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AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still

Related threads:
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catspaw49 16 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM
catspaw49 16 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM
GUEST 16 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM
Gareth 16 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM
katlaughing 16 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM
DougR 16 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM
Charley Noble 16 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM
katlaughing 16 Sep 01 - 07:38 PM
Charley Noble 16 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM
Ebbie 16 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM
katlaughing 16 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM
Amos 16 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM
Troll 16 Sep 01 - 09:36 PM
Bill Galbraith 16 Sep 01 - 09:50 PM
Charley Noble 16 Sep 01 - 10:07 PM
Troll 16 Sep 01 - 10:21 PM
khandu 16 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM
CarolC 17 Sep 01 - 12:12 AM
DougR 17 Sep 01 - 12:48 AM
Peter Kasin 17 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM
DougR 17 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM
The Shambles 17 Sep 01 - 02:27 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Sep 01 - 04:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Sep 01 - 05:54 AM
Wolfgang 17 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Sep 01 - 06:39 AM
Amos 17 Sep 01 - 08:28 AM
Fiolar 17 Sep 01 - 08:38 AM
Clifton53 17 Sep 01 - 08:49 AM
bill\sables 17 Sep 01 - 08:55 AM
kendall 17 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM
katlaughing 17 Sep 01 - 09:50 AM
GUEST,poffice 17 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM
Troll 17 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM
GUEST 17 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM
Bagpuss 17 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM
Amos 17 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM
M.Ted 17 Sep 01 - 11:53 AM
mousethief 17 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM
Amos 17 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM
Don Firth 17 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM
The Shambles 17 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Les B 17 Sep 01 - 01:27 PM
Don Firth 17 Sep 01 - 01:33 PM
Amos 17 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Les B 17 Sep 01 - 02:47 PM
Gareth 17 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM
Peter T. 17 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM
DougR 17 Sep 01 - 05:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,emily b 17 Sep 01 - 05:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM
Mrrzy 17 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM
Charley Noble 17 Sep 01 - 09:47 PM
Mrrzy 17 Sep 01 - 11:07 PM
CarolC 17 Sep 01 - 11:17 PM
Mrrzy 17 Sep 01 - 11:20 PM
GUEST, I, hurricane 18 Sep 01 - 12:31 AM
Clifton53 18 Sep 01 - 12:38 AM
gus C 18 Sep 01 - 01:01 AM
Lonesome EJ 18 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM
CarolC 18 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 01:35 AM
CarolC 18 Sep 01 - 01:52 AM
gus C 18 Sep 01 - 02:32 AM
The Shambles 18 Sep 01 - 02:33 AM
gus C 18 Sep 01 - 02:39 AM
The Shambles 18 Sep 01 - 02:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Sep 01 - 06:01 AM
CarolC 18 Sep 01 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,justice? 18 Sep 01 - 07:29 AM
CarolC 18 Sep 01 - 08:16 AM
sophocleese 18 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM
CarolC 18 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM
Fiolar 18 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM
Kim C 18 Sep 01 - 10:00 AM
Troll 18 Sep 01 - 10:10 AM
Big Mick 18 Sep 01 - 10:12 AM
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Clifton53 18 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM
DougR 18 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM
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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

I think it's become evident that some of the best and clearest thinking is now being done with the benefit of time that has passed and more thoughts keep comong along, more talking with better reasoning....I hope that DC mirrors what I see happening here!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM

OOOPS!!!

Forgot the BLUE CLICKY MOHUNKER BACK TO THREAD SEVEN

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 05:05 PM

Thinking about you all in the USA.

Dunc in Scotland


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

One of the things I like doing sometimes is watching Star Trek - and comparing what I think about it with the reviews on an excellent site run by a man called Jamahl Epsicokhan. Anyway looking in on it today I was interested to read his thoughts On A Tragic Tuesday Morning and maybe other people might as well.

I was picking up my father-in-law to bring him over to us for Sunday lunch. He talked all the way about this, speculating about what might happen, and trying to make sense of it. Had a far better ability to think about the implications of it all than nine tenths of the people you see on TV pontificating. He's 90 in a couple of weeks.

There are a lot of people out in the world using their heads and talking sense. I just hope that the people making the decisions are as well. From TV coverage it doesn't look too hopeful with some of them, but maybe they aren't the ones that will determine how it works out.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM

Just a comment to thank Amos for his thoughtful comment in the previous thread - with that xample of sanity from the US of A there is hope.

And now a modest proposal from history.

Students of History will recall that the relations between the Saxons and the Cymri (Welsh) were not based on any love. The best translation of the Welsh for England is the "Lost Lands".

King John (John Lackland) had a very effective means of controlling stroppy Welsh Princes and Kinglets.

He would put a price, in gold, on thier head - litterally.

And within a few months, a bloody and stinking sack containing the head would arrive at London, or Winchester or werever the Court would be. Accompanied by whichever kinsmen had plotted the deed.

If a sufficient reward (in USA script)was placed on the head(s) of those who were reasonably suspected of planning or facilitating this abomination I suspect that it would be paid eventually.

Perhaps not as satisfying as the need for demonstratable vengence - but effective - and politically less inflamatory.

Terrorist X needs to be lucky all the time - we only need to get lucky once.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM

I am read-out. Can't read another commentary on it, nor listen to another pundit. I am grateful you, Spaw, and you others for keeping up on it. I listen to the top of the news, or check AP breaking news, but otherwise, I am on overload. It is good to hear that cooler heads may prevail. I give thanks that it will be so.

kat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:22 PM

Amos, I think your idea has merit, but I'm not sure the Muslims wouldn't think it presumptious of a christian to declare that he is going to save Islam.

McGrath: As I have pointed out in numerous threads, the latest ABC polls give President Bush a 90% approval rating. So that puts you, and others who share your view in the 10 percentile group, I suppose. Far from a majority I'd say.

I really don't know what such speculation is designed to accomplish anyway. Colin Powell is Secretary of State. Even were some calamity befall President Bush, he wouldn't succeed the President. Next comes the Vice President (who you don't like either), then Dennis Hastert (who you may not even know), and on down the line.

As I recall, you're not much of a fan of your Tony Blair either. I think he made a very powerful speech at Parliment a few days ago, and I am delighted that the leaders of Great Britain support the President.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

Well they tried Gareth's suggestion with Salman Rushdie didn't they, and so far noone has collected.

And of course two could play at that game, with prices set on the head of our political leaders. Mind you, I wouldn't see that as too important, but they might I suppose.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

I'm glad I didn't blast everyone away with my atheistic sermon. Maybe more Cointreau is the solution. I just spent a peaceful afternoon saying farewell to an old friend and mentor, Bill Bonyun, in very good company. I do think we are after a deadly cult that deserves no mercy, and would not understand it if mercy was offered. I hope our pathetic president gets that message.

What I also find even more haunting and disturbing is I think more of us can really understand how ordinary people in Japan must have felt when hundreds of thouands of their people were killed in two massive atomic blasts. Were there citizens here who actually cheered and danced in the streets? That's a very dark valley to walk through and I think I'll sign off.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:38 PM

I am compiling a list of all relevant threads, as suggested in one of these. I'll post them in a new thread.

kat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM

Kat - please get some sleep if you can.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

DougR, just for the record, NPR (National Public Radio) this morning quoted the poll as giving the President an 80% approval rating.

But keep in mind: The people responding to the polls are American, not people in other countries. Non-American people, including those in the UK, may easily respond differently.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM

Charley, thanks so much. I actually took a long and very deep sleep nap this afternoon with warm, comforting cats draped across me, snuggling at my feet, etc. I was exhausted, but feel much better now. I appreciate your concern.

kat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM

DougR, et al

My notion is not to say we are going to "save Islam" but merely that weare going to eradicate a cruel and violent cult which among other things has perverted the repute of Islam by twisting its teaching to the side of evil; thus, we will restore freedom of religion to those who wish to follow their hearts and the teaching of islam just as much as we protect it for those who wish to follow the teachings of Gandhi, Buddha, Deepodio Lancaster Gotwallop, or L. Ron Hubbard as long as in so doing they do not break the laws of common humanity.

There are quotes to be found in the Koran which amount to refusing to commit violence even in resposnse to violence. I think a talented script writer could handle this in such a way as to make a major PR coup out of it.

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:36 PM

The people of America did not dance in the streets when the Bomb was dropped on Japan.
They DID, however, dance in the streets when Japan surrendered.
We were in a declared war with Japan and their government was warned that we had a devastating new weapon and that they had best call for a cessation of hostilities and a truce. They ignored the warning and President Truman gave the go-ahead.
I see little correlation between the two events and the emotions that followed.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Bill Galbraith
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 09:50 PM

Emily B here actually,

Thanks to each and every one of you who has participated in this thread. I've found it all so comforting, as though a large group of friends and family was together and trying to sort out this madness. I appreciate the early postings keeping those of us who were away from a tv informed. This thread has been a chance for folks to grieve, rage, comfort, and debate. I've found it quite healing. As though I were participating myself. I haven't because I didn't have the words.

I discovered Wednesday morning that I knew someone on Flight 11 that hit the WTC. What was just so unbelievable suddenly became a very dark reality.

It is good to know in these times that so much of the rest of the world is feeling our pain and is sending such healing thoughts as many of our international posters have done. Thanks to all who included links to other pertinent threads or articles. I found the letter (via link in thread 7 I think) from the Afghan native to be most revealing and informative. A good perspective that hadn't been seen yet.

The mudcat family is strong and loving, just as all families should be. That we can share a thread on a topic of this magnitude says so much about this community. Thanks again to all. My thoughts and sympathies go out to all who are grieving.

Emily Blunck


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:07 PM

Trull - "The people of America did not dance in the streets when the Bomb was dropped on Japan."

I would like to believe you are right, but I doubt it...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 10:21 PM

Check it out. I'm not 100% positive myself but I've never seen any reference to it.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: khandu
Date: 16 Sep 01 - 11:47 PM

The "vision" of America is vastly greater than the realities of America. (How arrogant we must seem to others when we refer to the USA as "America".) We have done some dreadful deeds, we have made a kajillion mistakes, we fight among ourselves, many (if not most) of our representatives are corrupt. We are like spoiled rich kids.

But...the "vision" of America stirs us. Stirs us to stand up. Stirs us to defend her when she is attacked.

We, as a nation, have a long way to go before the realities rise to the standard of the ideals. But, by God, we have that vision instilled in us that America is the best place on earth, and we love her, maybe more for what we believe she can be than for what she is.

With all her flaws, she is the land that I love. She is my home. As much as I try to live in peace, as much as lies within me, with my fellow humans, I will defend my home!

Ken


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:12 AM

Maybe it's time for us to include all of humanity in our hopes for the good that can be. Maybe it's time for those of us in the US to broaden our "vision".


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:48 AM

Amos: well then, good luck.

Charlie Noble: I was was alive and kicking, and I can assure you that there was no dancing in the streets at the dropping of the bomb. As Troll says, however, there was dancing in the streets when Japan surrendered.

Geeze, Ken, where in the heck are you coming from? You been around this week? The vision of America shoudl be to destroy terriorism! You disagree?

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM

Whatever form our government's response to the terrorist attacks takes, and if Bin Laden's culpability is confirmed, I hope our policy recognizes that the Afghani populace in general are victims of the Taliban's despotic rule.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM

chanteyranger: so were the people in Germany under Hitler. Should we have bombed them or no?

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:27 AM

Probably not. The scars from the bombing of German cities and the bombs on Japan have not healed and we still suffer today from those decisions.

They may have been thought necessary too, at the time.

They may both have shortened the conflict, but we must lern ALL the lessons of our past actions, if we are not to keep making the same mistakes.

It is a complicated world and uncomplicated solutions, will only further complicate the worrld.

There is only one world and we all have to learn how to live in it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:01 AM

The US respect for due process and the rule of law for its citizens is a wonderful thing. How much more wonderful when that same respect is shown to citizens of other countries?

I read on a CNN web poll that 80% favoured bombing Kabul if Ben Laden is not turned over by the Taliban. I hope that bombing never takes place. I do not think that the pursuit of justice should include the destruction of innocent civilians. I do not want to face another generation of suicide bombers.

What the USA has done in the past is not the important issue in this fight. It is what she does from now forward.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:54 AM

"The people of America did not dance in the streets when the Bomb was dropped on Japan" - and "the people of Palestine" did not dance in the streets after Tuesdday's events either. Some people did.

I'd be very surprised, given human nature, if there were not some people who celebrated at the news of Hiroshima, even in advance of the Japanese surrender. Remember they didn't have camera crews roving the streets looking for this kind of thing.

People who have been hurt are likely to feel vengeful. When people have lost their loved ones, and had their lives destroyed, noone can blame them if sometimes their anger expressed itself in jubilation when a mortal blow was inflicted on the people they saw as their enemies, while their imaginations failed to appreciate the appalling nature of what had been done.

And that last paragraph could have been about people in August 1945 in Europe or America, or about people in Palestine this week.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:02 AM

We wonder more than a bit over here what the scope of the USA actions will be? One politician said something about 'ending states'. How many of them? For a first guess we can look back at the yearly terrorism report of the USA state department back in April 2001 about which states it considers to harbour terrorists. The report lists seven 'villain countries':

Iran, Irak, Libya, Cuba, Syria, North Korea and Sudan

Are you missing Afghanistan? Yes, but only because it was and is not a recognised state. It gets a dishonourable mention. Listed too are two states that do not actively harbour terrorists but do not take adequate action against them:
Yemen and Palestine

Among this list are extremely unlikely candidates like e.g. North Korea, for several reasons, but it is always good to know what the upper limit is. This list is scaring.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:39 AM

And I would bet everything I've got that the people who planned and organised this are probably not in any of those countries.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:28 AM

Why we would bomb Kabul? To prevent the manufacture of terrorists? Don't we have to declare ware ON someplace before we start bombing them?

A


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:38 AM

I watched the Irish news on Sunday evening and one of their reporters was in one of the refugee camps. The conditions were heartbreaking. No blankets, little food and one poor devil had recently seen his twin daughters of two months die. The plight of the children was piteous. Perhaps this is the wrong thread to post this, but when revenge is taken, it is as well to remember that not all the Afghan people support the lunatics who call themselves supporters of Bin Laden and the Taliban.
The following words are by Christina Rosetti and may give comfort to those who have lost loved ones. Apologies if they have alread been posted but I haven't checked every thread.

REMEMBER

Remember me when I am gone away,
Gone far away into the silent land;
When you can no more hold me by the hand,
Nor I half turn to go yet turning stay.
Remember me when no more day by day
You tell me of our future that you planned:
Only remember me; you understand
It will be late to counsel then or pray.
Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad.

God Bless.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Clifton53
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:49 AM

The U.S.A. has citizens within it's borders from every nation on earth including people from nations we see as enemies. Would anyone dispute that? They are free here to make a better life and to watch their children grow strong. They are allowed to open a store or a factory, allowed to worship at their faith in buildings of their own making. In short, they are tolerated.

Where is tolerance in the middle east? These radical fundamentalists cannot even abide one small country in their midst that sees a different god than they do. One small country!! If we acted like that, and I don't wish to get into all the Zionist arguments, pro or con, we would be pilloried world-wide and taken to task for our intolerance.

These people are willing to destroy the Western world because they cannot tolerate one small country!!

I pray for peace

Clifton


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: bill\sables
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:55 AM

There is an old Scottish proverb which states;
"A young trooper needs an old horse"


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM

I cant help but wonder what there is to approve of, Doug. all I've seen so far is this geek spouting platitudes in his usual style. (Incomplete sentences)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:50 AM

Emily, I am very sorry for your loss, though it is good to hear we might have been helpful, in some way. Please feel free to PM me, if you need to talk etc.

In Sorrow and Sympathy,

kat


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,poffice
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM

I am an American, 62 years old. I grew up in a small midwestern town. I was young at the time of VJ Day but I remember for the first time in my young life a news boy came down our street shouting the news of victory (just like the movies). Everyone that was home came out to get a paper. The adults stood in the street reading, when they finished much huging and crying went on, no dancing or jubulation. Yes they were happy now we wouldn't have as many Gold Star mothers. (For those who don't know what a Gold Star mother was, she was a mother who had lost a son in THE WAR) She had a small banner in her window with a star for each son at war, Blue if son is alive Gold if gone.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM

Clifton, the problem is not the worship of God under a different name. The Koran specifically names Jews as "The People of the Book" and recognizes Abraham as the Father of the Arab people. They also recognize Jesus of Nazreth as a great prophet and teacher.
The problem is the control of Jerusalem, which is holy to both faiths. For Jews, it is the site of Solomons Temple wherein was kept the Ark of the Covenant.
For Muslims it is the third holiest spot in Isalm being the place where Mohammad ascended to heaven.
The fly in the ointment, so to speak, is that both spots are the same!
The site of the Temple was on so-called Temple Mount, the spot where the Dome of the Rock and the El Aqsa Mosque now stand as they have stood for over a thousand years.
Jewish tradition says that when the temple is restored, the Messiah will come, but to restore the Temple would mean the destruction of the Dome and the Mosque. All Islam would rise up if that were to happen.
So it isn't just about the taking of a small bit of real estate in 1948.
The conflict strikes at the roots of both Islam and Judiaism.
BTW, Happy New Year to all.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:21 AM

First I want to say it is interesting to see the development of ideas on this subject. Like most everyone I too hope cooler heads will prevail.

I am an American, 62 years old. I grew up in a small midwestern town. I was young at the time of VJ Day but I remember for the first time in my young life a news boy came down our street shouting the news of victory (just like the movies). Everyone that was home came out to get a paper. The adults stood in the street reading, when they finished much huging and crying went on, no dancing or jubulation. Yes they were happy now we wouldn't have as many Gold Star mothers. (For those who don't know what a Gold Star mother was, she was a mother who had lost a son in THE WAR) She had a small banner in her window with a star for each son at war, Blue if son is alive Gold if gone.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Bagpuss
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:28 AM

On Hiroshima and Nagasaki

read this

(http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM

Eliminating terrorism is not a goal which requires large scale nation-to-nation military deployment. It requires intelligence, individual and network locales identified, a deep understanding of the thinking processes of the enemy and how he gets support, a masterful ability to turn PR and public perception, and the deployment of small squads, more likely, than batallions of ground troops and armored vehicles.

In my humble opinion.

The problem with this is that intell and PR are NOT our strong suite.

I think we ought to contract Bill Gates to run the campaign.

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 11:53 AM

If you go to the mainpage for the Institute for Historical Review, which is the source for the page listed above, you will notice that they also refute the "Zionist Lie" of the Holocaust--


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

And yet they are "non-ideological" -- it says so on their web site so it must be true, eh?

Alex (tongue firmly planted in cheek)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM

Jeeeze!!! What is WITH these guys?

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM

I remember August 6, 1945 vividly. I was fourteen years old at the time. My Dad and I were in the car, parked and waiting for my mother and two sisters, and we were listening to the car radio when the news report came that the Japanese city of Hiroshima had been struck with a new kind of bomb. It was an "atomic" bomb, the newscaster said, and preliminary reports said that the entire city had been destroyed in a gigantic fireball.

The newscaster went on to say that one of the ingredients of an atomic bomb is a substance called uranium, which is radioactive, much like radium. One of the results (he said) was that the entire region might be radioactive, and that the site of the city could be uninhabitable for decades to come. He emphasized that the entire city had been destroyed with a single bomb, dropped from a single airplane.

My dad and I sat silently for several minutes as the report continued. We knew that from here on, things were going to be different.

It may have happened here and there, but there was no rejoicing or dancing in the streets that I ever saw. People were pretty somber.

There was rejoicing and dancing in the streets a week or so later when we learned that the war was finally over.

For some insight into what was going on in Japan at this time, click here.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:22 PM

It is interesting to note and to ponder the questions why, these weapons have not (to date), been used again. For it must be to our credit that we have not........

A sign of hope?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:27 PM

Being from Montana, which of late has become the home of assorted kooks (the Unabomber and the Freemen), and being next door to Idaho which has a good number of Aryian (SP?) Nation members, I'm wondering if the "War" against terrorism is going to start at home ?

It could get very interesting sorting out "freedom fighters" from terrorists.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:33 PM

Well, there you have it. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM

Don:

Many thanks for the enlightening link. Given the overall situation, it appears the choices were actually to invade or to bomb. While we could have limited ourselves to non-nuclear bombs, I think from this data it appears there was a good probability Japan would have resisted surrender in favor of a guerilla-based homeland defense at the time.

Understanding the politics of the moment from this perspective is actually helpful to me.

Thanks,

A.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,Les B
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:47 PM

I got cut off in the midst of posting my last thread. What I intended to say (before I had to go deal with a customer) was that the American Revolutionaries were probably seen as terrorists by the British King, and of course were seen as patriots by we Americans.

I can well imagine that some of the fringe groups in this country, who are terrorists to various minority groups, are going to hide behind the banner of "freedom fighter."

It's going to be a complicated sorting process, fraught with perils to various kinds of freedom.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

Again Kipling (an astute comentator) had something to say on this -
an extract from the Ballad of Bo Da Throne

Boh Da Thone was a warrior bold:
His sword and his Snider were bossed with gold,
And the Peacock Banner his henchmen bore
Was stiff with bullion, but stiffer with gore.
He shot at the strong and he slashed at the weak
From the Salween scrub to the Chindwin teak:
He crucified noble, he sacrificed mean,
He filled old ladies with kerosene:

Gareth

The collected works of Rudyard Kipling can be found - Here

While over the water the papers cried,
"The patriot fights for his countryside!"


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:56 PM

Haven't responded before, but have been reading along when time permitted.

My sense is that the shape of the bombing and its aftermath was reflected in the response of the human community, mirrored here on Mudcat through these threads ---- A short burst of time when there was physical shock, a momentary pause when it seemed that everything could be made sane or insane, and then a vast wave of the total and complete destruction of all meaning, speechless horror, and then a vast explosion of words trying to capture explanations that kept exploding beyond the capacity of language to hold them in, people rushing in with explanations, ways of dousing the collapse of the way things were, and then everywhere fragments, shards, rubbles of meaning, and then at last, finally, in the heart of the babble, exhausted silence, the pages and pages, littering the streets of the city, blizzards of yesterday's memos and memories. Rumours, whispers, and then the rise of mourning like smoke in the rain. And out of the wreckage of the old, some of the old worlds and old words revive, out of need: some of them reminted -- "hero", for instance, with new beauty -- and some of them brought back, but so useless as to be misleading -- "war", for instance, when what is needed is a new word, beyond what has been meant by war. So it is with all great experiences: they blast the old words away, and we grope back over the dust and debris once more into halting speech. I believe that we should not betray the events by the redeployment of the old words which inevitably redeploy the old forces: but we are a long way from the new words that would tell us what we are to do, now. But that is what artists are for, ultimately: people here and others.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:19 PM

Don Firth: you're recollection coincides with mine of the dropping of the Atom bombs. I was 15 at the time.

However, I guess no one can say with complete accuracy that NO ONE danced in the streets when the event was announced on radio. It's even concievable that someone in Great Britain, McGrath, danced in the streets. After all, the armed forces of GB were no more anxious to be a party to the invasion of Japan than were those in the U.S.A.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:39 PM

Yes indeed - as I've already indicated, I think it's extremely likely that some people in Great Britain and other parts of Europe may indeed have celebrated when they heard about the bomb, and I couldn't blame them. Insofar as this doesn't seem to have been a widespread reaction, that is very impressive indeed, given the circumstances.

And I still think what I said up the thread was true and relevant, and might help us understand why we saw those horrible scenes of a few people celebrating the destruction of the Twin Towers:

People who have been hurt are likely to feel vengeful. When people have lost their loved ones, and had their lives destroyed, noone can blame them if sometimes their anger expressed itself in jubilation when a mortal blow was inflicted on the people they saw as their enemies, while their imaginations failed to appreciate the appalling nature of what had been done.

And that last paragraph could have been about people in August 1945 in Europe or America, or about people in Palestine this week.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,emily b
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:56 PM

Peter T., what a beautiful posting. Your words never cease to amaze and move me. I've missed your Thought of the Day. I can't get over how eloquent so many mudcatters are. Emily


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:01 PM

Gareth - of course the thing that is implied by Kipling there is that the British did none of those things. Which sadly is not true.

Kiping wrote about some of that too:

Now remember when you're 'acking round a gilded Burma god
That 'is eyes is very often precious stones;
An' if you treat a nigger to a dose o' cleanin'-rod
'E's like to show you everything 'e owns.
When 'e won't prodooce no more, pour some water on the floor
Where you 'ear it answer 'ollow to the boot
(~Cornet~: Toot! toot!) --
When the ground begins to sink, shove your baynick down the chink,
An' you're sure to touch the --
(~Chorus~) Loo! loo! Lulu! Loot! loot! loot!
Ow the loot! . . .



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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:42 PM

I've decided that these lyrics best represent how I feel -

It's a lesson too late for the learnin'
Made of sand, made of sand
In the wink of an eye my soul is turning
In your hand, in your hand

Are you going away with no words of farewell?
Will there be not a trace left behind?
I could have loved you better
Didn't mean to be unkind
You know, that was the last thing on my mind

As I lie in my bed in the morning
Without you, without you
Each song in my breast dies a-bornin'
Without you, without you

Are you going away with no words of farewell?
Will there be not a trace left behind?
I could have loved you better
Didn't mean to be unkind
You know, that was the last thing on my mind...

Also, here is my response to those who want to bomb them back into the Stone Age, not that there are any here but I'm offering you fodder: They ARE in the Stone Age, and look at what they've done.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:47 PM

Nice when I'm too tired to think straight that there are others willing to continue posting.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 11:07 PM

Ooh, a new word, yes; what IS this kind of conflict called, a war against an idea rather than a nation? It really ISN'T a war, not against Afghanistan at least... Terr? Short for Terror but shows the Terran involvement?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 11:17 PM

I think it's a time to choose. Do we stand against the principle? If we do, are we prepared to hold ourselves to the same standard? If so, we need to work very hard to find another way. Otherwise we have chosen to keep terrorism alive and well in the world.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 11:20 PM

Worse than that, CarolC, we will have either surrendered to it, or joined it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:31 AM

>>>>>Insurers in Britain and America were yesterday forming a consensus that last Tuesday's attacks on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon constituted an act of terrorism – an eventuality which is much more widely insured for than an outbreak of war.

Chubb, one of America's largest insurers, and Swiss Re, the global reinsurer, became the first insurance companies to confirm that they did not view the disaster as an act of war. <<<<<<< http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=94621


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Clifton53
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:38 AM

Troll, thank you for the explanation. Anything that helps me understand the situation makes it easier for me to face the future, which right now is fraught with peril, for all concerned.

Clifton


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: gus C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:01 AM

Something to think about. They could have stolen a cargo plane and taken down the Statue of Liberty. Loss of innocent life would have been NIL, beyond the terrorist themselves. The message would have been loud and clear, but, then they wouldn't be TERRORISTS, would they?.
I said it before, Bin Ladden Must Die.
This time don't no psuedo-intellectual pious idiots say- attack who? BIN LADEN, the symbol of an act that is pure and undefendable EVIL. Don't ask how either , I aint Colin Powell. I pray he is handed over so the loss of innocent life is minimal and we can go about HUMANELY defeating his kind with political diplomatic strong arm techniques, and small Navy seal/green beray strikes.
the blood will not stop flowing without it draining from Bin Ladden's Body. It is that simple, if you care about innocent life , hope he dies and his death will come soon.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM

I understand your anger, DJH, but we must be careful not to convert it to a flame-thrower that burns the innocent as well as the guilty. Better we use it to generate white-hot flame to temper our will and our resolution. This war will not end even with Bin Laden's arrest or death. I think we are in the early days of a very long and painful process. Thorough planning, careful targetting, and a devastating strike must be the tools of our anger. And even further losses must not damage our resolve.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM

I don't understand why this should be handled any differently than the situation with Milosevic. He's not dead. He is being dealt with in a manner that is consistant with the rule of law.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:35 AM

Because, Carol, Milosevic is alleged to have committed a crime against humanity; racial clensing.

The Terriorists committed an act of war against the United States. Osma bin Laden declared war against the United States years ago, and blew up American Embassies and military personnel, killing hundreds of Americans and local employees at the Embassies. They must answer to the American People, not to the World Court.

I Don't understand why that's so hard to grasp other than the fact that it is not the way you wish it were.

The latest Washington Post poll indicates that 87% of the American People approve of Bush's handling of the situation. That's a pretty good approval rating.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:52 AM

The popularity of a particular approach is no indication of whether or not it will be effective.

The reason I see it differently than you do is that I see the kneejerk approach being advocated by some people as being more likely to cause greater problems for us in the long run. As opposed to an approach that is more concerned with giving us the best results in the long run, but may be less satisfying to those who are looking an outlet for their anger in the short term.

And just because it is me who sees it in this way, doesn't mean that this view lacks validity.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: gus C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:32 AM

I fear it will be hard to be effective.
I fear the angry flag waving Mob.
I fear that the goverment has it's hands tied by a 90% blood lust.
I fear that the one man , who's blood will be satisfying will elude capture.
I fear for the people of Afganistan.
I fear for the people of the world.
I want the gun's back on the shelves FAR more than I want revenge
Bin Laden Must Die.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:33 AM

The painful fact is the 87% is not 87% of the world opinion.

The days when American policy could affect the lives of the rest of the world, without the rest of the world touching or affecting the American people are now over.

This has been clearly demonstrated by a few fanatics with a view held by a lot less than 87% of anything.

If Mr Bush's 'dead or alive' statement is indication of his fairly recent awakening to the world outside, I fear that when the effects of this approach are again felt by the American people, this 87% will reduce rapidly.

To take Bill Sable's quote about the young trooper.

I hope by then that it is not too late. We can only trust that Mr Bush is riding a more experienced horse, who knows how long these trails can be and will keep him to the safer ones.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: gus C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:39 AM

I can't understand what fairy tale some folks are living in. WAKE UP. Smell the smoke.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:39 AM

I think what I was trying to say was that, it is the percentage of people who share the crazed view that results in these attacks, that really matters.

What ever this figure may be, it has to be kept the same or reduced if this is possible.

There is no hope if this figure is increased.......


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:01 AM

The idea that a single man, or even a small army, up in the mountains of Afghanistan, with no communication with the outside world other than courier could be in control of whatever organisation of people who carried out those attacks is fantasy.

It may be extremely likely that he might support or encourage what happened, or perhaps have sent word to his admirers that it should be done. It may well be that he is guilty of crimes against humanity, including that part of humanity that lives in the United States, and of the murder of those people on Tuesday.

Capturing him or killing him will not however be likely to do anything to reduce the ability and motivation of the people who organised the attacks of last week to carry on. It might make some people feel better, but it is essentially a side show.

Eliminating Bin Laden, or annihilating the Taliban regime is not likely to do anything significant to end the risk of further terrorist attacks. And the primary objective has to be to achieve that. (And it isn't helped by having George Bush describing it as a "crusade" - a word guaranteed to alienate the very people he needs to keep on side, and one which is deeply offensive to any Muslim, for very good reasons.)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:22 AM

This is not in response to any previous posts.

The Taliban has listed some conditions under which they would consider handing Bin Laden over. One of the conditions is that he would stand trial in a neutral country. If he is innocent, he shouldn't have anything to worry about. If he is found guilty, he can be brought to justice. That is what we are after, right? Justice?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,justice?
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:29 AM

CarolC,

Look around on the streets. You really think 'Justice' is the issue? People want Bin Ladin gone. The Taliban knows that an Islamic court may not do anything to him. They know that if they turn him over to us, he will die. Before anyone says, "That's not how it should be" of course that is not how things 'should be' but they are the way things are.

People that lead these courts, that they want Bin Ladin tried in, live in countries where there are fringe groups that would kill them for finding him guilty. So would there be justice done then?

What about the other attacks Bin Ladin has commited? Do we let those go? Can we put him on trial for those crimes? Will those courts allow it? These are all questions that would have to be answered. The Taliban want Bin Ladin around. He is a good tool for them. They will not hand over him any sooner than most Americans would hand over thier guns.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:16 AM

GUEST, justice, I don't have the answers to all of your questions. But they are questions that should be a part of the decision making process. I'm not saying that things will necessarily work out for justice to be done in in the way I mentioned in my last post. But I am saying that we need to be willing to look at it as one of the possibilities.

Every choice we have available to us is fraught with danger. My opinion is that we need to examine all of the possible choices very carefully, along with the potential consequences for each of them, both long term as well as short term (to the extent that we can identify them). To do anything less is, in my opinion, extreme folly.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:23 AM

Bin Ladin might get handed over to a court somewhere outside of the USA. Given the large number of non Americans killed in the WTC, and given the current rhetoric that this was not an attack against the US only but an attack against the whole western world. Working to have a trial in neutral territory might be the most workable compromise.

Two aspects of the discussion surrounding this interest me. 1) We get the usual assumption of sanity as being held only by those who would retaliate, but more people are questioning that assumption. 2) When the planes hit last week the reaction that I heard from many outside the US was a combination of heartfelt sympathy "Oh God! How awful!" and nervous advice "Now, don't do anything rash in return, please." I think this is an indication of how many outside the US see the US.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 08:35 AM

I need to correct something I put in my second to last post. I said 'neutral country'. I should have said an Islamic country, not the US. I didn't hear anything about the Taliban stipulating which Islamic country.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Fiolar
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM

Apologies for posting the following as I know that so many people have lost loved ones and my prayers and sympathies are but a drop in the ocean of their terrible grief. However I thought folks might be interested in the following notice from the Irish Examiner. It deals with the death of the little four year old and her mother whose photograph in the world's press and television brought home to many outside the US the full horror of the dreadful carnage on that terrible day.

"McCOURT (nee Clifford) (Cork and New London, Conn.): On September 11 2001,tragically, in New York, RUTH and her darling daughter JULIANA, dearly loved wife and daughter of David McCourt, beloved daughter and granddaughter of Paula and the late Val and dearest sister and niece of John, Ronnie, Mark,Spencer and the late Gordon. Very deeply regretted and sadly missed by David and Paula, stepmother Raymonde, brothers, sisters- in-law Mary and Brigid,uncles, aunts, adoring nephews, nieces, extended family, relatives and close friends. Memorial Mass on today (Tuesday) at 7.30pm in St. Michael's Church,Blackrock. No flowers please. Donations, in lieu, to COPE Foundation."
"Requiescat in pace."


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 10:00 AM

I may have said this elsewhere... I wish I could remember who said it first, but I don't...

The best way for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

So now is the time for all good people to stand up to this evil, and it seems as though a lot of them are willing, albeit cautiously, and rightfully so.

Several of the Muslim countries have expressed outrage about last Tuesday's events. These are people who have lived with random acts of terrorism for some time, and I believe that they, as much as anyone else, would like for it to stop. Anyone with any iota of decency does not want to see innocent people die at the hands of a madman.

I want to see something done but first I think we need to avoid war at every turn, until there are no turns left to make. If it becomes our last resort, so be it, but I think we need to give diplomacy a great big try first.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 10:10 AM

RE: The use of the word "crusade" and its affect of the Islamic world.
Does anyone have a ststement from an Islamic source condeming or even commenting on the use of the word?
If so, please cits the source. If not, then it is an unfounded opinion.
The same applies to the phrase, "dead or alive."

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 10:12 AM

I have been away for four days, playing in a festival. I returned to find that a number of you had sent me PM's asking for my views on all of this a week later. I read through these threads and don't know what I can offer. There is diversity, wisdom, lunacy, sadness........it is all here already. I am glad we played the festival this weekend. Gaelic Storm, Lawrence "Larry" Nugent, The Brothers, my own Conklin Céilí Band, Fonnmhor, Brian Mason and the Shelmaliers..........we all determined that we were going to give the folks a breath of fresh air....a chance for some relief. And yet every one of us did some sort of tribute. The gigs were exhausting for the effort in them. And yet, at the end of the night, Twigg and Stevie Wehmeyer from Gaelic Storm, Larry Nugent, Brian Mason, Jon Koeze (from my band), and meself sat down with a table full of the dark stuff and played until 4:00 AM. We found relief, as we always do, in the music.

I believe that is the best rebuke to the animals in this world. They are lost in their fantasy. They believe that they can, in these senseless acts, change the world into what they want it to be, instead of learning to live in it the way it is. My whole life has been devoted to being an agent for change. But I have always known that to do so, I must act, and testify, and make my case in a way that brings people to me. I have always known that I must speak in a language that people understood. These fucking animals were faced with a world that doesn't see it the way they do. They couldn't make their point................so they lashed out thinking they could force us to their way of it. And so the best response is to give them the opposite. To stand up, brush ourselves off, rebuild, and go on.

Their has been much talk of war here. I agree that we must strike out, and bring these people out. But I object to the term. War is a process. It is filthy. And it has a beginning and an end. It is true that we must root these bastards out. It is true that we must destroy, utterly, their ability to do this again. We must bankrupt them. But more importantly, we must cause the nations of the world to reject this as an alternative entirely. And that means it isn't a war, but rather it is molding the moral base that we all operate under. It is the process of alienating in every way possible, those who participate or support it. Which means that it has no end. It must, from September 11, 2001, be forevermore a sin of the highest order, to take terrorist actions against non combatants. And we Yanks must understand that the sin didn't begin here. We are not the only victims. If it is wrong in Manhattan, then it is wrong in Belfast, Omagh, and Derry, it is wrong in Jerusalem, it is wrong in Bagdad, .............. it is just wrong.

Pray, in whatever way you do, for wisdom as we pursue this. Pray that the outcome is a better world. Pray that we pursue not only the purveyors of this terror, but that we also pursue understanding of what we have done that spawned such hate. And then, when the hunt is done, that we will use the same might that we will use in that hunt, to pursue and put an end to hunger and hatred.

The rest of my views can be found HERE.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Fiolar
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 10:22 AM

Kim C: The quotation you mention was made by Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797) Irish born statesman and philosopher and a fervent supporter of the fledgling United States following the declaration of Indpendence. The full version is "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." It has been altered and shortened over the years like so many others but basically many people remember the main body of it. He also said and this could apply to the U.S. today, "He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." and "Our patience will achieve more than our force." Very appropriate.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM

troll,

There are some Muslim countries who want very much to be able to help us. But the governments of these countries who are sympathetic to us still have to contend with different factions within their own countries. They have said that Bush's use of terms such as 'dead or alive' has the potential to cause instability in their countries, making it more difficult for them to be able to help us.

We need all the help we can get right now. I think it is those of us in the US who would most benefit from choosing our words carefully.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Clifton53
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

I saw the smoke and I can smell it as well. Just killing Bin Laden is not going to solve the terrorist threats around the globe. He is only one man, and make no mistake, I would love to see him strapped onto the gurney,but the situation will not end there. There will be no end to it, ever.

I'm in favor of retaliation. I don't wish to see this happen again anywhere in the world. But we all know it will. And I do not wish to see World War III either, which this could easily become.

Clifton


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM

CarolC. We obviously are so far apart in our views on this situation little is to be accomplished by our discussing it further. I just have one more question and would be most interested in your reply.

If Osma bin Laden were to be tried outside the United States by an Islamic Court, and the prosecutors presented evidence that showed irrefutably that he is guilty; would you be satisfied if the Court found him NOT guilty?

Since the crime was committed in the United States I realize it is mute point. If he is brought to trial I cannot imagine it would be anywhere other than here.

I think your answer might help me better understand your point of view though. Conversely, if you have a question for me, I'll be happy to reply.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:13 PM

McGrath, I agree with you about the "Crusade" statement...a very unfortunate choice of phrase.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:55 PM

I think there are a lot of words being tossed carelessly about. I know the news tells me only enough to make me nervous. I have been so hysterical, I have harped to my dear friend the Sergeant until I am probably past his last nerve. Just relax, he said.

Just relax. Easy for him to say. In the Army 15 years and got to miss Desert Storm by virtue of being in Germany at the time.

I don't want you to be so far away from home, I said. You're supposed to be able to get old and fat and bald and play with your grandkids.

I have turned off the news for now because everytime there's a news report about the 82nd or the 101st being on alert, I can't stop crying.

Oddly enough, the Sergeant was in the 101st until two months ago. At this point you know I am glad he relocated. He says he doesn't know any more than I do and I believe him.

(sigh) I don't know what the answer is. It's not as simple as a Country saying, Tag! You're It! It's not Afghanistan. It's people who happen to be there, and heaven knows where else. How many of them are in the States? How many of them are in Europe somewheres? Which one of them is going to blow up my car? Or yours?

My head hurts and I am tired.

(thanks Fiolar, by the way)


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:11 PM

Fiolar: maybe a nice stiff hot toddy would help! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:14 PM

I just spoke with a friend of mine who happens to be a Turkish-born Muslim, now an American citizen. I asked if he had experienced any hostility, and he answered no. But he then said "you know the Turkish people are very strong allies of the US, but when Bush says he's launching a 'Crusade' it makes it very difficult for Muslim countries to support him. It's hard to believe that his speechwriters would slip up like that... he must have been improvising. That word is taboo in the Mid-east."


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:33 PM

Lonesome EJ, please check out the "Fly the Flag" to read my response to your statement. Just posted.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:23 PM

After week of reading (mostly on the Internet), watching a ridiculous amount of television (news programs and discussions), and listening to the radio (news, discussions, and call-ins), a few patterns are beginning to emerge from the conglomeration of information and data. The following represents a few of my thoughts and speculations on this.

Despite the fact that it's almost a dead certainty that Osama bin Laden masterminded the terrorist attacks of last week, we do not yet know this with absolute certainty. Until we do, it behooves us to tread lightly. It also behooves us to remember that Osama bin Laden is not the main issue here. Terrorism is. bin Laden's organization is such that, if the head were to be removed, someone else would move in to take his place. Other than partially satisfying the thoroughly understandable blood-lust of those who demand revenge, it would accomplish nothing. In fact, it could make things worse. It would give the terrorists an excuse to wreak "vengeance for vengeance" and redouble their efforts. What you can expect if Osama bin Laden is captured or killed is another massive terrorist attack, undoubtedly far worse than the one last week. And appalling as the idea is, one must never forget the existence of chemical and biological weapons -- or the nuclear bomb in the suitcase.

A byproduct of American foreign policy, going back as far as the late 1940s and the founding of the state of Israel, and America's subsequent support of Israel, is that we incurred the anger and resentment of a large percentage of the population of the Arab countries, most of whom are Muslims. Our actions within recent decades, especially operation Desert Storm, have further directed anger and resentment in our direction -- forgetting, of course, that Kuwait asked for our aid when they were invaded by Iraq. The hatred and fanaticism of bin Laden and his cohorts has reached the point where there is nothing short of the entire population of America committing suicide that would appease them. The only demand that bin Laden makes is that we all die. At this point, the terrorists attack us not for what we have done, nor for any concessions we could make, but simply for who we are.

On call-in and discussion programs, I have listened especially hard to Muslim speakers. They all assert that Islam is not a religion which advocates violence. Several Muslims have stated that Islam maintains that "to kill one innocent person is as big a sin as killing the whole world." One speaker, on NPR this morning, defined the word "jihad" as meaning "struggle." He described the four jihads. The only definition that could even remotely apply to the actions of the terrorists is the "jihad of the sword." But this, the speaker said, applies only to self-defense. And what the terrorists are doing is attacking; it is not self-defense. The most important jihad of all is the jihad of the soul: the inner struggle. The speaker emphasized that, no matter what they believe, they are not Muslims, they are terrorists.

Another discussion I listened to was between two retired generals. One of the generals was composed entirely of knee-jerks. His whole thesis was, "Reduce them to rubble! Nuke 'em till they glow!" That, the other general asserted, would be totally counterproductive. It would accomplish nothing to destroy a country that has already been destroyed, and it might very well cause the Muslim countries to coalesce against us. And this, he said, is exactly what Osama bin Laden wants: a Great Jihad between Islam and the West.

This general suggested that the best approach is to discredit and humiliated bin Laden and his followers. Don't make martyrs of them, make pariahs of them. Cut off their support and give them no haven. We can't do that. But the Muslim countries can. We must induce the Muslim countries, even those hostile to us, to repudiate bin Laden and his followers. This cannot be accomplished by military action. It requires diplomacy of the highest order.

This is, indeed, an entirely new kind of war. Are we up to the challenge?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Troll
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM

Good post Don. Theres some real food for thought there.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:37 PM

I agree Don. My next question is, how do you practice diplomacy on people who only understand violence?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM

Don, I like your post and if you check back, I have been making that same point on thread after thread and post after post for the past week.

My best hope is that those advising Bush are understanding of the fact that the body of the beast must be destroyed and not the head, because terrorism is a multi-headed beast. We must work to cutoff the supply of money, the support, the places to train, and the places to hide. We can only accomplish this through worldwide approval and a coalition of governments willing to dry up the terrorist supply lines. None of this necessarily involves any form of all out attacks militarily. This is a "war" of stealth and pressure. It is also a marathon and not a sprint.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:49 PM

Don that was more sense than I have been able to make of all the input.

Is it not incumbent on those states that share the religion, to quickly isolate those the 'kill' in the name of that religion.

I keep hearing that there is nothing in the religion that supports these 'forbidden' acts, like suicide.

Peace and tolerence is what is meant by the word 'fundamental', when applied to the religion. How has it come to mean war, hate and vengence?

Do not the vast majority of followers of the faith see that the perverted meanings must be actively distanced, and its fanaticical followers cut off from the support they leach from the main body of the religion?

Why do they appear so reluctant to do this?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM

Maybe they are afraid too.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 03:07 PM

Well in the States they give Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell time to broadcast their rather narrow, pathetic views on the TV. Those of us who know that they don't speak for all Christians don't always stand up and refute them, we know they are ridiculous and ignore them.

Perhaps the few views we get here in the western world of Islam have been very unbalanced. We have been allowing the fanatics to become the main speakers of the group simply because it makes for good dramatic television while many of those of more moderate views shrug their shoulders because they know the fanatics are ridiculous. A lot fo them are also a lot poorer and are spending a lot of time simply working like hell to get food, water and other basics for themselves and their families.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 03:13 PM

If Islam is indeed a religion of peace as many of its leaders keep insisting, they cannot continue to support terrorists who claim to act in the name of Islam without branding themselves as hypocrites or worse. Put as politely as possible for the sake of diplomacy, this should be written in letters of fire for all to see. Many Muslim leaders have already repudiated the terrorists. Now, are they going to walk the walk, or are they just going to talk the talk?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM

Eureka! I've got it. We'll start a PMS Brigade. We'll get a bunch of women with PMS to go over there (and we'll have to rotate and take turns because everybody don't have it at the same time), and all we'll have to do is Be There, and the terrorists will Flee in horror and never come back. Nobody wants to be around a bunch of extremely hormonal women. We wouldn't even have to load our weapons, they could just be decoys.

(now, before anyone says it's bad manners to pick on women with PMS, let me remind you, I'm one of them, and I know how I get. I become a two-footed Sherman tank with all guns blazing and ask questions later.)

Humor aside... in many Native American cultures, menstruating women were sent away during their moon. Not because they were unclean, but because they were believed to have "strong medicine" at that particular time. Maybe there is something to that.

And Don, again, I agree with you. They are going to have to do more than just talk. Bin Laden's family disowned him, and Saudi Arabia told him to get lost. Who else will?

What sort of person follows someone who was kicked out of their family and their country? Bin Laden seems to me to be not necessarily a Hitler, but more like a Charles Manson - getting other people to do his bidding while he sits back and watches. Do his followers think he has a better way?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:16 PM

"Are they going to walk the walk or talk the talk." I suppose, Don, time will tell.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,Hello
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:38 PM

There is a lot of talk about diplomacy which is fine until, as someone pointed out, you are dealing with people whose entire philosophy is opposed to diplomatic solutions. This includes Bin laden, but also the extreme (and not so extreme) elements whose only goal (which is one of Bin Laden's) is the destruction of Israel. I am amazed at how many people seem oblivious to the vast significance of Israel in this matter. Am i the only one who consistently hears Israel and the U.S. used in the same breath by most Middle Eastern Terrorists. Terrorism and anti-U.S. attitudes will never end as long as we support Israel. The U.S. won't abandon Israel. I am sorry to say it, but a lot of these folks are never going to like or respect us. So, sadly, we may be forced into making them fear us as the only course of action. Such fear may not get rid of the Bin Laden's, but it will certainly make others very hesitant to support them or shelter them. I would be happy to hear comments, but please don't waste my time with statements that don't include a clear understanding of the role of Israel in this matter.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Kim C
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM

I admit I do not have a clear understanding of Israel's role. I am working on it, though, and certainly welcome enlightenment in that respect.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:59 PM

Let's take it to a new thread.....

AMERICAN ATTACKS PART 9, one week later

Hard to believe isn't it? Don, I'm glad you're getting some notice here........"I doan get no respeck"

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,Hello
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM

I am by no means an expert on Middle Eastern Affairs, although, based on reading many posts at this site, I feel confident in saying that i am somewhat better informed than the typical Mudcatter. On that note, I would be very happy to hear from someone who does represent an expert opinion.

Something to consider. The U.S. played a great role in brokering peace between Israel and Egypt. That relationship remains stable (at least by Middle Eastern standards). However, Egypt paid the price of having its leader killed by extremists who opposed the peace. These extremists continue to have a horrible effect on Egyptian internal affairs. And some of these folks are in collusion with Bin Laden. In fact, one of them was actually involved in the bombing. I am not sure how diplomacy is going to work in this instance.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

Still simmering on. Hard to play catch-up but I'm glad Don Firth did his post. Oh, and thanks to Bugpuss for the link to "On Hiroshima and Nagasaki." I only remember the ice cream party that my folks and their friends had on VJ day, and how depressed some of the wives looked when they realized they'd have to give up their professional jobs and return to good housekeeping.

Whatever can we do with George W. blabbermouth? He occasionally makes some sane statements and then blows it all away with "Crusades" and "dead or alive." This is the man who is supposed to provide the leadership to form an anti-terrorist coalition of Christain, Moslem, (add your favorite missing religious group) states. Bizarre...:-()


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: GUEST,Dead Horse
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:20 PM

The topic of "crusade" and "dead or alive" have been beat to death elsewhere. But to rehash, Crusade has a rather different meaning from that of the Middle Ages. One can hear of Crusades against poverty, AIDS, etc. Some people argue that Moslems only consider its original meaning, yet i have not heard of Moslems being outraged. CASE CLOSED!!

Dead or alive in the old west (which Bush specifically referred to) meant that someone was guilty/suspected of a crime that was serious enough to warrant the use of deadly force in their capture. Considering that Bin laden has been indicted for crimes and is the top suspect in others, that statement is in no way extreme. CASE CLOSED!!


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:43 PM

Egypt paid the price of having its leader killed by extremists who opposed the peace

So did Israel of course.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM

Well mudcatters ... now you all can see why I have admired and respected Don Firths' mind and heart for close to fifty years! He is a treasure. I wonder if the State Dept has any openings? CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS=PART EIGHT.more still
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:07 PM

POST HERE on #9

Spaw


These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient.
Thanks
-Joe Offer-

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