Lest we forget: USA aggression

Subject: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

What has happened is truly terrible.

However, the USA continues to think that it rules the world, and finds it acceptable to bomb 'rogue' nations, as and when it wishes.

Click here to see a small part of what the US airforce has recently been up to.

How many tears have you wept for those innocent families with no father, those innocent mothers with no sons?

Silly me, US bombing is always justified. I forgot that America is always right....

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM

I doubt any of our military ever hijacked planes full of civilians and then used them as bombs against other civilians. The planeload shot down over the Gulf is the closest I can think of, and that happened in an existing war zone where the risks were given. So I wouldn't compare our military actions with acts of terrorism, but with other military actions, like against the Bosnians (we locked our internal imagined enemy up, we didn't slaughter them wholesale). And I don't know if you meant to say this, but I agree that we abdicated our role as leader of the world when we stepped out of the various conflicts we should have been mediating, or enforcing mediation upon. That might not be the duty of the strong where you come from, but I was raised to believe that if you can, you have a responsibility to step in and reduce conflict. If we'd supported the Palistinians and been willing to admit how racist Israel is (sorry, folks), perhaps this might not have happened.

But then again, it probably would have. I don't think whichever leader masterminded this really did it on behalf of Palistine, or against Israel. Fanatics don't always need a reason.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

Lets ignore this "Guest" flamer and hope they go away. All they want is attention. Let's NOT give to them.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:02 PM

Your point being, Guest???

Other than just trying to anger people, of course.

I suppose we should be grateful that your sociopathic behaviour involves cowardly anonymous posting on here, rather than anything more damaging.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 02:15 PM

Lets ignore this "Guest" flamer and hope they go away. All they want is attention. Let's NOT give it to them.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

I am NOT a flamer

I am simply pointing out the fact that over many recent years, the USA has bombed targets which have killed and maimed thousands of innocent people.

Just because they don't get on CNN, doesn't mean that the suffering is any less.

The responses to this thread simply confirm my view that many Americans are totally unquestioning in the fact that they are 'right' all the time

The facts suggest otherwise.

Oh yes, but I'm a 'cowardly guest'

Easier option to hate me than think about the truth, I guess

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

On this one point I do surely agree: you are a cowardly guest!

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

This has already been pointed out on some of the other threads. Most who have posted have struggled with the implications of our own culpability. Perhaps, GUEST, if you have not read all of yesterday's threads, you might give them a look. The points are valid in some respects and the discussions have been well-mannered and thought-provoking, from Mudcatters all over the world.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,sarge
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:21 PM

I think that past U.S. military actions have been featured pretty regularly on CNN. There has been no conspiracy to hide some of those actions, even those that were clearly mistakes. On the other hand you should consider that:

1.The U.S. has never targeted civilians directly. However, if we refused to bomb an enemy because of the possibility of collateral damage, then you would probably be writing your messages in German or Japanese right now.

2.I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers in terms of "thousands" killed and maimed, unless you swallow Iraqui propogand hook, line, and sinker.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 03:24 PM

Well I'm not hiding behind the guest label, but whatever guests motives are, he/she does have a valid point. The west turns a blind eye to its own atrocities. The deaths of foreigners do not hurt us so grievously. We may not commit single atrocities on this scale (at least not recently), but we murder just as cruelly. Over one million children have died as a direct result of US and britain led sanctions against Iraq. Our unchecked globalisation and hammering of poor countries (by refusing to cancel the debt) has cause untold suffering. We prop up murderous regimes that suit our political ends.

Maybe the combination of all these and more is enough to be seen as an act of war against some peoples, and some extremists are retaliating.

This is in no way a justification of what has happened, but a plea not to answer evil with more evil, and a plea to look at our own culpability in the deaths of millions.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM

I'm not a super patriot, but lest we forget:

Who started the Red Cross? Clara Barton - - American. Who started Habitat for Humanity? Also an American. Who started Heifer Project International - - an American farmer. Who started the Peace Corps? John F. Kennedy. Who started Vista - - same as above. Which country offers up use of its overseas military bases when disaster strikes that country? You got it! Who is the main supporter of Doctors Without Borders? The AMA. Which country maintains the Project Hope surgical ship? Three guesses. Who chiefly bailed out and rebuilt Japan and Germany after we defeated them? Take a shot at that one.

No we're not always right. We make some huge mistakes. The School of the Americas being one. But as - - Individuals - - ( not the government ) we're some of the biggest hearted people on the planet. American individuals don't always follow what our government tells us to. That's one of the differences between ourselves and others who live in less tolerant situations. And sometimes our government IS right.

We'll still welcome folks of all ilks and stripes to our counrty.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

I suggest that anyone who doubts that the US would target civilians should go to the DIA website and search the recently declassified documents. Here you will find that the US military knew that targeting the Iraqi civilian infrastructure (this is expressly forbidden by the Geneva and Hague conventions, the Nuremberg Charter and the laws of armed conflict) would lead to widespread epidemics of cholera and other waterborne diseases. They also knew that children were especially vunerable. And yet the military REPEATEDLY targeted water purification, sewage treatment plants and irrigation systems. The sanctions have been so stringent that even water purification tablets and ambulances have been denied. This has led to the death of over a million people (over half of them children) who had nothing to do with the invasion of Kuwait. Or how 'bout this example. By June 1945,the Truman administration knew that the Japanese were looking for a face-saving way to surrender. In May 1945, Hirohito dismissed the militarists in the cabinet that had gotten Japan into the war. Intercepted messages between Tokyo and the Japanese ambassador to Moscow (of which Truman had full knowledge) read as follow: July 12: "It is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war ..." July 13: "I send Ando ... to communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy carrying with him the personal letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war." July 21: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the Imperial will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to the war through the good offices of the Soviet government." This note also reveals that a conference between the Emperor's emissary and the Soviet Union was sought in preparation for contacting the US and Great Britain. There were plenty of other intercepts. Truman (who already knew) was approached at the Potsdam conference by Stalin with the offer. Truman brushed him off. The list of Truman's top commanders who opposed the use of the atomic bombs is impressive: General Douglas MacArthur, Truman's chief of staff, Admiral William Leahy, chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Ernest J. King, Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz, Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, Rear Admiral Lewis L. Strauss, commanding general of the US Army Air Forces Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, General Claire Chennault of the Flying Tigers. Army Stategic Air Forces Commander Carl Spatz and Army Air Force General Curtis LeMay. These men all challenged the military necessity argument. Among Truman's advisers, Secretary of State Stimson, Asst. Secretary of War John McCloy, former Ambassador to Japan Joseph Grew, Navy Undersecretary Ralph Bard, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, all took issue with the decision. When General Dwight D. Eisenhower was approached by Leslie Groves (Manhattan Project JCS liason) with information on the atomic bomb test, he replied that it wasn't necessary, that Japan was preparing to surrender. In 1963, Eisenhower told 'Newsweek' that "it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing". Hiroshima and Nagasaki had no military value. They were purely civilian targets, chosen because they were the only two cities that hadn't been razed by firebombings. Half a million innocent civilians were incinerated or died slow painful deaths from radiation poisoning. The idea that the US hasn't targeted civilians is an uninformed one. I could site a dozen more (going back to the near annihilation of Native Americans) with detailed backup information. With all that said, NOTHING can justify what was done yesterday. Targeting innocent people is criminal and MUST be punished. It must not be done as retaliation or revenge (This would only drag us into a cycle of violence where no one wins), but it must be done.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:32 PM

Nimitz was not a 5 star admiral. Only Leahy was. Why didn't you mention the fire bombing of Dresden?

War is war as in all is fair in... this is not war, it's the worst kind of cowardice.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM

Enough?

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:45 PM

the arrant stupidity of trying to paint ANY 'nation' with a broad brush of generalization astounds me!.."Americans" are not aggressors, and by & large, neither are most American leaders!...in this complex world, mistakes are made, decisions regretted ...and sometimes, individuals with bad judgement get into positions of power. This happens everywhere!

But there are Iraqis who are NOT in agreement with Saddam, Palestinians who would NEVER shoot Israelis, Israelis who would try to be just and generous with Palestinians, Irish on both side who hate the killing and do NOT participate, and Chinese who are crying for a more democratic, free society.

WHY IN HELL do idiots use incidents like this to point fingers and stir up highly debatable points when ALL minds and efforts should be directed towards solving problems and easing pain & suffering?

It seems that all too many people...on BOTH sides of the issue...would rather hate and criticize.

"Aggression" is a petty, ill-chosen word for whatever the US might have done...and even the correct words are best held until a RATIONAL debate can be held.

'guest' does not indicate which countries he/she thinks are above reproof and never err in the conduct of their affairs....or what might be done to make this sorry world a bit better!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM

Nothing (in my opinion) justifies what has hapenend these last two days. By all means if you have an argument with a nation take it to the battlefield if you must...but don't take it to the innocents.

This was bloody murder on a celestial scale and may God forgive the people who did it (or organised it) ......coz I can't.

Spot

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Roughyed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:18 PM

My daughter is in New York on holiday with her boyfriend from Manchester, England and was on her way to the World Trade Centre when she saw the plane hit. If she had been half an hour earlier or the plane had been half an hour later I could have lost the dearest person in my life. She is not responsible for America's foreign policy any more than Iraqi civilians are responsible for their government's.

I'm as political as the next guy, but surely this is a time for mourning all the innocent people killed, not scoring atrocity for atrocity.

I have watched those buildings collapse on TV again and again and in my mind seen my daughter under the rubble or jumping or burning to death. I just want it to stop. PLEASE

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:06 PM

There has been much wrong done on all sides in the past few decsdes. If, however, you mention this during a war you will be accused of being a "traitor"...maybe even imprisoned or executed...for simply stating what is true.

That's why truth is the first casualty of war.

One learns to be careful in such circumstances. When one must fear to state an unpleasant truth, can one really claim to be living in "freedom"?

- LH

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:20 PM

Guest I suggest you find other fields to plow.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:41 PM

When one must fear to state an unpleasant truth, can one really claim to be living in "freedom"? Try human nature for size, Little Hawk; it is not just a peculiarity of nations. Empathy and common sense stills your tongue. If it does not, there is a penalty in it for you.

An example: if a dear friend confides in you that her husband beats her, do you stand there and berate her for things she did in the past? No. I have no doubt that the first thing you do is try to help her deal with this particular problem.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:13 PM

I assume I'm one of the idiots Bill D refers to in his post. The intention of my post was certainly not to point fingers and stir up highly debatable points, or hate and critize, but as to a response to earlier postings denying US culpability in civilian deaths. I admit I have a tendency to go into detail, but this is sometimes necessary when debunking common mythologies. (Read 'Killing Hope', by William Blume for detailed information on dozens of US military interventions since WW2).

I agree with Bill that minds and efforts should be directed towards solving problems and easing pain and suffering. Part of this process includes understanding why these people would commit such an atrocity. These terrorist felt they had serious grievances, real or imagined, that justified their actions. Unless we can either come to terms with these grievances or convince these people that they are baseless, then we will surely see more events like yesterdays.

I'll restate. NOTHING justifies the WTC attacks, but if we are to understand and ultimately prevent anything like this from ever happening again, we'd better be ready to look long and hard at how the rest of the world (and especially the Arab world) sees us. If we don't, things could get a lot, and I mean a LOT worse.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: toadfrog
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:19 PM

"GUEST" IS AN OBVIOUS TROLL. DON'T FEED HIM.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:35 PM

AKRick is not a troll, seems to me. He makes a cogent point. Truth doesn't work when you divide it into thirds.

But each of these incidents has a context. If they are taken in context, the moral indignation will be less strident. It is grievous to do wrong, no matter what side you are on, which goes without saying.

Let me remind you that there is only one nation on this planet which was actually conceived in liberty, built as best as could be imagined to protect liberty and to balance liberty so that it was widespread.

There is only one nation on this planet that prays regularly to the Infinite that its good be "crowned with brotherhood". That publically commits itself to be the land of the free. These are not trifles or hypocritical gestures, no matter how short we fall of these aims.

I am not trying to retreat into jingoistic palliatives, here; I am trying to point out what it is that gives the United States its flavor and informs its decisions, for the most part.

As for the specious references to the Kuwaiti no-fly-zone, I think we made decent offers for the cessation of hostility with Iraq in the first place. We didn't ask for a lot. Just to stay in their borders and stop invading others. Somehow this was a terrible imposition and insult. But it was an imposition that would have been completely unnecessary if the recipient had not violated international treaties, codes, and the peace of nations in the first place.

A

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:37 PM

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: sophocleese
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

Its a tricky thing. Victims need support. At this moment America is a victim and needs support. They need the support to heal. I willingly and freely give that support to those suffering in the USA and around the world because of the actions taken yesterday.

My kids fight and one of them gets hurt. I hug them and tend to hurt. I do NOT encourage the child to go out and kick the other one as payback and I do not stand by and let that happen. I will not support efforts on the part of the USA to use their newly acquired victim status to create more victims. Justice and healing I will work for but not revenge dressed up to mimic it. Any show piece retaliation would be as bad as yesterday's atrocity.

Yes America has blood on its hands from many places, they are not alone in this. It only needs to be pointed out again because of efforts by some to paint Americans as entirely peace loving and lily white. They aren't. The USA is very powerful country and it didn't get that way by accident or act of God. It got that way because people killed, injured and attacked many others that they saw as interfering with the interests of American power. American Power, not the freedom of normal Americans trying to live their lives out ina comfortable fashion. People trying to live their lives out in comfortable situations have had them cave in because of actions of the American Govt and some of its citizens to deprive their governments of power.

Yesterday's action was an attack on that power. It also killed thousands of innocent people. It has been universally condemned as a horrific action. I agree. I do not want to see another horrific act that kills innocent people. So I speak out against the white-washing of the American people that could lead to another atrocity while simultaneously offering support for their efforts to heal.

Peace

Sophocleese

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:52 PM

Sorry. I've got to reset my cookie on my home computer. Since I cancelled most of my AOL services I appear as a guest. "Guest" who started this thread in no way fits the definition of a troll despite his/her failure to post a phony name--as many of you do, including the one who called me a traitor scum yesterday. As several others have noted before, "Guest"'s statement is not without validity, and was certainly not a flame.

Traitor scum that I am, I agree that we should examine our own country's record for what motivates hatred for us in other countries and avoid responding to atrocity with atrocity.

--seed(Charles Kratz)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:24 PM

Incidentally, here's where "lest we forget" comes from, Kipling's Recessional. Worth reading again.

(And, to avoid a common misunderstanding "lesser breeds" here meant other Euuropean imperial powers, primarily Germany)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,--seed
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM

Not, of course, that the British had a higher opinion of the inconvenient people of their colonies, any more than we have of ours.

--seed

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:55 PM

As bad as our country is, surely we have the right to seek redress for this atrocity.
After all, it is an established point of law that a hooker can be raped. And rape, as well as being inconsiderate, is illegal.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM

who does NOT have blood on their hands? Lichtenstein? Andorra?

" The USA is very powerful country and it didn't get that way by accident ".....sorry, but that IS how it got that way!

If this land had been settled by China or Spain or Denmark or Hottentots... instead of by 'mostly' people from the UK, the very fact of it being large, temperate in climate and rich in resources would have made it a world power...and we can debate forever how other cultures would have used this area had THEY by accident of history been thrust into the world stage as stewards of such a place!....(yes, I know all about the Native Americans and how they were cheated & mistreated...would others have done better by them? Perhaps....)

The fact is, the USA is SO big, with SO many issues and so many cultures and ideas mixed into its history, and so much diversity in its various states, it's a wonder it functions at all...but MOST of us really do TRY

No one is trying to 'whitewash' anything right now, real OR perceived...we are just trying to comprehend how ***ANYONE** can process reality so grotesquely as to think we deserved THAT....innocent civilians destroyed en masse to make some arcane socio/political/religious point!!! How could ANYONE think they would win a point with those tactics? and how DARE anyone suggest that with the smoke and rubble of that cowardly, hate-filled attack still filling our TV screens, that we sit back and reflect on our sins?....there will be plenty of time for analysis and recriminations...right now we are busy...we have dead to bury...as soon as we can find them.........

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:32 AM

Guest

I committed no agression against a foreign nation. Perhaps the person I elected allowed it to happen in my name. But I dropped no bombs. And now murderous persons of an unknown power have taken me to task for crimes I am not guilty of. They came as cowards and forced the unknowing and innocent to become pawns in their bizarre game.

In the course of time our government has much to atone for. I suppose so do we as we claim our democracy grows from its people and we the people elect what we hope is our best and and brightest. And if they fall short of our high mark then it is up to us to change out the representative who do a poor job for those that do a right job.

But nobody in New York dropped a bomb in Iraq. No one on the planes supported directly any repressive governments for the sake of oil or rubber or sugar. Let the world seek redress for crimes in a world court. This was an act of cowardly murder. Lets not some of us make it cleaner for ourselves by saying "We had it coming." "We have been so highhanded and committed atrocities ourselves."

Horseshit!

Somebody came to our house and killed some of our family. And some of us people here in this forum think we should look at what atrocities we have done to the world and accept it as proper punishment.

If esitimates go as expected, this one mad act will kill as many people as died in the whole of the US involment in Viet Nam. This is the work of cowardly evil.

If you believe in the UN and the world court then take the United States to court and seek redress for our crimes. Thats the honest thing to do. But its cowards who strike from hiding and kill children and their parents and people who are working. And then set out again to kill the people who are offering mercy to the injured. If this is the work of a few people who profess to follow the Koran and serve Allah then they do not understand their own faith and they dirty the names of all who know the teachings of the Koran for the wise and beautiful belief it gives much of the world.

I can't finish this. I am so mad I can't carry a thought any further. If you feel you have to blame The United States for this go ahead, but blame yourselves first. Don't blame me, my family or the people on the planes or the people murdered in New York. They probably weren't willing to die for your idea of global retribution.

Don Meixner,

Thats my name out front, I'm not ashamed of it. Flame me if you want to and do it from hiding if you have to, but think of the company you are in as you do so.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:44 AM

Don, the grievance that the muslim fanatics have against us is our governments support of Israel. Thats all.
I agree with you in the main and, so no one will think that I'm hiding behind an alias,

Newbern Winfield Johnson.

"troll"

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:52 AM

Hello Newbern,

Its my great pleasure to meet you.

Don

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Gypsy
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:53 AM

Guest, you paint with a broad brush. What makes you think that i don't grieve, and weep for bombings elsewhere? Or for pain elsewhere. I cried as much for Kabul,as i did the east coast. I deplore pain, and viciousness everywhere. Get off my back!

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Skeptic
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:02 PM

Don,

Your statement: I committed no aggression against a foreign nation. Perhaps the person I elected allowed it to happen in my name

Brought to mind an arguement from another site: that there is some kind of "justification" for attacks against US civilians because of the acts taken in their name by elected officials.

Which led me to this line of thought:

If, the American voter I bears some of the burden of guilt for what my elected representatives allowed to happen in other countries. (in the way of atrocities) and thus the attack had some moral justification, then those who elected Saddam bear the same responsibility for his genocide against the Kurds, invasion of Kuwait and so on.

Therefore, if the attack against American civilians is justified because of their tacit compliancy in various alleged atrocities, the US response against Iraqi civilians is likewise justified.

How nice it would be if logic and sophistry could make the pain, the fear and the sense of lose go away.

BTW, John Dale Johnson, related by blood (and I think stuck with him by an ancient family curse) to Troll, who is my big brother.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

A pleasure to meet both of you Johnson boys, presumably the same ones about whom the traditional song was written:

"Step up pretty girls, don't be afraid! Step up pretty girls, don't be afraid.."

There -- music has been served.

Don, I am behind your feelings completely. No individual can "be" the United States in the way that these terrorists have tried to claim them to be.

There was a day-care center in the WTC, also.

The thing is, I believe that the rhetoric of Islam rabblerousers is not truthful. Their brief against us is that we dominate the world and have plenty, while their people struggle. Not all of them -- not those in the oil-rich nations allied with the West. The simple fact is that the United states does not name Islamism as an offense, but as an exercise of natural freedom. This is not consistent with the characterization of the United states as the Great Satan of the Universe.

Another thought. While could serve the people of Palestine, the people of Afghanistan, the people of Pakistan better, I do not believe we have levied atrocities or major offenses against them.

And if their issues are the well-being of their lives and economies, they have as much liberty to improve those things as we do, legally and economically.

I have scratched my head for two days trying to understand where our humongous crimes lie. And I am currently persuaded that we have been characterized as "Evil" by a psychotic mind-set. Under those cuircumstances I do not believe striving to communicate, striving to understand one's offenses, is the right path. The righht path is to disarm and dissolve the psychotic group which is putting one's life at risk.

Until the network under Ben Laden is dust, however it is acheived, we will not be able to put paid to this account, not because of blood-hunger but because of survival.

A

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Don, by golly, at long last you post a message I agree with (scare you?) Good post.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Nice to meet you John, how come you got the normal name?

:-)))))

Don

There can be no justification for cowardly murder, no matter who commits it or for what purposes.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Skeptic
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:43 PM

Don,

Becasue, of course, I'm the (relatively) normal one. But I'm working on that.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

I would never presume to deny that the US that I love has never done its share of damage to the world. I would never presume to deny that some of that damage was misguided and Just Plain Wrong.

War is hell, boys. ---- William T. Sherman

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM

Our great crime is that we support Israel and so have great influence in the Middle East. The problem is, and always has been, who controls Jerusalem?
The city is holy to three of the worlds great religions. Jewish tradition says that the Mesiah will come and the Temple of Soloman will be restored. The Temple stood on Temple Mount, which is now the site of the Dome of the Rock and the El Aqsa Mosque; the place where Mohammed ascended to heaven.
If the Temple is re-built, the Mosque goes.
Do you begin to see the problem?
BTW, the version of Johnson Boys that I learned from my Granny went
Johnson boys, raised in the ashes
Never knowed how to court a maid.
Run away and hide their faces
Sight of a pretty girl makes them afraid.
repeat last line four times.
Not very flattering I'm afraid.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: MAV
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM

We've had our share of president who had no clue regarding proper use of the military. McNamara finally went public, crying and apologising for his ego and pressuring Johnson to pursue the Viet Nam War.

We've also had those who believed we should "Walk softly and carry a big stick".

I hope our current president can garner the support and have the resolve to carry out the war on terrorism. This involves no single nationality but rather the individual elements of "Islamic Fundementalism" which can come from any area in the middle east, and the nations that provide them safe harbor.

The terrorists involved in NYC came from the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Egypt I believe and not Afganistan. Many of them lived in the US for over a year.

Here's another perspective on America's role in the world.

THANK YOU CANADA!

mav out

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:44 PM

So do the Palestinians want us to actively support their cause, or do they want us simply to not support Israel? I will fully admit ignorance and naivete in the ongoing situations in the Middle East. I have a difficult time understanding why people can't just leave one another alone.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: martoons
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

I know this is silly, but what ever happened to single combat. We who value the past and cultural history should see what kind of response we could get suggesting perhaps a tag team match tween 'W', bin Laden, Blair and Hussein. Let's get ready to rumble!!!! Now THAT'S what I call ultimate fighting!

G

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Dixit
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM

Folks,

Let me first offer my condolences for your loss. Loss of life always is horrible, especially when it is civilian. I have recently lived and worked in the USA for some time, and while I find the obsession with money a bit insane, that is cultural. After all, I can sound awful Old-Worldy when I hit my stride and that can be waxing too. Most US citizens I have met have been absolutely splendid people, usually willing to give you the benefit of a doubt, and a time of the day, which many of my own people are not. So on my personal scale, US Citizens rank high.

But we are obviously at a cross-roads here. As you all know, things have to constantly ... improve to get noticed, to avoid becoming routine. In the 1990s, the IRA bombings in Britain, the ETA killings in Spain and the Terrorist actions in Japan and France (typically one of the Corsican splinter fractions) only made headlines in their native country. Fairly smallscale things. A couple of dead, a grieving widow (or husband) some damanged property. Fairly routine. And now this: A minimum of 4,000 people dead and the toll likely higher. In a city, that even for us had the stripings of being untouchable... it is not going to end here, you know. What do you want to loose next time?

If we assume that Bin Laden is behind this, he will probably die fairly soon. That is one down. Will that stop terror against you, do you think? How long before the first A-bomb takes out a major US city? Sure, you strengthen your counter-intelligence. Bomb Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq back to the stone age. Help the Israelis push the last Palestinian into the Mediterranean. It provides good target practice and should give you a fair assurance of all major centers of known terrorism being flattened. 10 years down the road, the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty falls due to miniature a-bombs being placed nicely by terrorist agents been dormant in the US for 10 years and wholly respectable. Hollywood gone as well just so that LA should not feel safe.

As long as the cause for terrorism is not gone, it will persist. Unless you put all your formiddable talents to solving the _roots_ of the evil (and borrow whatever you need from the rest of us), it will get worse. Has the death sentence meant that no criminal in the US wish to risk it? It probably scares off a lot, but ... Death Row still has occupants, right? Same thing with Terrorism, unless I miss my guess. What to do?

I don't know. I just hope you can pull if off and still be you - remain the land of the free and the home of the brave. If possible.

One last thing: About Clara Barton - she did not found the Red Cross, only the American Red Cross. The International Red Cross was created by a Swiss business man, Henry Dunant in 1863, after he had been a witness to one of the (then) bloodiest battles by Solferino in Italy. Clara Barton, a U.S. nurse, came to Europe around 1869, where she learned about the Red Cross. When Barton returned to the United States in 1873, she began her crusade for the American Red Cross, which was founded in 1881, and Barton served as its first president.

She was a truly remarkable woman, would be even today, but she is 'only' the founder of the American Red Cross. But it was she who got it to be active in peacetime as well as in wartime, and that is quite an achievement :)

Best Wishes,

Dix

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:36 PM

Well Dix, if we have enough time to develop it, we're going to have a missile shield to protect us against that atom bomb.

Mav: thanks for posting that editorial. Someone emailed that to me today.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:39 PM

Doug,

It truly wonders me how we have agreed so seldom when we think so much alike. Scare me. no. I think we mostly agree where it matters.

Don

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

Hardly DougR, no one is going to be so convenient as to try and attack the USA in a way that it expects. To use the jargon, the whole point of asymmetric force is that a few individuals can achieve maximum impact with minimum effort compared to the defence capabilities (and hence spending) of the target.

Is US customs willing or able to disrupt commerce by opening and examining every container, parcel etc sent to the US? The US spends more per year on its intelligence and counter espionage services than the GDP of most countries, but they were unable to forsee let alone prevent the attacks two days ago. Of course there is now a great slamming of stable doors, and no doubt some of those involved will be caught, but don't think for a minute that yopu can kill a hydra by cutting of its head.

In this and other threads people noticably 'Spaw and bseed (welcome back Charles!) have pointed out that to defeat any opposition whether in war or paly, you need to understand them. The West, not just the US still fails to do this, and will continue to so at their peril. Name calling may be a natural reaction, and good for PR, but the lat thing these people are is cowards, deliberately flying a plane into its target at the cost of your life is the kind of action that gets VC's and CMH's when its our people.

Like everyone else I would like to see all terrorists removed from circulation, but there are two problems. Unless the 'cause' real or percieved is addressed someone will always take their place. Secondly how do we define a terrorist? I doubt if there is a country in the world that has not at some time supported people or organisations that have used 'terrorist' tactics. If the people who carried out this attack go first, who is next? UNITA?, PIRA?, Chechin rebels?, Indonesian troops? Please don't think I'm suggesting that we should not make a start, but at least let's be honest and consistent, and have a plan which goes beyond the immediate.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:11 PM

Why is everbody using their real name in this thread?
John Evans (john in hull)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Peg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:33 AM

missile shield???? missile shield????? are you kidding???

Pigs might fly some day, too, but I am not going to bet on it.

In the meantime I would suggest avoiding all atomic bombs.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM

Doug, I'm afraid that the missile shield will be inadequate. There are now nukes that can fit in a suitcase. These, not conventional missile-delivered warheads, are the tools of terrorists.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

Yep, Troll, I do understand that danger can be dressed in Brooks Brother's suits. But I do believe that the technology is available, or soon will be to provide a workable missel shield.

And Peg, my friend, when the first one is launched by an unfriendly country, I sincerely hope you are somewhere beneith that shield!

Pete: I'm not convinced that the problem is understanding the enemy. That's simple. The enemy is wrong. We are right. If you doubt that, present your argument to any of the people in New York who are awaiting word about the whereabouts of their loved ones.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: heric
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:13 AM

I retract previous statements in line with DougR that the perpetrators' motives were irrelevant. This reversal is a result of reading a short item from a local editorialist about the Taliban and Bin Laden's "motives." According to this guy, both have stated simply and clearly that they want no western influence in predominantly Muslim regions. Therefore, the more Palestinians hate the U.S., and the more westerners hate them, the more Bin Laden (if guilty), has succeeded in his prime motivation.

Conversely, cooperation and interaction with predominantly Muslim regions defeats Bin Laden's motivations. (If he's guilty. . . . )

I had previously, not having a clue what he was about, believed that he wanted us to "understand" or perhaps respect the Palestinian concerns, and be receptive to their interests. I believed that he communicated in a manner that should cause us not to pay any heed to their interests. But if the editorialist is correct, . . .

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM

Sorry, IHurricane, are you saying you agree with me, or you did agree with me, but no longer do, or you didn't agree with me, but now you do? I'm confused.

However, don't be overly influenced by what some column writer says. It's only his/her opinion. I'm sure you can form an opinon of your own. Reading other's opinions is helpful though, I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: heric
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:42 AM

Sorry, it must be very late. I did, like you, think that motive is irrelevant. The only thing that mattered was to curtail the innapropriate behavior. Now, however, I do see that understanding the enemy does have relevance to deciding the appropriate future actions.

I did not get this from the editorialist. In fact, he missed this same point, as I recall. All I got from him is a statement that the primary motivation guiding the Taliban, or at least Bin Laden, is to rid Muslim regions of all Western influence. Reasoning from that: he hopes to achieve the foregoing by fostering intercultural animosity (West v. Muslim), and his goal was NOT, as I had assumed, to foster recognition of or respect for the interests of dispossessed Palestinians. His, goal, if the writer is correct, is to inflame the base passions of the members of BOTH cultures.

Or at least so it seems tonight. . . .

(And assuming he was involved.)

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Pete M
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM

Doug,

I think you missed my point. No one I know is suggesting that terrorists of whatever persuation are other than 'wrong', nor are we debating a moral stance, and I am certainly not advocating either turning the other cheek or inaction. I stand by however that an effective long term response requires consideration of the reasons behind the attack in the minds of those who planned and carried it out not from our viewpoint

Pete M

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Fiolar
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:58 AM

A little news item which has hardly been noticed. Less than four months ago the the US donated $43m to Afghanistan in aid. It consisted of $5m in food, 65,000 tons of wheat and $10m for food security programmes administered by non-governmental organisations. It followed donations of $114m the previous year. (item courtesy of the Guardian). Talk about biting the hand that feeds. In this case, the terrorists seem to have swallowed the whole arm.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:20 AM

Trying to understand why something has happened something isn't the same as justifying it. That's a simple enough idea, but it seems remarkably hard for people to understand it sometimes.

If you want to stop something happening again, it helps to understand why it happened in the first place.

If a fuse blows because there is some wiring fault, and you just fix the fuse with something like a nail that won't blow you are likely to end up with the building burning down.

And blaming the ordinary people of Afghanistan for the faults of the people who run the place is a bit like blaming the inmates of Auschwitz for the crimes of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:24 AM

Doug, a short time ago, there was program on tv, I forget which channel, that had a group of scientists who worked on the Star Wars thing. They all agreed it was a multi million dollar boondoggle. They said it did not work because it CAN NOT work. There are insumountable problems with it. In my opinion, it was one of Reagans "feel good, do nothing" programs. The uninformed loved it.

Seems to me that this latest attack proves once and for all that Star Wars is obsolete. We are guarding the walls, but, the enemy is inside the fort!

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 07:33 AM

RE; Star Wars. Reagan was sold a bill of goods by Edward Teller. Read the book; "Junk Science". It tells the whole story.
I believe that Reagan was sincere in his belief that Star Wars was the answer to our defense needs. He based his belief on the word of one of the worlds pre-eminent scientists. He didn't come up with the idea.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM

On PBS last night we watched Arthur Kent's program about Afghanistan 20 years ago, vs. today. It was pretty stunning. Afghanistan at one time was a fairly liberal country - women worked and went to school and had real careers. When the Taliban came to power, that was no more. The playing of music and flying of kites is against the law. Kites. Now why in the sam hill would flying a kite be a violation of some religious belief?

Opium processors and sellers are allowed to operate as long as they pay taxes to the Taliban, but no music, and no kites.

It's not about religion. It's about absolute power behind the guise of religion, and about who can make some money off it and who can't.

There is a small resistance but they have few resources, and most of the other people are just too scared to do anything.

There's a force of Religiou Police who will arrest and imprison anyone at the drop of a hat.

The people in charge there are despots, and the people who live there pay the price. It seems to be that way with several other countries, too.

It makes me very sad.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: heric
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:23 PM

DougR: It doesn't change the analysis much. Severe measures to curtail the inapproriate acts are still warranted. But it clarifies the need not to misdirect aggression, political or otherwise, against the larger groups which the terrorists purport to represent. While it seems at first that cooperation with those groups after a terrorist act serves the terrorists, understanding (if it's true), that the terrorists' true intent is to foster divisiveness, that they don't *want* anything but destruction itself, leads to a conclusion that at first seems couter-intuitive (or at least it was to me.) Mr. McGrath states it well.

Kim C: We sure do have a problem, don't we. Afghanistan is populated with hardened people, to put it mildly. If moral resolve ends up dictating that we must attack the "nation" of Afghanistan (such as it is), well, . . . No video, missile-cam couch-potato spectator war, this one.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:33 PM

Says Amos: Let me remind you that there is only one nation on this planet which was actually conceived in liberty, built as best as could be imagined to protect liberty and to balance liberty so that it was widespread.

Actually, no. For some strange reason some folks in the U.S. think that they invented Constitutions, and hold the patent on democracy. Not true. In fact, Iceland beat them to the punch by quite some time on these (not to mention the Greek democracies). And the idea that balancing "liberty" without balancing opporunity would seem quaint to some.

Says Amos: There is only one nation on this planet that prays regularly to the Infinite that its good be "crowned with brotherhood". That publically commits itself to be the land of the free. These are not trifles or hypocritical gestures, no matter how short we fall of these aims.

Actually, that's not true (in either respect). More rather provincial and hubristic thinking. But were it true that we pray "regularly to the Infinite that its good be 'crowned with brotherhod'", I'm still not sure that's a feather in its cap. There are plenty of places where people fervently pray for what is "good". They sometimes have a different opinion of what "good" should be sought.

Says Amos: I am not trying to retreat into jingoistic palliatives, here; I am trying to point out what it is that gives the United States its flavor and informs its decisions, for the most part.

True to some extent. But the jingoism here (or at least the blinkered take on the rest of the world) _is_ apparent here. While we pride ourselves on what we think important, and exalt these things, they come at a price. I don't say that the price isn't worth it; just that others have reached different decisions, and some are not the worse off for it.

Yet to me, the recent events have shown perhaps an ominous willingness on our part to throw those very freedoms and those very ideals away, when times get hard. Perhaps we say the words with more fervour nowadays, bt I'm not sure we really exalt these things as much as we think we do.

Sincerely,

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM

Durn, Kim. I missed that program and I would have loved to see it. I went to the video store yesterday thinking I might pick up a video about that country but didn't have anything.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:50 PM

Ann, the Greek "democracy" was restricted to Athenian-born men of property. Women had no vote and, in fact,were not allowed to leave the house alone.
The bulk of the inhabitants were salves who did all the work, thus allowing Plato, Socrates, etc to propound their philosophical theories to the well-to-do young men of the city.
Iceland did indeed have a form of parliamentary government (the Althing) early on, but I believe you'll find that the oldest parliament is the House of Keys on the Isle of Man.

troll ***I love obscure historical facts.***

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:17 AM

Athenian democracy was a pretty narrow sort of democracy, true enough. As was the slave-owning women-excluding democracy of the new American republic.

Bragging competitively about the past is not very helpful. The intersting thing is to try to understand how societies can change so that they become better and freer. Or worse and more enslaved, which can also happen.

There was a time when the Islamic world was a far more tolerant and open and cultured society in many ways than Europe.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:16 AM

Coming a bit late to this thread...

DougR, could you explain to me, please, how a missile defence shield that is supposed to protect us from missiles being launched from other countries and traveling to us through the sky can protect us from nuclear devices that are carried to their target by a person who is carrying them in a suitcase?

I know I'm not very quick on the uptake sometimes, but I have to admit that one's got me baffled.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

Well, Carol C., it won't! Does that unbaffle you? If not, please let me know and I'll try to be more clear about it. **B**

A missile defense shield will be designed to protect us from missiles fired from other countries.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:02 PM

I used to be a missle shield proponent, prior to Tuesday.

Short of building an inpenatrable "dome" over the continental USA, it's a waste of time given the destructive capabilities of even just one warhead getting through. One nucelar warhead's destructive capabilities would be vastly more extensive than what we saw on Tuesday in New York.

I think now, the money and resources that would have been committed to a project like this, would be much better spent eradicting the terrorist threats in the U.S.A. and elsewhere, which could mean not only destroying the terrorists' bases of operation and as many members of those cells as possible, but also through more humanitarian efforts toward 3rd world countries where many of these terrorist ideaolgies first take route. Both things need to be done.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:50 PM

Ok. I understand. So I guess the ease with which someone could deliver a nuclear device to a target without launching it as a missile from another country if they really wanted to, makes the missile shield concept pretty irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 08:19 AM

I bumped into this quote from Martin Luther King, "The old eye for an eye philosophy ends up leaving everybody blind." Also, I just saw in a British newswire that US Special Forces had landed in Pakistan. Cover your eyes.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:32 PM

No. I don't think so, Carol. No single form of defense is going to be adequate to protect us from terrorists. Were a foreign enemy to launch a missile filled with germs, for example, and strike a major city. Would you say, "Gee, I thought they'd use an airplane?"

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:48 PM

I guess my point is that if someone wanted to deliver a weapon of mass destructon, and we had a missile defence shield, they could very easily find another way to deliver their weapon. So the shield would not serve to deter, or to protect. It would only make aggressors look for other alternatives. We saw a very compelling example of this on Tuesday.

We need to put our resourses into things that work. Not things that only serve to make us feel more secure.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 08:14 PM

Kipling's Recessional, referred to halfway from here to the beginning of this thread, is set to Folkingham in The Cyber Hymnal, with Melita as an alternative; personally I suspect Melita is better known.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the tidbit on the Isle of Man.

I didn't say that Iceland was first; nor did I say that democracy in Greece was ideal (but if the comments of the two posters on the limited sense of Grecian democracy are to be taken to heart, I'd point out that we had similar problems with the "democracy" we "invented" in 1776).

My point was that too many people in the U.S. have this ides that we are the "the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world", as one person would have us believe. It is this kind of thinking that gets us into trouble, perhaps _more_ that any resentments stirred up by any actual perceived advantages we have in such respects. Our arrogance and hubris, and our insisting that "our way" is the "right way" -- when others have found similar or identical civil structures, or even other solutions that they find more acceptable to their beliefs -- is certainly not helpful in creating dialogue and understanding. Yet beyond Bush's _prior_ "It's my way or the highway" approach, now such as Cheney and Wolfowitz seem to be saying "Accede now to my boast, or you'll soo be toast". We are _demanding_ that other coutries comply without compromise to _our_ demands, or they will be attacked (one wag I know suggested that the state of Florida forthwith be "ended" [in the words of Wolfowitz] for of their years of "support" to the terrorists living down there). And what will be the end of that line of thought?

"Where have all the flowers gone. . . ."

Sing it through with me, folks.

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM

Who is the brighest beacon of freedom and opportunity in the world then. Our Democracy may not be perfect, but the last time that i checked, it was still the best game in town. Methinks that some of you seem to revel in misunderstanding the vast difference between pride and arrogance.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:34 PM

Re: GUEST,Captain America

who says that "Our Democracy may not be perfect, but the last time that i checked, it was still the best game in town."

Not necessarily so. You might ask for _who_ it is such a bastion of 'freedom and opportunity'.

The United States has one of the highest income disparities of the developed world, and many in the United States don't even have the medical coverage that _all_ those lucky enough to live in many European states and Canada have.

For some groups in the U.S., infant mortality lags far behind other developing states, and even approcahes rates seen only in the third world.

And right now, we seem intent on destroying some of those sole remaining beacons of the wisdom of the Founders, willing to forget the protections of our rather unique Bill of Rights, in a possibly misguided effort for more "security".

One person has been shot dead in this land of "freedom and opportunity" for having the poor judgement of _looking_ somewhat Arabic (he wasn't), and that is probably just the start.

_Our_ preachers have been saying that we _asked_ for this precisely due to our exercising and demonstrating our freedoms, thus (in their mind) calling down the wrath of God on us.

Yes, there is a difference between pride and arrogance. I hope you find it soon.

-- Arne Langsetmo

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: sophocleese
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM

Personally I prefer Canada to the US. I get annoyed when particularly Canadian ways of doing things come under fire from Americans because they are not American ways of doing things. I like having Health Care and fewer guns.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:23 PM

Well, Sophocleese, it is my sincere hope that you live in Canada! One should live where one is happiest!

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Edward
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

Bill D wrote: >..we are just trying to comprehend how ***ANYONE** can process reality so grotesquely as to think we deserved THAT....innocent civilians destroyed en masse to make some arcane socio/political/religious point!!!

Well, I've just read in a reputable newspaper that an opinion poll shows that two-thirds of American citizens believe that retaliation is justified 'even if it brings about the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians'.

So, if it's ok for Americans to do it ...

This doesn't mean _I_ believe it's ok, nor that I don't deplore the attacks, nor that I haven't wept for the dead.
But my breath is taken away by the sheer naivete and/or arrogance of Americans who honestly believe their country can do no wrong, that it represents a shining beacon of freedom and democracy etc etc.
Have you already forgotten that your current President is only in office because he got the recounts stopped while he was still winning?
Have you forgotten, or didn't you know, that only last year you, "our gallant allies that have always stood shoulder to shoulder with us etc etc", threatened to wipe out the Scottish woollen industry? Because we were trying to help out the small independent banana farmers of the Caribbean who were threatened with the loss of, not only their livelihoods, but the economy of whole islands, by the giant fruit corporations that had given financial support to Clinton?
What was done to you was wrong - but because you're human beings, with all the failings of human beings, not because America is somehow a better country than any other.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Euphemia
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:27 PM

Bill D wrote: >..we are just trying to comprehend how ***ANYONE** can process reality so grotesquely as to think we deserved THAT....innocent civilians destroyed en masse to make some arcane socio/political/religious point!!!

Well, I've just read in a reputable newspaper that an opinion poll shows that two-thirds of American citizens believe that retaliation is justified 'even if it brings about the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians'.

So, if it's ok for Americans to do it ...

This doesn't mean _I_ believe it's ok, nor that I don't deplore the attacks, nor that I haven't wept for the dead.
But my breath is taken away by the sheer naivete and/or arrogance of Americans who honestly believe their country can do no wrong, that it represents a shining beacon of freedom and democracy etc etc.
Have you already forgotten that your current President is only in office because he got the recounts stopped while he was still winning?
Have you forgotten, or didn't you know, that only last year you, "our gallant allies that have always stood shoulder to shoulder with us etc etc", threatened to wipe out the Scottish woollen industry? Because we were trying to help out the small independent banana farmers of the Caribbean who were threatened with the loss of, not only their livelihoods, but the economy of whole islands, by the giant fruit corporations that had given financial support to Clinton?
What was done to you was wrong - but because you're human beings, with all the failings of human beings, not because America is somehow a better country than any other.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:37 PM

AKRick, I don't think that newswire is correct. As far as I know, the military is on alert, but no one has been officially deployed yet.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

Arne needs to learn the difference between actual facts and gross exaggeration. Most of the things that you rattled off as being endemic in this nation are actually very limited. Your strained logic tries to refute my point, for example, by stereotyping all men of God based on a couple of publicity-hungry shysters. The ultimate proof of your stupidity is the fact that the U.S. is currently welcoming large numbers of immigrants from ALL of the very nations that you imply are as good off as us. If we "ain't" the best game in town, then why are so many people dying (often literally) to come here? If my pride in that overwhelming FACT is going to be interpreted as arrogance, then I guess that we will have to change the name from Webster's to Arne's dictionary.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: DougR
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:51 AM

Guest Edward: are you a real person?

DougR

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 07:42 AM

Check www.portal.telegraph.co.uk. (British paper). Tim Butcher is the correspondent on the ground in Quetta,Pakistan

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 07:52 AM

GUEST Euphemia, I could be wrong but I believe that the count in Florida made by the newspapers several months after the election was over showed that Bush did win the majority of the legally cast votes in Florida. Under our election system, this gave him a majority of the votes and hence the election.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:12 AM

I don't know whether Guest Edward/Euphemia is a real person, but the points he raised are valid. When viewed from this side (UK) of the pond, America, as a nation does appear to be naive and/or arrogant. Or perhaps it just has a lousy PR department.

I too saw reports that America believes that retaliation is justified 'even if it brings about the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians'. The USA is getting almost unanimous sympathy and support right now, but go down that route and that support will disappear.

It has been said here that America needs help right now. The UK has an expert search and rescue team. They go on immediate standby, and offer their help, when there is a major disaster (natural or otherwise) anywhere in the world. Their particular area of expertise is locating and rescuing people from collapsed buildings. They went on standby last Tuesday, within 24 hours they were stood down because America said it didn't want outside help. There's people dying under what is left of the WTC and they don't want expert help. JESUS CHRIST!

This thread was started by someone who dared to criticize the USA, they immediately got called a flamer. Why? They may not have used a name, but they didn't do anything other than raise valid points. I doubt if the same points raised by a member would not have prompted the same response. Sympathy for the victims of this dispicable act is justifed. Re-writing history to whitewash the USA as perfect is not.

The USA did attempt to wreck the Scottish woollen industry because we dared to buy a few bananas from independant growers, whilst continuing to 'stand shoulder to shoulder' with us. Over the weekend, we heard an American crowing on about how the USA stood shoulder to shoulder with Britain during the blitz. Oh really? The blitz took place in 1940 the USA stood back and watched, and joined the war a year later.

Could somebody explain to me just how this wonderous misile defence system that the USA proposes is going to work. Do they propose to blow up nuclear warheads 'harmlessly' in the atmosphere, or perhaps shoot them down where they'll do 'minimal' damage - like on Canada or Europe or in the ocean. Gee, thanks guys, I'm glad you're on our side!

America can rightly claim credit for a great deal, but not everything. It is also guilty of a great deal, and should accept the criticism that goes with it.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:16 AM

Troll that may be so, but over here (UK) it is normal to finish the count before declaring the winner.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Brian< go study your own history. Have you ever heard of Lend-Lease? It was because of that the Britain was able to survive until the US did join the war formally.
Gore got THREE recounts and still couldn't get a majority. This has all been hashed out nearly a year ago. To imply that our rage and anguish is somehow unjust because of an election requires a stretch of the imagination that I find myself incapable of>
BTW I have been fairly active on the forum but I must have missed the post where someone said that America was incapable of doing wrong. Will someone more knowledgible than I please provide a link?
Thank you.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:43 AM

AKRick, I checked out the link, and did not see the report of which you speak. There was nothing in the Telegraph that we're not getting here in the US.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

Troll. I have read OUR history, and I have heard of Lend-Lease, but that isn't the same as a formal declaration of war. America, despite repeated pleas, did all it could to minimise it's involvement for as long as possible.

I did not in any way imply that your rage and anguish is in any way unjustified, but the wrong response to it will be unjustied. My comment about the election result was in no way related to my previous posting. I only read your comments after I posted. My comment about the count was intended light heartedly. No offence was intended. Indeed, it would be a great stretch of the imagination to go so far. I fear your imagination was already stretching much further than mine. As I said, no offence was intended.

I was looking further afield than Mudcat when I made my comments about whitewashing history. As viewed from the UK, America does not appear to accept criticism well, but as I said 'perhaps it just has a lousy PR department'. I will re-emphasise how I finished my first posting as it was intended as a balanced comment.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:44 AM

Captain America (presumably) claimed I said that there were things "being endemic in this nation". I did not. Nor did I say that "all men of God" were siding with the loathesome Falwell and Robertson. And then he chooses to dismiss the _actual_ points I made, yet he accuses _me_ of "need[ing] to learn the difference between actual facts and gross exaggeration." I suggest that he remove the beam in his eye before he asks me to remove the speck in mine.

-- Arne Langsetmo

P.S. to another: In some counties in Florida, there was never more than _one_ tally, and that solely by machine. But even the U.S. Supreme Court recognised that Florida law deems there to be many valid votes amongst the undervotes (and overvotes, I should add). The newspaper recounts show Gore winning under some perfectly reasonable criteria (by Florida law). The fact is that the U.S. Supreme Court, in stopping the counts, caused the very Constitutional violation that they were supposedly so concerned with as a _potentiality_, _before the fact_, to actually happen: Identical votes in different counties were counted under _quite_ different standards, some by hand, others only by machine. The "remedy" they came up with _caused_ the very "problem" that so "concerned" them. You can reach your own conclusion then as to what they were in fact trying to do. My advice for those that are interested: Look at the unusually candid explanation given by Scalia in his opinion WRT the Dec. 9th stay order.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:08 PM

The lynch mob has a right to justice too. [to be held accountable for the crime of lynching] Patriotism is challenged by anyone who dares ask a question concerning both sides of a conflict in times of great suffering. I have yet to read anyone saying that America is evil or bad ... except for bin Laden and the justifiablly angry who claim this is what others have "actually" said here by looking at both sides.

The following post inspired many to claim the author had a drug problem, was not a patriot, was an enemy of the state ect.. Get a grip people. People of insight will be needed to defend our country as well as those who are crack shots. ........................................................ Sucking up to the fervent wave of patriotism is the safe thing to do in America now. To express any doubts is to bring the wrath of being ostracised as a traitor upon ones self. There is a fundamentalist certainty that seeing both sides to the conflict is EVIL. There is only one side , our side.

There is only one demand of the terrorists that the American people are told en masse. The demand to destroy freedom and all Americans.

Even if Americans are told of the demand to remove the military base in Saudi Arabia it will not threaten our patriotism. Even if told of the $38,000,000,000 debt relief Pakistan wants in return for their "cooperation and [perhaps] an end to the terrorist attacks", Bush knows best.

Even if we are told of the 500,000 infant - teenage fatalities in Iraq as a result of the Gulf War and sanctions , it will not deter America's patriotism.

Even if we understand that the missle attack on Sudan without any warning despite being a nation in which we are on diplomatic terms it makes no difference.

Even if our policy of CIA destabiliztion of governments and installation of puppet shahs, generals or "kings" is understood, patriotism will be unaffected.

Even if we are told that an explicit warning was given 3 months prior to the attack that at least allowed investors to sell short first, patriotism will not be deterred.

Suspension of civil liberties is to be expected in times of declared war against ...25 countries.

It is tantamount to sabotage to elucidate the role that the Bush's have had in creating foreign military "mad men" and then feel the need to show them who is boss once they feel "sovereign".

It is treasonous to suggest that the Bush team would sabotage alternative energy and increase our reliance on oil and the middle east.

It is rude to challenge the legitimately of the elected heir apparent and new Prince of Power George W Bush. It is only a coincidence that the same 6 faces of the Gulf war are in power again.

Our great communicator needs his handlers to explain and change the meaning of his words to the world and America but he is now reported as being a wonderful speaker.

No there will be no threat to American patriotism. Neither facts ,wisdom or compassion will erase the outrage of becoming innocent victims in the attack of our homeland.

America is not naieve, our appointed leaders and cable TV tells us exactly what to think (with few exceptions such as Frontline PBS).

The growing mantra here is "you don't need to know" . Everything will be handled on a need to know basis. No journalists , no traitorous dissent , no questions. Suck it up , bite the bullet , fall on the grenade. Now is the time for true grit. "Were gonna trackem down,smokem out and bringem to justice dead or alive."

Its time to shut up and follow the party line , after all this is why we fought communism. America is a great nation , why else would everyone want to live here ? America is also the great prize for those who wish to rule her. ......................................................

Lets be carefull and treat this country and its citizens the liberty to think freely.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

Kim C

I was hoping to avoid writing it all out, but ...

www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/19/wta1319.xml

Hope that's right. I've gotten this far without learning to do the blue clickies ... guess it's time.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:32 PM

This is a link to a history of American involvement with Pakistan and Afgahnistan. Useful reading and an indication of what will need to be addressed if any worthwhile action against terrorism is to be contemplated.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:41 PM

Date: 19-Sep-01 - 12:23 PM Subject: RE: Sycophantic Americans - Please Read From: Troll (who can cut and paste with the best of them)

I, for one, have NEVER said that the US was not wrong on ocassion. My country has made some foolish and, on ocassion, deadly errors in judgement. It happens. Live with it. Now lets look at a few points: 1) The most important terrorist goal -as stated by bin Laden- is the death of ALL Americans. He has other demands but they pale into insignificance beside this one. 2) The Saudi government invited the us to set up the base there to help protect Saudi interests from Saddam. Bin Ladens gripe there is with the Saudis, not the US. 3) Saddam Hussein agreed to the sanctions when he surrendered. The sanctions were to stay in place until such time as it could be verified that he had ceased to manufacture weapons of mass destruction. He has refused to allow that verification. We gave our word that the sanctions would stay in place until the conditions of surrender were carried out. We are keeping our word. Iraq is allowed to sell a certain amount of oil so that humanitarian supplies may be purchased -food medicine etc.- but this is not being done. The Iraqui government is using the money to build up their army; we are even told that they may have nuclear devices. In the meantime, their people starve while the money for their food goes to rebuild Saddams army. 4) It is the job of intelligence to de-stabilize inimical foreign governments when that suits our purposes and the same is true of the intelligence service of any government. 5)IF an explicit warning >I?was given three months prior to the atrocity, then heads should roll. Publicly. 6)"It is tantamount to sabotage to elucidate the role that the Bush's have had in creating foreign military "mad men" and then feel the need to show them who is boss once they feel "sovereign"." This has been pointed in many of the news media, and, so far as I know, no news editors have been executed to date. (One can always hope...) 7)"It is treasonous to suggest that the Bush team would sabotage alternative energy and increase our reliance on oil and the middle east." See # 6 I see no need to address your other points since they are not of an objective nature. I think I agree with your heart, mind and hand post BTW.

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM

Brian, there was a strong feeling in this country that the US should not involve itself in another "European" war. Roosevelt and those who believed that we had to become involved did everything in their power to help England until the recalcitrant members of congress could be convinced that it was our fight too. This is hardly doing"all it could to minimise it's involvement for as long as possible."
Given our system of government, we were as involved as we could be.
Was the Falklands War backed by ALL of the Commons?

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

Troll. I think broadly speaking we are actually agreeing here. These matters are decided at Government level (rightly so, it's what we elect them for). While I am aware that Roosevelt (and many other Americans) gave as much help as they could at that stage, America did not get fully involved because it was not the overwhelming will of it's Government to do so. Therefore Americas national identity (viewed from this side of the pond) was that they did minimise their involvement at that stage. Perhaps we are going to have to agree to disagree about the phrasing of how to view that one.

Incidently, not England please, Britain! We get bollocked by the Scots, Welsh and Irish if we use 'England' to mean the UK, why should you get away with it. ;->

The point you raised about the Falklands war is a fair one. Broadly, all parties of the house were in agreement and gave their backing. Those against were few and not drawn on party lines. So individually, NO not ALL, but partywise YES it was fully supported.

I'd still like to know where we stand with this missile defence system though, because I sure as hell don't feel like I'll be protected.

Anyway can't talk further tonight as I'm away from the PC now. I'll check back tomorrow.

Take care

Brian.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:46 PM

AKRick I could not use your link - it said the page was not available.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

Is this what you were talking about?

"A SQUAD of muscular British men wearing civilian clothes arrived in Islamabad yesterday on a scheduled flight from Britain carrying diplomatic bags weighed down with what looked to the layman like military equipment.

"Then the Pakistani capital's main airport was all of a sudden closed for two hours to allow military flights, believed to be by the United States Air Force, to land."

Nowhere in this report does it state that US Special Forces are in Pakistan. It says there are flights "believed" to be by the USAF. I will say again, there have been no reports of any deployments as of yet.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM

Arne,

You did not say endemic, but you rattled off a list of problems and insinuated that they are as universal in the U.S. as in other nations. Furthermore, your statement about men of God in the U.S. was presented in a manner that gave only a negative viewpoint. As for your other so-called "actual points," they are also so stereotypical that I am not sure that you had any legitimate points to make. And you sure as hell don't seem too anxious to address my "actual point" that the immigration influx to the U.S. speaks for itself in terms of the vast comparative benefits of this nation. They would love you as a contestant on The Weakest Link.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Troll
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:31 PM

Brian. Re: missle defense system. I'd be in favor of it if I thought it would work. As it is, I don't believe it will work in its present configuration and the money to MAKE it work could be used on other, more effective means of missile defense.
For a real good take on how we got saddled with "Star Wars", read the book "Junk Science."

troll

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:37 PM

I just read at abcnews.com that the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt is "headed east" and that a group of about 2100 Marines is scheduled to leave North Carolina on Thursday.

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

Just a note about the Marines. 2100 is about a Battalion Landing Team (BLT). They are on permanent duty in the Caribbean and the Mediteranean, and have been, for at least 50 years (my age and stuff lends credence to this). So that doesn't mean a lot.

The second thing is that we still don't know who perpetrated this atrocity. The only peole to take credit for it are the Japanese Ultra Right Wing "Red Army Group." So I am not so convinced that bin Ladin did this. I'm fairly sure he doesn't care about it, probably wishes he did do it, but I would look at Iraq before I'd look at anyone else.

The third thing I've learned is no one gets involved in a war without some form of financial gain. It is always about money. So who stands to make a buck on this? Lots of folks.

Yes lots of people have done something, or nothing, and things have happened that were less than pleasant. But I really struggle with the concept that since my family didn't directly kill someone doesn't make them culpable. In Viet Nam, or I should say on my return home, I always tried to remind those who thought me a savage killer that I pulled the trigger but it was their tax dollar that purchased it. In the criminal world it is akin to hiring an assasin (we've had that discussion before).

I would encourage everyone to set just a little lower on their horse and continue to assist the world in becoming a bit saner space in time. Arlo Guthries Mom is correct about the world.

And last but not least a numerical correction. It was mentioned that the WTC death tole would exceed those killed in Viet Nam. We lost nearly 60,000 in that little fracas and last I looked we weren't that high on the count here. And I mean no denigration of those who were lost in the WTC. I grieve in my own way for all of those who die in government's name. CarolC is correct on that one.

Think I'll stop now
Peace - Steve

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:28 AM

Troll. Thanks for that. I am old enough to remember 'Star Wars' and always did think it a 'pie in the sky' concept (excuse the pun). I thought it had been discredited (correctly so), and dropped years ago. I was amazed when it reared it's ludicrous head again (new name, same idea). What amazes me even more is the short time span in which they reckon they could have it in place. Speaking as an engineer, I have a fair idea of how long it takes to develope even a fairly simple system. To get the MDS in place so quickly would indicate to me that the research work (and consequently the US government spending) has never stopped. Of course I have no proof, so am only speculating, but how many of us (in any country) have any real idea what our governments are up to, and consequently what we, as tax payers, are paying for.

It saddens me to think what I may be paying for without my knowledge. My guess is, that one way or another, we all have a share in every atrocity that is carried out in the world.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lest we forget: USA aggression
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:32 AM

Steve, I think in the beginning, it was estimated that about 50,000 or so people worked in the WTC; but they weren't all there at the time the planes hit. Someone explained to me how the commuter system works in NY - everyone can't go in at the same time, so there were still people on their way to work at 9:00, 9:30. If they HAD all been there, the numbers would have been much higher.

And like Will Rogers, all I know is what I read in the papers. :-)