollahs would have to find him guilty. And I hope be excecuted by the faithful. This would limit his martyrdom.

Just rambling conjecture.

Don

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

Exactly, Sorcha.

Do we blindly launch assault after assault against "probable" targets until we decide enough blood has been shed?

We claim to be a nation of laws. We claim to believe in freedom and the rights of mankind. To deprive other nation's citizens of these rights without proof is a travesty on the level of the attacks on New York.

In a rational world, we would present grievances to the UN over the attack, and immediately set about using all our efforts to determine who the attacker is. Then, present THAT to the UN and request the turn over of the attacker, should it be necessary. Armed intervention without international consent would be just as much an act of war as it would be if the Taliban were to invade the US to capture 'heretics'.

Anything less is a return to 'eye for an eye' brutality. While tempting, it's also part of what has given the US the reputation of bullying that we've managed to acquire.

M

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM

As To the idea that he deserves a trail , of course, I am not an ignorant barbarian, I want him Tried and found guilty of one of the most attrocious acts in human history. Dresden and Hiroshima don't compare , There were declarations of war. Catching him is of the first and utmost importance.
As To The Idea that we are not sure that he was behind it, one of his right hand men is/was due to be sentenced for an embassy bombing on 9/12 and three weeks ago he stated that The BIG attack on the united states was coming three weeks hence.
I am whole heartedly against anymore innocent life being lost, anywhere in the world, That is the only part I see as a difficulty. We need to get the UN to put a strangle hold on the whole mid east until the coward is surrendered. And Then for the first time I am Pro Death Penalty in the name of peace.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:50 PM

Again, prove it.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:02 AM

Okay....Let me try it again.......One more and last time.......

IF it is an attack by the Islamic Jihad, then we need to do what Don suggested. But we also need to get an understanding of the mindset that we are dealing with and that they BELIEVE not in suicide, but in giving their lives for the cause and in fact it will gain them instant admission to heaven. This isn't an easy thing for us to understand is it? We have to have a consortium of all goverments willing to stop terrorism of any kind and that those who harbor them are as guilty as the ones who commit the crime.

Then, sadly, I take a reality check and I find people coming out of prayer services saying they prayed for the people involved and for "Revenge." I think of the recent history of how the country has acted and I KNOW that if we can convince the citizens and the government at least NOT to bomb the living shit out of whomever we THINK MIGHT have done it, it will be a victory. It's not what I'd like and I hope that we can do better, but to do so, we need to see what actually will work and to do that we need to get inside the mind of the terrorist.

It's going to get bad......How bad is to some degree up to us and the messages we send to the leadership. Right now, I'm not real encouraged..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:29 AM

Spaw, What message are we sending if binLadden is committing terrorist act # ?, 2 Years from now? I am not for carpet bombing anyone , But this incident can't end without him being brought to justice. It Just Can't.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM

DJH - you're missing part of the point, I think.

What if Osama BinLaden had nothing to do with this attack? What if the attack was brought about by another Timothy McVeigh? Or some other nation's lunatic fringe?

In that case, attacking him or any of his facilities would be the WORST possible thing we could do. Not only would it very likely increase the future terrorist activities against the US, it would also give anyone with a chip on their shoulder a bit more credibility against the US.

I understand that you've been affected by this - if I remember correctly, you live in the area. But also, understand that though this act enflamed the passions and desires for vengeance, to give into those would merely pave the way for more death in a very immediate way.

M

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:36 AM

DJH....When did I say he shouldn't be brought to justice?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:48 AM

The perfect timing of the incident, all the planes were hijacked within five minutes of each other, all the planes were full of an explosive quantity of 'going all the way out to the west coast' fuel, and the success in accomplishing this without FBI interference, all Point to an elite terrorist org. not your average car bomb.
I was also very glad to know we didn't bomb afganistan. I don't want Afganies experiencing round 2 of this evil. But, If he gets away with it round 3, 4, 5, 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , ..... are coming.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

Again - people thought the same of the Oklahoma bombing right after that happened, and that turned out to be a homegrown American psychopath.

At this point, given that it's been more than twelve hours since the attack and we haven't summarily started wiping locales off the map, I'm hoping that there are enough people with restraint to wait for concrete evidence rather than the circumstantial evidence that is available to the public. Unfortunately, the US has more than just one 'foe'. It's entirely possible that one of them is responsible.

As to additional 'rounds' if BinLaden isn't snuffed - do you think that summarily dispatching him won't inspire countless others to emulate his actions? I stand by my assertion that any 'removal' of person or persons needs to be an international act. While it'll still get blamed on the US and Israel regardless, it'll also make legitimate nations leery of supporting this kind of activity - moreso if a conviction also results in economic sanctions against the sheltering nation.

But NOTHING should be done as far as 'punishment' or 'retribution' until we know beyond a shadow of a doubt (that being our requirement for conviction) precisely who is responsible. This will take time to gather the needed evidence, and time for a trial to establish absolute culpability.

M

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM

Whoa! Don says, "If Osma Bin Laden is responsible he must be brought before an Islamic court?" And you, Spaw, agree?

Whassamatta you folks? If he is responsible, he should be brought before a court in the United States (if he survives capture)! What the hell has an Islamic court got to do with his masterminding a crime committed in the United States?

'Splain, please!

DougR

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM

DJH, you really don't need to be a member of an elite terrorist org. to syncronize watches or read an airline schedule. A 12 year old could do it. And the FBI isn't all-seeing or all-knowing. Don't broadcast your plans, and they're unlikely to know about them. This could be ANYONE. People in general are pretty stupid, but give them SOME credit.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 AM

"People in general are pretty stupid?"

Lepus, sometimes you astound me. That's a pretty "general" statement, isn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM

I Have never agreed with Doug R before , Quite Frankly , it frightens me , but, If consequence does not enter into the picture the WORLD is a lost cause.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM

DougR, I think the point they're making is that if he were offed by the US, (Military or courts) some people would regard him as a hero & martyr, killed by "the enemy" and might seek to emulate him.
If however, he were executed under Islammic law for the murder of innocents, it would portray his activities in a very different light to young Palastininans etc.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:16 AM

Doug: Huh? Not really. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:16 AM

Besides, who has time for bombing the crap out of anyone at the moment?

We could be standing at the brink of World War III if retaliation is taken against anyone. We may even be teetering on the edge now because sure as eggs is eggs, the Western world is not going to take this lying down.

But as the UK has just discovered, it can take a very long time for justice to be served, and any one of a thousand little incidents can prevent it ever happening. The Lockerbie bomber may have been traced earlier, or it may never have happened at all if a security alert had been called when the padlock to the baggage store was found forced. The security guard reported it, and it was ignored. But regardless of that, the bomber was sheltered and harboured. As long as there are people willing to 'lay down their lives in the fight for justice >as they see it<', there will be acts of terrorism. And as long as there are people out there who would punish the prime suspect before any proof is found, there will be the threat of an all out military action, with the deadliest of consequences. And as long as there are people out there who insist on posting seditious comments and purile remarks, there will be the seeds of war.

LTS

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

That does bring up a point - what would happen if this were found to have been a four person conspiracy? What if every member of it died when the plane they hijacked hit?

Evidence is needed. Any action or planning taken with the lack of proof is foolish at best, terminally dangerous at worst.

And as to the 'court' that this is taken to - that will have to be determined by the source of the attack. If (conjecture here) the attack were perpetrated by Libya with the full participation of Khadaffi, then it would be correct to try him in the full UN council for committing a wanton act of war. If it were a foreign national acting in capacity of terrorist, then it's up to the US and the rest of the international community to reach a decision acceptable to all nations involved.

Realize also that there's a very real chance that the perpetrators (if they still live and survive to stand trial) will not be tried in an American court. MANY nations, allies and otherwise, have of recent years declined extradition requests due to the likelihood of a death penalty sentence being sought. It may turn out that the best possible solution will end up being an international tribunal or similar apparatus.

Again, this IS all speculation. International affairs are notoriously inconsistent, and anything may change with little notice.

M

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:28 AM

Wasn't it [getting back to music---] Tommy Sands who had a line something like--"an eye for an eye--till everyone is blind"?

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

I have heard a news report that apparently several passengers on different planes made phone calls before the planes went down, with a lot of detailed description of the situation and the hijackers. This will give the FBI and whoever else something to start an investigation with. I think we need to await developments before possibly retaliating against the wrong person, group or country. I am not really up for World War III.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:47 AM

I am and have always been with Melanie "I aint Really up for WW III". But , when the Truth bares out that he is responsible , What would be appropriate? He has to Die. If he lives , the human race will extinct itself. The destructive power of the 'disatisfied' (Monsters) will have found a captive audience in the form of the global community.
On a side bar , who doesn't think the Palestinians signed their death warrant by dancing in the streets? I felt they were the victims , until today , now I gotta say I care a little less. Watch if a complete lack of sympathy isnt a brutal, wrong, downfall of this bellegered people.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:52 AM

As somebody on Tuesday's news said, "When Pearl Harbor was bombed, the attackers left their return address. Today's attackers didn't."

So far, it's all speculation. There are several perfectly reasonable scenarios and probably a whole bunch of possible ones (maybe even including the real one) that no one has even thought of. A popular vote would undoubtedly come up with Osama bin Laden. That would be my vote. But Truth is not determined by popular vote.

A very good movie from the Forties comes to mind: "The Ox Bow Incident." It's about a lynching. Anybody seen it?

Before we decide who needs to be offed, let's wait till we know something.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:58 AM

"The Palestinians" weren't dancing in the streets, DJH. SOME Palestinians were dancing in the streets. I do agree that those images will hurt the Palestinian cause in the US, however, which is unfortunate. I know many people who were really starting to understand and sympathize with the Palestinians, but who, like you, have now changed their minds.

But remember, we hope that other nations won't judge OUR country on the actions of, say, the Klan. It would be unfair of us to judge other nations in that way, don't you think?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:01 AM

Exactly, Don.

At such time that the perpetrators have been identified and convicted, then it becomes an issue of the punishment. Note that there very well may NOT be capital punishment in this matter... regardless of your personal beliefs regarding the death penalty, it IS a matter that several of the member nations of the UN frown upon, and have in the past refused to turn over a suspect unless the US would guarantee that the death penalty would not be sought.

Regardless of WHO is responsible, it's still a matter that will hopefully be handled with great delicacy. A delicate hand might be able to acheive some good out of the sacrifice of the unknown thousands who died, whereas a clumsy slash of the executioner's axe may cause exponentially greater losses later.

I understand that this close to the actual destruction it's difficult to be objective. The first reaction of many people is to find and kill the perpetrators as quickly as possible, preferably as messily as possible. In this case, it'd be giving immortality to a person and cause (regardless of who is responsible) that they'd never have achieved had rational thought prevailed.

Let the responsible rot in prison. Let them and their followers see that while we won't suffer the monstrous to walk the earth without retribution, we also will refuse to take from them - regardless of provocation - what they so wantonly took from so many others.

M

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:18 AM

Ethnic hatred is a real risk and clearly undesirable. We can't be arguing about that. (Any statements in that vein will be retracted when emotions clear.) Another good movie that comes to mind is A Bad Day in Black Rock (Spencer Tracy.)

Does anyone think that anyone should be punished for being a suspect, or are you all ranting at shadows?

Those of you that would forsake all violence even in the face of extreme violence are on a higher plane (I mean that in all sincerity.) But you can't help in the immediate decisionmaking required in this uncivil world. Politics is a practical business.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:23 AM

The UN?
Someone commits an act of war on OUR nation and we must ask the UN if it's ok to go after them?
This is not the business of the international community, the UN, or anyone but the American people. Our country was attacked and it is our right to seek out and punish those responsible.
OUR right; NOT the UN.

troll

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:21 AM

More than likely it was Bin Laden who masterminded this. However, let's be sure before we expand the war by vaporizing an innocent country. When I was a boy during WW2, we had a bakery run by a man named Derksen. Some of the locals boycotted him because he sounded "German" He was actually of Norwiegen descent. This is ignorance in action.

When I was a fisheries Warden for the state of Maine, there were many cases of misplaced "justice". Lobsterman A and lobsterman B had no use for each other, so, they engaged in destroying the other guys traps. All this time, lobsterman C who hated both of them stood back, kept his mouth shut, destroyed the traps of BOTH A and B and smiled as they tore each other to pieces.

As Goethe' said, "There is nothing as scary as ignorance in action"

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:35 AM

I posted this elsewhere, but I thought I'd copy it here and see if it makes sense to anyone.

I know this is the hardest possible time to think about these things, but maybe it is also the best possible time. I saw pictures of Palestinians celebrating in the streets and it sickened me.

And then I thought of something. What if things had been different? What if a civilian target in, for example, Iraq had been hit by terrorists causing devestation on a similar scale? Though most of us would not be rejoicing in the streets, how many of us would be (privately or publically) saying that it was a good thing, that Iraq had it coming etc.... One of the main points in the media has been that if it was Bin Laden, then targets in Afghanistan should be justifiably hit if they are sheltering them. In the alternate scenario, I find it hard to imagine that any terrorist group aimed at Iraq or other "rogue" Arab states would not be backed in some way by the American (and other western) government. Would then retaliatory strikes be justified against the US?

In my view, the dictum that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has prevailed for too long in the west. We have propped up corrupt violent dictatorships in other countries in the past because it suited our political ends (quite often in the past support was given to anyone in the past who kept out communist governments, no matter how horrendous their means).

It's a hard thing to think about, but maybe that means we should be thinking about it.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: nutty
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:59 AM

I may get shot down for expressing these opinions but I think that the terrorists are being credited with far more thought and planning than actually was the case >>>>>>
I think that it was just pure luck on the part of the terrorists that they pulled off such a feat . I don't believe they ever expected too ......... that , IMO ,is why there were two plane attacks on Manhattan ... one would have made just as much impact

Imagine this scenario
Terrorists identify 3 targets that would equally strike fear in the people of the United States if any one of them were attacked
1) The World Trade Building ...... A damaged and unstable 110 storey skyscraper would cripple the centre of Manhattan for months (I do not believe that it/they were ever expected to collapse)
2) The Pentagon ..... a strike at the heart of US Military might would again show how vulnerable America was.(I believe this went as planned)
3) Camp David .... an attack here would again show US vulnerability

Four planes were hijacked because the terrorists did not expect to be so successful ....hence the two attacks in Manhatten
The Camp David attack failed either because the terrorists failed to control the plane or the air crew did not allow the hijack to happen

Bin Ladden followers MAY have been responsible but there were many other groups who hated the US enough to also have hatched such a plan ..... BUT .....as I said before ..... I do not believe that slaughter on this scale was ever envisaged.

IMO,the only positive aspect of the day was that a group of fanatics killed themselves

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:03 AM

Unconfirmed, admittedly: but the BBC reports that the Taleban have offered to extradite Osama bin Laden.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:08 AM

In the reality of law this was not an act of war altho' I don't know what else to call it. This was civilians attacking civilians. There are no armies with symbols on the wings of bombers. They are covert little cadres of terrorists attacking from hiding.

My mind is to attack Afghanistan and with fuel-air bombs carpet the area until it melts into glass. But we would create an army of martyrs that we could never defeat. I feel that if we just killed Bin Laddin we would do the same.

Thats why I am in favor of trial under his own laws. Is it possible or just wishfdul thinking? Probably just wishful thinking. But we must act and we must be decisive and surgical and complete. But we must not be wrong.

Don

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:12 AM

Guys... I am down here in lower manhattan, and for all the fellows out their calling for blood, becasue the guy next to you goes nuts, the intelligent thing to do ... is not to go nuts yourself... that just makes for more insanity. Pray for peace, and more importantly make peace. One young fellow my wife and I ran into, said, "I'm no capitolist, but if we want to really destroy the guys who did this, send them American trade goods, not bombs, get them addicted to American culture..." seems like a good solution, when you see them sucking down the Pepsi in Ho Chi Mein City.
Another poor fellow was crying, had just come up from the path train, at the trade center, when it began to rain boddies. Five landed at his feet, he said, "Like apples exploding on the sidewalk..." wishing this insanity on any other prople wont stop it from happening again. Torturing the fellow we believe did this, makes us him. Let's be the grownups.
Larry

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:12 AM

Worse than Hiroshima or Dresden, DJH? Why is that? Because they were only Nips and Krauts? Because they were not innocent cililians? Because we won the war? Unfair of me to say it I know as I have many American friends who DON'T think like that but I am afraid that is the way you are coming across. Whether I agree or disagree with your sentiments is irrelevant. What I take exception to is your assumptive right to decide who should live and who should die. But, unlike you I suspect, I will probably forgive you.

DtG

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:01 AM

Wonderful- people "praying for revenge"---
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in
arms,the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the
drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the
bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down
the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering
wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched
down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers
and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked
with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings
listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their
hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of
applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the
pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of
Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.


It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that
ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness
straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal
safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.


Sunday morning came-next day the battalions would leave for the front; the
church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material
dreams-visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing
charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping
smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender!-then home from the war, bronzed
heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the
volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors
and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of
honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths.
The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the
first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the
building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and
beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation -- "God the all-
terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"
Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for
passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its
supplication was that an ever--merciful and benignant Father of us all
would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and
encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His
mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody
onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -


An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the
main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe
that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy
cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to
ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent
way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there,
waiting.

With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his
moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent
appeal,"Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God,
Father and Protector of our land and flag!"


The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the
startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he
surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an
uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said

"I come from the Throne-bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words
smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no
attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant
it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to
you its import-that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the
prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of-
except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken
thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two- one uttered, the other not. Both
have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and
the unspoken. Ponder this-keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon
yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at
the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which
needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some
neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer-the uttered part of it. I am
commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it-that part which
the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And
ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these
words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole
of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations
were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for
many unmentioned results which follow victory-must follow it, cannot help
but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the
unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle-
be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet
peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to
tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their
smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the
thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain;
help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to
wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us
to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the
wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the
sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn
with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-for
our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives,
protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way
with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who
is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid
with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause)

"Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the
Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.



-Mark Twain

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM

Thank you, Larry, for a voice of reason amidst the horror.

Torturing the fellow we believe did this, makes us him. Let's be the grownups. Hear, hear.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:39 AM

Thanks Greg...and I am glad you posted all of it. The War Prayer came to my mind too when I watched the news program talking to those "praying for revenge." A hundred years and we still can't see it. Brilliant man Clements......or at least a thinking man. We seem to still be in short supply of them. Thanks again.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM

That is wonderful, Greg. Thanks for the patience and time it must have taken to key it all in. Not a bad lad, old Sam. C. was he?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:35 AM

Only Binladdin?

Seems to me this ought to lead to a world-wide effort to destroy terrorist training camps and punish those who willingly suffer their presence and solicit funds for them.

Not just Binladdin. Not just Islamic anti-American terrorists. All terrorists.

Here in Canada, the FLQ lost its support in Quebec when two terrorist cells each deliberately murdered a kidnap victim. They had gone too far. Let us hope that enormity of this crime turns the tide of Arabic public opinion against terrorism.

In the United States, Irish bars were (are still are?) able to get away with collecting money for the IRA. Rich people were allowed to send money to the Contras in Central America. In Canada, we let Tamil refugees into the country, some of whom extort/cajole money from other Tamils, money that goes to support an ongoing conflict in Sri Lanka. We probably let some or all of the World Trade Center bombers into Canada, from whence they traveled through Maine to Boston. I believe a lot more can be done to fight terrorism, with only minor curtailment of our liberties. We can't make the world completely safe, but we can do a lot better.

Terrorism, not just Binladdin, has got to be fought.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:31 PM

I fail to see the point, we have to have what proof that Binladdin attacked us? Why would that be? Lets assume for a moment, a brief moment, that he was out singing "We are the World" with Michael Jackson when all this happened. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAS THIS MAN KILLED!

How many more will die because of him?

The next attack, when only a couple hundred die, are you going to then say, ok.. now we can take him.

I'm not saying Binladdin did this, No one knows. I think this needs to be a wakeup call to many countires that Terrorists and the contries that harbor them should NOT be handled with delicate gloves. I am not for the carpet bombing of a country, there are other ways to force them into the open. But this is lunacy, "we can't prove he did it" He has claimed credit for several other bombings, and still lives, still plans, still plots.

And for just a moment, one moment, imagine his reaction when he heard what happened. Do you think he mourned the death of the men, women and children that lived in terror before impact? What do you think he did? Do you suppose he smiled, celebrated, or maybe was envious that he didn't do it first.

Spare that man, and he will kill others again, and again, and again. And when the next plane goes down, will you then say, "maybe we should have taken him down earlier."

I am filled with unbelievable rage over what has happened to this country. It took me hours to stop wishing that we could turn the middle-east into a big glass sheet. The thought was wrong, purly ignorant, and filled with a lust for revenge. As I calmed, I found myself careful with my thoughts, not wanting the innocent to die. But make no mistake, Binladdin is no innocent man whether this was his doing or not. I pray that in time I can bring myself to forgive myself for the horrific thoughts I have had. I am a pacifist for the most part, and wishing the death of so many as I watched people celebrate the deaths of tens of thousands is more then I could handle.

Maybe in time I will continue to calm, and think more through why we should not go after the terrorist training camps, and the groups that operate while hiding behind the innocent people of a country. But for now, I can only hope that Binladdin dies, alone, dishonored, and rots in hell... not because I think he was behind this act. But because he was behind others. All the while trying to understand why we should care that if he did this or not, since he has killed so many, and will do so again.

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: annamill
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:37 PM

(tongue in cheek, but really meaning it)

Like the military, who punishes all in the squad for the actions of one. And the purpose, simple, the men in the squad keep each other in line.

Now, if we blew everyone who may have been involved away, everyone would think twice about doing such a thing again!

Ok, a bit much, your all right, we have to stop, find the group who did this awful thing and punish him severly!

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Rich McCarthy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:39 PM

I agree with Steve on this one.

Even if no particular person, persons or group is ever
identified as responsible, all terrorist groups that have
been responsible for violent activity should be
dismantled by direct or indirect action by ALL nations.
All fundraising activities that contribute to such terrorist groups should be stopped.

We owe it to the victims.
Having said this, I believe strongly that we-both Americans and and their friends in other countries- must not target innocent muslims- as a group or as individuals, either in North America or elsewhere.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM

OK, so we don't want to make him a hero. After the next incident (and if he lives, there WILL be another) who's gonna tell some kid, "Hey hang in there dude, I know your Dad died but hey, at least we didn't make Bin Laddin a hero!"

I agree, we need to make sure we get to the bottm of this in terms of who is actually responsible, but, as soon as the information is available, the murderer must die.

Frank