A Peace Pledge

Subject: A Peace Pledge
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:15 PM

Please see this for some thoughtful ideas on what each of us may do to help create world peace: Peace Pledge Card

kat

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 07:45 PM

Yes, Kat. Good for you. I declare Peace. Now and always. No vengeance. I will resolutely defend myself when and if directly attacked, I will take reasonable security measures to prevent possible attack, I will attempt to meet others halfway and to resolve existing disputes...but no vengeance.

- LH

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

"There is no way to peace. Peace is the way."

I think Gandhi said that

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: RichM
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM

Peace...is not cheap.

It requires resolve, and willingness to teach your enemy.

Sometimes an enemy can be disarmed and won over by turning the other cheek. Is this one of those times? Maybe. Or maybe not. When it is certain who the enemy is, will be time enough to decide on a course of response.

It appears likely to be a middle eastern group responsible. Who else is willing to perform suicide missions? These men are not cowards, as some have suggested. They are warriors, although they serve an evil cause. They will not respect a culture that lays down and does nothing in return.

My father and uncles served 4 years in Europe in the second world war. They did what they had to. To protect us. And remove an evil from the world.

I think this current evil must be removed as well.

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Troll
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:32 PM

Nope! I'll take freedom over peace if peace means that I must let others spit in my face. I'll fight for peace but NOT at the expense of my freedom.
BTW, I'm not responsible for YOUR freedom. That's YOUR job.

troll

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM

I consider myself a man of peace, but if peace means standing by meekly while my neighbors are butchered, as long as I'm not directly attacked, count me out.

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 01 - 11:42 PM

Jeez, Rich and troll, I thought that stuff was being hashed out in the other threads. Really thought it would be good balance to have one where we could just take a breather and think about the alternatives to war. I didn't ask anyone to take the pledge, just said it was something to think about, basically.

A Pax on all of you!:-)

kat

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 12:14 AM

OH YEAH?
Well, the same to YOU, kat!
So THERE!

troll

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM

Tommy Peoples and Seán Tyrell played in Pittsburgh tonight. Seán sang this up-to-date version of an old song. I sat in the audience and choked back tears, especially when he said that they played in DC last night and had chosen this song for their set and only after did the significance strike them.


Rising of the moon

As we wander through the Universe on this dark winter's night
the children they're all dancing and the stars are shining bright
One more word must now be spoken out or sung to an old tune
Let's be friends this New Year coming at the rising of the moon.

So we gaze unto the stars that shine, with wonder in our eyes
Will we just destroy the planet or is peace to be the prize?
Cause the wail of fighting nations dims the beauty of the tune
Let's all dane the dance of Freedom at the rising of the moon

At the rising of the moon,
at the rising of the moon
Let's be friends this New Year coming
at the rising of the moon


May the wisdom of the Ancients with their message and their signs
come to shine on our tomorrows with the magic of their time
Like a star that shines on the wise men, Like the dawn that's coming soon
It's the truth that guides us onward at the rising of the moon

We can live within God's garden if we tend her with our care
We can understand the meaning and the motives of the fair
Though we stumble through the darkness trying far too much too soon,
Let's all stand up and be counted at the rising of the moon

At the rising of the moon
at the rising of the moon
Let's all stand up and be counted
at the rising of the moon


Lyrics by Padraig Stevens

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:50 AM

Geeze, kat, I love you babe, but how you propose that this thread is appropriate at this time in our country's history is beyond me.

Are you saying that we should just send a message to the Terriorists that did this that we understand their motivation and that we sympathize with them? Or that we are sorry that they don't like us? Or what?

Damn, kat, they are suggesting that perhaps 20,000 people may have lost their lives due to this Terriorist attack! What would it take for you to support an act of retribution?

DougR

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 07:15 AM

The people who directly did this are dead - dying themselves was part of what they were doing. It seems likely enough that there were other people involved in planning and coordiating it, but that is only an assumption.

Enormous and appalling as the result has been, all that was directly involved was perhaps a dozen people armed with knives. It's instinctive to look for a cause commensurate with the result, a target big enough to carry the load of retribution.

But maybe it does not exist, any more than it does with an earthquake.

In any case, there will be "retribution". There will more deaths, deaths of the innocent as well as the guilty. Nothing we say here can effect that one way or another.

But, let's remember, this thing was done by people who believed in the concept of retribution.

People who reject it, in all circumstances, are not the enemy. "Turn the other cheek; Love your enemies, do good to those that hurt you" - these were not the precepts of a coward or a weakling.

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:00 AM

Kat, the most sincere thanks.

Who said "Love thine enemy"? (Rhetorical question). Love denies the possibility of enacting revenge.

RichM, not only must one be ready to teach ones enemy, one must be equally ready to be taught by them.

There is a story of a leading Martial Arts teacher who had a reputation for the physical chastisement of his pupils. Word of this reached the teacher's own sensi, who visited his dojo one afternoon to watch the classes.

At the end of the clases the teacher approached his mentor, who commented:

"Your teaching is very fine, but I notice that sometimes you strike your pupils."

"Indeed, sensi, but it is always for their own good. I love my pupils and want only the best for them."

"I see. If you never strike them with anger in your heart then I am sure you are correct."
(If I could remember the source I'd acknowledge it; I suspect it's K. Tohei).

George

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: GUEST,Hille
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:41 AM

I was always a "peaceful" person until I was moved (I was homeless with 2 small children) into a small neighbourhood where my peaceful presence was a constant (like all day, every day) invitation to the other people there who resented my presence because:

1) I had a job, thus a car 2) I kept my house and garden clean and tidy 3) I went to Church 4) I wore glasses 5) to begin with I had a social life that didn't involve sitting on my doorstep for hours at a time waiting a fight to break out 5) I respected the Law

After 2 and half years of constant abuse every time I stepped outside my house (and the house had a right of way right across the back garden past my back door so, there would be a constant circling stream of people casually kicking over my window boxes, damaging property, swearing at my small children, crowds of youngsters throwing eggs, stones, excrement, physically and verbally abusing my visitors and their vehicles (who stopped coming); after I twice pulled my 6 year old off the window ledge because he wanted to "die and live in Heaven where it's nice instead of living here"; after my 8 year old was on tranquilisers; after coming home from hospital having seen a friend die and being attacked;after I was on anti-depressants, after I lost my job due to the stress - after all that I was finally able to move to a lovely neighbourhood.

I would still have no compunction in using a inhumane killer through the space between the ears of most of those involved. Not only did they put nothing into the World except a lot of hate and negativity, I also stopped going out to do all the good positive voluntary work I used to do, having soup mornings as I had at my previous house, generally my life up until this point had been about serving the community and helping people - because I could not bear the aggression and abuse every time I opened my front door - they would line up outside and wait and if they got bored throw stones.

I tried every legal means to help myself - but the Police couldn't do anything if everything had stopped by the time they arrived, one time when I was beaten up when I opened my front door to ask them to go away the crowd outside told the Police I had started it.

This was a painful learning process for me - to realise that communication and negotiation just does not work with some humans, also that God didn't listen to any of my prayers and that in the end the only person who helped me was myself.

Being peaceful means being kicked by some people to whom ignoring them and hoping it goes away just indicates weakness.

Freedom comes at a price - but it's one we must pay if we want peace. (And by that I don't mean innocent people being bombed in retaliation) Hille

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 09:53 AM

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate - and quickly."

- "Lazarus Long" (Robert A. Heinlein)

P.

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:06 AM

Doug, in none of my posts over the past few days have I said I do not believe we should go after whoever is guilty of this tragedy. (I still think we should take our Saddam Hussein! BUT, there will always be others to take their place.)

BUT, I have also posted a few, what I think are balancing perspectives (the Dalai Lama & the press release about the Indian governement's Vedic Shield project), which offer something beyond war, for all humans to strive for, as, even if we do get whoever is guilty, it will still be the same old shit, different day, in the way the world goes about its business, i.e. the way the governments think and operate. Yes, they will be on their toes more and we will see some freedoms lost because of it, but the basic financial and political machines will still operate in the same way.

All I am saying is that if we REALLY want to change the world and believe that we CAN make it a better place of peace, then we have to start with ourselves. I don't want to make war on my neighbours; I'd rather be peaceful with them and get along. Our government mind-set has always been the opposite because of politics involved. Well, I am saying, beyond this week's horrible events, while the governments sort it out and take out whomever was involved, WE, the ordinary people of our planet CAN try a different mind-set and believe that we can create a different world than we now hove.

Someone said in another thread that the New Age was dead. I say Fuck that. The new age was a misnomer, as some of the principles and ideas have been around for centuries; in fact at the turn of the last century there were far thinkers who had already been using the metaphysical principles of what people now call the "new age." Yes, it has attracted some fringe elements and some very stupid, gullible people, but if one really examines the metaphysical principles of some of it, they are sound and ancient.

If one has to be ridiculed for believing in such principles and in believing that WE have the power within our minds and hearts to change our world, then so be it. It has never been a popular stance, anyway. Most people would much rather not take that much responsibility for their lives and all that happens to them. It's a lot easier to blame something on "god" than to look at our consciousness and examine our patterns of thinking.

This is not rose coloured glasses thinking. It is more a view of how can I, as an individual, help balance the world, through my thinking, words, and actions, because I know it's not a pretty sight most of the time.

I believe it matters what we put into our subconcsious. I believe it is like a computer, it accepts whatever data we put into it and has no way of discerning whether it is positive or good, it takes everything for literal truth. I believe our subconscious can manifest what we put into it, good or bad, because of its wide-open acceptance of what we program it with. I believe we need to be careful of that imput and watch our words and thinking. And, that is why I believe, regardless of what the immediate future holds in the needs of retaliation, etc., that I can hold onto a hope for peace and try to create it within my own very small world in the hopes others will do the same and we can get a "ripple" effect. I recognise it could take longer than my lifetime, but I would be damning my soul (in my mind and heart) if I did not do this and I don't even wanna think about what the next lifetime would be like if I do that!

luvyakat

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM

This is a time of high emotionalism and reaction. Unfortunately, this doesn't reveal understanding. This horrible incident was a long time coming. It had to happen. The reason for it has to do with the limited understanding we have in this country about foreign cultures and religions. The mistake is to try to equate and evaluate what other cultures do using our own yardsticks. Fundamentalism in religion has lead to an increased intensity regarding such issues as "rapture" and "jihad". The idea of a kamikaze attitude toward warfare is inherently alien to American sensibilities. The fanatacism that we see in the Toliban or other highly fundamentalist religions is inscrutable to us. The most important thing we can do now is to affirm our principles that we cherish in this country, pass them on to our children and not allow hatred or blind retribution to possess us. We need more understanding about those who would harm us. (IE: I wonder how many members of the CIA can actually speak Arabic well or have any true knowledge about fundamentalist Muslim religious sects?) This is a time of grief but also cool heads. To overreact would do damage to us. I have felt this grief for some time because I realized the impasse that our attitudes as well as those who would hurt us would eventually surface. The only breakthrough is to understand more fully the minds of those who we would so easilly dismiss as demons. Frank

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: GUEST,Timbrel
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM

It is possible to act in peace.

When we lose lives, we become angry. When we get angry, we want revenge. So the cycle continues.

I feel that, though we DO need to act, we need to act of dignity and rationality -- not out of our rage. We need to act because we are strong and we see that act as a sacrifice for the improved time of peace we hope it will bring.

The stories about "I was a pacifist until..." are sad. No one EVER said peace was easy and we shouldn't expect it to be. It is NOT a hearts-and-flowers hippie concept. It is not a concept that you only use when you don't need it. Hell, they killed Jesus for even suggesting it. It is a FAR more difficult ideal to work with than the strike-and-revenge model. It is precisely when it is MOST difficult that we need to act out of desire for peace. Because we all do deplore this tragedy, don't we? If we deplore it, if we are angry, sad, lost, let us recognize that those reactions are CAUSED by those without the thought of peace. That hatred of peace is what we must work to eradicate. Are we not a strong, generous, brilliant nation? Then let us respond carefully, thoughtfully, and with dignity. Of course it will mean loss of life. But there can be no peace without justice.

I just hope that we can think without hatred. Hatred caused this. And don't fool yourself into thinking that a few bombs will take care of the problem. It's a bigger problem than that. I suggest there is something we can do, right away, and that is to act with unity as Americans in our hearts, to stand up against bigotry, hatred and injustice wherever it is found, within or outside of our shores, and do what we can to improve ourselves and the world.

Those who suggest peace are not suggesting passivity. They are only suggesting that our actions be rational and thoughtful and unified.

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Jim Krause
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 03:00 PM

I remember (somewhat) a line from the movie "Gandhi" which Ben Kingsley starred in the title role.

Journalist: "I believe in an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."

Kingsley as Gandhi: "Very good. And what will you do when the whole world is toothless and blind?"

The song I Ain't a-Marchin' Anymore by the one and only Phil Ochs comes to mind. Thanks Kat. Good thoughts. I was hoping I'd find some support and sympathy for the peace position. I knew I could count on the Catters.
Jim

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 04:50 PM

Thank you, Jim and Timbrel.

Like I said, "A Pax on all of you!"*bg*

luvyakat

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM

You can also have peace if you roll over and play dead.

troll

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

It's strange, a bunch of religions which are all essentially say the same things about loving our neighbours and being compassionate and returning good for evil and that. But when push comes to shove, all that goes out the window.

And yet while we none of us clearly as cultures have begun to understand what our religions are about, we use them as markers for which side we are on. (And before anyone jumps in and says it's all down to religion, atheism counts as one of those religions in my book.)

As the old slogan might perhaps more accurately say, "When the going gets tough, the tough give up..."

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: Troll
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 06:13 PM

You can also have peace if you roll over and play dead.

troll

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

kat: Smaaaaaaaack!

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 10:18 PM

Love you, too, DougeR, but is that a smooch or are you trying to jumpstart my brain?

:-)kat

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:01 AM

Oh it was a smooch, of course! I'd never try to tamper with your brain. **BG**

DougR

Subject: RE: A Peace Pledge
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:59 AM

LOL....I think it's done been tampered with already anyway, darlin'!**BG**

Smmmmooooch, back atcha!

kat