BS: Someone found the words to say

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:00 PM

Doug R - of course not. I was originally replying to Amos'post because it was pointing out the consequences of holding Afghans responsible for the actions of Bin Laden. But events suggest that there are two kinds of terrorist - those who are completely destructive and don't care what anyone thinks about them (like last Tuesday) and those who are fighting for their freedom in their own country and want to end up ruling it. The former will exploit the latter wherever possible, as is happening in Afghanistan and will be made easier by indiscriminate retribution. The latter kind you find you eventually have to negotiate with and they eventually become part of the political system, as in Israel(and I don't just mean the PLO), Ireland and Africa(where they are euphemistically called "freedom fighters"). There doesn't seem to be much point in military action against Afghanistan, because now the international aid organisations have pulled out millions will probably die of starvation anyway, on account of there having been a serious drought for several years. The people who are most dangerous are the people with nothing to lose, as was demonstrated by Germany, crippled by reparations bills after the First World War, and why there was a Marshall Plan after the Second World War.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

We'll see, Herga Kitty, we'll see.

Anyway, I assume you are of the opinion that if the Terriorists understood the POV of the United States, they would not have committed this act of terror.

Is that what you believe?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:14 AM

Since when have Governments been interested in other countries' freedom, unless it suits their own ends? How do you think the Taliban got to power in Afghanistan - they were supported by the US because they opposed the Russians. There is no sign that Governments are working together for freedom from want, hunger or intolerance - so freedom is an illusion and so is peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:00 AM

Herga Kitty: "military action is all about not seeing the other person's point of view." Are you serious? Surely you jest!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:39 PM

World Peace doesn't come until after Zephram Cochrane makes the first warp flight in the early 2060's, a good 20 years after Word War III, where a group called The Eastern Coalition bombed out all the US's major cities...

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:18 PM

What is at stake here is not peace, but freedom.
We could have peace if we (the world) capitulated and let bin Laden take over and run things his way.
We would have peace but freedom would be gone.
Don't confuse one with the other because they are not the same thing. I don't think that I, or most of the world, would care for bin Ladens brand of peace. Peace at the price of freedom strikes me as a bad deal.
What we should all work for is freedom in the world: freedom of thought, religion, and mobility and freedom from want, hunger, and intolerance.
Do that and peace can take care of itsself.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

Amos, thanks for spelling it out as it really is. Joe, I fear your prayers will be in vain. Military action is all about not seeing the other side's point of view. The perception here is that US foreign policy isn't determined by what's good for the world, but what's good for US companies, even if it undermines elected governments. World peace requires a much more thoughtful and considered approach than retribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 07:03 PM

Thanks, Amos. It's good to know that there are still some people who are willing to speak out on behalf of the innocent people who suffer the effects of warfare. War is a strange thing - whenever we wage war, we're never able to hurt the people who deserve to get hurt, the powerful people. Somehow, they're always able to find themselves a comfortable exile. On rare occasions, they might commit suicide, leaving millions to suffer the consequences of their actions.

If we take military action against those who brought about the tragedy of this week, I pray that not one innocent life is lost.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Amos
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM

Someone else also found some words that need to be said:

At war with whom? By: Tamim Ansary

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?

You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.

Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary -

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From:
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 04:19 PM

Someone sent me this from a Genealogical forum she is on:

During this terrible, frightening time, this poignant e-mail from an 18-year old young man named Charles Brennan reminds us how strong and how blessed we really are to live in this great country:

"An open letter to a terrorist:
 
Well, you hit the World Trade Center, but
you missed America. You hit the Pentagon,
but you missed America. You used helpless
American bodies, to take out other
American bodies, but like a poor marksman,
you STILL missed America.
 
Why? Because of something you guys will
never understand. America isn't about a
building or two, not about financial centers,
not about military centers, America isn't
about a place, America isn't even about a
bunch of bodies. America is about an IDEA.
An idea, that you can go someplace where
you can earn as much as you can figure out
how to, live for the most part, like you
envisioned living, and pursue Happiness.
(No guarantees that you'll reach it, but you
can sure try!).
 
Go ahead and whine your terrorist whine,
and chant your terrorist litany: "If you can
not see my point, then feel my pain." This
concept is alien to Americans. We live in a
country where we don't have to see your
point. But you're free to have one. We don't
have to listen to your speech. But you're
free to SAY one. Don't know where you got
the strange idea that everyone has to agree
with you. We don't agree with each other in
this country, almost as a matter of pride.
We're a collection of guys that don't agree,
called States. We united our individual
states to protect ourselves from tyranny in
the world. Another idea, we made up on the
spot. You CAN make it up as you go, when
it's your country.
 
You guys seem to be incapable of
understanding that we don't live in America,
America lives in US! American spirit is what
it's called. And killing a few thousand of us,
or a few million of us, won't change it. Most
of the time, it's a pretty happy-go-lucky kind
of Spirit. Until we're crossed in a cowardly
manner, then it becomes an entirely
different kind of Spirit.
 
Wait until you see what we do with that
Spirit, this time. Sleep tight, if you can.
We're coming.
Charles Brennan"

Love your families, your neighbors and each other. Hold them close and tell them over and over how you feel. Live every day to its fullest, secure in God's love.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:29 PM

Those who took part in the attack on the US were not brave, they were misguided, fanatical psychopaths. They died in the misguided belief that God wanted their sacrifice and that their place in heaven was assured. Osama Bin Laden is a blasphemous spawn of the devil who twists the words of his faith's Holy Book to increase his own power on earth.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:14 PM

Ain't nothing wrong with sabre rattling
As Mohatma Gandhi once said after he snapped off the nose of a particularly persistent antagonist - "Even the snake bares his teeth to warn you, rather than engage in dangerous combat"
The article is only saying what he thinks 266 million Americans are saying. When of course there are only 256 million saying it
As long as the word "measured" is applied correctly

AND where is Sadman Hussein in all this? That finger wot points seems to be moving a bit west of late. My colleagues are going to eat humble pie on Monday.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: jmdornan
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

There is nothing that compares to the raw pain and anguish of those it directly touches. I thought the article stated something we all must be feeling... J-

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:44 AM

What hack journalist could say anything that compares to the hundreds who stand in the streets and hold placards with a photo and a description, simply asking, "Did you see them alive?"

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:34 AM

No argument with the statement that it was a 'cowardly act.'

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

It was a cowardly act because the victims were innocent civilians who had no warning and, had they been warned, no means of defending themselves.
Physical bravery and a willingness to die are not the issues here. Certainly it took guts to sit in those cockpits and watch the buildings rushing toward them.
No, the cowardice I speak of is the moral cowardice of the sneak atack on innocent men, women and children (there was a day care center in the WTC). The Pentagon is a legitimate military target as are the White House and Airforce One. A surprise attack on them could be construed as having some justification.
But the attack on the Twin Towers was an act of cowardice.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: jmdornan
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:47 AM

I think I posted this beacuse the article said alot of things from someone's heart that we have all thought of at some point. I agree with military action at this point, but not a hastey action that will be uneffective. I think we are all angry at what happened, sadden also.. and above all shocked and terrified. This was never suppose to happen to us " the greatest counrty in the world" but it did. We need to remember to feel all those things in the article... then beacuse we are americans we have the privalge of being able to express our opinions freely !!! So try to express them but with out sniping at the operson who doesn't agree with you .. if there is someone who is trolling or flaming .. let them and don't answer.. try to take the high road . bless you all Jill

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: RangerSteve
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:00 AM

By the way, that was Leonard Pitts who wrote that column. A very eloquent man. I agree with jmdornan. Mr. Pitts said it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:54 AM

Bob P,

From someone who is too cowardly, supposedly, to adopt a 'handle,' thank you for posting a distinction that this poster had not the courage to do, for fear of being misinterpreted as 'stirring things up.'

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:52 AM

They are bad guys but sinking to their level is not the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Son of the Mill
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:46 AM

When your brain catches up to the rest of your body, we may have a meaningly dicussion. Hic! Cheers Mal.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Bob P
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:34 AM

I gotta admit I've heard this "cowardly" stuff since Reagan used it when a marine barracks was attacked via suicide bomb in Lebanon years ago.

But if the bomber opts to "march into hell for what he believes is a heavenly cause" is that cowardly?

"Misquided?" okay.

"A pawn in their game", fine!

But, "cowardly"?

Applied to Mr. Laden. and his staff? No problem!

But lets not use it to describe the bombers.

They gave their lives willingly for their cause.

That's not cowardly, to me.

Whoever first coined the line, "those who give the orders are not the ones who to die", Sure hit the nail on the head.

Sure seems an appropriate contemplation now.

Since Adolph's close circle get their due, the definition of war has changed to insure the safety of those who give the orders.

And that applies everywhere, not just the Middle East.

Remember that Mountbatten fellow? his attackers didn't die. Did anyone use "coward" then.

In fact most IRA bombings of buses and such were against the very same innocent types as got hit Tuesday except the bombers didn't perish on purpose.

Cowardly?

Words like coward and hero are surely strange.

Babe Ruth and Henry Aaron were heros. But their heroism doos not compare with like Gambol Rogers who drowned while trying to save a swimmer.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: MMario
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 09:05 AM

rhetoric yes, but with a lot of truth in it. What hasn't been spoken of a lot is that as well as the US - major Japanese, Chinese, German and other international companies had offices in those buildings. This is an American tragedy - but it is also a widespread international tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:40 AM

Peg is not a jerk, Amos, I agree. She has a right to her opinion.

Peg, what additional evidence do you need that the bombers are the bad guys? That they wear the black hats? That they deserve more than a spanking?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:28 AM

Awright. Awright. I 'pologize.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:20 AM

Troll:

Peg is NOT a jerk.

Neither are you!!!

For the luvva Pete, how about remembering who your friends are?

Anyway, the piece is very well written for what it is, which is understandably spun up. It is rhetorical.

And it is well done rhetoric.

But I think maybe Peg's point is that rhetoric -- however satisfying -- may take us further from 'the best course with the clearest understanding of consequence', a desireable goal in a time of great pain.

Anyway, neither of you are jerks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM

Peg, you are a jerk.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Someone found the words to say
From: Peg
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 11:35 PM

Most unhelpful. Arrogant, Petty Anger. I think the smoke should clear before all this hateful spew is allowed to surface.

Subject: Someone found the words to say
From: jmdornan
Date: 13 Sep 01 - 02:47 PM

Miami Herald: Editorial to the Terrorists Responsible

Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001 The Miami Herald Leonard Pitts

We'll go forward from this moment. It's my job to have something to say. They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troublesthe American soul.But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering. You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team'smisfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent,though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God. Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannotbe measured by arsenals. IN PAIN Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development rom a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before. But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you,I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future. In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be >done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined. THE STEEL IN US You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish. So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that >maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.