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From a Mother's Point of View...

Sorcha 12 Sep 01 - 01:08 AM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 01:21 AM
Liz the Squeak 12 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM
Sorcha 12 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM
Sorcha 12 Sep 01 - 01:29 AM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 01:29 AM
Melani 12 Sep 01 - 01:33 AM
Amergin 12 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM
Troll 12 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 10:10 AM
Mrrzy 12 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,Steve Parkes 12 Sep 01 - 10:34 AM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM
Steve Parkes 12 Sep 01 - 12:02 PM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM
SINSULL 12 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM
Steve Parkes 12 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM
GUEST 12 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM
SDShad 12 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM
bill\sables 12 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM
selby 12 Sep 01 - 01:25 PM
Biskit 12 Sep 01 - 02:29 PM
Art Thieme 12 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM
Art Thieme 12 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM
Steve in Idaho 12 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM
Steve in Idaho 12 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM
CarolC 12 Sep 01 - 07:08 PM
wysiwyg 12 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM
mmm1a 13 Sep 01 - 12:22 AM
jeffp 13 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM
Steve Parkes 13 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM
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Subject: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:08 AM

I have just spent the last three hours sewing on patches....and talking to "my" young men in the Military/Reserves.........none of them are my biological sons......but they are are all my children. I hope that

I have convinced at least 2 of them that we do not need to kill indiscriminately......one signed papers for the Marine Corps this afternoon, 2 more are waiting for the Draft to be re instated to join the Navy...o dear god. Several others are already National Guard of some sort......

My own bio son is probably "safe".....he is 22 and a convicted felon (on a deferred prosecution) but he wants to join up. I am not sure they will have him.........he is Search and Rescue, so if a relief call is issued, he may do that.....

Bloodydamnall........I don't want any of "my" children involved in this, but how else do we stop it???

Tired of children for cannon fodder.......

Is there any news of the Draft being re-instated?


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:21 AM

Sorhca, see flattop's last post on the number 5 thread. I had raised the same concern and he made a good point.


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM

Sorcha, mothers all over the world and all throughout time have been wondering the same damn thing, but all we ever get is more destruction. Maybe mothers should be elected to positions of power more often.

LTS


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM

Yes, he did. Just don't kill our children........any of them........don't make the children pay for past mistakes or stupidity.


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:29 AM

Yea, we just sew on the damn patches and sit and wait for news.............all of us, all over the world.Damn All War........it only takes our children, right?


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:29 AM

Children, by the time they reach draft age, think they are invincible and know everything. Unless we women and men make a huge concerted effort to work for peace, they will always be eager to join up, regardless of what we desire. Legally they are adults and we could not stop them.

We CAN do something about the officials who would try to institute the draft, again. we can let them know NOW that we will not stand for it; that they will have to figure out a way to resolve it without the majority of our children as pawns. If every mother and father would stand up and be counted in this effort, we really could have a chance at peace. And, YES, there needs to be more women in high positions.

Also, please see the long posting a put in I think # 5, maybe 4, a press release about the Dept. of Peace that a Rep from Ohio is trying to get going in our government and also what the Indian military has offered in a bold move of ancient Vedic techniques with modern applications.

There is HOPE, we must not let despair take over.

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Melani
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:33 AM

My daughter, who will be 18 in a week, has asked several times if they will draft girls.


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:54 AM

I have no worries about being called myself...but my kid brother is 17...he will be 18 in March....I think that he would go....same as our cousin who is only a couple of weeks or so younger....only my brother would see it as "God's plan".....while my cousin would see it as his duty to his country....


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM

Do not confuse peace and freedom. You can have peace under the most brutal of dictatorships. It is possible to have peace and freedom but it's very difficult.
The fact is, as Jefferson said, the tree of liberty must ocassionally be watered with the blood of patriots. He who will not fight to preserve his freedom does not deserve it.
I have a son who is just 18. He has his whole life before him and I pray that he will never have to live with the memories of war.But our freedoms be defended and I would rather he had to go to war than live as a slave to fear and shame, knowing that he could have fought back but did nothing. My family has fought for freedom since the '45, and in every war since where liberty was threatened. The only one we've missed is Desert Storm.
I don't want war. I don't want my son to experience it's horror, it's blood and waste.
But freedom is worth fighting for.
Very little else is.

troll


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:10 AM

We have two Navy boys. One is assigned to a sub. He said yesterday in the one call he could make that with all leaves canceled, he would finally be getting out on an extended tour after a LONG time stuck in refits on two boats. And my reaction was relief-- thank God he will be deep underwater, where the terrorists have not yet figured out how to go.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM

I couldn't stay at work yesterday. As I was going home to find more TV coverage and all, I had an indescribably strong urge to just grab my first-graders out of school and hold them and not let them go. Luckily for them I was able to stifle it, but I must have gone in to caress them pretty much every 10 mn after I put them down... I hadn't even thought about them being too young for a putative draft - as are all my nephews, although I have nieces old enough if they lift the sex discrimination... horrible to contemplate.


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: GUEST,Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:34 AM

It's not just mothers that worry ...


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

No, Steve, it isn't... but maybe we worry differently.

How do fathers worry?

What are you feeling today?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:02 PM

I think we worry mostly by telling ourselves it probably won't happen! Statistics are on our side: there's 4 billion folks out there and only two of them are mine. Both Tim and Beckie have been in minor car accidents; I don't think about being crushed or burned or cut up. Not much, anyway.

Stalin said "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic". But I can't see it that way. Even though it's thousands of miles away, I still can't see yesterday's events as something remote and non-personal. I put myself in the position of the victims: each death is a tragedy, a man or woman fearing for him/herself, and for the otheres around them.

Sorry, I could witter on for ages in he same vein, but it's not getting the babby washed, as we say. How do I worry? Very thouroughly.

Steve


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:04 PM

Thanks, Steve. I want all Dads to feel free to share what they are feeling, here, too.

Not that people won't argue whether anyone should feel how they say they feel... but if the moms are going to have a go, dads oughtta be welcome here too.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM

The first "leader" I heard suggest a war was Hillary Rodham Clinton. So much for the "more mothers in government" theory.

Why should anyone have to fight? Don't we have enough nuclear weapons to blow the world away?
SINSULL, Angry Mother Mode.


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

Women here used to say that the country would be run very differently if there was a woman in charge. Then we got Mrs thatcher, and it was.

I don't know why (some) people always want to fight; when I was a kid, people used to tell me that any fool can start a fight, but it takes a man to walk away from one. Trouble is, a lot of fight-starters would walk after you. Why do people always want to make other people do what they tell them?

Steve


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM

Not EVERYONE who joins the military is turned into a grunt. There are tons of support troops in medical, cooks, engineers, mechanics, computer technicians, cargo haulers, photographers, office workers and truck drivers. Just because you join up doesn't necessarily mean they hand you a gun and send you to infantry school.


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Subject: Lyr Add: WITH A MEMORY LIKE MINE (Darrell Scott)
From: SDShad
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM

A father's keening, not the worry but the loss that too often comes after it:

WITH A MEMORY LIKE MINE
(Darrell Scott)

I can see that train a-comin'
Watch that big light shine this way
Hear that whistle, soft and low now
Lord, it's been an awful day

I watched him leave that Friday mornin'
It was in the month of May
I told my son to be a good soldier
But return again some day

He was returned just one year later
But I'll not forget that day
The baggage car is where he travelled
In a casket where he lay

Chorus:
Train man, keep your whistle blowin'
Make it moan and make it whine
You make a man feel mighty lonesome
With a memory like mine

In that little country graveyard
On a dark and dreary day
They placed a flag upon the casket
And the casket in the grave

I couldn't stand it any longer
And I knew not how to pray
I cried O Lord, I hate to leave him
All alone beneath that clay

[Chorus]

I can see him as a baby
I can hear him call my name
I can feel him under fire
And see him risin' from the flame

Lord if I could, I'd trade places
I would gladly give my all
I'd wrap that flag around me like a blanket
And listen for the clouds to fall

[Chorus]


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: bill\sables
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM

The Box

Long, long ago in the land of Hushaby Around about the wondrous days of yore
They came across a kind of box Bound up with chains and locked with locks
and labeled "kindly do not touch, it's war"
Well the children understood, children happen to be good
and they were just as good around the times of yore
Mother didn't touch it either sisters, aunts and grannies neither
for they were quiet, sweet and pretty in the wondrous days of yore
But someone did. someone battered in the lid and spilled the inside out upon the floor
a kind of bouncy bumping ball made up of all the guns and all the flags and fear and horror that make war
It bounced right out and went crashing all about and bumping into everything in store
and what was sad and most unfair is that it didn't really seem to care
just who it bumped, or how, or when, or for
It bumped the children mainly and I'll tell you this quite plainly
It bumps them every day and more and more and leaves them, burned and sick and crying
thousands of them dead and dying For when it bumps its really very sore
Now there's a way to stop the ball, it isn't difficult at all
all it takes is wisdom and I'm absolutely sure we can put the ball back in the box
and bind the chains and lock the locks
but no-one seems to want to save the children any more
Well that's the way it all appears
'cos its been bouncing round for years and years
In spite of all the wisdom wizzed since the wondrous days of yore
Just put the ball back in the box bind up the chains and lock the locks
and label "kindly do not touch - ITS WAR"


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM

Well there are two fine posts. Thanks Shad and bill....

Spaw


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Subject: ADD two songs above
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:19 PM

Yes, very.

Fathers are GOOD.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: selby
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:25 PM

Many years ago I fought hard with my eldest son to stop him joining the army to become sniper fodder in N Ireland Many years later he still dosn't speak to me but he is alive. Keith


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Biskit
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:29 PM

Thanks Bill, I hadn't heard that one in years. I liked it then, and I like it now,..(in a Dr. Seuss sorta way) Peace,~Biskit~


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Subject: Lyr Add: DEAR MR PRESIDENT (Almanac Singers)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

Even McNamara now says he was probably wrong during Viet Nam. Very few of the "Greatest Generation" feel that way. Even The Almanac Singers understood it was necessary to change their minds and join in the efforts that had to be undertaken-even if they were doing so reluctantly. Yes, it was the worst of times --- and Bogart and Ilsa weren't in Casa Blanca as it turned out.

DEAR MR. PRESIDENT
(from Pete and the Almanac Singers--1942)

Dear Mr. President I set me down
To bring you greetings from my home town,
And send you best wishes from friends I know
In Texas, West Virginia and Ohi-o,
And unaffiliated.

I'm an ordinary guy worked most of my life,
I settled down with my kids and wife,
I like to see a movie or to take a little drink,
And I like being free to say what I think,
It sort of runs in the family.
My grandpa crossed the ocean for the same reasons.

I hate Hitler and I'll tell you why,
He caused lots of folks to suffer and die,
He's got a way of shovin' folks around,
I figure it's about time we slapped him down,
Give him a dose of his own medicine.
Lead poison!

Now Mr. President it's this I know,
We haven't always agreed in the past I know,
But that's not what is important now,
What is important is what we've got to do,
Is to lick Mr. Hitler and until we do
Ther things can wait,
In other words first we've got a skunk to skin.

War means overtime and higher prices,
But we're all willing to make sacrifices,
Hell, I'd even stop fightin' with my mother-in-law
'Cause we need her too to win the war.
The old battle axe.

Now as I travel around this good land,
With it's cities and towns and farming land,
I know it ain't perfect but it will be some day
Just give us a little time

This is the reason that I want to fight,
Not because everything's perfect or everything's right,
Yes, siree, I'm fightin' because
I want a better America and better laws,
Better homes and jobs and schools
No more Jim Crow and no more rules
Like you can't ride on this train 'cause you're a Negro
You can't live here 'cause you're a Jew or an Arab,
You can't work here 'cause you're a union man.

There's a line that keeps running through my head,
Something that Joe Louis once said,
He said, "There's lots of things wrong but Hitler won't help 'em."

Now, Mr. President, you're the commander and chief of our armed forces,
The ships and the planes and the tanks and the horses,
I hope you know best where I can fight,
All I want to be is situated right,
To do the most damage.

I never was one to try and shirk,
And let the other fellow do all of the work,
Bu if the time comes I'll be on hand
To make good use of these two hands,
Quit playin' this banjo around with the boys
And exchange it for something that makes more noise.

And so Mr. President, We've got this one big job to do
That's lick Mr. Hitler and when we're through
Let no one else take his place
To trample down the human race
But what I want if for you to give me a gun,
So we can hurry up and get the job done.

(This might just be another point of view. We do have a son---and I am left conflicted as hell by what went down on September 11, 2001. No easy answers. Just remember the war in the Falkland Islands and what gender person perpetrated those events. Joan of Arc had no testosterone that we know of running through her veins but she did what she did --- and all with visions of religious fervor dancing in her head.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Art Thieme
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:41 PM

Sorry for all the typos. I was too anxious to post I guess.

But please remember, there are two sides to every coin.

Also, what will be done, will be done---and it has nothing at all to do with God's will from my viewpoint. It is in our hands however.

Art


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM

How Father's feel. When it came time for my son to be drafted I made a pact with my Mate in Australia to have my son go there. Since my mate and I both fought in Viet Nam it seemed the only practical thing to do. My Son's friends all joined up and thought the worse of him because he did not join or get called. Today he has two lovely daughters, is alive, and his friends all tell him how lucky he was to have a father that kept him safe.

I didn't have to send him to Australia but had a ticket in hand in case. He is an "Only Son" and I am fairly well disabled from my service. It kept him out of the fray.

It didn't change how terrified I felt sitting at the TV waiting for word on one of my friends son who was in the barracks in Beirut when it was bombed. Luckily he had just left minutes before the bombing in a transfer to sea duty. Still felt the terror for the days we didn't know.

I still can't look at my friend's Mom without crying - he joined the Marines because I did. And got his head shot off in an ambush. She made the military leave the casket open so the others could see what had happened to him. She is still angry and this happened in 1967.

Fathers feel - we are just trained to hide it better.

I set with one of my work mates this morning for 3 hours. She was having an anxiety attack about the destruction yesterday - she flashed back to when she was a crew chief and was pulling pins out of nuclear weapons - the weapons nearly went to Libya. Anyone remember that one? The folks in the UK were protesting the Americans retaliatory strikes at the time. She talked about driving down the road with protesters on one side lining the road - she went home for the rest of the day.

Am I rambling enough? I have seen the troops here at the base I work on gain resolve to do their job. Young men and women - Fathers and mothers also - leave their children to go do as their country asked. I pray for them all. Peace - Steve


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Thank you, Norton1.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

You are welcome - sometimes I think that Mudcat is the only haven safe enough to say and hear the things that go on. Peace - Steve


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:08 PM

I think we need to always be mindful of the difference between fighting to preserve freedom, and fighting to promote an economic and political advantage over other peoples and other nations.

If my son decided to fight to help preserve freedom in a situation where it clearly is in jeopardy, I would have to respect that decision. However, if the government of the US ever tried to draft him to fight for any other reason, I, personally, would assist him in any way necessary to prevent this from happening.


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:52 PM

Steve.... yes. Unsafe as it is, it is about as safe as it gets.

~S~


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: mmm1a
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:22 AM

Strange I can find a thread that is one of my concerns, I have 5 sons 4 are in their 20's one is seriously considering joining the army. If I could share with you some thing I wrote when I was 13 and had just learned my older brother had been drafted.

I miss my brother like someday I'll miss sons You know I miss everyone oh no wars started again.

there is more but I am finding it ironic that a song I wrote when I was 13 is still has the same meaning when I am 44 . It was a song I had hoped would be a thing of the past. mmm


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM

Tuesday evening, as we watched the news with horror and disbelief, my wife and I hugged our daughter (18) and her boyfriend (21) and I told them, "I had hoped we would give you a better world than this."

jeffp


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Subject: RE: From a Mother's Point of View...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:15 AM

It's been a long time since Americans were able to hand on to their children the "world" they had made for themselves with their own hands (and much, much longer for us Europeans). But we, the man and woman in the street, don't have much to do with making the world; it's governments and, even more so nowadays, big businesses that make the world the way it is. In the West, any way: in some other countries it's the State--whoever that is. Remember the old cartoons of the social pyramid, with the king (or whoever) at the top and the people at the bottom? "We rule you"; "we fool you" (the state Church); "we shoot you" (the army); "we support all".

Sorry--I'm starting to sound like a bit of a lefty, aren't I? But even before the Revolution, a lot of colonies in America were started by folks who wanted to make the world--or their bit of it--a better place for themselves and their children. Today we can only hope our children can look after themselves and stay lucky.

Steve


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