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From a Mother's Point of View...
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Steve Parkes Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM It's been a long time since Americans were able to hand on to their children the "world" they had made for themselves with their own hands (and much, much longer for us Europeans). But we, the man and woman in the street, don't have much to do with making the world; it's governments and, even more so nowadays, big businesses that make the world the way it is. In the West, any way: in some other countries it's the State--whoever that is. Remember the old cartoons of the social pyramid, with the king (or whoever) at the top and the people at the bottom? "We rule you"; "we fool you" (the state Church); "we shoot you" (the army); "we support all". Sorry--I'm starting to sound like a bit of a lefty, aren't I? But even before the Revolution, a lot of colonies in America were started by folks who wanted to make the world--or their bit of it--a better place for themselves and their children. Today we can only hope our children can look after themselves and stay lucky. Steve |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: jeffp Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM Tuesday evening, as we watched the news with horror and disbelief, my wife and I hugged our daughter (18) and her boyfriend (21) and I told them, "I had hoped we would give you a better world than this."
jeffp |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: mmm1a Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:22 AM Strange I can find a thread that is one of my concerns, I have 5 sons 4 are in their 20's one is seriously considering joining the army. If I could share with you some thing I wrote when I was 13 and had just learned my older brother had been drafted.
I miss my brother like someday I'll miss sons
there is more but I am finding it ironic that a song I wrote when I was 13 is still has the same meaning when I am 44 . It was a song I had hoped would be a thing of the past. mmm |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM Steve.... yes. Unsafe as it is, it is about as safe as it gets. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: CarolC Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:08 PM I think we need to always be mindful of the difference between fighting to preserve freedom, and fighting to promote an economic and political advantage over other peoples and other nations. If my son decided to fight to help preserve freedom in a situation where it clearly is in jeopardy, I would have to respect that decision. However, if the government of the US ever tried to draft him to fight for any other reason, I, personally, would assist him in any way necessary to prevent this from happening. |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Steve in Idaho Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM You are welcome - sometimes I think that Mudcat is the only haven safe enough to say and hear the things that go on. Peace - Steve |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM Thank you, Norton1. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Steve in Idaho Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM How Father's feel. When it came time for my son to be drafted I made a pact with my Mate in Australia to have my son go there. Since my mate and I both fought in Viet Nam it seemed the only practical thing to do. My Son's friends all joined up and thought the worse of him because he did not join or get called. Today he has two lovely daughters, is alive, and his friends all tell him how lucky he was to have a father that kept him safe. I didn't have to send him to Australia but had a ticket in hand in case. He is an "Only Son" and I am fairly well disabled from my service. It kept him out of the fray. It didn't change how terrified I felt sitting at the TV waiting for word on one of my friends son who was in the barracks in Beirut when it was bombed. Luckily he had just left minutes before the bombing in a transfer to sea duty. Still felt the terror for the days we didn't know. I still can't look at my friend's Mom without crying - he joined the Marines because I did. And got his head shot off in an ambush. She made the military leave the casket open so the others could see what had happened to him. She is still angry and this happened in 1967. Fathers feel - we are just trained to hide it better. I set with one of my work mates this morning for 3 hours. She was having an anxiety attack about the destruction yesterday - she flashed back to when she was a crew chief and was pulling pins out of nuclear weapons - the weapons nearly went to Libya. Anyone remember that one? The folks in the UK were protesting the Americans retaliatory strikes at the time. She talked about driving down the road with protesters on one side lining the road - she went home for the rest of the day. Am I rambling enough? I have seen the troops here at the base I work on gain resolve to do their job. Young men and women - Fathers and mothers also - leave their children to go do as their country asked. I pray for them all. Peace - Steve |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Art Thieme Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM Sorry for all the typos. I was too anxious to post I guess. But please remember, there are two sides to every coin. Also, what will be done, will be done---and it has nothing at all to do with God's will from my viewpoint. It is in our hands however. Art |
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Subject: Lyr Add: DEAR MR PRESIDENT (Almanac Singers) From: Art Thieme Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM Even McNamara now says he was probably wrong during Viet Nam. Very few of the "Greatest Generation" feel that way. Even The Almanac Singers understood it was necessary to change their minds and join in the efforts that had to be undertaken-even if they were doing so reluctantly. Yes, it was the worst of times --- and Bogart and Ilsa weren't in Casa Blanca as it turned out. DEAR MR. PRESIDENT (from Pete and the Almanac Singers--1942) Dear Mr. President I set me down To bring you greetings from my home town, And send you best wishes from friends I know In Texas, West Virginia and Ohi-o, And unaffiliated. I'm an ordinary guy worked most of my life, I settled down with my kids and wife, I like to see a movie or to take a little drink, And I like being free to say what I think, It sort of runs in the family. My grandpa crossed the ocean for the same reasons. I hate Hitler and I'll tell you why, He caused lots of folks to suffer and die, He's got a way of shovin' folks around, I figure it's about time we slapped him down, Give him a dose of his own medicine. Lead poison! Now Mr. President it's this I know, We haven't always agreed in the past I know, But that's not what is important now, What is important is what we've got to do, Is to lick Mr. Hitler and until we do Ther things can wait, In other words first we've got a skunk to skin. War means overtime and higher prices, But we're all willing to make sacrifices, Hell, I'd even stop fightin' with my mother-in-law 'Cause we need her too to win the war. The old battle axe. Now as I travel around this good land, With it's cities and towns and farming land, I know it ain't perfect but it will be some day Just give us a little time This is the reason that I want to fight, Not because everything's perfect or everything's right, Yes, siree, I'm fightin' because I want a better America and better laws, Better homes and jobs and schools No more Jim Crow and no more rules Like you can't ride on this train 'cause you're a Negro You can't live here 'cause you're a Jew or an Arab, You can't work here 'cause you're a union man. There's a line that keeps running through my head, Something that Joe Louis once said, He said, "There's lots of things wrong but Hitler won't help 'em." Now, Mr. President, you're the commander and chief of our armed forces, The ships and the planes and the tanks and the horses, I hope you know best where I can fight, All I want to be is situated right, To do the most damage. I never was one to try and shirk, And let the other fellow do all of the work, Bu if the time comes I'll be on hand To make good use of these two hands, Quit playin' this banjo around with the boys And exchange it for something that makes more noise. And so Mr. President, We've got this one big job to do That's lick Mr. Hitler and when we're through Let no one else take his place To trample down the human race But what I want if for you to give me a gun, So we can hurry up and get the job done. (This might just be another point of view. We do have a son---and I am left conflicted as hell by what went down on September 11, 2001. No easy answers. Just remember the war in the Falkland Islands and what gender person perpetrated those events. Joan of Arc had no testosterone that we know of running through her veins but she did what she did --- and all with visions of religious fervor dancing in her head. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Biskit Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:29 PM Thanks Bill, I hadn't heard that one in years. I liked it then, and I like it now,..(in a Dr. Seuss sorta way) Peace,~Biskit~ |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: selby Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:25 PM Many years ago I fought hard with my eldest son to stop him joining the army to become sniper fodder in N Ireland Many years later he still dosn't speak to me but he is alive. Keith |
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Subject: ADD two songs above From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM Yes, very. Fathers are GOOD. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: catspaw49 Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM Well there are two fine posts. Thanks Shad and bill.... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: bill\sables Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM The Box Long, long ago in the land of Hushaby Around about the wondrous days of yore They came across a kind of box Bound up with chains and locked with locks and labeled "kindly do not touch, it's war" Well the children understood, children happen to be good and they were just as good around the times of yore Mother didn't touch it either sisters, aunts and grannies neither for they were quiet, sweet and pretty in the wondrous days of yore But someone did. someone battered in the lid and spilled the inside out upon the floor a kind of bouncy bumping ball made up of all the guns and all the flags and fear and horror that make war It bounced right out and went crashing all about and bumping into everything in store and what was sad and most unfair is that it didn't really seem to care just who it bumped, or how, or when, or for It bumped the children mainly and I'll tell you this quite plainly It bumps them every day and more and more and leaves them, burned and sick and crying thousands of them dead and dying For when it bumps its really very sore Now there's a way to stop the ball, it isn't difficult at all all it takes is wisdom and I'm absolutely sure we can put the ball back in the box and bind the chains and lock the locks but no-one seems to want to save the children any more Well that's the way it all appears 'cos its been bouncing round for years and years In spite of all the wisdom wizzed since the wondrous days of yore Just put the ball back in the box bind up the chains and lock the locks and label "kindly do not touch - ITS WAR"
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Subject: Lyr Add: WITH A MEMORY LIKE MINE (Darrell Scott) From: SDShad Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM A father's keening, not the worry but the loss that too often comes after it:
WITH A MEMORY LIKE MINE
I can see that train a-comin' |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM Not EVERYONE who joins the military is turned into a grunt. There are tons of support troops in medical, cooks, engineers, mechanics, computer technicians, cargo haulers, photographers, office workers and truck drivers. Just because you join up doesn't necessarily mean they hand you a gun and send you to infantry school. |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Steve Parkes Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM Women here used to say that the country would be run very differently if there was a woman in charge. Then we got Mrs thatcher, and it was. I don't know why (some) people always want to fight; when I was a kid, people used to tell me that any fool can start a fight, but it takes a man to walk away from one. Trouble is, a lot of fight-starters would walk after you. Why do people always want to make other people do what they tell them? Steve |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: SINSULL Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM The first "leader" I heard suggest a war was Hillary Rodham Clinton. So much for the "more mothers in government" theory. Why should anyone have to fight? Don't we have enough nuclear weapons to blow the world away? SINSULL, Angry Mother Mode. |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM Thanks, Steve. I want all Dads to feel free to share what they are feeling, here, too. Not that people won't argue whether anyone should feel how they say they feel... but if the moms are going to have a go, dads oughtta be welcome here too. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Steve Parkes Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:02 PM I think we worry mostly by telling ourselves it probably won't happen! Statistics are on our side: there's 4 billion folks out there and only two of them are mine. Both Tim and Beckie have been in minor car accidents; I don't think about being crushed or burned or cut up. Not much, anyway. Stalin said "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic". But I can't see it that way. Even though it's thousands of miles away, I still can't see yesterday's events as something remote and non-personal. I put myself in the position of the victims: each death is a tragedy, a man or woman fearing for him/herself, and for the otheres around them. Sorry, I could witter on for ages in he same vein, but it's not getting the babby washed, as we say. How do I worry? Very thouroughly. Steve |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM No, Steve, it isn't... but maybe we worry differently. How do fathers worry? What are you feeling today? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: GUEST,Steve Parkes Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:34 AM It's not just mothers that worry ... |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Mrrzy Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM I couldn't stay at work yesterday. As I was going home to find more TV coverage and all, I had an indescribably strong urge to just grab my first-graders out of school and hold them and not let them go. Luckily for them I was able to stifle it, but I must have gone in to caress them pretty much every 10 mn after I put them down... I hadn't even thought about them being too young for a putative draft - as are all my nephews, although I have nieces old enough if they lift the sex discrimination... horrible to contemplate. |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:10 AM We have two Navy boys. One is assigned to a sub. He said yesterday in the one call he could make that with all leaves canceled, he would finally be getting out on an extended tour after a LONG time stuck in refits on two boats. And my reaction was relief-- thank God he will be deep underwater, where the terrorists have not yet figured out how to go. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Troll Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM Do not confuse peace and freedom. You can have peace under the most brutal of dictatorships. It is possible to have peace and freedom but it's very difficult. The fact is, as Jefferson said, the tree of liberty must ocassionally be watered with the blood of patriots. He who will not fight to preserve his freedom does not deserve it. I have a son who is just 18. He has his whole life before him and I pray that he will never have to live with the memories of war.But our freedoms I don't want war. I don't want my son to experience it's horror, it's blood and waste. But freedom is worth fighting for. Very little else is. troll |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Amergin Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM I have no worries about being called myself...but my kid brother is 17...he will be 18 in March....I think that he would go....same as our cousin who is only a couple of weeks or so younger....only my brother would see it as "God's plan".....while my cousin would see it as his duty to his country.... |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Melani Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:33 AM My daughter, who will be 18 in a week, has asked several times if they will draft girls. |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: katlaughing Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:29 AM Children, by the time they reach draft age, think they are invincible and know everything. Unless we women and men make a huge concerted effort to work for peace, they will always be eager to join up, regardless of what we desire. Legally they are adults and we could not stop them. We CAN do something about the officials who would try to institute the draft, again. we can let them know NOW that we will not stand for it; that they will have to figure out a way to resolve it without the majority of our children as pawns. If every mother and father would stand up and be counted in this effort, we really could have a chance at peace. And, YES, there needs to be more women in high positions. Also, please see the long posting a put in I think # 5, maybe 4, a press release about the Dept. of Peace that a Rep from Ohio is trying to get going in our government and also what the Indian military has offered in a bold move of ancient Vedic techniques with modern applications. There is HOPE, we must not let despair take over. luvyakat |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Sorcha Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:29 AM Yea, we just sew on the damn patches and sit and wait for news.............all of us, all over the world.Damn All War........it only takes our children, right? |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Sorcha Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM Yes, he did. Just don't kill our children........any of them........don't make the children pay for past mistakes or stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM Sorcha, mothers all over the world and all throughout time have been wondering the same damn thing, but all we ever get is more destruction. Maybe mothers should be elected to positions of power more often. LTS |
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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View... From: katlaughing Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:21 AM Sorhca, see flattop's last post on the number 5 thread. I had raised the same concern and he made a good point. |
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Subject: From a Mother's Point of View... From: Sorcha Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:08 AM I have just spent the last three hours sewing on patches....and talking to "my" young men in the Military/Reserves.........none of them are my biological sons......but they are are all my children. I hope that
I have convinced at least 2 of them that we do not need to kill indiscriminately......one signed papers for the Marine Corps this afternoon, 2 more are waiting for the Draft to be re instated to join the Navy...o dear god. Several others are already National Guard of some sort......
My own bio son is probably "safe".....he is 22 and a convicted felon (on a deferred prosecution) but he wants to join up. I am not sure they will have him.........he is Search and Rescue, so if a relief call is issued, he may do that.....
Bloodydamnall........I don't want any of "my" children involved in this, but how else do we stop it???
Tired of children for cannon fodder....... |
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