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AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?

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catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM
Lonesome EJ 12 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM
SharonA 12 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 12 Sep 01 - 06:22 PM
Deda 12 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM
Snuffy 12 Sep 01 - 07:33 PM
catspaw49 12 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM
SINSULL 12 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM
kendall 12 Sep 01 - 08:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Sep 01 - 08:48 PM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 09:57 PM
Naemanson 12 Sep 01 - 10:11 PM
Naemanson 12 Sep 01 - 10:25 PM
Mrrzy 12 Sep 01 - 10:28 PM
Amos 12 Sep 01 - 10:33 PM
katlaughing 12 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM
T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) 12 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM
Troll 12 Sep 01 - 11:24 PM
Peter Kasin 12 Sep 01 - 11:40 PM
Escamillo 12 Sep 01 - 11:46 PM
Troll 12 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 02:41 AM
Kernow John 13 Sep 01 - 03:21 AM
marty D 13 Sep 01 - 03:39 AM
CarolC 13 Sep 01 - 03:53 AM
mooman 13 Sep 01 - 06:16 AM
Wolfgang 13 Sep 01 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner at work) 13 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM
Naemanson 13 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM
GUEST 13 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM
Fiolar 13 Sep 01 - 09:16 AM
Mrrzy 13 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 09:35 AM
Wolfgang 13 Sep 01 - 09:58 AM
Mary in Kentucky 13 Sep 01 - 10:14 AM
O'Trasno 13 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 10:31 AM
O'Trasno 13 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 13 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM
Kim C 13 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM
mooman 13 Sep 01 - 10:41 AM
Charley Noble 13 Sep 01 - 10:45 AM
mousethief 13 Sep 01 - 10:58 AM
Peg 13 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM
mooman 13 Sep 01 - 11:01 AM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 11:05 AM
Kim C 13 Sep 01 - 11:08 AM
SINSULL 13 Sep 01 - 11:23 AM
LR Mole 13 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM
Pseudolus 13 Sep 01 - 12:52 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM
Roger in Sheffield 13 Sep 01 - 01:00 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM
wysiwyg 13 Sep 01 - 01:08 PM
Amos 13 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM
Naemanson 13 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM
Eric the Viking 13 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM
mousethief 13 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM
Wolfgang 13 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM
mousethief 13 Sep 01 - 02:02 PM
Steve in Idaho 13 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM
Amos 13 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM
thosp 13 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM
MMario 13 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM
katlaughing 13 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM
Lonesome EJ 13 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM
PeteBoom 13 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM
DougR 13 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM
Naemanson 13 Sep 01 - 03:21 PM
Kim C 13 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM
Kernow John 13 Sep 01 - 03:46 PM
sophocleese 13 Sep 01 - 03:56 PM
catspaw49 13 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM
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Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 13 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM
Cllr 13 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM
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bill\sables 13 Sep 01 - 06:58 PM
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GUEST,Bob S 14 Sep 01 - 08:22 AM
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MMario 14 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM
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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM

We still are talking but I think this one will about do it.....then maybe specific topics AND MUSIC will takeover.....

HERE WAS #5

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM

From CNN, a tale of heroism.

Apparently one of the passengers on the flight that crashed in PA cell phoned his wife, who told him that a hijacked airliner had crashed into the Trade Center. He signed off, then called back to say the passengers had taken a vote and decided to try to overpower the hijackers.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:10 PM

I heard a different version, but basically the same story Leej.......I think we'll hear a few good stories as time passes.....Tragic perhaps, but inspiring.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM

catspaw, I was disappointed to read the quip you included with your post at the end of "Part 5", linking with this thread. This is no game.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:22 PM

Sharon-I am sure that Spaw is as upset about this terrible tragedy as you are, but sometimes black humour is a coping strategy, some of my friends work for the emergency services and they are all good people, but they tell some pretty sick jokes, especially amongst themselves.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Deda
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 06:30 PM

Paul Danish is a resident of Boulder, CO. The following is his piece in today's Colorado Daily, fwiw:

Make no mistake, what occurred in New York and Washington yesterday was an act of war. The question we must now answer as a country is what's to be done.

The easier question to answer is what's not to be done. We do not have the option of responding to yesterday's attacks as though they were criminal acts and that it is sufficient to bring the perpetrators to justice as though they were common criminals. That is the way we have responded to terrorist episodes such as the bombing of Pan American flight 103 or the previous attack on the World Trade Center, or the bombing of American embassies in Africa for the last 30 years. We cannot continue on that course.

We do not yet know who perpetrated yesterday's attacks, but this much we know:

We know that modern terrorism has political and religious roots. We also know that certain governments provide terrorist organizations with sanctuary, aid and comfort. We know that while the regimes are not always the outright sponsors of terrorism - although frequently they are - they are clearly terrorism's enablers. And now we know that this can no longer be tolerated.

This is no time to mince words. There are six regimes that have institutionally sponsored terrorism and institutionally incited violence against Americans. They are Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya and the Palestinian Authority. The first thing that must be done is that these regimes must be held accountable.

These governments must be given an ultimatum: Shut down all known organizations engaged in terrorism against the United States on your soil, arrest their members, and turn them over to the United States.

If they fail to do so, Congress should formally declare war on them. At the same time we should leave no doubt that we have no interest in winning their hearts and minds. Our only interest must be bringing about a permanent change in their behavior or bringing about their destruction.

This might seem a harsh doctrine, but the alternatives are worse. The first alternative is to respond as we have in the past - to bring out the dead and begin a criminal investigation aimed at finding surviving members of the group directly responsible - the result will be further attacks, because there will have been no real consequences for terrorists. Any response that leaves the terrorist infrastructure intact and maintains the pretense that the attack was something less than an act of war is an open invitation for even bloodier assaults.

The second alternative is even worse. It is to assume a defensive posture in which America tightens domestic security to the point where it in effect suspends fundamental civil liberties guaranteed by the Constitution. That response would be an act of national self-immolation and would be a strategic victory for the country's terrorist enemies.

However, America's responses cannot be confined to a military campaign against terrorism and its sponsors. The attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon are the same sort of defining moment in American history as the attack on Pearl Harbor; they signal not just that we cannot continue to ignore our enemies, but that we must become more engaged in the affairs of the planet.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:33 PM

If your pan's going to boil over, do you:

a) Turn down the heat.

b) Weld the lid on.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:49 PM

And Sharon, I'm disappointed that I have shepherded these damn threads and find that you must not have read any of my postings! Game? Give it a break....If you had read anything else I posted at all you'd know exactly how I feel......So you pick up on that and chastise me???? Only because I have read your postings and know how strongly you too have been affected is it that I can refrain from saying more. I will NOT apologize and I will consider your disappointment as I would consider a dead maggot.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:09 PM

Sharon,
Brace yourself. The "black humor" to come is a coping mechanism some people need to get through a tragedy. Remember the "Christie" jokes following the Challenger disaster.

Spaw's comment was an attempt to move gently to a new thread. I would have been disappointed in him if he had apologized. Read his history. If anyone understands the cruel reality of yesterday's events, it's Mr. Patterson.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:46 PM

Why would people bent on suicide have luggage?

As far as more drilling here goes, I understand that all of the Alaskan oil goes to Japan. Anyone know about this?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 08:48 PM

There's the old story about the man who lost his keys on a dark night, and was found searching for them under a street light. "But you didn't lose them anywhere near here. so why are you looking here?" "Because there's a light here and I can see to look."

A few years ago there was a terrorist bombing in Germany. So the USA and Britian cooperated in a bombing raid on Libya, to show terrorists they couldn't get away with it. The bombing was actually organised from Syria, but bombing Syria would have been politically inconvenient.

There's nothing we can say here that is going to in any way affect how our governments are going to act. Rather than speculating and saying what ought to happen, I think we'd be better to concentrate our attention on dealing with the anger and the pain and the grief in any way we can.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:57 PM

Kendall, unless it has been rescinded, which it well might have, I don't know, there was a ban on exporting Alaskan oil. You can read about here>


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:11 PM

Kat, that article is 6 years old and the writer is pushing for an end to the ban. Do you know if they took action on what the writer wanted to do? Can you find that out?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:25 PM

I am disturbed by something I have been hearing on the radio all afternoon. It started when Rumsfeld was talking about poor handling of secure information. Now I am hearing a lot more talk like that and how we need to worry about what information is released to the general public.

I haven't heard anything specific. They are only speaking in generalities. This is very disturbing. We must all remember the days of old when the administrations hid a great many indiscretions behind the veil of NATIONAL SECURITY. We must not go back to those days. It was a time when security concerns ran roughshod over personal liberites. It was a time when we had to watch what we said and who we talked to. We were only one step better than the Soviet Union.

We cannot afford to do that to ourselves. If we do then we are letting the terrorists win by destroying our way of life.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:28 PM

You have to have luggage or you are a suspicious passenger.

When talking about whether this was an act of war or not, remember, most life insurance policies won't pay for acts of war. If this is declared an act of war then none of the civilian casualties' survivors will get their benefits. This came up in Daddy's bombing and the state dept had to call the insurers and tell them that it was NOT an act of war or they wouldn't have paid. Let's wait till they get paid THEN call a spade a spade.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:33 PM

There are two meanings to the term, mrrzy. One is a general moral characterization. the other is more of a legal definition which only applies when a legal declaration has occurred. But there is no question that the actions of Tuesday were acts of war, in the first sense. Pearl Harbor was not an act which occurred during a declared war, either, but it sure brought about a legal state of war in a hurry; WTC, etc., may not do that, though, because there is no one nation behind it, but a diffuse network of psychos operating across multiple nations, I think.

Regards,

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM

I will try to find out, Naes. There was also a 2001 date at the bottom of the whole thing, so maybe it is still relevant.

In the meantime, there are some excellent articles and discussions over at the Christian Science Monitor

Okay, THAT oil ban was lifted in 1995. In 2000, some tried to get it reinstituted. There is an interesting analysis, from 2000, here. In this article it says only about 7% of all Alaskan oil goes to Japan and other Asian countries.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM

This morning, on the way to work, I went to the Oklahoma City National Memorial. I entered through the 9:03 gate, and put my fingers in the reflecting pool's shallow water. It was a step on the way of sorting out my conflicted feelings on this matter.

If our response to evil is too weak, we will be giving the wicked everything they seek. But we lose also if our response is too high-handed and indiscriminate. Moderation and self-restraint sometimes look like weakness, and maybe weakness sometimes disguises itself as these things--but even so, maybe true moderation is a way of gathering one's full strength to oppose evil without becoming consumed by evil oneself.

T.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:24 PM

Well said.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:40 PM

In my job (ranger) I've been called to the scene of several dead bodies over the past few years and have seen how a little humor becomes a defense mechanism among those who work at the scene. As I read it, Spaw is deeply moved and hurt by the events of the last two days. Also understandable that there is greatly heightened sensitivity to the tone of comments on Mudcat over the the last two days, but separating the defense mechanisms from the truly flaming and extremely inapropriate posts/threads is something we must try to do over the next few days and weeks.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Escamillo
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:46 PM

A dear friend, Cheryl Hutchinson who lives in Florida, sent me this message.

"Friend and family, My sister-in-law did not make it out of the Pentagon and is one of the casualites of yesteday attack on the United States. I ask that each of you take moment and pray for my brother Craig to help him get through this difficult time. Thank you.

Cheryl"

If anybody wants to send her a word of comfort or solidarity, please direct it to me escamillo@fibertel.com.ar and I'll resend the mail to her (just to protect her from any flamer).

Un abrazo - Andrés


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM

It's starting to hit closer to home.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:41 AM

What is it you are prevented from knowing, Naemanson, that you don't know?

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Kernow John
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:21 AM

Spaw
I'd like to say thank you for shepherding these threads. Being an American and having to read all of these posts must at times have reached emotions you never knew you had.
Reading from this side of the water I wish the likes of yourself, Kat, Big Mick, Amos, Doug R etc. were in charge over there. You might not agree with each other but you'd sure as hell reason with and respect each other. And that would make us in the rest of the world feel safer with the decisions reached.
T in Oklahoma, I loved your words.
KJ


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: marty D
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:39 AM

All I know is that after watching Tim McVeigh's ascent to superstardom status (killer division) over the years, I didn't feel any emotion at all when he was finally executed. Certainly not any better about what happened in Oklahoma. Would I have felt better if all the thousands of his ilk who maintain and support the hundreds of Hate websites had been eliminated in the same way? Yes, I would have rejoiced, so I'm no pacifist.

But those potential terrorists advertise their intentions proudly and defiantly every day. Afghani and Palestine peasants, captives to their religion, just don't bring the same emotions out in me. The posturing of the leaders, yes, but not the people trying to survive. So put Bin Laden on trial or kill him. It'll make a lot of people feel better, but it will surely elevate his status to that of a near god.

marty


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:53 AM

I've seen some posts that look like the posters think some people are advocating doing nothing at all in response to the attacks.

I could be wrong about this, but I don't get the impression that anyone is advocating doing nothing. What it looks like to me is that some people are advocating keeping a level head and not acting hastily, or out of anger, being careful to avoid hateful language and actions, and maybe most importantly, recognizing our own contribution to the current state of affairs in the world, and taking steps to correct our own behavior. I think it's all a matter of balance.

I think some people are asking others to be mindful of the difference between 'justice', and 'revenge', and to remember that our own behavior over the years has not been above reproach. So we need to ask ourselves if we are we willing to live up to the same standards of justice to which we would hold others?

I imagine my words might piss some people off, but I hope people will remember that since this is a place where we are all entitled to our own opinions, and since I have not flamed anyone, or behaved rudely in any way, people will respond with some kindness if they have any disagreements with what I have said.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: mooman
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:16 AM

As on many things, CarolC, I find myself in agreement with you again.

I am fully in favour of the perpetrators of these heinous and barbarous acts and those who harbour and support them being brought to justice and I hope that those who make the political decisions will keep a clear head and ensure they have conclusive evidence before acting rather than a wild kneejerk reaction. At the moment, almost all nations, including many in the Middle East are in sympathy with the USA and are horrified at was has happened.

Many of these nations have also pledged their support in both identifying the perpetrators of this outrage and in working together against the curse of mass terrorism. This is an opportunity that must be seized. I also believe that no-one will object to the USA taking whatever measures it feels are justified as long as these measures are based on evidence and are proportional and do not target innocent civilians in any country.

I am still stunned by what has happened and fully understand the expressions of revenge that many have expressed but hope that any response will be considered and take into account the support the USA has currently from the majority of the world.

mooman


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:30 AM

I was still unable to write anything with sense yesterday so I come late to the discussion.

What is the reaction in Germany? First some numbers and facts: Yesterday was to early for the newspapers to carry anything but quickl written articles. Today, the first nine pages of my newspaper and altogether 15 pages are solely devoted to the attack which shows you that it is not seen as something happening faw away with little relevance to us except having pity for the loss of human life. All major TV stations have changed all their programs to provide a continuous flow of information.

The overall impression is that this is an attack on 'us' and not on 'them' or 'you'. We are well aware that under slightly different circumstances and with a different group responsible it could have been Mainhattan (how we call Frankfurt at the river Main in jest for its skyline resembling an American town) instead of Manhattan or London or Paris (how long ago is it that a group threatened to bring a big civil plane down on Paris and only was intercepted at the refuelling in Spain?).

It is an attack not 'only' on thousands of humans but also on a lifestyle, an economy and values that are common since roughly fifty years to roughly spoken West Europe and North America. The disaster has hit us too and not only for the five confirmed German deaths (in the planes) and the several dozen still missing and presumed dead. We mourn with you and we ponder with you about the future consequences.

The attack has shown us a new quality of terrorism and war, a guerilla war without any restriction or remorse upon 'enemy' ground. Taken together all the West European terrorist/guerilla groups haven't claimed by their actions as many lifes over the last fifty years as have been lost within one and a half hours in New York.

Our own Red Army Faction has abducted planes with the aim of bargaining lifes for the freedom of their 'comrades' in jail and not with the aim to crash it on the Bundestag. Spain's ETA kills politicians and civilian deaths are still 'collateral damage' from their point of view. The 'liberation front' of Corse (Corsika?) bombs tourist hotel but only when they are empty and even the IRA has given (sometimes late, sometimes incompetent, sometimes misleading) warnings to bombs. I am far from painting these terrorists as goodies, but they have in common that they still have some restrictions in their methods of 'war'. Which of course doesn't make it any nicer if you or one of your relations is hit.

The future could bring us some copycat attacks on targets that were still considered unthinkable before: town centers, dams, nuclear reactors. They tell us the reactors are safe against an impact by a plane but I have seen yesterday an old interview with the architect of WTC telling years ago that the building was safe against any freak chance accident with a plane.

What can we do to prevent future attacks of that dimension or worse. I'm afraid that the gut reaction (take out the perpetrator as quickly as possible, increase saftey measures) will only be successful on the short run. It helps to soothe the feelings of hurt in America same (not in dimension but in feelings) as if the strongest guy on the schoolyard who has not only friends when finding that someone has pissed in his school satchel beats up the first one who chuckles.

On the long run, the conditions leading to feelings in a part of the world population that they have 'nothing to lose but their chains' will produce new martyrs and new ideas how to inflict the worst possible damage on what they perceive to be their enemy. Imagine a group gets a nuclear device in their hands and explodes it in a town. There are now enough people on the world who would do it right now if they could. No star wars program can help against that. A new Herostratos (or however he is spelled in English) is always easy to find.

We are safer if they wouldn't want to do it. We have to understand what pains them, what they feel to be injust, why they feel to be wronged, why they, appalingly to us, jump with joy about the news from New York. With 'they' I mean here not the terrorists themselves but the larger group from which they come from. Treat people in a way that they think they have nothing left to lose anymore then some of them might actually behave that way.

Freedom and safety for the world we love to live in will afford more measures than air sheriffs and stronger cockpit doors. I fear the politicians will only think about the easy measures. I fear that I'll live to see a nuclear bomb detonating in a town center or at an atomic reactor.

I hope I'm wrong

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner at work)
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM

Latin
Pie Jesu
Qui tollis peccata mundi
Dona eis requiem
Angus Dei
Dona eis requiem sempiternam
English
Merciful Jesus
Who takes away the sins of the world
Grant them rest
Lamb of God
Grant them everlasting rest

Andrew lloyd Webbers "Pie Jesu" Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM

Thanks Wolfgang, Carol, and especially T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) for your words. I am indeed advocating a reasoned and rational reaction to this strike. It is too easy to give in to our anger and strike out blindly. I am worried that the strike, when it comes, may be driven more by political concerns than by reasonable rational thoughtful considerations. We will hit them hard and fast and to hell with the consequences.

DougR, I do not know of anything being withheld now. I am worried about reinstituting an atmosphere of secrecy and paranoia. We have lived through that and been harmed by it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM

CarolC's talents at making rational observations and drawing logical and dispassionate conclusions about the nature of the opinions that people are expressing here are exactly the kinds of abilities that influential minds in the current U.S. administration need to be exercising right now.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Fiolar
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:16 AM

As time goes on the full horror of the events of September 11th becomes clearer. I am not ashamed to say I sat and cried as I watched the names of the dead scroll along the bottom of the screen on CNN. 20,000+ dead is a statistic but when one sees the picture of an innocent four year old and her mother, the urge to scream "may these murderers rot in the deepest hell" grows unbearable. Sinsull: In regard to "black" humour I have to agree. People who deal with the dead and the dying have to have some form of armour to keep functioning. As a nurse for over 37 years some of the "jokes" we used to tell were not what would be regarded in normal times as "pukha." Likewise many people may remember the one about Lockerbie.

My sincere sympathy and prayers to all those affected.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM

WOTCHA IS OK!!!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:35 AM

Another day, time passes, we adjust.........The outrage that we felt is perhaps not diminished but our powers of reason are returning. There are some incredibly wonderful posts on this thread. Wolf, I truly appreciate hearing from you and your always well thought posts. Thank you all.

The news continues and the many facets of this tragedy emerge. You can't help but be moved by all of the human stories.......The bears from Oklahoma City, people walking the streets with pictures of their loved ones, the grave and brave decisions made on the plane that crashed in PA, and the list goes on and on. Almost 300 rescue workers dead..........brave folks doing their job.

The speed with which the authorities have reacted in tracking down the perps is impressive even if a day late and a dollar short, is very impressive. The administration is foremost looking for retaliation, but I'm hopeful after hearing Colin Powell and Bush are talking to world leaders and attempting to form a coalition much like I have mentioned previously. If the terrorism is to be stopped at all, only a united coalition of world governments will do it. I hope the efforts are increased to this end.

It is equally discouraging to see the worst of us now taking vengeance out on those who even resemble people of Arabic lineage. The Klan mentality is still strong and I hope these fools are brought to justice as well.

In the end though it is the juxtaposed humanity against inhumanity that pulls me back to the TV and to this place as well. We are all affected by this war on innocents, some moreso than others. Watching the stories unfold you also ask yourself, what would I have done. Karen and I had that conversation this morning and it reminded me of our recent discussions on crisis of conscience. Then we think of what we can do now. I urge all of you to call your local relief and Red Cross organizations and see how you can help wherever you are. My absolutely best thoughts go to the many in NYC and DC now without husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, children, and friends. And indeed the many around the world personally touched by this act............

Finally, although I don't apologize for the throwoff line at the end of Thread 5, I do apologize to Sharon for "going off" on her remark, I am tired, angry, and scared.......and I don't like being any of those things. As the days pass and we perhaps make the right moves toward eliminating this insanity, then perhaps too, these things will pass as well.

Thanks for this place and the sharing and venting and reasoning that goes on here. I am thankful to you all.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:58 AM

Same as for Fiolar, a gruesome statistic of deads is easier to bear than a 'personalised' moment.
For me the worst moment came when my 4 yr. old daughter asked what for her is of utmost importance: "Have children died too in there?" I looked away not to show her my tears and with choked voice lied 'no'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:14 AM

Today I can finally cry.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: O'Trasno
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Well done y'all.

As a newcomer to mudcat and the world of the internet forum i've been blown away by the development of this thread,from the first post which led me to go and switch on the television(something i do about 3 times a year!)Throughout that day i watched the footage with the same disbelief shared by everyone,but where i really got a perspective on the story was here on the mudcat forum.

Disbelief,anger,pain,despair;they are all present in these postings...and i think that these threads qualify as an important historical document..real people,real feelings,not the filtered and sterilized BS from the official news agencies.

For me the threads provided the most up-to-date information on what was happening (news coverage in this little corner of the iberian peninsula is spectacularly inept),and was doubly valuable as i was supposed to be flying to New York this morning at the start of a 3 week tour.... now postponed till saturday,but i still have to meet with the musicians to see if they want to go ahead.

To sum up;Thanks to you all for sharing your thoughts,and good luck with putting your lives back together in the shadow of this disaster.

Umha aperta moi forte a todos

trasno


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:31 AM

Welcome to the 'Cat O'Trasno......It is a great place to be and we're glad to have you. We're a music community, but we are (with a few exceptions), human beings too. Though some will disagree, most of us here believe the 'Cat is a bit unique on the net and we're glad you've found us and have joined in.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: O'Trasno
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM

Cheers 'Spaw

And a special "well done" to you for directing the proceedings in such a sensitive way...

no mean feat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM

What a nice man. Hi there O'Trasno (or shall I just call you O'?)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM

Well, Spaw, I thought it was funny and it made me chuckle, and I know that was your intent.

Mister and I went to the State Fair last night with a couple of our friends. It was a nice diversion for a few hours. Nothing like a good old-fashioned Tilt-a-Whirl ride when the world seems like it's spinning out of control.

I say, we must find out who we are dealing with before we can adequately deal with them. And as I said in a previous thread, our military is going to have to revert to strategery, so to speak, rather than rely on technology.

I am going to relax this weekend. And probably have a few drinks.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: mooman
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:41 AM

Welcome too from me O'Transo. Hope you enjoy it here! And thanks for your post which is fully appreciated. I agree 'Spaw has excelled on coordinating this particular series of posts... and he is also one of those who makes the 'Cat a great place to be.

All the best

mooman


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:45 AM

Thanks, Wolfgang, for your thoughtful words. I also share your concerns for other "invulnerable" targets such as the N-power plants and radioactive waste dumps. If terrorists really feel they have "nothing to lose" there is no reason why these sites would be targeted. Their only security is that they are somewhat harder to find than major landmarks. I certainly feel no confidence in the assurances from experts that such sites would survive terrorist attacks, and once the containment (where it exists at all) is breached, the burning nuclear fuel would be as deadly as that of Chernoble.

Things have already changed here in the states, reaching down to even our small fishing villages in Maine where the lobsterboats have been "locked-down" by federal authorities. River access to the Bath Iron Works, a nearby shipyard which builds guided missle destroyers and crusisers, has also been restricted. I wonder when we'll be combing our attics for those old black-out curtains? Well, it's back to re-siding the summer cottage...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:58 AM

I hope this doesn't sound callous, but what really hit me hard was the deaths of the firefighters.

My dad was a firefighter until he retired about 10 years ago. Every day he went to work, my mom and I knew he might not come back. We would get Union mags from the firefighter's union, and the back page was always a requiem for firefighters who fell in the line of duty. New York always topped the list.

Firefighters are a unique breed; but their families are also different from other families in certain ways (which I imagine they share with the families of police officers and others who have a higher than average chance of dying in the line of duty): they live with the ever-present fear for the lives of their loved ones who work in dangerous duty. Every time Dad went into a burning building, it might have collapsed on him, he could have died from smoke inhalation, any number of things could have taken him from us. When he finally retired, my mom, my sister and I all breathed a collective sigh of relief: a sigh which had been pending for decades.

There were also moments of poignancy in his career as a firefighter. He rescued some kids in a trapped elevator once, and also he had a man die in his arms once. He was (and is) a strange contradiction of toughness and tenderness. I remember him crying when his last dog died. This from a man who had carried people from burning buildings, with hardly any thought of his own safety. Thank God he made it through alive, and is enjoying the fruit of his life's labors.

I feel so bad for the families of everyone who lost loved ones in these horrible, horrible attacks. But I really feel like I understand --from the inside-- a little more of the sadness of the families of the emergency workers. May they find strength and solace and hope in the days to come.

Alex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Peg
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM

I too appreciate Wolfgang's perspective. I do not have cable TV and on those occasions when I have been able to see news broadcasts from other countries, it has been strangely comforting (even the Russian one I could not understand).

We ae all changed; all citizens of the world. I pray we learn something from this and can go on somehow. Surely an end to suffering must come soon.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: mooman
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:01 AM

Thanks also Wolfgang. I am concerned also about many of the potential targets you mention. Many years ago (probably 20 now) while I was working as a technical writer and doing some work concerning the nuclear industry, I was allowed to walk unchallenged via the back entrance into the supposedly high-security Sellafield (then Windscale) plant in Cumbria, UK where the guards are armed (I hasten to add I did have official clearance to be there, but there was no check).

I did take the trouble to mention this on my way out via the main entrance and I sincerely hope security is better these days. I mention it only because this was in the "security-concious" UK at a time when there were many and various security alerts.

mooman


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:05 AM

Anything but calloused Alex...........they are indeed a special breed. I'd also like to hear the thoughts of 'Catter Dave Swan, a firefighter in the Frisco area (Piedmont FD)

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:08 AM

Alex that is not at all callous. We so often take for granted that there are people out there who will happily risk their lives to save others, and don't give them the credit they deserve. Firefighters, EMTs, policemen, soldiers, volunteers of all kinds... we just assume they're going to be there to do their jobs. Let us be grateful for them.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:23 AM

The wind shifted last night. I woke up at 4AM with six panicked kittens and cats on my bed. My first thought was that my house was on fire. A quick search turned up nothing. Then I realized that it was outside. This was the stench the rescuers were working in for days.

My phone and answering service are not working. But the phone keeps ringing. No one there and lots of static. The only calls coming through are from the Emergency Room at the local hospital. Somehow, they are coming into my line.

No one in my family or co-op is missing but with so many dead everyone knows at least one person unaccounted for. So strange - we always laugh when people from the midwest or foreign countries (yes- that's humor) say "You're from NYC? Do you know so-and-so? She and I went to school together." Now each of us knows at least one "so-and-so". One neighbor had a relative on the AA flight that crashed into the WTC. So many fathers, mothers, children unaccounted for.

A brief scare last night. Sid, the young man who lived with me, had not been heard from. I knew he wasn't in the WTC but feared he might have been on a plane. His company called trying to locate him. They hadn't heard from him since Monday - unheard of. The agent told me that they knew he was not on one of the planes because all travel is done through their office. But he may have been in the towers for a meeting. I felt sick. Turned on my computer and there was a message from Sid. His cell phone was out. He couldn't get through to anyone but had just gotten a connection on his laptop. I told him to contact his office and his mother.

There are constant sirens from the hospital and fire department. The only people brought in for treatment are injured workers. Still no planes flying over besides the fighter jet. For once, I am eager to hear a noisy plane disturb my day. I have enough bakery ingredients to stock a bakery but just can't concentrate on getting cookies made. I need to get out for a walk to clear my head. I've gained four pounds since Tuesday - the terrorists shot my diet to hell. In short, I am temporarily depressed. If I could just sit down and cry, I know I would feel better. But tears aren't coming.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: LR Mole
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM

Thanks, all. Strong shoulders, big hearts, keen minds. How terrifying it would be alone in all this...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:52 PM

I searched the other threads so that I wouldn't duplicate this post so if I missed it forgive me. This article from the Miami Herald summed it up for me better than anything I have read so far.....

************************************************

Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001 We'll go forward from this moment. It's my job to have something to say. They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed. Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God. Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.

IN PAIN

Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before. But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future. In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.

THE STEEL IN US You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish. So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started. But you're about to learn.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

Sins, so good to hear from you and your report from Ground Zero. New York is one helluva' place and for all of it's failings, the spirit of the place has always impressed me and no more so than now. CNN told of an injured fireman that the mayor was talking to in the hospital saying how much he appreciated all the fire service had done. The firefighter responded in that broad accent, "Whadcha' expect? I'm a New Yawker."

Now go try and bake a few cookies 'cause I'm counting on eating your very best soon. I'm cooking a turkey......I seem to have the need to put on a holiday meal tonight for some reason...........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:00 PM

Five firefighters found alive, some good news at last


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

AMAZING huh Roger??? FIVE OF NY'C's BEST ....... FOUND ALIVE!!! Hard to believe but wonderful news!

Also heard that the government is streamling claims procedures for the families of the emergency personnel so that claims are paid as quickly as possible. Money doesn't replace people, but families must go on and I was impressed with this move, it's the very least that couls be done.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:08 PM

It will make a precedent the insurance companies will have to follow, I hpe.

~S~


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM

I am exhausted today, my analysis machinery grinding to a halt because the swamp of tormented impressions and feelings and protestations and pain direct and indirect has finally asserted itself. I guess we all have our personal timing settings; I am numb with afterimages today.

I feel emotionally pinned down as though I were in the WTC wreckage. I am not going back to the base today although they have reduced the Threat Con to Charlie from Delta and i could probably get into the office witrh great inconvenience. I'll try to do some work from home. Waves of lassitude painted black and sad hit me from point to point like a blanket of black apathy; lifting fingers seems too much to ask.

Then it passes and life reasserts itself, as it always will, no matter what, and the future spreads out a little bit and possibility reappears.

Thanks to all of you -- whoever you are -- for being a forum that makes i possible to rant, ramble and cry "Anathema" to understanding ears.

Love you one and all,

Amos


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM

Yeah Amos......Been one helluva' time........i suggest cooking a huge feed.......but then I'm just a food addict and and it provides security. Normalcy has been forever changed, but ya' try.....ya' know?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

Pseudolus, thanks for posting that excerpt. It is true. This is a lesson from history the terrorists failed to take into account. When hit the US does not go all a-quiver and give up. Our pain strengthens our resolve and makes us stronger. It is like tempering steel.

But there also has to be some level of control. I am gratified that there is a go-slow attitude where the administration seems to be waiting for the evidence before they strike out. I hope the reaction is surgical and clean. We need no more innocent deaths on any side.

By the way, Spaw, I just want to add my appreciation for running this set of threads. Ya done good, kid!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM

Those who did this have hurt many more than they bargained for, and I hope the whole world at last combines to wipe out the horrors of terrorism. I too had to hold Freja, just 8, as she watched and knew there were children dying as well as adults. Everyone I know is deeply touched by this despicable act. I have to say that the Moslems that I work with are just as horrified and wish to see the insane murderers brought to justice, they are also fearful for themselves and the backlash that may yet happen. Wolfgang I think your words echo for us all.

Spaw, you held this togther well and again to all the peoples of America my sympathy and support. If all the might of NATO is needed to erradicate these acts, then so be it, but |I fear many more innocents of all races will die too.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:31 PM

So glad to hear of the five firefighters found alive! I hope they find many more.

Ditto on the kudos to Spaw.

Alex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:39 PM

I just read in our news that 90% of all USAmericans are in favour of a military reaction.
Two third I read are in favour of a military reaction even if innocent civilians are killed during that action.
The one datum I'd like to know was not presented: How many would agree with a military reaction even none of the culprits would be killed by it?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:02 PM

Further info on the 5 firefighters rescued today: They discovered a SUV under the rubble with five firefighters alive inside! Three were able to walk away! Imagine the joy of their families when they hear they're alive! And the pain of those who are still waiting, alas.

Alex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM

As most of you know I work on an Air Force base. Our unit is one of two that are tasked with responding to these "things." I've felt like I was in prison the last couple of days - bomb dogs sniffing our vehicles at the gate, searches of person and property by the Security Forces (SFS), only one entrance to the hospital and well guarded, two HUMVEEs with loaded M-60 machineguns overlooking the gate, and a million other things that remind me of another space in time. But we are here willingly. Many of our medics have gone to help someone somewhere - men and women, fathers and mothers, leaving their children behind on but a moments notice (2 hours to pack and go), and no outlet to talk about the insanity that has happened. Except the mudcat - Thanks to all of you -

And I always knew that Spaw had a heart bigger than life - Peace - Steve


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:06 PM

I'll never criticize SUVs again!!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: thosp
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

a related peripheral- one which i think supports very considered reaction - rather than knee jerk -article

peace (Y) thosp


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: MMario
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

my coworkers just heard they have another four locations "tapping"


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM

Eloquent and informative as you have been, today, Wolfgang, I'd like to thank you for your posting yesterday, esp. which took my breath away as it touched my heart. It is also good to hear the perspective from your country.

Skarpi, you, too, thanks so much for telling us about the prayers and flags flighing at half-staff/mast. Please tell your countrymen and women, we appreciate it very much.

Alex, my daughter's best friend is training to be a fireman. I worked with them, as an EMT, a long time ago. Her thoughts and mine went immediately to them and the other rescue workers. Their actions are so selfless in such horrendous situations as we've seen this week. Thanks be they are willing and able and may those who were lost be blessed forever.

Spawdarlin', you have done an outstanding job. In fact, I think we all have just been incredible. It's another tremendous example of why I still wish M'Catters Ruled the World.

I have been sleepless, so rigid with tension I could not eat, my eyes ached from so much weeping, but thanks to you all and these incredible threads, I am able breath deeply, now, see clearly, now, and release the tension, if not the sorrow, and begin to look around at what I can do next to help.

Thank you, everyone. You are the creme de la creme!

love you,

kat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM

NBC had Brokaw. ABC had Jennings. CBS had Rather. The Mudcat had Spaw.

Lucky us! :>}

LEJ


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

I'll take Spaw over the rest.

Regards -

Pete


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM

You done good, Spaw. DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM

Well gee.....I thank you all, but it was no big thing and as helpful to me probably more than anyone. but I do thank you.

Hmmmmmm............

Since I have your attention though, over on the Nostradamus thread, they have been talking about astrology, predictions, tarot reading and the like and King Brilliant suggested "Catspaw Scatology Cards" to be read in the "throne room" while attending to business. So I'm thinking since y'all are in such a good mood and all, I might as well try and make a buck.............

**********************************************************

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Fly-By-Nite Industries announced today that decks of "Catspaw Scatology Cards" will be released within the next month. Each card has a likeness of someone in the Catspaw family and can also be used in emergencies as asswipes. The "King of Crap" card has Spaw in all of his radiant glory showing a scene from his past where he had his palm read. It took several washings and a good deal of turpentine to get the paint off. The "Prince of Fools" card has Cletus whiffing the asses of the Reg boys and the "Circle of Light" card has Paw flaring off a bog one. Only those making prepayment will be shipped these Limited Edition decks. Those interested should mail cash (NO CHECKS PLEASE) in the amount of $49.95 (US) plus $18.97 Shipping and Handling to:

Fly-By-Nite Industries
842 Ripshitz Trail
East Bumblast, Ohio 43107

As always, with Fly-By-Nite, your satisfaction is guaranteed. Simply return the unused portion of of our products, and we'll retun the unused portion of your money.

**********************************************************

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Naemanson
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:21 PM

I already have a set. It's called toilet paper!

I just talked to my daughter as she dodged about the streets of London. She says londoners have been very kind to her over the last two - three days. Whenever they hear her American accent people come up to her to express their sympathy and offer condolences.

Thanks to all overseas who are with us in this hour.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Can I get a deck of those cards if I just promise you a belly dance? (and before anybody makes any wiseass comments about the ethnicity of belly dancing, it is not strictly Middle Eastern. thank you.)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Kernow John
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:46 PM

Mrrzy
Thanks for the news that WOTCHA is Ok.
I haven't heard from Brian in some time and was getting worried.
KJ


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:56 PM

Funny funny stuff. Weird reading all of these threads. People asking Why? How? Others saying Kill the bastards! Apparently even it means inflicting a little "collateral damage". (Such a nice way to describe the many dead in the WTC don't you think?) And now the necessary joking as we try to recover our equilibrium. But lets figure out where to go? Do we really want peace? I'd like to not have such things happen again anywhere in the world, not just America.

Can we figure out the necessary changes in the usual script so that we can come out of this better and without the worry? Wolfgang's statistic horrifies me.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM

Very sad news now......The 5 firefighters thought to be rescued were guys digging through the wreckage and fell into a void. This wasn't the media's fault as a number of different people had confirmed this including the rescue service. Just a sad case of the confusion....

On a better note, the Flight Data Recorder from the PA crash. No Voie Recorder yet, but maybe soon. The Data recorder from the 757 that hit the Pentagon is sending out it's homing signal so there's some hope there too.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:48 PM

This afternoon in Nashville, the Airport was evacuated when an unidentified Lear jet was ordered to land there. Turned out, their flight plan had been filed incorrectly. The error was corrected and the jet was sent on its merry way.

Downtown, three blocks of Broadway were closed when an unmanned backpack and suitcase were reported on the steps of the Customs House, a federal building. The high school across the street was locked down and the bomb squad called in. The items were taken to another location and blown up, just in case... but it was nothing. Who knows if it was a sick joke, or a wandering vagrant just sat their bags down.

Let the wild rumpus start.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:49 PM

I'm not exactly "fed up" but I am emotionally exhausted and tired of the war-mongering, hate mongering, trolling and flaming. Not only here on Mudcat, but also in the media.

I have heard all the news reports and recieved all the e mails I want on the subject for a few days-- I need space to think and I can't do that when the subject is worn out until we have hard news. I am tired of hash and re-hash just for something to say.

I am tired of being emotionally and visually assaulted by something I have done everything I can do about. If you don't hear much from me for a few days, go look in the Lyr Req threads. That is where I will be. Not in any of these others.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM

4 men have just been arrested at JFK airport, and earlier today 1 man was arrested at Heatrow airport under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, Scotland Yard are refusing to realese further details at this time.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Cllr
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM

I just found out that my next neighbor has two cousins who are/were fire fighters involved. One survived, one didn't.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:10 PM

I think I am two days behind everyone else. This morning the tears came and I wallowed in grief, anger, sorrow,...Then I came to life. Made a list of things to do. Bought and hung large flags and baked tons of cookies which have been delivered still warm from the oven to the local firehouse. This was all done to Kendall's "Beginner's Luck".
I baked chocolate chip cookies - the most "normal" I could think of. And now Spaw is hitting us with his usual nonsense. Put me down for a gross gross, Spaw.

Thank you all for helping me get past the worst.
Mary


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: bill\sables
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:58 PM

I was in the session in The Jug last night and was asked by Syd and Val (Landlord and landlady) who are without a computer but still consider themselves mudcat members, to convey their deepest sympathies for families of those who lost their lives and to say that their thoughts and prayers are with you all. Please know that we are all very much saddened by these events.
Bill


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SharonA
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM

catspaw: I accept your apology, and thank you. (Y'mean I'm not a dead maggot? ;^) ) It is precisely because I had read most of your posts that the "throwoff line" took me aback. I'm sorry for my knee-jerk reaction to it.


BTW, at work we're waiting for a shipment from Florida via Federal Express, which can't come overnight by air until there are open airports to send it from and to. Alternatively, we could have it sent by ground-shipment but would have to wait 3 business days for it. Just a small example of how far-reaching the effects of this terrorist act are.

This morning, on television, they showed the pictures of four people from the local (Philadelphia PA) area confirmed dead. When I got to work, my co-worker told us that one of those pictured was his best friend's son. It was only the kid's second week on the job in his WTC office. As if it could be any worse, the friend had lost another son around this time last year, in a boating accident.

What little news I've heard today includes: the rescue dogs brought into NYC to help find people alive in the rubble are being confused by the scent of all the pieces of dead bodies everywhere. Relatives and friends asking about loved ones at information centers and hospitals are being asked to go home and come back with the missing person's hair from a hairbrush, or some other article that would have the person's DNA, to make an eventual DNA match with the body parts as they're found.

Black humor as a coping strategy? If one is dealing directly with the dead and dying, I can understand it. However, if I may vent for just a moment: The first asshole in my real-time workplace whom I hear making some sick joke about this horror is in danger of feeling my shiny metal cane across his or her "coping" teeth. If the co-worker mentioned above doesn't get to him or her first. End of vent.

(Eh, it'll never happen. Anyone who knows me already knows better than to tell any racist jokes within my hearing, so I think they'll probably extrapolate...)

Thanks for listening. I'll check in again the next time the boss lets me out of the cell for exercise.

Sharon


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SharonA
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:21 PM

Hey! One of the paragraphs disappeared from my last post (the second one... hence the gap)! Let me try again to post just that missing bit of griping:

I'm tired and irritable too... in the midst of our national situation, it's also the usual crunch-time where I work, made worse by several rounds of layoffs over the past year and the resultant personnel shortage. I'm doing two jobs besides my own right now, and because we're so far behind schedule I'm under orders not to check the internet for news about what's happening north of us in NYC and south of us in DC and west of us in Somerset County PA.... feeling uninformed as well as surrounded by tragedy. I haven't even let myself cry yet (maybe on Sunday, when the plant is closed); if I let go, I'll never get done what I need to do. No one to hug at home except the cat, no time to go anyplace except to sleep and to work again. So I'm not at my best right now. Sorry again.

Okay, enough gripiness. I'm gonna go hug my cat now.

Sharon


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: O'Trasno
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:36 PM


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: O'Trasno
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:46 PM

Damn! Hit the submit while i was thinking about what i wanted to say...don't you hate that?!

SharonA, What a sad and poignant image at the end of this most extraordinary thread.To think of you slaving away at work with no time to think or grieve,then going home with only enough time to prepare yourself for the next day.....

For me,it's the opposite: "the events" have cost me my next month's work (a tour of the states) so i will have more than enough time to sit on my butt and contemplate the ways of mankind....

Consider yourself hugged my dear,you deserve it!

trasno


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:22 PM

Kennedy and LaGuardia are closed again. Ten people were arrested, four on a flight bound out of JFK to California. One of them had phony ID and a pilot's license. The news report is that a second wave of attacks has been narrowly averted.

Sorry, Spaw. We may need you to start Thread #7. I am weary of watching grown men cry. My son called tonight. His friend was there when the first building collapsed. A woman's legs were pinned under debris. He tried to help her but the sky was falling and he ran. My nephew can't talk yet; he cries. I still don't know what exactly he saw. A neighbor made it down from the 92nd floor but has no idea if anyone else from her company made it out alive.

One day at a time.

I have had my apartment up for sale for a while now. But I just may not be able to leave...M.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:57 AM

Someone asked yesterday why they are cooperating in NYC but we can't agree arond here.

Here is something that might change that.

CLICK HERE PLEASE.

~S~


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 06:32 AM

They've found the 'black boxes' from the airplane that crashed into the Pentagon.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:22 AM

I guess this whole thing has me in a stupor of sorts. I'm sitting here in central FL with a tropical storm/hurricane heading right for me and I don't give a damn. Didn't even bring in the yard stuff or garbage cans. I usually make hurricane preps, but not today.

Very bad attitude. Need to snap out of it. Now.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM

Good point Bob. I'm in Gainesville. Where are you?
Banjer, Harpgirl, you guys ok? Have you heard from any other Florida 'Catters?

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:03 AM

Thanks, O'Trasno; that was nice. Bob S, git off yer butt and do what you have to do! With all the news coverage of the NYC/DC crisis, we've heard virtually nothing about the hurricane (Erin, right?) here in PA. What's happening?

News: We had rain in the NY/PA region last night; still raining this morning. It's further hampering rescue efforts at the WTC. There are fears that the water will mix with the concrete dust and harden... but wouldn't that have happened already because firefighters have been hosing down the fire?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: MMario
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:18 AM

I hope this works - I didn't want to copy and paste this. from a ren-faire newsgroup...

click here


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:51 AM

I'm in Lakeland. The center of the storm should pass right over us in an hour or so. The rain has stopped for now. Winds out of the NE with gusts to 50. Not bad at all. This is Gabrielle, not Felix. It was a stationary system for days then took off last night. Original forecasts had it hitting up the coast on Sat,then Sun. Today is Friday, I think. Forecasting is like intelligence gathering. Not too accurate.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

Thanks for that link Mmario.

One thing at the special House of Commons reconvened today that was notable was the way both party leaders made a special point of stressing that there was no way in which the Islamic community should be blamed for what has happened, and were applauded for it. And when the memorial service was held later, Muslim community leaders and clerics were there alongside Christian and Jewish ones.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM

I think that everyone around the world with any sense of humanity, regardless of ethnicity or religion, thinks this week's incidents are absolutely deplorable; and I would like to think that if this had happened to some other country, we would still be having these conversations.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 01:57 PM

The sad thing is that when disasters like earthquakes happen in poor countries and tens of thousands of people are wiped out it hardly even makes it into our attention.

That's in no way saying that it's not right to focus on this tragedy at present, because it is - but I wish we could learn from it to pay more attention to things that in their own way are at least as terrible when they happen elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM

MMario, thank you so much for the link. That is beautiful.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM

One comment on the reports characterizing the grabbing of suspects off of planes, after such suspects turned out to be innocent, as overreacting. It wasn't. That is the appropriate response to a threat - you go with the possible, not the known. If the Feds and/or airlines had been doing this all along, we'd all have been a lot safer. IM(NSH)O.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**SIX -about enough huh?
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM

Looks like a new place to just ramble on might still be needed.

NEW THREAD--Number 7--IS HERE

Spaw


These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

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