Why do we try anymore?

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:01 PM

If the USA is to be a "beacon of freedom and liberty" then is that simply to apply to those that gain her citizenship? Of course not. So these students should have the same right to speak as any other person on this soil.

Were they rude? Yes! Ungrateful? Yes! Stupid and foolhardy? Yes! But as "GUEST, I Hurricane" points out, That is what seperates us from them. That is why we shall prevail in the long term. Many of these student will realize to their eventual shame how childish they were but how the Democratic system protected them in spite of their ingratitude and foolhardiness.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:04 AM

Last night Mister and I went to the state fair for a little fun. As we were walking about the midway, I saw a man with his toddler son. The little boy was pushing his own stroller, with a HUGE teddy bear in it. The thing was bigger than him! As I passed them, the boy looked up at me and gave me the sweetest little grin.

That's why.

Now I don't know what other fracas y'all are getting into here, but I will say this: freedom brings with it the responsibility to know when NOT to practice it! Sure, people are free to celebrate if they want, but it's not in good taste.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: nutty
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:24 AM

THIS MAY HELP

dare to be a daniel

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:03 AM

Just as these students should not celebrate our loss, we should not celebrate others'. I have seen too many photos of people in the US of A cheering our bombing runs on Bhagdad, etc. I DO hope those students realised that had they even spoken similarly in their own countries, not only would the police NOT have protected them, but they would have helped kill them on the spot. Perhaps this realisation may plant a seed of thought in a few minds that may change their attitudes which can change more attitudes and so on.

On a slightly different note, I heard reports on our Public Radio station that a Muslim group in Burlington had received threats. These people are refugees from Bosnia and totally grateful to have a relatively safe place to live in this country. We must guard against this. It is analogous to saying all Catholics are bad because of the Provisional IRA, or all Proestants are bad because of the Ulster Unionists...

We must not attack innocents. We have to break the cycle. We HAVE to try or the world will truly belong to the cockroaches.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:09 AM

This morning my wife and I spoke, I have been distant from her. Trying to cope with work, trying to cope with what has happened has taken a toll on my willingness to want to believe in anything good. I want revenge for those innocent people. I want a controlled but exacting revenge. I heard this morning Iraq financed the attack. Funny, I thought he was spending everything to keep his sick hungry citizens alive. Not spending millions to kill innocent citizens abroad. I discover that all my hatred that has disturbed me is only natural. It has just never been pushed to such extreme. I used to watch horrific events on the news, shrug, grab my cofee and the remote and change it to cartoons (I love to have the childhood flashbacks). It never phased me. Was I more of a monster when I was apathetic to the suffering of a few, or now, when I (for a moment) would have delighted in hearing that we struck back and killed those that celebrated the deaths of our citizens. I should say rather, citizens of several countries. It was not just Americans, and I am arrogant to even remotely think that the grief does not extend past our boarders.

USF, Great place isn't it. I haven't heard much since a brief blurb over the TV and a confirmation on the radio. To those that say they have the rights. You are correct. They do. But, for those that are not citizens, they should be sent back. I view them as more of a threat to this community than most could imagine. It is easy if you don't live or work close to the place. But what if, what if just one of those people decide that they wish to emulate the act? My family is worth more than anyone who would DARE to come to this country and celebrate the deaths of tens of thousands of people. Those that have come on Visa.. if they feel the country needed to suffer, then they obviously are only leeching what they can. They need to be sent away. Those that claim citizenship. I hesitate, but I think they should be treated as suspect. Questioned, held, detained, but most importantly I think USF needs to uphold a MORAL. That the celebration of this act will not be tolerated and will be punished. Is this wrong of me? These people (not indicating a group, only a sentiment of a people) hide behind the freedom of speech. A freedom that , as well as many others, was attacked. I remind myself that the people that defend the student's right to speech, are defending the right and not the students themselves.

Where do we draw the line now? My wife and I often debate things. One time we debated the Orange march in Ireland. She said they shouldn't march. That it led to violence against innocent people. I told her that I could not be a hypocrit. I would say they have all rights to march, because I enjoy that freedom here. Who am I to deny them? I also turned and said, I do not support the disarming of the paramilitary groups, I enjoy that right in my country. Who am I to deny them? I hear stories of these students and I ask myself again, who am I do deny them, but still I want to.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:03 AM

Maybe those students would benefit more from spending a week or two helping to clear out bodies and debris at the site of the attack, than from being censured or sent home.

The only way to dispell darkness is to shine a light.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:56 AM

I don't know. The events of the day before last will cause generations of people unbelievable grief for the rest of their lives. Our nation's future now looks entirely different than it did on Sunday. Tens of thousands of innocents are dead...

But the world is still spinning around the sun. Almost all of us are still breathing. My sister should still be having her baby any day now. Same place, I think. Why not continue to show the same compassion and tolerance as we (hopefully) did last Sunday?

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Night. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM

Lepus, under ordinary circumstances, I could not agree with you more. However, let's face it, these are not ordinary circumstances. We are in a much different world today than we were just before 9 AM Tuesday morning. I believe that if these people are jubilant about the attacks on our country then they would be better off in their country, celebrating with their own countrymen.

Incidently, I checked the St Petersburg Times web site and find from their banner ads that they are sponsored by USF, the school in question. Therefore I would expect to find little about problems at the school in the paper. I do not like the St Petersburg Times at all for various other reasons.

Isn't it refreshing that WE can disagree in a polite way? Shame that the world can't do likewise!

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

OK, Banjer. But when you say things like 'send them home,' or talk about constitutional rights for *US*, but not for *THEM*, I find it a bit scary. Deporting foreign nationals for their unsavory opinions is, I think, one step away from detaining US citizens for having similar opinions. Or just for being Muslim, Arabic, or swarthy. Just my opinion, of course. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:28 AM

NOBODY wants their crude, shameful behavior here. But with this list full of holier than thou highfalutin high-minded talk about us ~trying~ not to be savages, look what is happening in the real world: we are PROTECTING these most unpleasant of guests. It's so beautiful. . .

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:27 AM

Expressing jubiulation at a time like this in the heart of a relatively reactionary state like Florida is about as stupid a communication as one could possibly utter. Almost suicidal. Notbecause we don't believe in free speech, but because we don't believe in being slapped around AND insulted twice. Dumb as hammers.

A

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM

Troll, I agree. I sure as Hell don't agree with the students' opinions/celebrations, if that report is indeed true. But I feel just as strongly that they should be able to express those opinions and have those celebrations without fear of interference, violence, or deportation. From your last post here, I don't get the feeling that you disagree. Correct?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:20 AM

Under the same ammendment YOU, Lepus, are entitled to want them to express themselves wherever you choose! I prefer they do in THEIR country. That's how the system works. YOU can campaign for them to do whatever they want in this country and I will campaign for them to be sent home. WE BOTH have a freedom of choice and expression. I will NOT think less of you for expressing what you feel and hope you respect my thoughts equally!

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM

They ARE able to express themselves in our country, Lepus. But Banjer and I have the right to resent them doing so. If you feel that their jubilation was justified, that's between you and your conscience.
A guest should not make light of his hosts misfortune.
It's rude.

troll

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:03 AM

But Banjer, what if I want them to be able to express themselves in MY country? Or is it more yours than it is mine?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:01 AM

reatiliation=retaliation

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

Tampa Tribune and St Petersburg Times are the local papers in the area.Click for St Petersburg Times

I, like many others am very angry but do try to think things through before jumping on the bandwagon and demanding retaliations. I DO believe that reatiliation is in order, based on FACT, not kneejerk reaction. I also strongly feel that while those involved are entitled to express themselves freely, they should do so in their own homeland, not mine!!

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM

I will not release my anger at they and what they did. That said, I am glad that the police protected them. They had the right, under our constitution, to do what they did. The system does work but not always the way we would like.
Banjer,,what are the local papers? I'd like to read an account of what happened and the library will have the paper.

troll

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:46 AM

While I tend to agree with GUEST, I, hurricane on the grounds that we have first ammendment rights and are entitled to our individual thoughts and ideals, I would urge those rights be extended only to ligit citizens of our country. It is rumored that quite a number of these students were NOT US citizens. Those that are not should be sent home where they belong!

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:38 AM

Guest, just a nobody, I hope you won't take offense when I say put down the rage against the ignorant students, and take joy that the government protected them from angry mobs. That's beautiful, don't you see?

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Banjer
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:34 AM

I live one county removed from the USF and heard from a student at the school that the campus police actually protected the revelers from other students! This is hearsay of course, but the same story was carried on a local news channel shortly thereafter!

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From:
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:23 AM

I would like to know more about the USF situation. mg

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM

I think when I originally started this, I was only telling how my day unfolded. Sure, to share with others, but to have it make sense to myself. I feel dread for what will happen when our contry responds to this attack. I am fearful of the frenzy for revenge that already is starting. But there is a part of me, deep within, that joins many in vengeful wishes.

I watched the news today, again, and watched USF Students that celebrated the attack. My first response, kill them. But as I subdued my desire for revenge, I thought, far better to send the ingrateful bastards home. And to those that call America thier home, lock them up. I cannot describe the anger I felt. I saw the Palastinians dancing in the streets. I felt anger then, but knew there were many that did not know the loss of life. Perhaps had they, there may have been a few less in the streets celebrating. But these students, KNEW what the loss of life was like. I think about it and rage rises again. I think I will make sure that I make myself a thorn in the side of the University of Southern Florida. Perhaps Alumni would like to know how protected these students were as they celebrated the thousands of people that lie burried in the wreckage in New York.

I find it strange. Like a rollercoster that keeps going up and down. When I find myself at peace, something else comes and anger rises again. I heard today that congress may lift the ban that allowed the President the power to order assassination. Deep down in me, that savage vengence made me smile. I rationalize that it is far better to use assassination over conventional methods. But at the same time... I smile over the thought of a man , a monster, being killed. In Farie Tales, when the Ogre dies, there is a happy ending. Will there ever be one when we wish, even secretly, to unleash such vengence. And to delight in the thought of the monster getting killed?

I keep placing rambling thoughts here, hoping to either see something to help subdue the feelings, or to know it is alright. I know there are no answers here, only greif, and on occasion the flamer that can be the target of our rage. At least here the rage carries no bloodloss.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:37 PM

We try because to NOT try is to face the unknown. We try to preserve what we have because it is familiar, not because it is necessarily good. We are still fearful of the dark.

troll

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:31 PM

We can not comprehend what belief or loss of faith ... what right or wrong ... what vision or darkness ... what deed or inaction - can have driven one group of human beings to cold-bloodedly visit such suffering and anguish on so many of their brothers and sisters ... and still remain sane.

We can only pray that we never know what they believed they knew ... never experience what turned them away from their innate humanity - and turn back to a world that needs, as it ever did, caring souls who see beyond all those insubstantial distinctions of colour, shape, location, politics and faith to care for those who know that we must make this imperfect world work ... that destroying it will not usher in the utopia ... that we only change the world for the better by the small kindnesses of one human to another written a millionfold.

Bob Bolton

13/09/2001

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: CamiSu
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:16 PM

Oh Little Hawk, You've just said what I've been trying to tell people for years. It is the SAME GOD! It doesn't matter what name we use. God, Yaweh, Allah, Love, Truth. And that is why we cannot stop trying, indeed, why we must keep working to understand this.

I just got back from a special meeting at church, after our regular Wednesday meeting. Two people who worked for airlines were there. One had been a supervisor in Boston and DC and so knew virtually all the crews on the USAir flights. The other was from California, with United, and knew some of those crews. And all agreed that love is our only answer.

Quietly trying to love all God's children.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Peg
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:14 PM

I wrote these quotations on the board today in my writing classes:

"Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

John Donne, poet

"Always leave people with good thouhgts, because you may never see them again."

Valerie Perrine, actress

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:01 PM

Well put, all.

I continue to try because for me to do otherwise is unacceptable if I am to live with myself.

The hardest choice I can make is to meet the temptation to hate with the determination to love. I believe it is also the most important choice I have to make...over and over again.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:39 PM

Yes, or political/military/financial zealotry...which amounts in the end to pretty much the same thing as religious zealotry...it truly doesn't care how many people die to secure its ends...as long as it's the other guy's people!

We try because the Spirit of Life cannot be vanquished. Each sunrise is a renewal of that truth. Don't lose hope.

Actually, everyone does have God on their side...but they can't seem to wake up to the fact that it's the SAME God. If they did, they'd stop fighting and help one another.

- LH

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Banjer
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:34 PM

WHY DO WE TRY ANYMORE?

What if the signers of the Declaration of Independence had thought like that? What if all those folk that have brought a better life to the world, folks like Salk, the Curies, and countless others had had those same thoughts and just given up?

NO!, giving up is not the answer and would just be playing into the hands of the terrorists that would destroy our way of life. Carrying on, chin up, chest out, showing that our bodies and buildings may be destroyed but our FREE spirit (especially us folkies) marches on forever.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: BH
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM

And, of course, every one---as Dylan said---has god on his side. Perhaps that is the problem. Religious zealotry.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM

We try because we wouldn't like ourselves very much if we didn't. We don't always succeed but we try.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: GUEST,Mad4Mud at work
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:39 PM

"To despair is to turn your back on God." I heard that line once and have to hope it's true. Try not to despair although your heart like mine is heavy with grief.

Subject: RE: Why do we try anymore?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:20 PM

we try anymore, because somebody must. The best way for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Subject: Why do we try anymore?
From: GUEST,Just a nobody
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:16 PM

My wife and I sat in a doctors office with our two children. I listened, as I always do, to conversations that buzz around me.

"Airplane crashed... Building collapsed... Airports closed.... Can't believe it happened..."

I looked at my wife "Hon, something bad just happened. It doesn't make sense. Something about a plane crash and the airports are closing." She looked at me for a moment, both of us exchanging confused looks. Cell phones started ringing and people were talking in hushed voices, many with worried expressions. My wife looked at me "Something is wrong."

Thirty minutes later we learned what had happened. My wife frightened for one of our friends that worked in one of the towers. We made it home and we called friends to see if anyone had heard from our friend. "Jim, we need a phone number from you" Jim always sounded burned out, "Why?" Silence. "Jim, the World Trade Centers are gone. The Pentagon has been damaged by an Airliner that was hijacked." Silence "You're drunk" No... but wishing I was. "You're serious" Yes... but wishing I wasn't.

I left for work, leaving my wife to handle the contact of friends. I couldn't stand listening to the news, so many dead. In my heart I wanted unbridled revenge. I wanted to know that Binladdin, who-ever, what-ever paid for all the wasted life. I stopped three times overcome by grief of what had happened. I got to work and it was empty. A handful of essential people.

We recieved an email from our friend in the World Trade Center. Alive, unharmed, Thank you God.

Anger and rage consumed me that night, listening to those people defend and fingerpoint. As night wore on all I wanted to do was hold my children. In my rage I was willing to do the very thing I was angry at. Kill the innocent to get to the guilty. I was the same monster I wanted to kill.

Morning came and I thought it was all a dream. I turned on the radio and there it was again. A nightmare revisited. I listened to D.J.'s talk about shipping all immigrants out. Callers wanting to bomb cities. I wanted to throw up. I went onto Mudcat, and there I found people screaming about fanatics, wanting to extract revenge, even against the innocent. I went to lunch. The conversation was the same. People I considered cool headed wanting to bomb cities. "There is no innocent person"

Certainly they are right, there is no innocent person left anylonger. A cry of humanity muffled by a nation enraged. There was a cartoon I used to watch, two cavemen doing the cartoon things. A line came to mind, that one always would say when something happened. I thought of it and cried...

"When will the hurting stop?"