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Binladdin Must Die

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gus C 11 Sep 01 - 11:16 PM
Lepus Rex 11 Sep 01 - 11:21 PM
khandu 11 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM
catspaw49 11 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM
gus C 11 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM
Troll 11 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM
heric 11 Sep 01 - 11:36 PM
DonMeixner 11 Sep 01 - 11:36 PM
SeanM 11 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM
gus C 11 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM
Sorcha 11 Sep 01 - 11:50 PM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 12:02 AM
gus C 12 Sep 01 - 12:29 AM
SeanM 12 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 12:36 AM
gus C 12 Sep 01 - 12:48 AM
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Subject: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:16 PM

Every one Knows He is behind it. If He survives welcome to the Vulgur, Voilent new World. I am Not Being Vengeful, Just Rational, Peace requires his death, Peace is more important than he is, just as his victims have always been. After Todays attack The world is not the same , We must take it back.
No Kind Calming Words please. I am interested in calm and peace, That Is Why I Said What I said.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:21 PM

You drunk?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: khandu
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM

Naw, he ain't drunk! He is a rational human!

khandu!!!


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM

And here we have a classic case of not understanding the mindset. Killing him makes him a martyr and would increase the violence......oh forget it. I'm tired ...

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM

Anyone Who thinks he should be allowed to hide and survive is a fool who puts appearing as a Humane individual ahead of acctually being one. This worst terrorist attack in the history of the world is the first of many if fear is allowed to reign. Binladdin alive = Fear.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM

DJH, at one time "everyone" knew that if you left a piece of spoiled cheese sitting out, it would turn into a dead rat.
They also "knew" that the earth was flat.
Columbus' voyage and the discovery of bacteria changed what everyone "knew."
Bin Laden may well be guilty. But we are a nation of laws and the law MUST be respected.
Catch him, try him, and, IF we find him guilty, THEN castrate him with a dull butter knife and watch as he bleeds to death.

troll


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

Prove it, please. I am waiting for solid proof.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:36 PM

>>>we are a nation of laws and the law MUST be respected. Catch him, try him, and, IF we find him guilty, THEN castrate him with a dull butter knife and watch as he bleeds to death<<<<

Umm, that's against the law.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:36 PM

If Osama Bin Laddin is responsible he must be brought before an Islamic court and tried and convicted for bringing about the suicides of countless followers. Suicide is a crime in the Koran and under Islamic law the Mullahs and Ayatollahs would have to find him guilty. And I hope be excecuted by the faithful. This would limit his martyrdom.

Just rambling conjecture.

Don


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

Exactly, Sorcha.

Do we blindly launch assault after assault against "probable" targets until we decide enough blood has been shed?

We claim to be a nation of laws. We claim to believe in freedom and the rights of mankind. To deprive other nation's citizens of these rights without proof is a travesty on the level of the attacks on New York.

In a rational world, we would present grievances to the UN over the attack, and immediately set about using all our efforts to determine who the attacker is. Then, present THAT to the UN and request the turn over of the attacker, should it be necessary. Armed intervention without international consent would be just as much an act of war as it would be if the Taliban were to invade the US to capture 'heretics'.

Anything less is a return to 'eye for an eye' brutality. While tempting, it's also part of what has given the US the reputation of bullying that we've managed to acquire.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM

As To the idea that he deserves a trail , of course, I am not an ignorant barbarian, I want him Tried and found guilty of one of the most attrocious acts in human history. Dresden and Hiroshima don't compare , There were declarations of war. Catching him is of the first and utmost importance.
As To The Idea that we are not sure that he was behind it, one of his right hand men is/was due to be sentenced for an embassy bombing on 9/12 and three weeks ago he stated that The BIG attack on the united states was coming three weeks hence.
I am whole heartedly against anymore innocent life being lost, anywhere in the world, That is the only part I see as a difficulty. We need to get the UN to put a strangle hold on the whole mid east until the coward is surrendered. And Then for the first time I am Pro Death Penalty in the name of peace.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Sep 01 - 11:50 PM

Again, prove it.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:02 AM

Okay....Let me try it again.......One more and last time.......

IF it is an attack by the Islamic Jihad, then we need to do what Don suggested. But we also need to get an understanding of the mindset that we are dealing with and that they BELIEVE not in suicide, but in giving their lives for the cause and in fact it will gain them instant admission to heaven. This isn't an easy thing for us to understand is it? We have to have a consortium of all goverments willing to stop terrorism of any kind and that those who harbor them are as guilty as the ones who commit the crime.

Then, sadly, I take a reality check and I find people coming out of prayer services saying they prayed for the people involved and for "Revenge." I think of the recent history of how the country has acted and I KNOW that if we can convince the citizens and the government at least NOT to bomb the living shit out of whomever we THINK MIGHT have done it, it will be a victory. It's not what I'd like and I hope that we can do better, but to do so, we need to see what actually will work and to do that we need to get inside the mind of the terrorist.

It's going to get bad......How bad is to some degree up to us and the messages we send to the leadership. Right now, I'm not real encouraged..............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:29 AM

Spaw, What message are we sending if binLadden is committing terrorist act # ?, 2 Years from now? I am not for carpet bombing anyone , But this incident can't end without him being brought to justice. It Just Can't.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM

DJH - you're missing part of the point, I think.

What if Osama BinLaden had nothing to do with this attack? What if the attack was brought about by another Timothy McVeigh? Or some other nation's lunatic fringe?

In that case, attacking him or any of his facilities would be the WORST possible thing we could do. Not only would it very likely increase the future terrorist activities against the US, it would also give anyone with a chip on their shoulder a bit more credibility against the US.

I understand that you've been affected by this - if I remember correctly, you live in the area. But also, understand that though this act enflamed the passions and desires for vengeance, to give into those would merely pave the way for more death in a very immediate way.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:36 AM

DJH....When did I say he shouldn't be brought to justice?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:48 AM

The perfect timing of the incident, all the planes were hijacked within five minutes of each other, all the planes were full of an explosive quantity of 'going all the way out to the west coast' fuel, and the success in accomplishing this without FBI interference, all Point to an elite terrorist org. not your average car bomb.
I was also very glad to know we didn't bomb afganistan. I don't want Afganies experiencing round 2 of this evil. But, If he gets away with it round 3, 4, 5, 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , ..... are coming.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

Again - people thought the same of the Oklahoma bombing right after that happened, and that turned out to be a homegrown American psychopath.

At this point, given that it's been more than twelve hours since the attack and we haven't summarily started wiping locales off the map, I'm hoping that there are enough people with restraint to wait for concrete evidence rather than the circumstantial evidence that is available to the public. Unfortunately, the US has more than just one 'foe'. It's entirely possible that one of them is responsible.

As to additional 'rounds' if BinLaden isn't snuffed - do you think that summarily dispatching him won't inspire countless others to emulate his actions? I stand by my assertion that any 'removal' of person or persons needs to be an international act. While it'll still get blamed on the US and Israel regardless, it'll also make legitimate nations leery of supporting this kind of activity - moreso if a conviction also results in economic sanctions against the sheltering nation.

But NOTHING should be done as far as 'punishment' or 'retribution' until we know beyond a shadow of a doubt (that being our requirement for conviction) precisely who is responsible. This will take time to gather the needed evidence, and time for a trial to establish absolute culpability.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM

Whoa! Don says, "If Osma Bin Laden is responsible he must be brought before an Islamic court?" And you, Spaw, agree?

Whassamatta you folks? If he is responsible, he should be brought before a court in the United States (if he survives capture)! What the hell has an Islamic court got to do with his masterminding a crime committed in the United States?

'Splain, please!

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM

DJH, you really don't need to be a member of an elite terrorist org. to syncronize watches or read an airline schedule. A 12 year old could do it. And the FBI isn't all-seeing or all-knowing. Don't broadcast your plans, and they're unlikely to know about them. This could be ANYONE. People in general are pretty stupid, but give them SOME credit.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:06 AM

"People in general are pretty stupid?"

Lepus, sometimes you astound me. That's a pretty "general" statement, isn't it?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM

I Have never agreed with Doug R before , Quite Frankly , it frightens me , but, If consequence does not enter into the picture the WORLD is a lost cause.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM

DougR, I think the point they're making is that if he were offed by the US, (Military or courts) some people would regard him as a hero & martyr, killed by "the enemy" and might seek to emulate him.
If however, he were executed under Islammic law for the murder of innocents, it would portray his activities in a very different light to young Palastininans etc.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:16 AM

Doug: Huh? Not really. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:16 AM

Besides, who has time for bombing the crap out of anyone at the moment?

We could be standing at the brink of World War III if retaliation is taken against anyone. We may even be teetering on the edge now because sure as eggs is eggs, the Western world is not going to take this lying down.

But as the UK has just discovered, it can take a very long time for justice to be served, and any one of a thousand little incidents can prevent it ever happening. The Lockerbie bomber may have been traced earlier, or it may never have happened at all if a security alert had been called when the padlock to the baggage store was found forced. The security guard reported it, and it was ignored. But regardless of that, the bomber was sheltered and harboured. As long as there are people willing to 'lay down their lives in the fight for justice >as they see it<', there will be acts of terrorism. And as long as there are people out there who would punish the prime suspect before any proof is found, there will be the threat of an all out military action, with the deadliest of consequences. And as long as there are people out there who insist on posting seditious comments and purile remarks, there will be the seeds of war.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM

That does bring up a point - what would happen if this were found to have been a four person conspiracy? What if every member of it died when the plane they hijacked hit?

Evidence is needed. Any action or planning taken with the lack of proof is foolish at best, terminally dangerous at worst.

And as to the 'court' that this is taken to - that will have to be determined by the source of the attack. If (conjecture here) the attack were perpetrated by Libya with the full participation of Khadaffi, then it would be correct to try him in the full UN council for committing a wanton act of war. If it were a foreign national acting in capacity of terrorist, then it's up to the US and the rest of the international community to reach a decision acceptable to all nations involved.

Realize also that there's a very real chance that the perpetrators (if they still live and survive to stand trial) will not be tried in an American court. MANY nations, allies and otherwise, have of recent years declined extradition requests due to the likelihood of a death penalty sentence being sought. It may turn out that the best possible solution will end up being an international tribunal or similar apparatus.

Again, this IS all speculation. International affairs are notoriously inconsistent, and anything may change with little notice.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:28 AM

Wasn't it [getting back to music---] Tommy Sands who had a line something like--"an eye for an eye--till everyone is blind"?


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

I have heard a news report that apparently several passengers on different planes made phone calls before the planes went down, with a lot of detailed description of the situation and the hijackers. This will give the FBI and whoever else something to start an investigation with. I think we need to await developments before possibly retaliating against the wrong person, group or country. I am not really up for World War III.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:47 AM

I am and have always been with Melanie "I aint Really up for WW III". But , when the Truth bares out that he is responsible , What would be appropriate? He has to Die. If he lives , the human race will extinct itself. The destructive power of the 'disatisfied' (Monsters) will have found a captive audience in the form of the global community.
On a side bar , who doesn't think the Palestinians signed their death warrant by dancing in the streets? I felt they were the victims , until today , now I gotta say I care a little less. Watch if a complete lack of sympathy isnt a brutal, wrong, downfall of this bellegered people.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:52 AM

As somebody on Tuesday's news said, "When Pearl Harbor was bombed, the attackers left their return address. Today's attackers didn't."

So far, it's all speculation. There are several perfectly reasonable scenarios and probably a whole bunch of possible ones (maybe even including the real one) that no one has even thought of. A popular vote would undoubtedly come up with Osama bin Laden. That would be my vote. But Truth is not determined by popular vote.

A very good movie from the Forties comes to mind: "The Ox Bow Incident." It's about a lynching. Anybody seen it?

Before we decide who needs to be offed, let's wait till we know something.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:58 AM

"The Palestinians" weren't dancing in the streets, DJH. SOME Palestinians were dancing in the streets. I do agree that those images will hurt the Palestinian cause in the US, however, which is unfortunate. I know many people who were really starting to understand and sympathize with the Palestinians, but who, like you, have now changed their minds.

But remember, we hope that other nations won't judge OUR country on the actions of, say, the Klan. It would be unfair of us to judge other nations in that way, don't you think?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:01 AM

Exactly, Don.

At such time that the perpetrators have been identified and convicted, then it becomes an issue of the punishment. Note that there very well may NOT be capital punishment in this matter... regardless of your personal beliefs regarding the death penalty, it IS a matter that several of the member nations of the UN frown upon, and have in the past refused to turn over a suspect unless the US would guarantee that the death penalty would not be sought.

Regardless of WHO is responsible, it's still a matter that will hopefully be handled with great delicacy. A delicate hand might be able to acheive some good out of the sacrifice of the unknown thousands who died, whereas a clumsy slash of the executioner's axe may cause exponentially greater losses later.

I understand that this close to the actual destruction it's difficult to be objective. The first reaction of many people is to find and kill the perpetrators as quickly as possible, preferably as messily as possible. In this case, it'd be giving immortality to a person and cause (regardless of who is responsible) that they'd never have achieved had rational thought prevailed.

Let the responsible rot in prison. Let them and their followers see that while we won't suffer the monstrous to walk the earth without retribution, we also will refuse to take from them - regardless of provocation - what they so wantonly took from so many others.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: heric
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:18 AM

Ethnic hatred is a real risk and clearly undesirable. We can't be arguing about that. (Any statements in that vein will be retracted when emotions clear.) Another good movie that comes to mind is A Bad Day in Black Rock (Spencer Tracy.)

Does anyone think that anyone should be punished for being a suspect, or are you all ranting at shadows?

Those of you that would forsake all violence even in the face of extreme violence are on a higher plane (I mean that in all sincerity.) But you can't help in the immediate decisionmaking required in this uncivil world. Politics is a practical business.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:23 AM

The UN?
Someone commits an act of war on OUR nation and we must ask the UN if it's ok to go after them?
This is not the business of the international community, the UN, or anyone but the American people. Our country was attacked and it is our right to seek out and punish those responsible.
OUR right; NOT the UN.

troll


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:21 AM

More than likely it was Bin Laden who masterminded this. However, let's be sure before we expand the war by vaporizing an innocent country. When I was a boy during WW2, we had a bakery run by a man named Derksen. Some of the locals boycotted him because he sounded "German" He was actually of Norwiegen descent. This is ignorance in action.

When I was a fisheries Warden for the state of Maine, there were many cases of misplaced "justice". Lobsterman A and lobsterman B had no use for each other, so, they engaged in destroying the other guys traps. All this time, lobsterman C who hated both of them stood back, kept his mouth shut, destroyed the traps of BOTH A and B and smiled as they tore each other to pieces.

As Goethe' said, "There is nothing as scary as ignorance in action"


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:35 AM

I posted this elsewhere, but I thought I'd copy it here and see if it makes sense to anyone.

I know this is the hardest possible time to think about these things, but maybe it is also the best possible time. I saw pictures of Palestinians celebrating in the streets and it sickened me.

And then I thought of something. What if things had been different? What if a civilian target in, for example, Iraq had been hit by terrorists causing devestation on a similar scale? Though most of us would not be rejoicing in the streets, how many of us would be (privately or publically) saying that it was a good thing, that Iraq had it coming etc.... One of the main points in the media has been that if it was Bin Laden, then targets in Afghanistan should be justifiably hit if they are sheltering them. In the alternate scenario, I find it hard to imagine that any terrorist group aimed at Iraq or other "rogue" Arab states would not be backed in some way by the American (and other western) government. Would then retaliatory strikes be justified against the US?

In my view, the dictum that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has prevailed for too long in the west. We have propped up corrupt violent dictatorships in other countries in the past because it suited our political ends (quite often in the past support was given to anyone in the past who kept out communist governments, no matter how horrendous their means).

It's a hard thing to think about, but maybe that means we should be thinking about it.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: nutty
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:59 AM

I may get shot down for expressing these opinions but I think that the terrorists are being credited with far more thought and planning than actually was the case >>>>>>
I think that it was just pure luck on the part of the terrorists that they pulled off such a feat . I don't believe they ever expected too ......... that , IMO ,is why there were two plane attacks on Manhattan ... one would have made just as much impact

Imagine this scenario
Terrorists identify 3 targets that would equally strike fear in the people of the United States if any one of them were attacked
1) The World Trade Building ...... A damaged and unstable 110 storey skyscraper would cripple the centre of Manhattan for months (I do not believe that it/they were ever expected to collapse)
2) The Pentagon ..... a strike at the heart of US Military might would again show how vulnerable America was.(I believe this went as planned)
3) Camp David .... an attack here would again show US vulnerability

Four planes were hijacked because the terrorists did not expect to be so successful ....hence the two attacks in Manhatten
The Camp David attack failed either because the terrorists failed to control the plane or the air crew did not allow the hijack to happen

Bin Ladden followers MAY have been responsible but there were many other groups who hated the US enough to also have hatched such a plan ..... BUT .....as I said before ..... I do not believe that slaughter on this scale was ever envisaged.

IMO,the only positive aspect of the day was that a group of fanatics killed themselves


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:03 AM

Unconfirmed, admittedly: but the BBC reports that the Taleban have offered to extradite Osama bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DonMeixner
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:08 AM

In the reality of law this was not an act of war altho' I don't know what else to call it. This was civilians attacking civilians. There are no armies with symbols on the wings of bombers. They are covert little cadres of terrorists attacking from hiding.

My mind is to attack Afghanistan and with fuel-air bombs carpet the area until it melts into glass. But we would create an army of martyrs that we could never defeat. I feel that if we just killed Bin Laddin we would do the same.

Thats why I am in favor of trial under his own laws. Is it possible or just wishfdul thinking? Probably just wishful thinking. But we must act and we must be decisive and surgical and complete. But we must not be wrong.

Don


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:12 AM

Guys... I am down here in lower manhattan, and for all the fellows out their calling for blood, becasue the guy next to you goes nuts, the intelligent thing to do ... is not to go nuts yourself... that just makes for more insanity. Pray for peace, and more importantly make peace. One young fellow my wife and I ran into, said, "I'm no capitolist, but if we want to really destroy the guys who did this, send them American trade goods, not bombs, get them addicted to American culture..." seems like a good solution, when you see them sucking down the Pepsi in Ho Chi Mein City.
Another poor fellow was crying, had just come up from the path train, at the trade center, when it began to rain boddies. Five landed at his feet, he said, "Like apples exploding on the sidewalk..." wishing this insanity on any other prople wont stop it from happening again. Torturing the fellow we believe did this, makes us him. Let's be the grownups.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:12 AM

Worse than Hiroshima or Dresden, DJH? Why is that? Because they were only Nips and Krauts? Because they were not innocent cililians? Because we won the war? Unfair of me to say it I know as I have many American friends who DON'T think like that but I am afraid that is the way you are coming across. Whether I agree or disagree with your sentiments is irrelevant. What I take exception to is your assumptive right to decide who should live and who should die. But, unlike you I suspect, I will probably forgive you.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:01 AM

Wonderful- people "praying for revenge"---
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in
arms,the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the
drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the
bunched firecrackers hissing and sputtering; on every hand and far down
the receding and fading spreads of roofs and balconies a fluttering
wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched
down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers
and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked
with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings
listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their
hearts and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of
applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the
pastors preached devotion to flag and country and invoked the God of
Battles, beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpouring of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.


It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that
ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness
straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal
safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.


Sunday morning came-next day the battalions would leave for the front; the
church was filled; the volunteers were there, their faces alight with material
dreams-visions of a stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing
charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping
smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender!-then home from the war, bronzed
heros, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the
volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors
and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of
honor, there to win for the flag or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths.
The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the
first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the
building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and
beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation -- "God the all-
terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!"
Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for
passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its
supplication was that an ever--merciful and benignant Father of us all
would watch over our noble young soldiers and aid, comfort, and
encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in His
mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody
onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -


An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the
main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe
that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy
cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to
ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent
way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there,
waiting.

With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued his
moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent
appeal,"Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God,
Father and Protector of our land and flag!"


The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the
startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he
surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes in which burned an
uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said

"I come from the Throne-bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words
smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no
attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd and grant
it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to
you its import-that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the
prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of-
except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken
thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two- one uttered, the other not. Both
have reached the ear of His Who hearth all supplications, the spoken and
the unspoken. Ponder this-keep it in mind. If you beseech a blessing upon
yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at
the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which
needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some
neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer-the uttered part of it. I am
commissioned by God to put into words the other part of it-that part which
the pastor, and also you in your hearts, fervently prayed silently. And
ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these
words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. The whole
of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations
were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for
many unmentioned results which follow victory-must follow it, cannot help
but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God the Father fell also the
unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle-
be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet
peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to
tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their
smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the
thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain;
help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to
wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us
to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the
wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the
sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn
with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it-for
our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives,
protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way
with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!
We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who
is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid
with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause)

"Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the
Most High waits."

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.



-Mark Twain


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM

Thank you, Larry, for a voice of reason amidst the horror.

Torturing the fellow we believe did this, makes us him. Let's be the grownups. Hear, hear.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:39 AM

Thanks Greg...and I am glad you posted all of it. The War Prayer came to my mind too when I watched the news program talking to those "praying for revenge." A hundred years and we still can't see it. Brilliant man Clements......or at least a thinking man. We seem to still be in short supply of them. Thanks again.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM

That is wonderful, Greg. Thanks for the patience and time it must have taken to key it all in. Not a bad lad, old Sam. C. was he?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:35 AM

Only Binladdin?

Seems to me this ought to lead to a world-wide effort to destroy terrorist training camps and punish those who willingly suffer their presence and solicit funds for them.

Not just Binladdin. Not just Islamic anti-American terrorists. All terrorists.

Here in Canada, the FLQ lost its support in Quebec when two terrorist cells each deliberately murdered a kidnap victim. They had gone too far. Let us hope that enormity of this crime turns the tide of Arabic public opinion against terrorism.

In the United States, Irish bars were (are still are?) able to get away with collecting money for the IRA. Rich people were allowed to send money to the Contras in Central America. In Canada, we let Tamil refugees into the country, some of whom extort/cajole money from other Tamils, money that goes to support an ongoing conflict in Sri Lanka. We probably let some or all of the World Trade Center bombers into Canada, from whence they traveled through Maine to Boston. I believe a lot more can be done to fight terrorism, with only minor curtailment of our liberties. We can't make the world completely safe, but we can do a lot better.

Terrorism, not just Binladdin, has got to be fought.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:31 PM

I fail to see the point, we have to have what proof that Binladdin attacked us? Why would that be? Lets assume for a moment, a brief moment, that he was out singing "We are the World" with Michael Jackson when all this happened. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAS THIS MAN KILLED!

How many more will die because of him?

The next attack, when only a couple hundred die, are you going to then say, ok.. now we can take him.

I'm not saying Binladdin did this, No one knows. I think this needs to be a wakeup call to many countires that Terrorists and the contries that harbor them should NOT be handled with delicate gloves. I am not for the carpet bombing of a country, there are other ways to force them into the open. But this is lunacy, "we can't prove he did it" He has claimed credit for several other bombings, and still lives, still plans, still plots.

And for just a moment, one moment, imagine his reaction when he heard what happened. Do you think he mourned the death of the men, women and children that lived in terror before impact? What do you think he did? Do you suppose he smiled, celebrated, or maybe was envious that he didn't do it first.

Spare that man, and he will kill others again, and again, and again. And when the next plane goes down, will you then say, "maybe we should have taken him down earlier."

I am filled with unbelievable rage over what has happened to this country. It took me hours to stop wishing that we could turn the middle-east into a big glass sheet. The thought was wrong, purly ignorant, and filled with a lust for revenge. As I calmed, I found myself careful with my thoughts, not wanting the innocent to die. But make no mistake, Binladdin is no innocent man whether this was his doing or not. I pray that in time I can bring myself to forgive myself for the horrific thoughts I have had. I am a pacifist for the most part, and wishing the death of so many as I watched people celebrate the deaths of tens of thousands is more then I could handle.

Maybe in time I will continue to calm, and think more through why we should not go after the terrorist training camps, and the groups that operate while hiding behind the innocent people of a country. But for now, I can only hope that Binladdin dies, alone, dishonored, and rots in hell... not because I think he was behind this act. But because he was behind others. All the while trying to understand why we should care that if he did this or not, since he has killed so many, and will do so again.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: annamill
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:37 PM

(tongue in cheek, but really meaning it)

Like the military, who punishes all in the squad for the actions of one. And the purpose, simple, the men in the squad keep each other in line.

Now, if we blew everyone who may have been involved away, everyone would think twice about doing such a thing again!

Ok, a bit much, your all right, we have to stop, find the group who did this awful thing and punish him severly!

Love, Annamill


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Rich McCarthy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:39 PM

I agree with Steve on this one.

Even if no particular person, persons or group is ever
identified as responsible, all terrorist groups that have
been responsible for violent activity should be
dismantled by direct or indirect action by ALL nations.
All fundraising activities that contribute to such terrorist groups should be stopped.

We owe it to the victims.
Having said this, I believe strongly that we-both Americans and and their friends in other countries- must not target innocent muslims- as a group or as individuals, either in North America or elsewhere.

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM

OK, so we don't want to make him a hero. After the next incident (and if he lives, there WILL be another) who's gonna tell some kid, "Hey hang in there dude, I know your Dad died but hey, at least we didn't make Bin Laddin a hero!"

I agree, we need to make sure we get to the bottm of this in terms of who is actually responsible, but, as soon as the information is available, the murderer must die.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM

So if bin Laden is identified as the guilty one, what leads you, Crazy Eddie, and others, to believe he would be found guilty by an Islamic court?

I am not advocating going after him unless it is proven that he is the mastermind behind this. But if he is, go after him and show no mercy.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:10 PM

I'm with ya DougR............

Frank


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Please
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Let's be rational here:

A.I thought that Bin laden's guilt has already been proven in terms of other acts of terrorism. We have every right to take him in custody for those acts as well as for being a suspect in yesterdays acts.

B.Retaliating against a nation is not going to lead to WWIII. We proved that with Desert Storm and many other epsiodes in which rogue nations have been punished. Some of the more extreme Muslim nations might preach a pan-Islam Jihad, but let's be brutally honest, it would mean getting the shit kicked out of them by a forced American/Israeli coalition. If they could actually do it, they wouldnt have done it.

C.Regarding killing Bin Laden. It is illogical to say that it is wrong to kill someone because it will only make him a martyr and someone else will take his place. That is like saying that we shouldn't execute a crime boss or gang leader because it will make him a hero. Such logic would make law enforcement impossible.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM

So if Bin Laddin is the guilty party, use some of his own medicine against him. He's a millionaire. There's already a paltry, by his standards, price on his head - $5 million ? Why not up the ante and use some of America's vaunted wealth, which he hates. Kick the ante up to a $billion or so. See if his comrades can resist that much, and don't put any more American lives at stake trying to reach him. You could probably get more people off the street to contribute to that right now, then do to United Way !


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:51 PM

Doug...

The reason I say that using the UN as the mediating source should this turn out to be an actual 'act of war' is to prevent it becoming a REAL war. In theory, that's what the UN is there for - to act as a mediating body between sovereign states in disagreements or conflicts. The US government may feel it has a "moral" right to pound whomever did this into small, bloody bits - but that is retaliation of the same nature as the attack against us, just dressed up as 'morally correct'. At the very least, other terrorist organizations would easily be able to use it as evidence that the US is 'evil' and step up their actions accordingly. At the very worst, it could escalate into open warfare.

By going 'through channels', the hope would be that at the very least the UN body would pressure the agressor to hand over those deemed responsible. It's entirely possible that the UN would even allow an expeditionary force to go in and take said agressor - it's happened before, though not with spectacular levels of success (but then again, the US ain't got such a hot record on that kind of expedition either).

I stand by my assertion that a blind, reflexive attack against whomever masterminded the attacks has a probability of causing more harm than good. We still don't know WHO did it, though. And until that is definitively established, any talk of retribution is just so much pissing into the wind.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM

It's easy enough saying "all terrorists" - but then we find someone who seems to be on our side. Bin Laden started out fighting the Russians with American support. I don't think there is any indication he has changed his views or his ethics much since then.

No government's got clean hands here.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:04 PM

SeanM: you have more faith in the U.N. than I do.

GuestPlease: I rarely agree with "guests" but I do agree with you. I think you got it right. ben Ladin HAS already been indited for terriorist crimes against America.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:23 PM

Well, I may indeed... but even with no faith, I'd still support the idea that the US government at least needs to TRY using 'normal channels'. Not to do so could easily send a message to the world that we really don't care about the UN or it's missions, and that while we'll happily make OTHER countries submit their disputes, we don't feel constrained to do so ourselves.

In related news, an article here is stating that there is evidence that the attack on the Pentagon building was initially meant for the White House, and towards the end of this article they surmise that the Camp David attack was brought down early by resistance from the passengers. Also at the end of the article is this quote:

Powell called for a global coalition to fight ``terrorism'', including NATO, Russia, China and also Muslim countries.

``We have to make sure that we go after terrorism and get it by its branch and root,'' he told a news conference.

A Pakistani newspaper said bin Laden had denied blame. ``The terrorist act is the action of some American group. I have nothing to do with it,'' it quoted him as saying.

So at the very least, it DOES look as if the government is considering using standard international channels, and also that Bin Laden is denying culpability. Though the attackers are (via evidence gathered at the crash sites and phone conversations from the hijacked planes) very likely Arab nationals (from the UAE possibly), this shows that there is STILL no concrete evidence as to who attacked us. Yes, it may be Bin Laden. But it may also not be.

And finally... I agree that Bin Laden should be prosectued for acts of terrorism in the past that he's been found responsible for and guilty of. I personally feel that he SHOULD be extradited and punished for his acts. However, in context of yesterday's attacks, unless he's found to be responsible for them as well, it's a cheap context to use the tragedy as an excuse to 'get him anyway, because he deserves it." Let him be punished for what he HAS done, rather than because "someone has to pay".

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Margo
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM

I disagree with you Larry. I think that the war on terrorism should be waged against all terrorist groups. Don't just go after bin laden. I think that securing the peace is not possible by doing nothing. Plus, I think that his millions should be confiscated and used to compensate families and the building owner. He can't do anything without his money.

I am a religious person. I believe that all war is not bad. There is a good fight. The commandment is (properly translated) thou shalt not commit murder. God knows that self defense is not murder. There will always be another terrorist, and that makes it all the more important to stand up to them and make it as difficult as possible for them to operate.

It is no sin to go after them. I think rather, it is a sin to NOT stand up to them. My 2 cents. Margo


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM

DJH - Everybody dies in their own good time. To wish death on others is not a wise course, karmically speaking. However, who am I to stand between you and you karma?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Lucius
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM

Thanks McGrath. It's important to remember that we made an unholy alliance with these terrorists when their focus was Reagan's "Evil Empire". No one has clean hands. I lost two dear friends--innocent except to be living under a regime of sabre rattlers that are the number one arms supplier to the world. I hope that someone will have the courage to stop this insanity and stand for peace.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Sad and Angry
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:17 PM

One of the first maxims we learn is 'understand your enemy' In this case I'm afraid it's impossible. I have first hand experience of living and working among Arab nationals in their lands, and I'm convinced that we will never understand their mindset. After more than 20 years out there I came to believe that our way of life will eventually be totally subjicated by Islam and I should think that within a couple of hundred years Everyone in the world will be a Moslem.

I think it's too late already. Unless.... this is to be the defining moment.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

Our way of life will eventually be totally subjicated by Islam and I should think that within a couple of hundred years. Everyone in the world will be a Moslem.

Know what that reminds me of? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Anti-semitism, but directed at Arabs instead of Jews. And that's a mindset that I really can never understand.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Sad but angry
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM

I certainly was not trying to be anti-semite. Nor to be anti-Arab And I agree with your sentiments regarding that. I was referring to what I consider to be the inevitability of our future. For all I know it may well be a good thing for us all and could well make the world a better place.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: AliUK
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:13 PM

what do the acrs of governments have to do with people. The UN is the focus of all western governments, all western governments re involved and all western peoples are threatened, the U.S. was just a symbolic act against the west because it sets itself up as the guardian of the west. Of course Bin Laden is responsible, whoever doubts that is being a candy ass. If the Taliban government is sincere in its apologies and denials it should offer him up to the west and he should face the justice he deserves. I lost a friend yesterday, a dear and sweet person who didn't mean any harm to anyone, but because she was american she suffered the "consequences". Shoot the buggers and bedamned, we're all damned anyway.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Margo
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM

AliUK, this was not a "symbolic act". It was mass murder. It was not simply to get attention or make a statement, it was to murder thousands of people (for whatever purpose).


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM

Sign me up as lead candy ass then. Last time I checked, the US still professed to believe in "innocent until proven guilty". Unless you've information that noone else has, they still have not found a 'guilty party' in this particular case.

My sincerest condolences for the loss of your friend, but how would it solve things to start killing more people without knowing you're actually killing the guilty ones? How would it feel if you killed everyone you felt was associated, then found out it was Americans trying to protest against the government? More importantly, how would giving the terrorists more martyrs to trump around for their cause be any better than just locking them away for the remainder of their life/lives?

As to that particular mindset - also remember that it's not JUST an Arab thing to feel that dying for the cause is a holy or justified act. There've been several cases of it in pretty much every conflict I can think of - Japanese Kamikaze pilots in WWII, Irish bombers willing to die for the cause - we even glorify an American for announcing "Give me liberty, or give me death". Suicidal patriotism isn't a foreign concept unfortunately.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:26 AM

SeanM: I don't think anyone is proposing mass destruction against ben Laden or anyone else unless there is proof. If there is, there won't be a hole deep enough for the guilty party to hide in, however.

I'm sure everyone is aware that the cable news channels are projecting that the U. S. may have suffered 20,000 casulties as a result of the Terrorist's cowardly attack. Can you comprehend what that would mean to your country?

Those of you who suggest turning the cheek, I just hope you, someday, don't find yourselves in a location targeted by the people that planned and executed this crime against our country.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM

In my case, it's the difference between 'turn the other cheek' and 'blindly persecute suspects'. I've been seeing FAR too much of the 'revenge over justice' mindset lately, and it frightens me.

When the guilty parties are revealed and convicted, I sincerely hope they're prosecuted to the full extent of whatever body tries them. But as much as I believe that they should be punished, I also believe that accusing ANYONE without significant evidence is nearly a crime in itself. Given the current atmosphere, it's highly likely that someone singled out (with or without evidence) is going to be hurt.

I guess my point is - acting out of anger will only create more anger, and quite likely in places it had not been before. Acting with reserve will still hopefully result in justice being done - but without creating a new legion of terrorists to continue the work that the recent ones started, and without creating a state of open warfare where still MORE innocents will die.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:45 AM

You can be sure that the perpetrators of this act will be hunted down and dealt with in some way. A few hundred people can apparently be overlooked to some extent, but thousands of people, as well as the total destruction of the world's economic nerve center, will absolutely prompt some kind of response that's going to involve more dead people. With any luck it will be done delicately enough "through channels", as Sean suggests. Now they are talking to Pakistan, which is a nuclear power. I am still not up for World War III.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:00 AM

None of us are Melani. But I, for one, do not intend to lick bin Ladens boots or roll over and play dead for some fanatic to prevent it.
Pakistan has one or two fairly primative nuclear devices and the US has enough to turn their whole country into a bubbling lake of glass and they know it. There will be no nuclear war. Mostly there will be sabre-rattling.
It plays well with the constituents.

troll


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:20 AM

Thanks, Troll. That's actually sort of reassuring, in a perverted sort of way. I guess I'm enough of an arrogant American to hope that if we go to war, it will be with some country we can beat the crap out of. I am not in favor of the suckers getting away with this or licking anybody's boots. I just worry that it doesn't get so out of hand that we all end up glowing in the dark.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM

Melani: I think when most of us think of war, we think of it as it was during WWII, Korea, or Viet Nam. I doubt there will be another war like those. A war against terriorism will be highly technical, involving aircraft, and smaller hit and run elements of air infantry. That's my opinion at least. I don't think there will be anymore "Battles of the Bulge," or "D-Days," in other words. Neither do I (IMO) forsee the need for a "Draft."

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: marty D
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:54 AM

Without TV we'd have never seen that horrid woman dancing and clucking, or those young assholes shooting their guns in the air as the news of the massacre reached them.

Without TV we wouldn't have that vision of Bin Laden and his revolting smirk.

Without TV we'd never have seen that sickening spectacle of Sadam Hussein and the scared little boy.

Without TV we'd never have watched (our friends) the Chinese, crush dissent in Tiennamin Square.

These images are burned on my consciousness forever, and it makes me very sad. I don't WANT to think that whole races and countries can be 'sound bited' into one TV image.

I wonder what TV images help fuel their hate against US?

My guess is that many of the people who find Dubya so superficial and in over his head are getting a good part of that image simply because he looks so hesitant and bumbling on TV.

Just rambling. But I really DO think that the tube has colored our political views forever, and definitely not in a way that will help the human race survive.

marty


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:07 AM

I agree that the country needs to be sure that in fact Bin Lannid was the mastermind. And I agree that if killed, the mastermind will be given Martyr Status. But I'll tell you this, I'd rather himbe a dead martyr than a living hero. Leaving whoever it is around to continue to hate and plan will doom us to living through it again.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:09 AM

I agree that the country needs to be sure that in fact Bin Laddin was the mastermind. And I agree that if killed, the mastermind will be given Martyr Status. But I'll tell you this, I'd rather himbe a dead martyr than a living hero. Leaving whoever it is around to continue to hate and plan will doom us to living through it again.

Frank


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: guinnesschik
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

Bib Laden DID make threats against against the USA. Perhaps he should be made an example. His "supposed" innocence is more ridiculous than his "imagined" guilt. Find him, try him in the USA, and make of him an example.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:48 PM

Hi Margo, and all others who say war is the answer... Well... It has not worked yet, and we have been trying it for thousands of years. What we have not tried is peace. It is rare I use words like I am going to, so if little ones are reading this, understand it is a unique day... but I remember, as a young Quaker hearing someone say, killing for peace is like fucking for chastity. Let's TRY and become sane. I am very very tired of the fostering of mental illness by the (not our) leaders. Margo, come here, where we are, here in downtown New York... it has to end now. Pray for peace. Work for justice. Use your head, come with us out of the stone age, (actually likly a more peaceable time than now!) Larry


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:09 PM

Larry: War hasn't worked? Then why aren't we all speaking German or Japanese as our native language? :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Well one may ask why IG Farbin is still alive and sinning? Nazism did not die in 1947. There are now walled ghettos being built in Czech Republic for Roma... The world turned away when Spain went facist... had they responded, in so many ways, but the world waited until there was no responce but war, and then kept trading with facists and kept doing so through and after the war. lets grow up already, Larry


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:15 PM

At the advice of the Red Cross I'm waiting till a clinic on next Thursday to give blood. InOBU, I'm doing my best to hold everyone in the light. I wish that the voices yelling for more would stop. Its an addiction, "Just one more puff and then I'll quit!" "Just one more big blow for whatever and then we can have peace." I'm glad to hear your voice again on this forum, you and Little Hawk are gentler and more eloquent in your writing than my hot headedness.

Peace and a return to laughter.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM

Bless you Soph. anyone who thinks one can compair this to fighting a nation, with cities and leaders, well, they should come to this planet. Read about the history of the mid east, they have been killing each other for centries each trying to win. Coptic Egyptians accross the stree from me, are praying for peace, the owner of that restaurant had his grandfather killed thirty years ago by this hatred... don't take my word for it, READ!!! Go to Isreal and LOOK Bombs wont do it!!!!!!!!!!Cheers, Larry Flash... they are in the process of taking out more folks right this minute, 6:20 pm NY! Pray for success!


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM

Oh, in these days where take out means different things to different people... take out folks from the wreakage! survivors!...


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:53 PM

I'm not exactly "fed up" but I am emotionally exhausted and tired of the war-mongering, hate mongering, trolling and flaming. Not only here on Mudcat, but also in the media.

I have heard all the news reports and recieved all the e mails I want on the subject for a few days-- I need space to think and I can't do that when the subject is worn out until we have hard news. I am tired of hash and re-hash just for something to say.

I am tired of being emotionally and visually assaulted by something I have done everything I can do about. If you don't hear much from me for a few days, go look in the Lyr Req threads. That is where I will be. Not in any of these others.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:58 AM

You're right, Larry. Nazism died in April, 1945, not 1947.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:08 AM

Doug;

Come out to Orange County, California some time. You'll find many young men willing to dispute the 'death' of Naziism with you quite violently. I've run afoul of them once or twice at concerts.

Are the Nazis as a governmental force gone? I'd say 'mostly' but not 'entirely'. The right wing party in Germany has spawned factions embracing the whole of Hitler's regime, and expanding it even farther. Around the world, other groups may not be 'nazi' in name, but in spirit they're as close as could be.

No, they're not gone. As much as could be wished, it's an infection that it doesn't seem can be cured.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 04:10 AM

I haven't been Back since early posts, phone line problem. But I have to say to little Hawk , you are not a pacifist if you fear Karmic retribution when it comes to vanquishing the Devil himself (metaphorically speaking), If that is why you would not act it is cowardice not pacifism.
The idea that he would be a martyr as reason to let him continue, he will continue, is also cowardice and exactly what he hopes to accomplish.
Like I said right up front , I am not talking about revenge here.I am a pacifist. Fortunately I believe the goverment will see to his demise. Thank God.
I really don't understand some people's philosophy here it sounds like psuedo-pacifism to me. The Devil metaphor isn't relinquished purely to the realm of metaphor. The Devil did visit NYC by way of that evil man and his minions, and he will visit many times more world wide if men who would and HAVE!!! done such things are permitted to live, a luxury their victims no longer have.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM

A number of people have suggested that the problem will not be solved until we look at the reasons these guys were willing to kill themselves as well as thousands of others. There have been people living in squalid refugee camps for over 50 years now. I hear about terrorism in Israel, followed by the Israeli army bulldozing houses and killing children caught in sprays of machine gun fire. Clearly that approach is not working, but the Palestinians are also pretty intractable. At the risk of offending my husband's Iraeli relatives, I am beginning to think maybe the UN should go in there and kick both their butts and force them to behave. The whole situation totally sucks, and it will never end until the fanatics on both sides are dealt with.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Nonviolent Resistance
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:12 PM

A lot of people have said that the U.S. should pursue nonviolent means to deal with terrorism. However, has anyone ever considered that the goals of most terrorist organizations would be better served thru nonviolent resistance or political efforts. It worked in India and for African-Americans in the U.S. Even Irish independence was more of an outcome of political efforts than armed conflict. If the Palestinians (or some of them) had pursued such channels from the beginning instead of machine gunning children, they would have achieved many of their goals decades ago. I realize that nonviolence requires a painful amount of patience, but it is much less painful than whipping the most powerful nation on earth into a homocidal frenzy.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:43 PM

Query: Assuming Bin Laden "must die," who is volunteering to go find him? I'm certainly in favor of taking strong steps to destroy his organization. That's a hard and complicated job. I very much doubt it can be done by waging "war." I read letters to the editor in WSJ, saying we should bomb, among other things, Afganistan, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. I spoke last night to a friend who is usually rational. He mentioned all the offenses the Taliban had committed against women, Buddhist art works, etc., and proposed we "bomb Afghanistan back into the stone age." A truly self defeating idea.

Bringing in Mr. Bin Laden would require sending in the infantry and conquering every inch of Afghanistan - assuming he didn't see the infantry coming and skip across the border. Anyone think that is worth the lives of (say) 50-60 thousand men? Remember, the Soviet Union tried that, and the Soviet Union is no more.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,Good Point
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM

The Afghans gave the British army hell when the latter was the best in the world. They held out against the Russians for seven years even though the Russians were operating on far fewer restrictions than the U.S. in Vietam. So, it is true that we should think a lot before starting a ground war. Likewise, a few rockets or air strikes are token efforts. However, sustained air strikes against MILITARY targets in conjunction with hit-and-run raids by Airborne troops might get the point across.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

Yes, but what point? WE may think we're making a stand that 'terrorism will not be tolerated. THEY on the other hand, given past reactions, would likely take the view that the US is being high handed and imperialistic, enforcing US standards on Muslim countries, and that any methods possible to curb US aggression are to be lauded.

Violence IS NOT THE ANSWER. WAR IS NOT EITHER.

Are we a civilized nation, or a nation willing to act in the tradition of those terrorists we're claiming to despise by obliterating people who MAY NOT HAVE DONE ANYTHING?

The warmongering is getting truly frightening. The local paper here carried the huge banner headline "TARGET: BIN LADEN". It wasn't until you got into the back of the story, buried at the rear of the section, that the story ever mentioned that Bin Laden is denying responsibility, and that while some of the hijackers had 'ties' to his organization, there apparently is also a link to an unnamed German radical organization. Further, every effort was taken to paint Bin Laden as an independent terrorist, dedicated to destroying the US through his entire life - it'd apparently confuse the populace to mention that we trained him, gave him truckloads of money and weapons, and pointed him at the USSR in the past.

Again - he IS wanted for planning other attacks against the US and other nations. He HAS claimed responsibility for those. There's a decent chance that he will be found to be behind the NY attacks as well. But he has NOT been charged with this, beyond the hysteria that the public is being whipped into. By all means - he should be punished for his actions. But only the ones that he's been proven to have been behind.

Until proof is delivered that he was or was not behind the NY attacks, any talk of 'revenge' against him for those attacks is premature and on the same level as the terrorist mentality that started it. We just happen to have the 'moral high ground' and an army big enough to pretty much do whatever we want.

WAIT FOR PROOF. WAIT FOR JUSTICE, NOT BLIND REVENGE.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:25 PM

You kno fellows, I say again, we let armies try and solve the problem of war, and it did not work. Many more people have nightmares about lawyers than they do about soldiers. Let us go in and go after the money, Instead of Afganistan, let lawyers go after the Swiss (or where ever these fellows keep their money )and Benlaudin's dough ray me. No bucks no bang. Larry


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

Good point, InObu


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Inobu, Colin Powell has made statements that they will act in the manner you suggested, cutting off the cash. I agree whole heartedly. I hope it goes a long way to silencing the guns, sooner.

A serious question to those who think killing the monsters is not the answer. How many years until your turning the other cheek leads to the Bin Ladens of the world seeing the error of their ways? How many deaths will it take till THEY know too many people have died? Be Honest.
If you seriously believe they will learn their lesson in a generation or 3, Is it a service to humanity to permit the learning experience?
in the mean time, Will the hate spread like fungus on the lakes of tears? Will their methods become the "norm"?
Would you have employed pacifism against Hitler? Would it have worked?
Like I said earlier , it is Pseudo-pacifism. Very Occasionally the Humane thing to do is FIGHT. This is one of those times.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:21 PM

OK, DJH - fight against whom?

It's been said before, but I'll say it here again - you can't solve the problem of terrorism by shooting people. Martyrdom breeds more who will follow them, hoping to be martyrd themselves.

Comparing the terrorists to Hitler doesn't hold water with me - Hitler launched a well orchestrated sustained military campaign against Europe. The genocide came AFTER the fact in that case. Terrorists launch individual attacks on mostly civilian targets, and rarely are publicly known.

And again - how is prosecuting via trial through normal international channels 'turning the other cheek'? I've seen very little "Oh, those adorable terrorist scamps, let's give them a nickle and hope they go away" from ANYONE on this site, or for that matter, from anyone I've spoken or interacted with. From what I've seen on the 'cat, the closest to pure pacifism is what Larry and others (myself included) have said - that violence is not the answer, that it could seriously exacerbate the problem, and that other, non-violent methods would have a MUCH better chance of bringing to an end the vicious circle that violence creates.

And again - unless you've access to evidence that noone else seems to have, Bin Laden is STILL innocent until proven guilty. It's an American tradition, y'know.

M


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:24 PM

Cut off his support. Cut off his funds. Since he seems to be in the mountains of Afganistan, and the Taliban seems to be protecting him, seal off the country.
Nothing goes in; nothing goes out. Build a wall and patrol it constantly. Shoot down any plane that tries to overfly the country. Raise the bounty to 50 million.
When the Taliban gets hungry enough, they'll hand him over.
Innocent people will die you say?
They are dieing now.
The "World" will not approve?
Your point is?
If we are going to go after bin Laden, we should do so with a plan that ensures the minimum loss of American lives. War won't do that, but a plan similar to that which I have sketched here could.

troll


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:29 PM

Hi DJH, I don't believe in turning the other cheek to benlaudin, if he did this. However, if one goes after him with the army, we have seen in Israel's case, how that has not been effective. On the other hand, agreeing with Troll, though, not by the same tactics, one can acctualy isolate Afganistan and benlaudin, in much more effective ways without having to shoot down planes, by international agreement to seize those palnes and any other accetts that leave the country... but after one cuts the accetts down to size one can deal with benlaudin in court the way the world is not putting malosavich on trial. Cheers, and all the best, Larry


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: Melani
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:11 PM

"Bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age" is, unfortunately, a pretty short trip. Removing the Taliban from the face of the earth would be a blessing. I can't imagine that they would have any more regard for the suffering of the Afghani people than Saddam has had for the Iraqis. They have already created great suffering all by themselves. I still regret that Schwarzkopf didn't go on into Baghdad when he had the chance, though I guess we'd probably still be occupying the place if he had.

I'm not really sure what I'm suggesting here, but it doesn't seem like anybody has done the correct thing yet. I am very concerned over the idea of religious fanatics wanting to force people to do it their way or die. I am also very reluctant to display an American flag, not because of any negative feelings about it, but because I'm afraid of seeming to jump on some simplistic bandwagon howling for revenge. It's been shown over and over throughout the centuries that a land invasion of Afghanistan is not going to work. And besides, are they the ones who sponsored this, or are they too busy oppressing their own people?

Then we have Israel, also being run as a theocracy. That also makes me very uneasy, because it seems that if your view is that "my way is the only right way" there will never be any room for compromise.

So I actually have visions of the UN kicking butt for real, forcing all the fanatics to behave, but that probably won't happen either. Arrrggghhh.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: GUEST,faswilli2
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM

Go ahead and show your flag Melani. If you don't show it for the good old USA, then show it as an expression of comradship for the rescuers, the fireman and the victims in NYC. Bin Laden will die, if not for this , for the other crimes is has committed and taken responsiblity for. Other terrorists will also be brought to justice and those that sponsor them. Frankly, it is about time. This was a wakeup call for the civilized world to act. We have given peace a chance over and over and the US and other "first world" countries have been stepped on time and again. This was an act of war. And don't think this is a holy war. This is not a religious act .. Islam does not advocate this. Some fanatical muslims have successfully incorporated this "doctrine" into their followers. This war won't result in massive bombing but will instead be selective strikes, incursions, and yes, assasinations that should hve taken place long ago.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: gus C
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM

All 19 hijackers have been linked to Bin Laden , wait until there is proof?
Mayrterdom !!! your right we can't make him a marytr, leave him to continue his lifes work.
I am all for getting him peacably handed over, it aint gonna happen, but, if it were, wonderful.But they would also have to hand over all his cronies and the Taliban officials who harbored and supported the terrorists.


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Subject: RE: Binladdin Must Die
From: SeanM
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:55 AM

"Linked to" and "Under orders from" are two entirely different worlds. By the logic that if someone is 'linked to' Bin Laden they are guilty or vice versa, George Bush is guilty - he's a one time member of the CIA, the organization that set Bin Laden up as a power to begin with.

Bin Laden runs terrorist training camps - trying to find terrorists without some link to him is like trying to find South American dictators without links to the SOA (another fine US export).

But he has admitted to that. Again - and again, and again and again... why blame something on him before it's proven when he's involved when there are so many other acts that he's admitted to? Once more - he may be behind the NY attack, but until it's proven, using that as a rationale to launch open warfare against him (and/or Afghanistan) is putrid reasoning. It's like insisting without evidence that a mass murderer is also a virgin sacrificing satanist - what, you weren't ready to accept him as being guilty unless he's blown up into a mythical demon?

And another time around the mulberry bush on this one too. Last time, as at this point you're not going to listen to what I have to say and I can't conceivably see your viewpoint as anything but barbaric: He can be punished without warfare, without killing, and without giving him and his ilk more reason than ever to step up attacks. In the face of the fact that pretty much every government (with the exception of Iraq and Jerry Falwell, apparently) agrees that this was a heinous crime and that the perpetrators need to be punished, it needs to be understood that a large portion of the world governments that we consider allies do NOT support capital punishment and would likely not support any attempts to kill the perpetrators. Insisting on his death is not only barbaric, it's counterproductive to actually punishing him.

Unless you really DO think that we need to be seen as vigilantes.

M

No more on this thread. It's rhetoric from two diametrically opposed positions.


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