Fly the FLAG!!!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

Yes McGrath I agree that crusade is a dangerous word, and I will avoid using it. It would be wise for ALL Americans NOT to use this word in expressing patriotism.

The War is now on OUR SOIL not THERE'S. By expressing it domestically we most certainly escalate an already dangerous domestic terrorist network.

There is a conservative estimate by the FBI of 200 Islamic Terrorists on U.S. soil. I would not be surprised the actual number is closer to 1000. They could poison our water, crops etc.

This NEW WAR is going to be VERY VERY VERY Ugly!

And these people will gladly DIE for their beliefs!

Be proud, but careful in what you say!

Dewey

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:37 AM

This is when flag waving becomes frightening to me...

In Massachussettes, a pizza shop owned by middle eastern immigrants was burned or bombed or something. The other people in the neighborhood said it wouldn't have happened had the pizza shop owners displayed their American flag more prominently.

I would call that mindset rabid. Rabid flag waving has no place in a democracy if it causes people to fear for their safety if they don't prominently display an American flag.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:46 PM

Thanks, Bert.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM

Seems to me there is an awfully lot of nit-picking going on here. I doubt the terriorists carry a dictionary with them, and even if they do, "sticks and stones," etc. etc.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: jeffp
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:43 AM

Great song, Bert. Well-timed too.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Bert
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM

Let me sing this for you all.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:35 AM

While the word "crusade" does indeed refer to the military actions of the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries by the Christians of Europe against the Muslims in the "Holy Land", it also means;" any vigirous, aggressive movement for the defenseor advancment of an idea, cause, etc.".
Let us also remember that there were also crusades against the heathen peoples in northeastern Europe going on at around the same time. These were carried out largely by the knights of the Teutonic order- similar to the Templars- i.e. warrior monks.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM

The Germans and their allies were not Muslims, so the word didn't have the same associations when Eisenhower used it.

For Muslims to have someone use that word in this context must sound a lot it would if a German were to invoke the memory of Hitler as a rallying call in a time of national crisis.

I'm not knocking you Dewey. It's easy enough to use the insensitive word, and we all do it and it doesn't matter too much.

But what does matter is that I have just seen it flashed up on my screen that George Bush has referred to it as a "crusade against terrorism", and that does matter.

In this context for him to have used that word is sheer insanity. It is going to cost lives, American lives among them. I can imagine that the people behind the plane bombings must have leapt for joy when they saw that quote. If Bush had been in their pay he could not have said anything more likely to help them.

I'm praying that somehow the BBC got that quote wrong, and that an overworked sub somewhere may have written the wrong word instead of "struggle" or "war" or whatever. But I do not think that is very likely. I'm just hoping that it was a slip of the mind, and that Bush will apologise for it. If it actually represents the way he is thinking, God help us all.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:17 AM

Besides Eisenhower "embarked on the great crusade" in Normady France and no-one gave him grief about it.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:00 AM

O.K. Military Crusade was a poor choice of words to make this point and I apologize. But I'm sure many out there know just what I meant. And the U.S after all is not a fanatic with religion like Bin Laden and there is a seperation of Church and State.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:51 AM

All Great Leaders Consulted God in their hour of Crisis: Washington, Lincoln, General Patton, FDR, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr.

All these people prayed for our nation's sucess, and what a track record of success it was!

This is why our current president has called a day our prayer. Let us not take it lightly.

Prayer for the future of the nation and this world!

Dewey, who has digressed from the thread and isprobably hated by the American Atheist Society

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:49 AM

"military crusade" - I thought that word would crop up.

And in the same post there is the statement "As far as the U.S. killing people. Of course we do this too, but never in the name of God."

What else is the meaning of a "military crusade" (or "military jihad")but killing in the name of God (for which the Arabic word is Allah - check out any Arabic versioin of the Bible)

Most of the world shares the horror at the bombing, and deeply sympathises with the victims, including Muslims. Anything that breaks that unity, such as talking about "crusades" merely serves to further the aims of the people who blew up those planes and buildings.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:26 AM

Do fly the Flag! And, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:20 AM

I'm not talking about the Jerry Fawell Idiots and other know it all fanatics. And I suriously doubt that Bin Laden's MASS MURDER PLOT on American soil could ever be characterized as God's Will. (if anyone here can justify bin laden they need their head examined-so this is NOT the issue)

I meant the God (whichever one you choose to worship) that is a HIGHER POWER that instills in the human bieng a CONSCIENCE, an sense of JUSTICE and PROTECTION for the RIGHTS and LIVES of other human beings. This is what I meant by the ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

Not all countries have a conscience towad a higher power and a supreme being. nor do they believe even remotely in the rule of law.

Godless Russian Under Stalin, Facist Racial Supremist Hitler, Imperialist Hiroheto (however you spell his name) were all morally bankrupt and did not believe in a higher power or court that they or others like them would some day answer to. E.G. a day of judgement.

The God of Morality didn't reign in their hearts and actions. They were Godless and brutal in the treatment of others and even their own people.

Stalin established the Worker's Zoo: Churches built by his own people turned into pirson camps. people who were captured, made political prisoner's and FORCED to work shoveling grain into what was once their church.People palced in capticity without any rights or compensation for the work they did. The word ZOO, should be of interest also, as an example of GODLESSNESS, they did not reguard these people as people. They were made ANIMALS of the state as the name ZOO implies Stuck in a cage to work. Do you really think the Russian Regime worried much about answering to a court for these deeds or a higher power?

Yes the U.S. is different (maybe not perfect) but different. As are other Great and Noble nations such as Canada, Great Britain, Greece, etc. Basically All God Fearing Civilized Democracies with the rule of law.

It is important for a nation to believe in a higher power and a judgement. If a nation does not belive in this. They will not be guided by morality, will have nothing to fear, and will thus act accordingly and do all sorts of dastardly deeds. After all, without a GOD, who will punish them for their misbehavior. What have they to lose by acting barbaric?

This is why the world needs GOD (a higher power and judgement) A Godless world will thus produce Godless deeds. And if you don't believe me just study the history of Godless Nations and you will see that their destruction and demise were inevitable over time.

As Far as Fanatics, that is not God. That is God in Disguise: in reality that is the Devil. Bin laden is a wolf in sheeps clothing. This is not God, and my God help help on Judgement Day.

Yes, I do believe in a Judgement Day.

As far as the U.S. killing people. Of course we do this too, but never in the name of God. We fight wars too. People will die in those wars. So! Does this make the U.S. a villain? I've never known a bloodless war ever. We didn't start this war, we didn't want this war. But we are required for the safety and security of the world to finish it.

Unless all the peace-nics out there would prefer anarchy, terrorism, totalitarian etc. Let's have no more talk of the U.S. being the bad guy especially not after this week while thousands of people from many nations lay dead from this sensless slanter.

God be with the people of the world, and may the U.S. be effective it is upcoming military crusade against the foes of mankind. And may the blood shed and lives lost be few!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:04 PM

Those who believe in God also often believe that He uses His creations as tools to carry out His will.
The trick, of course, lies in determining just WHAT God's will IS.
I'm sure that Osama bin Laden feels he knows, as does Jerry Falwell.
*SIGH*

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:17 PM

And while we are dealing with nonesense statements. I don't find a U.S. soldier draped in a flag distasteful. In the picture that I saw, the flag was not touching the ground. And even if it was, considering that it may be him rather than you rotting on an Afghan mountainside in a month or two, I don't think that it is an infraction worth wasting time on.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:13 PM

Whose side is he on this time?

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:12 PM

Sorry Little hawk, but the logic you have used to defend your comments about Mexico and Mexicans just do not wash. "As likely as not," to fluent English speakers, means that there is a prety good chance that something is going to happen. If stabbings occured because of insults on even a moderate basis, then Mexico would be one big, constant knife fight. Anyone who has spent any length of time in Mexico would say that it is incorrect. Likewise, the statement that "Life is cheap" in Mexico is simply unsubstantiated nonesense along the lines of saying that middle-class Americans (as opposed to lower class and wealthy?) "tend" to be shopoholics or addicted to junk food.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 11:14 AM

oh, heavens, yes, let GOD sort this out.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:21 AM

Oopps! Forgot to Add this: "GOD bless America" And I do mean GOD with a capital G. We must be a just and righteous nation too and God will lead us through and against the forces and pricipalities of darkness"

Let's all pray for the rightous and noble decisions of our God Fearing Nation in its hour of crisis: that through God and Our Democratic Values we will do the right thing for the future of this world and mankind.

Above all, let's not leave God out of the equation. God Almightly can combat evil much more effective than some silly arm-band!

Dewey, who is not scared to say the G word. Even in the presence of academic liberals!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Dewey
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:07 AM

Fly the Flag if you want to. If you don't want to: No Big Deal, there are plenty of Patriotic Americans (myself included) who will gladly do it in your place.

The American Flag is self-sustaining, much like it was in WW2, there will alway be someone around to protect this noble and immortal symbol, past present and future.

The Ira Haze picture of Mount Surabachi Iwo Jima sums up this truth up prefectly, and last week at the world trade center ground zero, we see this same picture revisited to another generation: a beautiful picture of brave American Firefighters, defiant against the forces of evil,intolerence, and totalitarianism. Once again raising the American Flag for a new generation.

The leftist who who hate this Country, I doubt will ever fully appreciate the significance of the U.S. flag. I think one must first have liberties taken away, and human lives threatened (much like was done, by the Nazis) Before such reverence is appreciated.

Bob Wills summed up up the Beauty and Fate of the American Flag in his inspirational song, "Stars And Stripes on Iwo Jima"

High on the Hill of Surabachi Waves Old Glory AND SHE ALWAYS WILL"

The American Flag will always be around because of what it represents. And there will always be individuals around to defend it.

This lyric still does (and will always) send chills up my spine.

Truth has a tendency to do that

Dewey, A Patriotic American who loves the American Flag, the U.S.A and all other democracies throughout the free world.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

Peg, although you didclear it up, the statement was false and you expressed no regret in your clarification post for any additional hurt or sorrow that statement may have caused. That came later.
It was this seeming lack of regret that pushed MY buttons. I thought I had made that clear, if not in my initial post, certainly in subsequent ones.
I'll have to work on my communications skills.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM

Hey Sinsull, L.H., take a Time out! Go to your corners and come out smilin'

DougR

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

Thanks, Peg, for the clarification, I appreciate it and apologise for unkind words and misunderstanding.

kat

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

Phil Ochs....on how others see us;

"Clean the johns with a rag boys, clean the johns with a rag If you like you can use your flag boys If you like you can use your flag"

From "Cops of the World"

Think about it, please

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:18 PM

Thanks Frank, PM on the way!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Pseudolus
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

Folks,
I would venture to guess that no two of us are mourning in quite the same way. Some are flying flags, others lighting candles, still others are just simply silent. There are those whose anger has them waving a flag while chanting U.S.A! These people are hurting too. I don't follow in their footsteps and chant because my mourning is exactly that.....my mourning. But I respect their right to do so. Some of us have lashed out in here. Again, not my way, but I respect that as well. Let this thread be the place to lash out, let's get the anger out, and at some point let's let the anger lay. If it will help anyone to vent, lash out, etc., PM me, I'd be glad to hear it, to help in any way I can.

Take care and Peace....
Frank

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

kat: I was not implying you (or anyone else) does NOT have a life or that I have more of one; only that not everyone can be expected to monitor to and respond to posts as quickly as others seem to think they should. But it was a statement made in anger and I apologize if you thought I was judging you; I was not. But no one should assume that because a post is not responded to quickly enough to suit someone who checks in constantly, that the person being expected to respond is letting something go on too long; they may simply be away from their computers. Ya know? Out doing something else...as I was.

Troll; I made no false statement. I cleared it up. I can't help it if you still don't get it.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: GUEST,Timbrel
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM

Right now I am flying flags on my house and car. I am flying it because this is a country in which i am free to disagree with my government when my moral responsibilities tell me to. Because so many have died to protect us. Because without the systems of government which I so casually dismissed as silly before have probably saved thousands more innocent lives. Because of the rescue workers, the volunteers, the people who have raided their grocery stores and medicine cabinets to gather the thousands of blankets, towels, toothbrushes, bars of soap and the like that I helped to sort at the local Red Cross last night I am flying it because I LOVE the people of this country, our optimism, willingness to help, strength in the face of fear. I love my family and my home, which are both in America. So many of my heroes -- Martin Luther King, Woody guthrie, Maya Angelou, Pete Seeger -- are Americans and have worked tirelessly to improve this country. Finally, there has come a call to display the flag which I cannot ignore.

I will fly the flag until (and I hhope this does not occur) I am ashamed to fly it, because of acts of hatred, bigotry, and small-mindedness, or because our government loses my support. That happened to a lot of us in the Gulf War. I plead, everyone, STAY sane, SPREAD sanity, and let us all display our flag with pride and hope. Don't defile it with shameful acts. The time for that has come to an end.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

Let me guess, LH. Some of your best friends are Mexicans...of course, you are very careful around them. Wouldn't want to get stuck with a knife.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM

Just because somethings wrong doesn't mean it's accurate to desribe it as Fascist, Little Hawk. Fascist means something else than that. Triumph of the will and all that stuff for example. It isn't just synonynmous with intolerance.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Ladies, gentlemen, please let's not make a terrible situation worse by bickering. I'd like to see us all direct our thoughts toward those in need of our collective support right now.

I agree with DougR: I see the various demonstrations of patriotism as a means of achieving solidarity, as well as strengthening our resolve to end the nightmare of terrorism. If I could FIND an American flag for sale, I would buy it and display it, but every store is sold out and ordering more. So, until those orders come into the stores, I'm displaying the red-white-and-blue decorative flags I usually have out for Independence Day. Since I live in an apartment and can't display them in the yard or attach a flagpole to an outside wall, I am using tension bars to display them in my windows (and making sure my apartment is well-lit in the evenings!).

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

SINSULL - Maybe you're right. ("You're right from your side, I'm right from mine" - Dylan)

I did see more fights in Mexico (and really violent ones, sometimes with knives) in one short period of 3 months than I am used to seeing around here over the course of five or ten years, but...maybe I've just been lucky (around here, I mean).

I qualified it by saying that I have a great admiration for the Mexican people, which I do. No country is perfect, and every society has its flaws.

Life was cheap in Dodge City in the 1800's. Is that a racist statement? (Guess not. Ain't no one still alive from there to contest it! Whew!)

Middle-class North Americans have a strong tendency to be shopaholics and to eat junk food. Is that a racist statement?

Some places are more dangerous than others. Downtown Washington D.C. is far more dangerous than downtown Toronto, Canada. Is that a racist statement?

Is the stating of a plainly observable situation necessarily racist? I said "as likely as not"...meaning one Mexican might, while another might not...I have seen people pull knives in Mexico. I've also known plenty of those who I am quite sure would not do that.

Check the crime statistics for Mexico City. Check 'em for Washington D.C.

I don't expect to necessarily convince you of anthing, Mary, but I have noticed that we seem destined to butt heads for some reason, and that's unfortunate.

I know I am living in a world now where there are numerous constituencies of people around about whom you can make no public statement that might be deemed critical in any way by anyone else, even if you didn't intend it to be critical in the first place, and even if it's TRUE, without being accused of "racism" or "sexism" or some other "ism", and I am intimidated enough about that already to have no intention of even suggesting who those constituencies might be...

I call that a form of fascism. It is to silence people through fear, so that they dare not speak on certain subjects except to blandly parrot the officially accepted line...said line being promulgated by various groups with a chip on their shoulder, and an agenda that is self-serving and based on a cult of victimhood and innate moral superiority, not on a perception of human equality.

In the 60's and 70's I spoke out many times in defence of some of those groups, and tried to be one of those who helped them achieve equality. I now see many of their spokesmen and members caught up in a viciously reactive psychology that is based not on equality whatsoever, but on zenophobic hatred and thoughts of superiority. It's naked fascism in action, but it is not acknowledged as such.

No one dares to call it what it is, especially no one in the public arena, and this is a public forum. If you listen to the private conversations of ordinary people all over the place you will hear plenty that they will not dare to say publicly...and I am speaking of good and kindly inclined people who are not racists, indeed who have fought quietly for racial equality all their lives.

That's why I laugh at the notion that we are living in a "free" society. It's freer than some, all right, but it's got a long way to go.

As for Mexicans...I have always liked Mexicans and I regard them as fully equal in human value to me or you or anyone else in every sense. Not identical, but equal.

If any of this is still offensive, well, I will have to live with being thought of as "racist" by someone, I guess...

To succeed in never offending anyone can become a full time job, and a thankless one, but what is the reward for such a course of action, and what happens to one's own identity in the process?

"Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood" (not a Dylan quote)

Now, excuse me, I've got to move some furniture and stuff...

- LH

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM

Thanks Kevin. My last post was public because I was asked to make it so. Your analysis of the situation is quite probably correct.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM

PMs = Personal Messages, in this case. Head to head conflicts are maybe better not on the threads, because it gets catching.

One problem with Mudcat time is that it sometime runs very fast. If you don't check the times, it can look like a long time has passed between two successive posts by the same person.

In this case it just over 24 hours between Peg's misleading post, and the one from her clarifying the situation. Only the posts are going so fast at this time, and what would normally be recognised as figurative language was in fact only too horribly plausible as a statement of literal fact. Emotions are very raw at present.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:24 PM

Do whatever you want, Peg. It doesn't matter if it makes me happy or not. I do not look to you for my happiness. I know when I have suffered a great loss, such as when my mother died, I did check back here, often, to get what comfort I could from those who posted the condolences.

Oh yeah, I sit on my ass at the computer 16 hours a day and have no friends, no life, right? Your implications that some, who may spend more time on the computer than you, don't "have a life" are judgemental and prejudicial.

Now, I apologise for going off, too. but I will not apologise for my opinion. I agree with troll.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:16 PM

Peg, I apologize for my misinterpretation of the motives behind your initial post. Since you say my interpretation was wrong, I apologize.
However, the statement about your "true love" burning to death was not true and, although you say it was not meant literally I -and others- did not know that.
In your clarification post you expressed no regret that anyone might have been misled. That didn't come until later.
So I apologize again for my misinterpretation, and I accept your expression of regret that I and others were misled.
But YOU made a false statement (however pure your motives) and I see no reason why I should have to apologize for pointing it out.

troll

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

I didn't view the many pictures of people on TV waving flags and chanting U.S.A as encouraging military action myself. I viewed it as a symbol of solidarity, and that is what is going to be required in the days ahead. That's just my view, of course, and I am not criticizing anyone else for viewing it differently.

DougR

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:32 PM

My guess is that a World Flag would have little appeal in Afghanistan. The fact is, the American Flag does represent a shared culture and shared values, and one that has little in common with other parts of the world. Until the World can be brought together in a shared vision, a World Flag is meaningless.

Today I fly the flag that was given to me at my Father's funeral, in honor of his service in the Second World War. I shall fly it in remembrance of him, and in sorrow for the loss of so many innocent victims in the recent tragedy, and in hope that we shall be wise and strong in the coming days.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

Little Hawk:"Now Mexicans...try trampling on a Mexican's honor and he will as likely as not stick a knife in your guts right then and there. Life is cheap in Mexico."

This is a sick, racist obscenity. Please think before you post.
Mary

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Gervase
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

Peg, et al,
Over-reacting? Maybe - but what precedent is there for our reactions?
On this side of the Atlantic we have had our share of rubble, violent death and destruction, with the inevitable stark images of shattered buildings and broken lives; Guildford, Birmingham, Warrington, Bishopsgate, Enniskillen, Omagh and dozens more.
All of them have made an impact on our national consciousness, and all of them have led to cries for vengeance and retribution that inflamed rather than salved an age-old wound.
Those attrocities - and attrocities they were - cannot singly or together compare in enormity to what happened on Tuesday.
So there really is no yardstick for reaction - which for me is very worrying, as the rhetoric and bullshit flies and both the fond and the foolish reach for a flag in which to wrap themselves.
Time, maybe, to remember the wise words of someone else to whom both our countries have reason to give thanks - Tom Paine.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
So don't apologise m'dear. Not to me, at least!

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

I am sorry if I sound so cranky. I just cannot get over being accused of lying about losing someone in this tragedy. That would be such a horrible thing for someone to do, no matter what their motivation. So forgive me if this stuff I am typing is overreaction (to anyone but Troll).

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 11:20 AM

PMs? or PMS???

;)

Paul from Hull, thanks, I just want to make sure I can communicate as well as possible right now. Not sure I can, but..

Kat, you implied I "let this go on too long" when I did not KNOW about it! Like I did so intentionally. I see that as an inappropriate accusation. Not an "opinion." And I see such an accusation as "nasty," too, thank you very much.

I have made it clear what I did and did not intend with that post; if people misinterpreted it, that is too bad and I have done what I can about it.

Expecting me to live at my computer JUST IN CASE someone gets their knickers in a knot about something I posted to a goddamned message board is ridiculous. Gee, I wish I could travel back in time and RESPOND MORE QUICKLY to posts that occurred while I was out having a life.

Shall I stop seeing friends and loved ones in this time of tragedy so I can monitor the Mudact 24-7? Would that make you happy?

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

PMs ?

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:26 AM

Peg, can one express their opinion without you going off on them? I know we have all been on edge this week, but we don't need to get so nasty with one another. Whether you are on the computer or not, that was a provocative post and it would have been much better had you checked it earlier. That is all I am saying.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM

Sorry if I have made you feel uncomfortable Peg...

I just suggested that you drop it, but to my mind you have clarified you position & original intent very well, & I retract what I said about 'dropping' the matter.

Best wishes,

Paul

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

kat;

excuse me for HAVING A LIFE, but I did not SEE those messages of sympathy until I posted last night. I cleared it up as soon as I knew about the confusion.

If that is not good enough, I guess I deserve to be bitch-slapped some more for it.

Not everyone is at their computer for 16 hours a day...

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:14 AM

Peg, I knew you were not being literal in your intitial post, but I think, as soon as the messages of sympathy started, you should have come in and clarified. It went on too long without that, with people genuinely believng you'd had a personal loss. I think that is what might have offended and it could have been cleared up more quickly, had you posted immediately after the expresions of sympathy started.

kat

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: Peg
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM

Paul from Hull;

Like I said, I had NO INTENTION whatsoever of misleading anyone, and I am hurt anyone would even think me capable of such a thing, let alone accuse me of doing it.

I do not feel a need to apologize for my initial post; as I said, I regret anyone's confusion as a result of it because adding to another's stress at this terrible time pains me. But I did not think it was something that was obviously meant in a literal way; especially among people familiar with traditional music...

My post above was not a reply to yours, Paul. But thanks, anyway.

I do not appreciate being told to let something DROP when there are clearly still people who harbor bad feelings about it. That makes it seem like I must slink away in shame because someone is still offended. And maybe some wil remain offended by my take on this (not my probem). But if they are offended because I have not been clear about where I stand, it is up to me to correct that.

I DID feel a need to clarify and detail my thoughts on the different sorts of flag waving and patriotism happening around me; because, in my opinion, some of it is appropriate, and some of it is not. But I am not opposed to the flag in general. I am happy for anything, symbolic or otherwise, that gives people comfort right now.

Subject: RE: Fly the FLAG!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM

In my town we're twinned with towns in the Czech Republic and in France, so those flags are flown in the shopping centre all the time, along with the Union Jack. The European flag gets flown outside the Town Hall a lot of the time, and the flag of the UN, and I'm sure we'd fly the World Flag as well if we had it. And sometimes it's the Harlow Flag. All at half-mast this week.

Over in Tipperary last week there'd have been flags outside pretty well every house, and they'd have been the Tipperary Flag, because it was the All Ireland Hurling Final against Galway - and they'll still be there now, because Tipp won, and this weekend it's the Camogie final, which is the women's version of the game, and Tipp is in that too. But noone flies that flag because they hate any other county, and if anyone from Galway had been living in Tipp and chose to fly the Galway flag noone would have worried about that either.

Flags are a symbol that you love your country (for example) and if anyone ever flies a flag as a symbol that they hate some other country, or hate some other people, that is the only real way of desecrating it. And sadly, as katlaughing reminded us, there are people who do that sometimes, and in places where that happens to fly that flag would seem like sharing in that desecration.

I see they've got a World Flag T-shirt. I might get one of those, since I haven't got a flagpole.