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Media Blitz, Terrorist victory

CRANKY YANKEE 14 Sep 01 - 10:35 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 10:46 PM
CarolC 14 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM
RichM 14 Sep 01 - 11:37 PM
DougR 14 Sep 01 - 11:44 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 14 Sep 01 - 11:52 PM
Troll 14 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM
CarolC 14 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM
Troll 15 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM
CarolC 15 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM
Banjer 15 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM
Ebbie 15 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM
annamill 15 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM
The Shambles 15 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM
Jim Dixon 15 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM
CarolC 15 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM
Ebbie 15 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM
catspaw49 15 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM
DougR 15 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM
Charley Noble 15 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 15 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM
Jimmy C 15 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM
Jim Dixon 15 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM
Ebbie 15 Sep 01 - 03:46 PM
DougR 15 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM
Murray MacLeod 15 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM
catspaw49 15 Sep 01 - 08:11 PM
Helen 15 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM
catspaw49 15 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM
catspaw49 15 Sep 01 - 08:38 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 01 - 03:28 AM
The Shambles 16 Sep 01 - 03:35 AM
CarolC 16 Sep 01 - 04:10 AM
The Shambles 16 Sep 01 - 05:14 AM
The Shambles 16 Sep 01 - 05:18 AM
Banjer 16 Sep 01 - 05:41 AM
CarolC 16 Sep 01 - 05:53 AM
HelenJ 16 Sep 01 - 05:59 AM
CarolC 16 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM
CarolC 16 Sep 01 - 06:04 AM
The Shambles 16 Sep 01 - 06:14 AM
sophocleese 16 Sep 01 - 09:52 AM
Banjer 16 Sep 01 - 09:27 PM
CapriUni 16 Sep 01 - 09:32 PM
Paul from Hull 16 Sep 01 - 09:38 PM
The Shambles 17 Sep 01 - 02:48 AM
DougR 17 Sep 01 - 12:59 PM
GUEST 17 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM
The Shambles 17 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM
Troll 17 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) 17 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM
GUEST 17 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM
CarolC 17 Sep 01 - 08:42 PM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 01:49 AM
CarolC 18 Sep 01 - 02:16 AM
The Shambles 18 Sep 01 - 05:10 AM
PeteBoom 18 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 04:11 PM
The Shambles 19 Sep 01 - 03:18 AM
DougR 19 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM
GUEST 19 Sep 01 - 04:06 PM
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Subject: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:35 PM

I tried to send the following to the news departments of NBC, CBS and ABC. In each case, I got the old "Never heard of them" from AOL.

Has it not occurred to someone, that the longer you continue your "single subject programming", the more the enemy will have succeeded in bringing us to our knees.

When the President, tuesday afternoon, said, "Business as Usual", you should have done just that. Instead you continue to show bereaved relatives, frustrated rescue operations and news reports that show damage to ourselves and our cities. We see the same films of the towers being struck and later the two buildings crumbling to the ground.

The Mother Country (U.K.) London and Coventry, in particular suffered devestation the likes of which most of you couldn't possibly imagine. Coventry was literally wiped completely off the face of the world

Every time you show the same scenes, over and over again, I envision our terrorist enemies jumping up and down with joy and elation, congratulating eachother on having parallyzed the most powerfull nation the world has ever seen.

Thank you, "Mother" and our German friends for your show of solidarity.

Nothing has happened since Tuesday afternoon that couldn't have waited for the regularly sheduled News programs.

You tell children that they "Don't feel as safe anymore" and then you ask them how they feel about all this. Then you get the reply that you expected, children telling you about feelings that YOU originated in the first place

I was 12 years old on Dec. 7th, 1941. I remember it as if it happened yesterday. The feeling of "not being safe anymore" never occurred to me or anyone that I knew in my age bracket. Do you want to know how we felt? We were damned angry, and I, for one,knew that the Japanese couldn't possibly win and that they had just taken on the strongest industrialized nation in the world.

Would you like to know how I knew this?

I knew this for a certainty, because, right after the announcement, when the radio station went back to the Brooklyn Dodgers football game that I'd been listening to,My Dad sadly shook his head and said, "They can't possibly win, They've just attacked the strongest industrialized nation in the world".

I want to resist saying, "Get your heads out of your collective asses, and realize that you've just handed our enemies a tremendous victory". But, I don't think I can.

Very truly yours

Mr. Jody Gibson.


DIFFERENT SUBJECT:
To our German, Italian, Russian, Japanese and (hopefully) Chinese friends:
It tookSincerely yours me a long time to finally realize that even in the closest knit families, we sometimes get into scraps. But, when the smoke clears,we can become even closer with a little bit of understanding.

Sincerely yours

Jody Gibson.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:46 PM

CY, AOL is junk. Get a different server if you can.

troll


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM

CRANKY YANKEE, I disagree very emphatically with pretty much all of your points.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: RichM
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:37 PM

Let them rejoice, for now. We however are all grieving, and need to express that.

But, make no mistake: Those who did this will suffer. Anyone who targets 50,000 civilians will get no mercy.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:44 PM

Cranky Yankee, so are you proposing that everyone begin watching soap operas instead?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:52 PM

The tragic events of Tuesday were in the news of every country in the world, (I watched today as EVERY city in Europe observed 3 minutes silence), this is for the simple reason that this was not an attack on America, it was an attack on democracy, and I pray that the terrorists that committed these cowardly murders understand that they cannot get there own way by violence.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Troll
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:53 PM

No, comrade. Nothing happened at Chernobyl. Have some more vodka.
I don't think so!

troll


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM

What better time for us as a nation to look deep into our collective soul, via such media as television and places like the Mudcat, to see what we need to hold on to, and what we need to let go of?

Here's just one example, but I think a very significant one...

The film and television industries are now in the process of taking a serious look at their practices, and rethinking whether or not they want to continue to use violence as a way to make a profit to the extent that they have in the past.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Troll
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM

Betcha they do!

troll


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:54 AM

How much?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Banjer
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM

I think that Cranky Yankee does make a valid point. If the programming was a little more balanced it might help some get back to a 'normal' lifestyle(who can define normal these days). Some folk need a constant reminder of an event (not limited to Tuesdays events) while others made up their minds in the first day what they feel needs to be done. Let each make his own decision, that would be true freedom, which is what the terrorists attacked.

As for the movie angle, I too am afraid that there are at least some fancy pants Hollywood types rubbing their hands in secret glee and calculating the dollar value of the movies they are already formulating. Disgusting I know, but what's the old saying, "That's Hollywood".


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM

Maybe in each emergency every local community in America could have pills to hand out to everyone that would keep us all placidly leaving the response to our elected officials, so that we could continue on with our normal lives? That way the entertainment industry, the stock market, the airlines, our schools and industries and a myriad of other innocent victims could evade the high costs they are suffering today. Surely the business of America is business.

That way, too, we could avoid the pain.

:~(


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

Some folk need a constant reminder of an event (not limited to Tuesdays events) while others made up their minds in the first day what they feel needs to be done.

Well, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but the news coverage I've been watching for the last few days was not at all about rehashing what happened on Tuesday. It was about what has been happening since Tuesday, as well as deepening our understanding of what happened on Tuesday, and there was plenty to fill up several days of news reportage. And I was watching to learn as much as possible about where we might be headed.

Anyone who did not watch very much of this coverage really missed out on something very significant.

And the idea that someone could make up their mind about what they feel needs to be done long before we have any information even about what really happened, and by whom, is a pretty scary thought to me. That's the kind of thinking that gets us into trouble time and time again.

This period in our history is offering us incredible opportunities to learn some very important things. If we put blinders on and shut out everything that doesn't fit into our preconcieved ideas about what's what, we'll not only lose this precious opportunity, we could very well end up regretting whatever decisions we make in the long run.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: annamill
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

I think that was the Brooklyn Dodgers BASEBALL team.

;-)

Love, Annamill


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

This case is different from most terrorist attacks. Not so much for its scale but for the constant surreal images of that Dali sky, juxtaposed with airliners dissapearing into New York buildings, were played out in front of, and has traumatised us all.... As if we were all there.

I don't think that the world watching the subsequent suffering, should be seen as showing or admitting defeat or weakness. The guilty's thoughts are not important, for these will not be changed and they know the real strength of the nation they chose to attack.

Victims of indescriminate bombings, receive he watching world's compassion. The bombers receive the condemnation of the world...... Usually the latter is the USA......

Generally though, I think that the the constant media speculation about who may have committed this and any other atrocity, should be toned down and hopefully the media will eventually agree to do this themselves.

For this provides those who are responsible with the coverage for their cause, that was the whole point of the carnage.

It is only necessary for the security services to know which particular group of fanantics may have been involved, in order to catch and prevent them. For any point they may have had is automatically invalidated by the tactics used.

If us not knowing this information were to result in making us all a little safer, would it make this 'freedom to know', a freedom that we may be prepared to sacrifice?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM

Gee, Cranky, I think the media blitz has been showing America at its best. It is building solidarity. It is making us forget the issues that used to divide us. It is helping us mourn. It is helping us formulate ideas about what we will do next. It has been reminding us of what is good about America. Internationally, it is building more support in other countries than we have had for years. If people in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. are seeing it, I can't imagine it is doing anything but eroding support for Osama bin Ladin and the Taliban. (Does the Voice of America still exist? Does it reach them?) It is putting a human face on America, where people formerly thought of us as the Great Devil. It is waking people up who formerly didn't care what happened to us. It is showing people just how bad terrorism is. Those things are all good.

If you are in a hurry to get back to "business as usual" -- it's too bad that business as usual for you means watching so much junk TV. Maybe you ought to pursue "business better than usual."

But wait-- I have to qualify that. I note that you are remembering a time when you were 12 years old. That's significant. Kids are different. Kids are mostly unable to appreciate the positive effects I described above. Kids DO need "business as usual" to reassure them that life will go on. Parents with small kids SHOULD pursue business as usual to a certain extent. But for them, it's a shame, too, that business as usual might mean watching junk TV. So in that case, TURN THE TV OFF. Or if you have cable, switch to the Discovery Channel, the Learning Channel, the History Channel, Nickelodeon, Animal Planet, the Disney Channel, the Cartoon Network. Those are all pretty much sticking to "business as usual."

One more thought, Cranky: If too much of the truth bothers you, maybe you didn't come through your WW2 experience as scot-free as you think.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

Problem is, it really does ultimately come down to we, the voters, to decide in what direction we want the country to move. The president has to take the voters into consideration when he decides if he's going to use excessive force, or a more subtle approach. Like it or not, that's the way it works here.

And I think a lot of us like it that way. Vietnam was a war that was waged without much knowlege or understanding from the citizens about what was going on, or what was at stake. A lot of us don't want a repeat of that.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:21 PM

My last is in reference to The Shamles' post.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:38 PM

Put into the equation that the era that Cranky Yank is evoking was also the era when we left our medical care to our doctors. We, as a society, simply did not question a doctor's dictum as to whether we needed surgery, when it should be planned, what kind of treatment was called for. That era is gone.

And these days we have less faith and trust in our elected officials. In WW II, we were content to follow the lead of our government; we knew they knew what they were doing. After all, they were the experts.

Of course, we went about our business. We were being un-American if we didn't. Plenty of people who used their ability to think, to question, to rally others, were hassled by their families, their neighbors, their government...

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

Great job Jim Dixon!

Kids........Some are affected more than others and my son Michael doesn't really get it. Down the road he will and much to my fear, he will get it all too well. For now he has seen some of it and processed it a bit, but he's more interested in drawing and Soccer and getting a 100 on his spelling tests......So that is what Dad and Mom emphasize too. The Soccer fields were filled with kids and parents today and it looked pretty usual. Snippets of conversation from parents all focused on this attack, but the cheering and applause and the after game snacks were far more important and that part WAS business as usual.

At every level and age, something different is required and even within groups, it's different strokes for different folks. Nickelodeon and the Cartoon channels are still working and this morning I woke up to "Bear in the Big Blue House"......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

Jim: I'll drink to that! Good message.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

There are those who feel the need to strike back with vengeance, even if there is no clear target. Are we to attack an entire country, culture, religion in "our" attempt to root out terrorism? The man with the fortune (which we should be able to pull the plug on) who likely funded this terrorism is not necessarily the one or ones who planned and ordered implementation. To reach the top levels of the cells that are involved presupposes intelligence capacity that we do not currently have; "we" can probably identify some of the regional agents and bring them to account.

"Justice" as opposed to "vengance" is more difficult to achieve, but at least it's a worthy goal and the process of trying to achieve it may win us more support around the world and isolate further those we are searching for.

Even knowing the history of WW II - as a child I was only aware of it going on some vague elsewhere - I still cannot justify "our" deliberate atomic bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I still believe a demonstration blast on a remote Pacific island would have ended the war.

This is really not a response to CY in particular but more drifting floe.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Dear Yank the Krank

PLEASE be careful!!! About posting REAL infromation about yourself. The web is full of "creepy people" that like to lurk in "friendly places." It has been so from the earliest of internet days. When an ID is "necessary" to access a "secure registration" site...always use one you have borrowed/liberated from someone such as yourself...and use only free mail accounts.

You and your wife Donna can be reached at 847-12## and live in a lovely apartment #2D at 36 Ch------Street, only two blocks from the Long Warf Mall, kittycorner across the street from a lovely French restaurant, that is a little too pricely for your retirement income and too "lacy-frilly" for your taste. IF (doubtful) your family does own any real-estate, it is in your wife's name and in Florida. Your credit cards are Visa and MC. You like to play sea-chantys and have performed publicly.

Your daughter Joyce KatzbXXX. ph # 427-14XX was once married, is coming on 50 years old. As a rebellious teenager she caused you anxiety and greif. She has multiple arrest records for civil disobience, the most recent in 1999 at the R.I. nuclear submarin launch. Today, you are VERY proud of her ackoplishments with Stone Soup.

There is much, much more SS#, work history, parent's names and date location of death.etc. but:

I owe, I owe, so off to work I go.

Please be careful, the cyber world has its forms of terrorism. For a 73 y.o. congrats on "embrasing a modern technology."
Sincerely, Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Jimmy C
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

There are many threads already about this cowardly attack on New York etc, I have not read them all, I am saddened and depressed enough already, however I did come across this article written by an Afghani and it should be read, just for another point of view. If this is on one of the many threads I apologise. I took this article from another thread....Whatever the USA chooses to do, many throughout the world will support them.

Sorry this is so long guys, I thought it was an interesting piece to read. Tamim, a writer and columnist in San Francisco, who comes from Afghanistan. This is very interesting and a little chilling....

* * * *

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of International thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM

And how is revealing one's name in Mudcat any different from, say, having your name listed in the phone directory?

I've been posting under my real name for a long time, and have also posted personal information that people could use to trace me if they cared to. But why would they want to? So they could buy my wife's CD? Great! Let them come!


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 03:46 PM

For pete's sake, garg, the same is true for all of us. Including you. Including me. What's your point? I, for one, will resist the impulse to live in fear.

Elva Bontrager


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 05:27 PM

Garg: After I read your post to Cranky Yank my jaw dropped to the floor! I had no idea how much information could be gathered about someone, evidently, from the Internet.

Geeze. That's scary.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM

Gargoyle, I think you are full of shit. Anybody who has a phone can be traced easily, also their address (I have done this for several Mudcatters, just out of curiosity, and I am no cyber-sleuth).

The rest of Jody's personal information has been posted on Mudcat by himself over the months. I don't believe for one minute you know his SS#

Why not have a crack at tracing my SS# ? You have my full consent to post it on Mudcat.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:11 PM

Greg....er, uh...Gargoyle is judt off on another of his little twit attacks. Skip it..........Send him a spellchecker instead as he has problems from dyslexia and often gloms up his posts.......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Helen
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:30 PM

'Spaw, please don't start being divisive by using the label "dyslexia". I stand on the same side as Gargoyle, then, because I am dyslexic too.

Being divisive, categorising people into "us" & "them" is the worst thing to do in cases of conflicting viewpoints. I don't see Greg's point in bringing up all that stuff about how easy it is to find personal info on the Internet - in this discussion. So I disagree with that action, especially in posting more personal information to prove a point. But I am not prepared to resort to name-calling, especially name-calling based solely on a learning "disability" i.e a *difference* of brain capability.

Let's get back to the real point of this thread, huh?

Helen


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

The question is will he catch my mistake with the word just or will he think I meant twat for twit. Go ahead Greg boy.....Give us your thoughts......We ahve a second or two......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:38 PM

Helen, you are right....I was about to continue on, but you are right. My point was that all the info the idiot pulled is easily attainable and most of CY's was posted here on the 'Cat as was Greg's info on dyslexia. BTW, I have that thread on a permanent trace and have run copies of it to give to a couple of teachers who said they learned more from it than they had ever learned before on the problem. No, I wasn't making fun of anyone's disability...you know me better than that....But I will always continue to "name call" at the same level as Greg does when responding to him.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:28 AM

Score: Garg = 3
Score: Spaw = 2

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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:35 AM

Despite the question of the medaia, does anyone consider this, really to have been a terrorist victory?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 04:10 AM

It's not actually over yet. So, no, so far it would probably be safe to say that there hasn't been a victor.

This is how I'm looking at it. It helps me if I look at difficult situations like this one in this way...

Rudyard Kipling, in the Just So Story 'Old Man Kangaroo', writes about how Old Man Kangaroo is tired of looking like an ordinary, nondescript, sort of rat-like animal. He tells a succession of gods that he wants to be "different from all other animals and very truly sought after, by five o'clock".

The first two gods tell him to go away. The third god sets Yellow Dog Dingo after him. Yellow Dog Dingo chases Old Man Kangaroo all over the world. As Old Man Kangaroo runs and runs, his legs get longer and stronger and his feet get bigger, and he starts jumping higher and higher and his tail grows longer to help him balance when he jumps. And in this way, Kangaroo becomes able to jump over rivers and other obstacles in order to get away from Dingo.

Eventually, most of the day has passed and Kangaroo is completely unrecognizable from the animal he was when he made the request of the god. And poor Dingo is pretty tired and hungry, but he hasn't caught Kangaroo.

Kangaroo and Dingo both complain to the god about what has happened. Kangaroo complains about all of the changes that have happened to him and asks the god why he set Dingo on him in the first place.

The god says, "Well you said you wanted to be different from all other animals, and very truly sought after, and it is five o'clock.

Looks like we've got Yellow Dog Dingo after us right now, and if we want to, maybe we can let this experience make us better than we were before.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:14 AM

Thanks Carol, I hope you will be proved correct.

You could of course view the terrorist as the Kangaroo wishing to be noticed and sought after?

The dingo now as those who will never rest until every hiding place is denied to the Kangaroo, who cannot run forever?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:18 AM

Which ever you choose, it is too early to say if either aninal has changed much yet.

However, the world in which they both live certainly has.....


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Banjer
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:41 AM

It doesn't matter what they (the networks and the radio media) do, some one somewhere will find fault with it. Already I have heard folks saying that teh media should be ashamed of themselves for capitalizing on this tragedy the way tehy have been doing and I have also heard foks speaking ill of the stations (both TV and radio) for playing regular programming and music 'because they don't care enough about the tragedy to properly cover it. As usual it's one of those 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' situations.

And the idea that someone could make up their mind about what they feel needs to be done long before we have any information even about what really happened, and by whom, is a pretty scary thought to me. That's the kind of thinking that gets us into trouble time and time again. (from CarolC's post)

I myself made up my mind the first day as to what I think should be done, not to any specific party or group because we of course had no way of knowing at that time who was responsible. My thoughts were that we should use military action against whomever was found to be responsible for the terrorist act no matter who they were!!


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:53 AM

What if military action was determined to be the least effective way to solve the problem? (I'm not saying that is the case, but what if it was?) Would you advocate military action even then?

Re: the media capitalizing on the tragedy... as far as television networks are concerned, they actually were losing hundreds of millions of dollars a day during the four days that they provided non-stop coverage with no commercial breaks.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: HelenJ
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:59 AM

A character In the book "All Quiet On The Western Front" suggests that all leaders of opposing countries be put in a roped-off field; spectators invited to come and watch whilst they (the leaders/politicians) do the business of fighting among themselves. I take it that not many of our politicians have read the book.

HelenJ.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM

What if it were determined that going after the Swiss banks where anyone, even terrorists, can hide money, was the best way to solve the problem? Would you still advocate a military action?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:04 AM

My last was for Banjer.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:14 AM

I think the answer to these questions, will determine if any of the animals have changed or adapted to a changed envirionment.

The evolutionary lessons for animals that cannot adapt, is extinction.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:52 AM

Interesting post Cranky Yankee. I've been listening to and talking with teachers and parents about how the news of Tuesday was handled in local schools. Schools in this area did not attempt to tell the children what had happened. Teachers were asked not to have the radio on during school on Tuesday. I appreciated that, it meant that children were told by their parents what was going on so we could mediate the information as necessary for them. Then on Wednesday they could talk about it for awhile and then they got on with regular work. One teacher from a blink-and-you-miss-it sized town said that she had a very cheerful child who said he wasn't worried about an attack, nobody could find them on a map. Kids have their own unique way of seeing the world.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Banjer
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:27 PM

Carol, whatever our government deems appropriate, I will stand behind. If going after the Swiss banks is the answer then fine, do it. If military action is appropriate, then lets go for it. If those Swiss banks are as safe and foolproof as I have heard they are, then maybe a combination of both diplomatic and military action could be indicated. Hell, if I had all the answers I sure wouldn't be working at the job I do now!


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CapriUni
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:32 PM

What's been bothering *me* about the coverage is not what the *terrorists* make of it, but what *I* make of it, in my own mind.

I have, in varying degrees, (and in no particular order) felt:

Scared stiff by the details (I happen to live near the home port for NATO naval forces, which could very well be a target if we get a second round of strikes ... but as the days pass, this is waning)

Fascinated in an intellectual way, in terms of the political implications and "Where do we go from here?"

Worry over the idea that we will slip into a fulll-blown war, without a clear-cut beginning, and my friends in the military will disappear from my life without my having had a chance to say goodbye.

Fascinated in a morbid curiousity way

Bored by the repition

Guilt, because I'm bored

Guilt, because I'm not overcome with grief,

Guilt, because I feel a dull depressing sadness when the sun is shining, and the birds are singing, and I've closed myself off to it with worry, fear, and a morbid fascination with death.

Guilt because I take joy in the sunshine when so many others are overcome with grief...

:::Sigh::: In short, it's complicated.

Mostly, though, I feel my mind numbing in the face of all the bad news, and I *never* wanted to numb myself toward my fellow humans.

I haven't *really* laughed since tuesday -- not the deep laughs I'm used to. And I need to laugh.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:38 PM

CapriUni,

That is just how I have felt myself...

Thankyou for posting that, & expressing yourself so well


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:48 AM

It is complicated......But do we not owe it to those that died to at least carry on thinking until out brains hurt, to try and find a way to ensure that it will never occur again, anywhere?

Is not this urge for some kind of huge military reaction, just to stop us from thinking about it? To just take the responsibiltiy away?

As if that or any form of action will free us from the pain of trying to deal with all the implications of it ourselves?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:59 PM

I'm not convinced there will be a "huge military reaction," Shambles. I do think there will be some kind of military reaction, however. Not to do so would be sheer lunacy in my opinion. What better way would there be to encourage the terriorists to strike again than for us not to respond the only way they seem to understand?

DougR


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

Airline stocks are down today, the first day the New York Stock Exchange has been open since the tragedy. No big surprise.

Stocks are up in those companies engaged in weapons manufacturing. No big surprise there, either.

Thirteen thousand Air Force reservists have been called up; ten thousand Army reservists; two-three thousand Marines, Navy, and Coast Guard reservists each...the numbers perhaps give an indication of the strategy the Bush administration is planning to pursue.

Prior to the events of Tuesday, President Bush's defense spending proposals could've predicted the type of response he would rush to advocate.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM

Is not this urge for some kind of huge military reaction, just to stop us from thinking about it? To just take the responsibilty away?

Whether you think there will be such a thing or not, are you saying that there is not such an "urge"?

If so, I hope you are correct.

The guilty people who took over the planes are beyond understanding. They were probably beyond understanding, when they were still alive.

Understanding why this was so, is what I suggest we should all be addressing. For there are plenty more where these came from. We can't risk making even more.

Dealing with those behind the planning and funding, will have to be done over time, ruthlessly but with great care, but not necessarily with grand gestures and millitary action.

If they are needed, and they seem to be, the heroes are the dead and the rescuers.

This country needs her sons, not heroes.
Katrina Gall, from a song about another conflict.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: Troll
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM

GUEST;

The cuts in military sending during the eight years of the Clinton administration damaged the readiness of the military severly. We had squadrons of fighters that could not field a full complement of planes because there were no spare parts available to make needed repairs. They had to cannibalize one or two to keep the others in the air.
There was not enough fuel to deploy the fleet on routine manuevers and the spare parts problem was the same as with the Air Force.
And so with the Army and Marines.
And you feel that Bush's proposed approprations are out of line?
As it now stands, those requests will only get us back up to peacetime speed; where we should have been all along.

troll


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM

CY - I think the innundation of the media coverage is a mixed blessing. Personally, I'm concerned about what my 5 grand kids see on television - their parents aren't in the room ALL the time with them. How do you help the kids assimilate what has happened? We had out grandson over yesterday for a visit - just him and granny and grandpa. Wonderful time - chicken on the grill and a nice visit. He spoke a bit about "what happened in New York." He had bits and pieces, but not the whole picture - made me only want to have a "chat" with his parents, instead of tear into them. (I'm not as physically large as Mick, but....)

As far as the organizers of this claiming a victory from the coverage. I think it was short lived. The point of terrorism is to terrorize - to frighten into submission. The one thing that was shown over and over though, even on Tuesday, the cameras showed people running for their lives as the towers came down. They then showed those unhurt checking on people around them, and charging back INTO the wreckage to help others who did not get clear. Not just professional rescue crews either - office workers, shop keepers and people who just happened to be there.

I think it was an editorial in the Daily Mail that pointed out the raw courage it takes to do that. People need help and you're there and can help. This does not make New Yorkers or Americans in general better than other people. It simply means that like most people, Americans are not quite as soft or cowardly as some pundits would have others believe.

A terrorist victory? Nah, more like scoring a try in a game that is far from over.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:24 PM

Guest's post of 17-Sep-01 1:20pm makes no comment on the appropriateness of Bush's defense budget. It merely makes an observation regarding how one might've been able to foretell in advance the response President Bush was likely to pursue vis-a-vis an event such as the one that occurred 11-Sep-01.

The reader is left to decide for him/herself whether it is a valid observation. Actions the United States has yet to take will ultimately determine the shape and color of that response. Admittedly, it's a non sequitur to assume that a pro-defense stance automatically dictates a military counter-strike when one's country has been attacked.

Regardless, if the information troll supplied in his/her post of 17-Sep-01 1:55pm is correct, it would seem unlikely that, in the few months he's been in office, President Bush has had sufficient time to equip the nation's defenses to launch and sustain the kind of effort he's advocating to wipe out terrorism.

Perhaps the U.S. isn't ready for military action?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:42 PM

I've been hoping this wasn't a victory for the US military-industrial complex. But I'm beginning to wonder. It's starting to look like maybe they're going to be the ones who benefit the most in the long run.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:49 AM

Geeze! Reading into this tragedy the fact that somebody is going to benefit is a bit far out, isn't it? I suppose the next thing we will hear is "only the rich will come out well" over this tragedy. Never mind that many corporations so many of you hate so much are on the verge of going out of business because of this terriorist attack. You might want to keep in mind that corporations are composed of employees. Those employees are also on the verge of losing their jobs. The corporations in danger include the nation's airlines. What would we do without our airlines? We would be in a mell of a hess.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:16 AM

Believe it or not, DougR, I'm advocating a balanced approach. We need to be concerned about our economic base. But we need to be equally concerned about our citizens. If Bush creates a bigger mess than is needed just so that some people can profit at the expense of others, he will not be helping anyone in the long run.

If he approaches this situation with caution and wisedom, and uses only as much force as it needed to correct the situation, there may be hope. It's a fine line to tread. But I think we need to be very careful about our motives for everything we do in the context of this situation.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:10 AM

Some questions from one who has not seen much of the US media coverage, to those that have?

Have you read in the US media of the support and sympathy coming from the Europe and the rest of the world (in particular the UK)?

Have you read why that may be?

Have you read anywhere that it is simply because these terrible events and losses, were in the USA?

Or read anywhere that the outrage from the UK is because the UK casualties were the the highest number killed by a single terrorist attack?

For it matters not to me (and I suspect most of us), the number or nationality of the casulalties or where these obscene events took place. Only that four passenger aircraft were hi-jacked and flown deliberatly into the middle of two crowded cities............

Have you read that the hearts of millions of NON American people's hearts were broken along with yours at that moment?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: PeteBoom
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM

Actually, Shambles, the American coverage has been quite good on the international response. From the UK and nearly all the Commonwealth countries, through Europe, Asia and Africa, coverage has been included of nearly every nation that can be thought of. What has impressed me and many I know here in the States has been the expressions of support, not from governments, but from average citizens - firefighters in Germany, school children in Japan, office clerks in Taiwan. People with NO connection to the States - just other human beings grieving that such a thing could happen.


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:11 PM

Yes, Shambles, coverage has been good. Ove sixty nations of the world lost citizens in this disaster. No one's loss is more important than another.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:18 AM

Is there a thought that any change, is a victory for the terrorists?

The change I mean is that the subject is the 'only game in town' and people are now talking and asking hard questions about the outside world, as never before?

Is the current push to get people back to working normally, part of this?


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: DougR
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM

I think some people perceive it as such, Shambles.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Media Blitz, Terrorist victory
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 04:06 PM

Cranky Yankee, wotta guy!


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