Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


Binladdin Must Die

Related threads:
New Songs for 9-11-2001 (109)
Masters of war who build the big guns (45)
Fly the FLAG!!! (175)
WTC memorial lights in NYC (11)
American Attacks**Part Fifty - Got him! (56)
American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky? (108)
Gospel Sing 9/11 (57)
American Attacks**Part Twelve: Steady On (104)
AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul (111)
AMERICAN ATTACKS*PART TEN-&the future is (116) (closed)
AMERICAN ATTACKS--PART TWO (116) (closed)
AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later (110) (closed)
Lest we forget: USA aggression (106)
Will Bush Be Blamed? (145)
AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still (108) (closed)
AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART SEVEN..thoughts (101) (closed)
NYC Mudcatters check in... (65)
AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh? (100) (closed)
A Peace Pledge (26)
The price of freedom ?? (58)
Waking up to post-traumatic stress (14)
Pinewoods going forward (6)
The best I've seen about this tragedy (28)
While I am Still Rational-- (26)
Contrasting views of the USA (7)
Why do we try anymore? (35)
AMERICAN ATTACKS- - - PART FIVE (112) (closed)
I can't sleep (16)
New threat in New York... (4)
Missing at World Trade (12)
Prayers/Thoughts for all involved (32)
RADIO: Episode 95 - America at War (24)
Praying For Revenge--The War Prayer (21)
Darren Bohan Missing! (5) (closed)
Non-music: God Bless America (Sept 2001) (6) (closed)
PLEASE STAY OFF THE PHONE LINES (2)
Partial list of casualties - more later (6)
AMERICAN ATTACKS- - -PART FOUR (115) (closed)
help me remember the fallen (5)
AMERICAN ATTACKS---PART THREE (115) (closed)
World Trade Center-Unreal Disaster (113) (closed)


SeanM 15 Sep 01 - 03:55 AM
gus C 15 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,faswilli2 15 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM
Melani 14 Sep 01 - 11:11 PM
InOBU 14 Sep 01 - 09:29 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 09:24 PM
SeanM 14 Sep 01 - 09:21 PM
gus C 14 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM
Paul from Hull 14 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM
InOBU 14 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM
SeanM 14 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM
GUEST,Good Point 14 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM
toadfrog 14 Sep 01 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Nonviolent Resistance 14 Sep 01 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Melani 14 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM
gus C 14 Sep 01 - 04:10 AM
SeanM 14 Sep 01 - 02:08 AM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 01:58 AM
Sorcha 13 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM
InOBU 13 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM
InOBU 13 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM
sophocleese 13 Sep 01 - 04:15 PM
InOBU 13 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM
InOBU 13 Sep 01 - 02:48 PM
guinnesschik 13 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM
Pseudolus 13 Sep 01 - 11:09 AM
Pseudolus 13 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM
marty D 13 Sep 01 - 02:54 AM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM
Melani 13 Sep 01 - 02:20 AM
Troll 13 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM
Melani 13 Sep 01 - 01:45 AM
SeanM 13 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 01:26 AM
SeanM 13 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM
Margo 13 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM
AliUK 12 Sep 01 - 09:13 PM
GUEST,Sad but angry 12 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,Sad and Angry 12 Sep 01 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Lucius 12 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM
Little Hawk 12 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM
Margo 12 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM
SeanM 12 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM
DougR 12 Sep 01 - 07:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM
SeanM 12 Sep 01 - 06:51 PM
GUEST,Les B 12 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Please 12 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:55 AM

"Linked to" and "Under orders from" are two entirely different worlds. By the logic that if someone is 'linked to' Bin Laden they are guilty or vice versa, George Bush is guilty - he's a one time member of the CIA, the organization that set Bin Laden up as a power to begin with.

Bin Laden runs terrorist training camps - trying to find terrorists without some link to him is like trying to find South American dictators without links to the SOA (another fine US export).

But he has admitted to that. Again - and again, and again and again... why blame something on him before it's proven when he's involved when there are so many other acts that he's admitted to? Once more - he may be behind the NY attack, but until it's proven, using that as a rationale to launch open warfare against him (and/or Afghanistan) is putrid reasoning. It's like insisting without evidence that a mass murderer is also a virgin sacrificing satanist - what, you weren't ready to accept him as being guilty unless he's blown up into a mythical demon?

And another time around the mulberry bush on this one too. Last time, as at this point you're not going to listen to what I have to say and I can't conceivably see your viewpoint as anything but barbaric: He can be punished without warfare, without killing, and without giving him and his ilk more reason than ever to step up attacks. In the face of the fact that pretty much every government (with the exception of Iraq and Jerry Falwell, apparently) agrees that this was a heinous crime and that the perpetrators need to be punished, it needs to be understood that a large portion of the world governments that we consider allies do NOT support capital punishment and would likely not support any attempts to kill the perpetrators. Insisting on his death is not only barbaric, it's counterproductive to actually punishing him.

Unless you really DO think that we need to be seen as vigilantes.

M

No more on this thread. It's rhetoric from two diametrically opposed positions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM

All 19 hijackers have been linked to Bin Laden , wait until there is proof?
Mayrterdom !!! your right we can't make him a marytr, leave him to continue his lifes work.
I am all for getting him peacably handed over, it aint gonna happen, but, if it were, wonderful.But they would also have to hand over all his cronies and the Taliban officials who harbored and supported the terrorists.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,faswilli2
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM

Go ahead and show your flag Melani. If you don't show it for the good old USA, then show it as an expression of comradship for the rescuers, the fireman and the victims in NYC. Bin Laden will die, if not for this , for the other crimes is has committed and taken responsiblity for. Other terrorists will also be brought to justice and those that sponsor them. Frankly, it is about time. This was a wakeup call for the civilized world to act. We have given peace a chance over and over and the US and other "first world" countries have been stepped on time and again. This was an act of war. And don't think this is a holy war. This is not a religious act .. Islam does not advocate this. Some fanatical muslims have successfully incorporated this "doctrine" into their followers. This war won't result in massive bombing but will instead be selective strikes, incursions, and yes, assasinations that should hve taken place long ago.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:11 PM

"Bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age" is, unfortunately, a pretty short trip. Removing the Taliban from the face of the earth would be a blessing. I can't imagine that they would have any more regard for the suffering of the Afghani people than Saddam has had for the Iraqis. They have already created great suffering all by themselves. I still regret that Schwarzkopf didn't go on into Baghdad when he had the chance, though I guess we'd probably still be occupying the place if he had.

I'm not really sure what I'm suggesting here, but it doesn't seem like anybody has done the correct thing yet. I am very concerned over the idea of religious fanatics wanting to force people to do it their way or die. I am also very reluctant to display an American flag, not because of any negative feelings about it, but because I'm afraid of seeming to jump on some simplistic bandwagon howling for revenge. It's been shown over and over throughout the centuries that a land invasion of Afghanistan is not going to work. And besides, are they the ones who sponsored this, or are they too busy oppressing their own people?

Then we have Israel, also being run as a theocracy. That also makes me very uneasy, because it seems that if your view is that "my way is the only right way" there will never be any room for compromise.

So I actually have visions of the UN kicking butt for real, forcing all the fanatics to behave, but that probably won't happen either. Arrrggghhh.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:29 PM

Hi DJH, I don't believe in turning the other cheek to benlaudin, if he did this. However, if one goes after him with the army, we have seen in Israel's case, how that has not been effective. On the other hand, agreeing with Troll, though, not by the same tactics, one can acctualy isolate Afganistan and benlaudin, in much more effective ways without having to shoot down planes, by international agreement to seize those palnes and any other accetts that leave the country... but after one cuts the accetts down to size one can deal with benlaudin in court the way the world is not putting malosavich on trial. Cheers, and all the best, Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:24 PM

Cut off his support. Cut off his funds. Since he seems to be in the mountains of Afganistan, and the Taliban seems to be protecting him, seal off the country.
Nothing goes in; nothing goes out. Build a wall and patrol it constantly. Shoot down any plane that tries to overfly the country. Raise the bounty to 50 million.
When the Taliban gets hungry enough, they'll hand him over.
Innocent people will die you say?
They are dieing now.
The "World" will not approve?
Your point is?
If we are going to go after bin Laden, we should do so with a plan that ensures the minimum loss of American lives. War won't do that, but a plan similar to that which I have sketched here could.

troll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:21 PM

OK, DJH - fight against whom?

It's been said before, but I'll say it here again - you can't solve the problem of terrorism by shooting people. Martyrdom breeds more who will follow them, hoping to be martyrd themselves.

Comparing the terrorists to Hitler doesn't hold water with me - Hitler launched a well orchestrated sustained military campaign against Europe. The genocide came AFTER the fact in that case. Terrorists launch individual attacks on mostly civilian targets, and rarely are publicly known.

And again - how is prosecuting via trial through normal international channels 'turning the other cheek'? I've seen very little "Oh, those adorable terrorist scamps, let's give them a nickle and hope they go away" from ANYONE on this site, or for that matter, from anyone I've spoken or interacted with. From what I've seen on the 'cat, the closest to pure pacifism is what Larry and others (myself included) have said - that violence is not the answer, that it could seriously exacerbate the problem, and that other, non-violent methods would have a MUCH better chance of bringing to an end the vicious circle that violence creates.

And again - unless you've access to evidence that noone else seems to have, Bin Laden is STILL innocent until proven guilty. It's an American tradition, y'know.

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Inobu, Colin Powell has made statements that they will act in the manner you suggested, cutting off the cash. I agree whole heartedly. I hope it goes a long way to silencing the guns, sooner.

A serious question to those who think killing the monsters is not the answer. How many years until your turning the other cheek leads to the Bin Ladens of the world seeing the error of their ways? How many deaths will it take till THEY know too many people have died? Be Honest.
If you seriously believe they will learn their lesson in a generation or 3, Is it a service to humanity to permit the learning experience?
in the mean time, Will the hate spread like fungus on the lakes of tears? Will their methods become the "norm"?
Would you have employed pacifism against Hitler? Would it have worked?
Like I said earlier , it is Pseudo-pacifism. Very Occasionally the Humane thing to do is FIGHT. This is one of those times.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

Good point, InObu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM

You kno fellows, I say again, we let armies try and solve the problem of war, and it did not work. Many more people have nightmares about lawyers than they do about soldiers. Let us go in and go after the money, Instead of Afganistan, let lawyers go after the Swiss (or where ever these fellows keep their money )and Benlaudin's dough ray me. No bucks no bang. Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

Yes, but what point? WE may think we're making a stand that 'terrorism will not be tolerated. THEY on the other hand, given past reactions, would likely take the view that the US is being high handed and imperialistic, enforcing US standards on Muslim countries, and that any methods possible to curb US aggression are to be lauded.

Violence IS NOT THE ANSWER. WAR IS NOT EITHER.

Are we a civilized nation, or a nation willing to act in the tradition of those terrorists we're claiming to despise by obliterating people who MAY NOT HAVE DONE ANYTHING?

The warmongering is getting truly frightening. The local paper here carried the huge banner headline "TARGET: BIN LADEN". It wasn't until you got into the back of the story, buried at the rear of the section, that the story ever mentioned that Bin Laden is denying responsibility, and that while some of the hijackers had 'ties' to his organization, there apparently is also a link to an unnamed German radical organization. Further, every effort was taken to paint Bin Laden as an independent terrorist, dedicated to destroying the US through his entire life - it'd apparently confuse the populace to mention that we trained him, gave him truckloads of money and weapons, and pointed him at the USSR in the past.

Again - he IS wanted for planning other attacks against the US and other nations. He HAS claimed responsibility for those. There's a decent chance that he will be found to be behind the NY attacks as well. But he has NOT been charged with this, beyond the hysteria that the public is being whipped into. By all means - he should be punished for his actions. But only the ones that he's been proven to have been behind.

Until proof is delivered that he was or was not behind the NY attacks, any talk of 'revenge' against him for those attacks is premature and on the same level as the terrorist mentality that started it. We just happen to have the 'moral high ground' and an army big enough to pretty much do whatever we want.

WAIT FOR PROOF. WAIT FOR JUSTICE, NOT BLIND REVENGE.

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Good Point
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM

The Afghans gave the British army hell when the latter was the best in the world. They held out against the Russians for seven years even though the Russians were operating on far fewer restrictions than the U.S. in Vietam. So, it is true that we should think a lot before starting a ground war. Likewise, a few rockets or air strikes are token efforts. However, sustained air strikes against MILITARY targets in conjunction with hit-and-run raids by Airborne troops might get the point across.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:43 PM

Query: Assuming Bin Laden "must die," who is volunteering to go find him? I'm certainly in favor of taking strong steps to destroy his organization. That's a hard and complicated job. I very much doubt it can be done by waging "war." I read letters to the editor in WSJ, saying we should bomb, among other things, Afganistan, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. I spoke last night to a friend who is usually rational. He mentioned all the offenses the Taliban had committed against women, Buddhist art works, etc., and proposed we "bomb Afghanistan back into the stone age." A truly self defeating idea.

Bringing in Mr. Bin Laden would require sending in the infantry and conquering every inch of Afghanistan - assuming he didn't see the infantry coming and skip across the border. Anyone think that is worth the lives of (say) 50-60 thousand men? Remember, the Soviet Union tried that, and the Soviet Union is no more.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Nonviolent Resistance
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:12 PM

A lot of people have said that the U.S. should pursue nonviolent means to deal with terrorism. However, has anyone ever considered that the goals of most terrorist organizations would be better served thru nonviolent resistance or political efforts. It worked in India and for African-Americans in the U.S. Even Irish independence was more of an outcome of political efforts than armed conflict. If the Palestinians (or some of them) had pursued such channels from the beginning instead of machine gunning children, they would have achieved many of their goals decades ago. I realize that nonviolence requires a painful amount of patience, but it is much less painful than whipping the most powerful nation on earth into a homocidal frenzy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM

A number of people have suggested that the problem will not be solved until we look at the reasons these guys were willing to kill themselves as well as thousands of others. There have been people living in squalid refugee camps for over 50 years now. I hear about terrorism in Israel, followed by the Israeli army bulldozing houses and killing children caught in sprays of machine gun fire. Clearly that approach is not working, but the Palestinians are also pretty intractable. At the risk of offending my husband's Iraeli relatives, I am beginning to think maybe the UN should go in there and kick both their butts and force them to behave. The whole situation totally sucks, and it will never end until the fanatics on both sides are dealt with.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:10 AM

I haven't been Back since early posts, phone line problem. But I have to say to little Hawk , you are not a pacifist if you fear Karmic retribution when it comes to vanquishing the Devil himself (metaphorically speaking), If that is why you would not act it is cowardice not pacifism.
The idea that he would be a martyr as reason to let him continue, he will continue, is also cowardice and exactly what he hopes to accomplish.
Like I said right up front , I am not talking about revenge here.I am a pacifist. Fortunately I believe the goverment will see to his demise. Thank God.
I really don't understand some people's philosophy here it sounds like psuedo-pacifism to me. The Devil metaphor isn't relinquished purely to the realm of metaphor. The Devil did visit NYC by way of that evil man and his minions, and he will visit many times more world wide if men who would and HAVE!!! done such things are permitted to live, a luxury their victims no longer have.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:08 AM

Doug;

Come out to Orange County, California some time. You'll find many young men willing to dispute the 'death' of Naziism with you quite violently. I've run afoul of them once or twice at concerts.

Are the Nazis as a governmental force gone? I'd say 'mostly' but not 'entirely'. The right wing party in Germany has spawned factions embracing the whole of Hitler's regime, and expanding it even farther. Around the world, other groups may not be 'nazi' in name, but in spirit they're as close as could be.

No, they're not gone. As much as could be wished, it's an infection that it doesn't seem can be cured.

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:58 AM

You're right, Larry. Nazism died in April, 1945, not 1947.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM

I'm not exactly "fed up" but I am emotionally exhausted and tired of the war-mongering, hate mongering, trolling and flaming. Not only here on Mudcat, but also in the media.

I have heard all the news reports and recieved all the e mails I want on the subject for a few days-- I need space to think and I can't do that when the subject is worn out until we have hard news. I am tired of hash and re-hash just for something to say.

I am tired of being emotionally and visually assaulted by something I have done everything I can do about. If you don't hear much from me for a few days, go look in the Lyr Req threads. That is where I will be. Not in any of these others.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM

Oh, in these days where take out means different things to different people... take out folks from the wreakage! survivors!...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM

Bless you Soph. anyone who thinks one can compair this to fighting a nation, with cities and leaders, well, they should come to this planet. Read about the history of the mid east, they have been killing each other for centries each trying to win. Coptic Egyptians accross the stree from me, are praying for peace, the owner of that restaurant had his grandfather killed thirty years ago by this hatred... don't take my word for it, READ!!! Go to Isreal and LOOK Bombs wont do it!!!!!!!!!!Cheers, Larry Flash... they are in the process of taking out more folks right this minute, 6:20 pm NY! Pray for success!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:15 PM

At the advice of the Red Cross I'm waiting till a clinic on next Thursday to give blood. InOBU, I'm doing my best to hold everyone in the light. I wish that the voices yelling for more would stop. Its an addiction, "Just one more puff and then I'll quit!" "Just one more big blow for whatever and then we can have peace." I'm glad to hear your voice again on this forum, you and Little Hawk are gentler and more eloquent in your writing than my hot headedness.

Peace and a return to laughter.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Well one may ask why IG Farbin is still alive and sinning? Nazism did not die in 1947. There are now walled ghettos being built in Czech Republic for Roma... The world turned away when Spain went facist... had they responded, in so many ways, but the world waited until there was no responce but war, and then kept trading with facists and kept doing so through and after the war. lets grow up already, Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM

Larry: War hasn't worked? Then why aren't we all speaking German or Japanese as our native language? :>)

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:48 PM

Hi Margo, and all others who say war is the answer... Well... It has not worked yet, and we have been trying it for thousands of years. What we have not tried is peace. It is rare I use words like I am going to, so if little ones are reading this, understand it is a unique day... but I remember, as a young Quaker hearing someone say, killing for peace is like fucking for chastity. Let's TRY and become sane. I am very very tired of the fostering of mental illness by the (not our) leaders. Margo, come here, where we are, here in downtown New York... it has to end now. Pray for peace. Work for justice. Use your head, come with us out of the stone age, (actually likly a more peaceable time than now!) Larry


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: guinnesschik
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

Bib Laden DID make threats against against the USA. Perhaps he should be made an example. His "supposed" innocence is more ridiculous than his "imagined" guilt. Find him, try him in the USA, and make of him an example.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:09 AM

I agree that the country needs to be sure that in fact Bin Laddin was the mastermind. And I agree that if killed, the mastermind will be given Martyr Status. But I'll tell you this, I'd rather himbe a dead martyr than a living hero. Leaving whoever it is around to continue to hate and plan will doom us to living through it again.

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM

I agree that the country needs to be sure that in fact Bin Lannid was the mastermind. And I agree that if killed, the mastermind will be given Martyr Status. But I'll tell you this, I'd rather himbe a dead martyr than a living hero. Leaving whoever it is around to continue to hate and plan will doom us to living through it again.

Frank


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: marty D
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:54 AM

Without TV we'd have never seen that horrid woman dancing and clucking, or those young assholes shooting their guns in the air as the news of the massacre reached them.

Without TV we wouldn't have that vision of Bin Laden and his revolting smirk.

Without TV we'd never have seen that sickening spectacle of Sadam Hussein and the scared little boy.

Without TV we'd never have watched (our friends) the Chinese, crush dissent in Tiennamin Square.

These images are burned on my consciousness forever, and it makes me very sad. I don't WANT to think that whole races and countries can be 'sound bited' into one TV image.

I wonder what TV images help fuel their hate against US?

My guess is that many of the people who find Dubya so superficial and in over his head are getting a good part of that image simply because he looks so hesitant and bumbling on TV.

Just rambling. But I really DO think that the tube has colored our political views forever, and definitely not in a way that will help the human race survive.

marty


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM

Melani: I think when most of us think of war, we think of it as it was during WWII, Korea, or Viet Nam. I doubt there will be another war like those. A war against terriorism will be highly technical, involving aircraft, and smaller hit and run elements of air infantry. That's my opinion at least. I don't think there will be anymore "Battles of the Bulge," or "D-Days," in other words. Neither do I (IMO) forsee the need for a "Draft."

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:20 AM

Thanks, Troll. That's actually sort of reassuring, in a perverted sort of way. I guess I'm enough of an arrogant American to hope that if we go to war, it will be with some country we can beat the crap out of. I am not in favor of the suckers getting away with this or licking anybody's boots. I just worry that it doesn't get so out of hand that we all end up glowing in the dark.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM

None of us are Melani. But I, for one, do not intend to lick bin Ladens boots or roll over and play dead for some fanatic to prevent it.
Pakistan has one or two fairly primative nuclear devices and the US has enough to turn their whole country into a bubbling lake of glass and they know it. There will be no nuclear war. Mostly there will be sabre-rattling.
It plays well with the constituents.

troll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:45 AM

You can be sure that the perpetrators of this act will be hunted down and dealt with in some way. A few hundred people can apparently be overlooked to some extent, but thousands of people, as well as the total destruction of the world's economic nerve center, will absolutely prompt some kind of response that's going to involve more dead people. With any luck it will be done delicately enough "through channels", as Sean suggests. Now they are talking to Pakistan, which is a nuclear power. I am still not up for World War III.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM

In my case, it's the difference between 'turn the other cheek' and 'blindly persecute suspects'. I've been seeing FAR too much of the 'revenge over justice' mindset lately, and it frightens me.

When the guilty parties are revealed and convicted, I sincerely hope they're prosecuted to the full extent of whatever body tries them. But as much as I believe that they should be punished, I also believe that accusing ANYONE without significant evidence is nearly a crime in itself. Given the current atmosphere, it's highly likely that someone singled out (with or without evidence) is going to be hurt.

I guess my point is - acting out of anger will only create more anger, and quite likely in places it had not been before. Acting with reserve will still hopefully result in justice being done - but without creating a new legion of terrorists to continue the work that the recent ones started, and without creating a state of open warfare where still MORE innocents will die.

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:26 AM

SeanM: I don't think anyone is proposing mass destruction against ben Laden or anyone else unless there is proof. If there is, there won't be a hole deep enough for the guilty party to hide in, however.

I'm sure everyone is aware that the cable news channels are projecting that the U. S. may have suffered 20,000 casulties as a result of the Terrorist's cowardly attack. Can you comprehend what that would mean to your country?

Those of you who suggest turning the cheek, I just hope you, someday, don't find yourselves in a location targeted by the people that planned and executed this crime against our country.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM

Sign me up as lead candy ass then. Last time I checked, the US still professed to believe in "innocent until proven guilty". Unless you've information that noone else has, they still have not found a 'guilty party' in this particular case.

My sincerest condolences for the loss of your friend, but how would it solve things to start killing more people without knowing you're actually killing the guilty ones? How would it feel if you killed everyone you felt was associated, then found out it was Americans trying to protest against the government? More importantly, how would giving the terrorists more martyrs to trump around for their cause be any better than just locking them away for the remainder of their life/lives?

As to that particular mindset - also remember that it's not JUST an Arab thing to feel that dying for the cause is a holy or justified act. There've been several cases of it in pretty much every conflict I can think of - Japanese Kamikaze pilots in WWII, Irish bombers willing to die for the cause - we even glorify an American for announcing "Give me liberty, or give me death". Suicidal patriotism isn't a foreign concept unfortunately.

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Margo
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM

AliUK, this was not a "symbolic act". It was mass murder. It was not simply to get attention or make a statement, it was to murder thousands of people (for whatever purpose).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: AliUK
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:13 PM

what do the acrs of governments have to do with people. The UN is the focus of all western governments, all western governments re involved and all western peoples are threatened, the U.S. was just a symbolic act against the west because it sets itself up as the guardian of the west. Of course Bin Laden is responsible, whoever doubts that is being a candy ass. If the Taliban government is sincere in its apologies and denials it should offer him up to the west and he should face the justice he deserves. I lost a friend yesterday, a dear and sweet person who didn't mean any harm to anyone, but because she was american she suffered the "consequences". Shoot the buggers and bedamned, we're all damned anyway.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Sad but angry
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM

I certainly was not trying to be anti-semite. Nor to be anti-Arab And I agree with your sentiments regarding that. I was referring to what I consider to be the inevitability of our future. For all I know it may well be a good thing for us all and could well make the world a better place.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

Our way of life will eventually be totally subjicated by Islam and I should think that within a couple of hundred years. Everyone in the world will be a Moslem.

Know what that reminds me of? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Anti-semitism, but directed at Arabs instead of Jews. And that's a mindset that I really can never understand.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Sad and Angry
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:17 PM

One of the first maxims we learn is 'understand your enemy' In this case I'm afraid it's impossible. I have first hand experience of living and working among Arab nationals in their lands, and I'm convinced that we will never understand their mindset. After more than 20 years out there I came to believe that our way of life will eventually be totally subjicated by Islam and I should think that within a couple of hundred years Everyone in the world will be a Moslem.

I think it's too late already. Unless.... this is to be the defining moment.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Lucius
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM

Thanks McGrath. It's important to remember that we made an unholy alliance with these terrorists when their focus was Reagan's "Evil Empire". No one has clean hands. I lost two dear friends--innocent except to be living under a regime of sabre rattlers that are the number one arms supplier to the world. I hope that someone will have the courage to stop this insanity and stand for peace.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM

DJH - Everybody dies in their own good time. To wish death on others is not a wise course, karmically speaking. However, who am I to stand between you and you karma?

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Margo
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM

I disagree with you Larry. I think that the war on terrorism should be waged against all terrorist groups. Don't just go after bin laden. I think that securing the peace is not possible by doing nothing. Plus, I think that his millions should be confiscated and used to compensate families and the building owner. He can't do anything without his money.

I am a religious person. I believe that all war is not bad. There is a good fight. The commandment is (properly translated) thou shalt not commit murder. God knows that self defense is not murder. There will always be another terrorist, and that makes it all the more important to stand up to them and make it as difficult as possible for them to operate.

It is no sin to go after them. I think rather, it is a sin to NOT stand up to them. My 2 cents. Margo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM

Well, I may indeed... but even with no faith, I'd still support the idea that the US government at least needs to TRY using 'normal channels'. Not to do so could easily send a message to the world that we really don't care about the UN or it's missions, and that while we'll happily make OTHER countries submit their disputes, we don't feel constrained to do so ourselves.

In related news, an article here is stating that there is evidence that the attack on the Pentagon building was initially meant for the White House, and towards the end of this article they surmise that the Camp David attack was brought down early by resistance from the passengers. Also at the end of the article is this quote:

Powell called for a global coalition to fight ``terrorism'', including NATO, Russia, China and also Muslim countries.

``We have to make sure that we go after terrorism and get it by its branch and root,'' he told a news conference.

A Pakistani newspaper said bin Laden had denied blame. ``The terrorist act is the action of some American group. I have nothing to do with it,'' it quoted him as saying.

So at the very least, it DOES look as if the government is considering using standard international channels, and also that Bin Laden is denying culpability. Though the attackers are (via evidence gathered at the crash sites and phone conversations from the hijacked planes) very likely Arab nationals (from the UAE possibly), this shows that there is STILL no concrete evidence as to who attacked us. Yes, it may be Bin Laden. But it may also not be.

And finally... I agree that Bin Laden should be prosectued for acts of terrorism in the past that he's been found responsible for and guilty of. I personally feel that he SHOULD be extradited and punished for his acts. However, in context of yesterday's attacks, unless he's found to be responsible for them as well, it's a cheap context to use the tragedy as an excuse to 'get him anyway, because he deserves it." Let him be punished for what he HAS done, rather than because "someone has to pay".

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:04 PM

SeanM: you have more faith in the U.N. than I do.

GuestPlease: I rarely agree with "guests" but I do agree with you. I think you got it right. ben Ladin HAS already been indited for terriorist crimes against America.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM

It's easy enough saying "all terrorists" - but then we find someone who seems to be on our side. Bin Laden started out fighting the Russians with American support. I don't think there is any indication he has changed his views or his ethics much since then.

No government's got clean hands here.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:51 PM

Doug...

The reason I say that using the UN as the mediating source should this turn out to be an actual 'act of war' is to prevent it becoming a REAL war. In theory, that's what the UN is there for - to act as a mediating body between sovereign states in disagreements or conflicts. The US government may feel it has a "moral" right to pound whomever did this into small, bloody bits - but that is retaliation of the same nature as the attack against us, just dressed up as 'morally correct'. At the very least, other terrorist organizations would easily be able to use it as evidence that the US is 'evil' and step up their actions accordingly. At the very worst, it could escalate into open warfare.

By going 'through channels', the hope would be that at the very least the UN body would pressure the agressor to hand over those deemed responsible. It's entirely possible that the UN would even allow an expeditionary force to go in and take said agressor - it's happened before, though not with spectacular levels of success (but then again, the US ain't got such a hot record on that kind of expedition either).

I stand by my assertion that a blind, reflexive attack against whomever masterminded the attacks has a probability of causing more harm than good. We still don't know WHO did it, though. And until that is definitively established, any talk of retribution is just so much pissing into the wind.

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM

So if Bin Laddin is the guilty party, use some of his own medicine against him. He's a millionaire. There's already a paltry, by his standards, price on his head - $5 million ? Why not up the ante and use some of America's vaunted wealth, which he hates. Kick the ante up to a $billion or so. See if his comrades can resist that much, and don't put any more American lives at stake trying to reach him. You could probably get more people off the street to contribute to that right now, then do to United Way !


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Please
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Let's be rational here:

A.I thought that Bin laden's guilt has already been proven in terms of other acts of terrorism. We have every right to take him in custody for those acts as well as for being a suspect in yesterdays acts.

B.Retaliating against a nation is not going to lead to WWIII. We proved that with Desert Storm and many other epsiodes in which rogue nations have been punished. Some of the more extreme Muslim nations might preach a pan-Islam Jihad, but let's be brutally honest, it would mean getting the shit kicked out of them by a forced American/Israeli coalition. If they could actually do it, they wouldnt have done it.

C.Regarding killing Bin Laden. It is illogical to say that it is wrong to kill someone because it will only make him a martyr and someone else will take his place. That is like saying that we shouldn't execute a crime boss or gang leader because it will make him a hero. Such logic would make law enforcement impossible.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 8 April 9:52 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.