No More Violence

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: UB Ed
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM

Doug R, I too really appreciated Carol C's thoughtful proposal to move forward. That is clearly the right thing to do. Unfortunately, I believe, in this situation, it is simple wishful thinking to believe Terrorism can be eliminated without tactical military action. So I subscribe to eloquent Carol with the caveat to include a military response.

All of us need to be mindful that we are operating and forming opinions based on the information provide to us by the media. My Paki friends assure me the position in their homeland is not as tenuous as the media would have us believe. While the government is paying attention to its radical element, it also recognizes that this is a vocal minority.

Pakistan has more to gain in carefully working with the coalition, and subscription to Carol's approach (Which is what I believe Colin Powell will do) is the key.

Finally, its time for everybody to stop telling everybody else to fuck off. The medium for communication in this forum is the written word; lets all please 1) have some respect for others' views and 2) recognize we can't see each others' faces or hear each others' tones and subsequently are getting less than half the communication. This should apply to posters as well as their readers. The biggest bummer in going through these threads is when a genuine question is responded to with an "asshole" or "fuck off."

Ed

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:49 PM

Ed - I certainly agree with the respect thing. I've been going back to old postings, yes thinking before engaging my fingers, and trying to sort out what folks are saying. It seems to take history for me to adequately put the posting in context.

It further lends credence to opposing views when they are pedicated with words like "respect your views" and really searching for the common ground. I firmly believe we are all seeking the same answer. The beauty of Mudcat for me is that it epitomizes what I fought for. Freedom - in all of its abherent, inane, functional, ways. And the only thing that really gets hurt here is our feelings.

Almost all of what I have on this whole deal has come from here. I've been able to take it in little pieces and react to it in a safe space. And I'm starting to see some songs come from it - the epitome of what Mudcat is about - Folk Music. Peace - Steve

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: Deda
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM

"Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are ANGER and COURAGE; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." - St. Augustine

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:13 PM

Ed, unfortunately "asshole" and "fuck off" are the only ways some people know to answer someone who disagrees with their viewpoint. Hopefully this will be a growing experience for them and they will come to understand that give-and-take is the normal way things are done. They must learn that a dissenting viewpoint is not a personal attack on them.

troll

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:18 AM

Well, we'll see, won't we, troll. I suspect the folks that answer posts with words like those will not change their "spots." Perhaps because they are not confident of their arguments, or they desperately "want" to be right, but they are not sure they are.

Norton1, there is no reason for anyone to be rude when they reply to someone whose views differ from theirs, but on the other hand, some folks just can't resist.

DougR

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:18 AM

TRue enough Doug. And you get them on both sides in any argument. They tend to be the people you wish were on the other side. (Though talking about "sides" is giving in to the assumption that it is a lot simpler than it actually is.)

And UB Ed - if your Pakistani friends are OK about being referred to as Pakis, I'd suggest they are a bit unusual. In my experience that is a word more typically used as an insult, and understood as such. So I'd advise people to be very very careful about using it, and better to avoid it. The generally aceptable word is Pakistanis.

(It might seem logical that if someone from Afghanistan can be referred to as an Afghani, quite correctly and with no insult intended or understood, then someone from Pakistan should be referred to as a Paki. But it's not the case, because Pakistan is a made up word and does not incorporate the name of a people, unlike Afghanistan. It's a bit like referring to the natives of the USA as Usans.)

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:31 AM

UB Ed, I heard on one news broadcast last night, that about one third of the Pakistani military is sympathetic to the Taliban. I heard on an earlier news report that the members of he Pakistani military who are sympathetic to the Taliban tend to be the rank and file.

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: GUEST,dandyprat
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:11 AM

It's such a relief from the sabre-rattling to come across a site like this and find issues actually being debated! I was on a hunt for folk music lyrics, to get away from channel-surfing the TV and finding only shallow reporting. CNN and Fox are great at telling where and how but cant even attempt the why. Carol does it for me. Greetings from Australia. Peace.

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:48 AM

Welcome, dandyprat. At times it gets a bit frenetic, but compared to other places on the Internet I've been looking at recently, the discussions here tend to stay pretty level headed and coherent.

Maybe have a look through the Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide and Mudcat Site Map and PermaThread Index. There's treasure in the Mudcat and the Digital Tradition, both musical and other things.

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: GUEST,dandyprat
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 12:09 AM

Thanks McGrath, I'll do as you say. It's always comforting to find some like minds, or at least some stimulating ones. I find folk music to be a great comfort to me in any situation, that or the sea!

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: UB Ed
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:34 AM

McGrath, my Pakistani friends are unusual only in that they are very kind and sensitive to this overly enthusiastic and loud American and would never point out such a thing based on my ignorance. Thanks so much for the insight. (By the way USans isn't too bad. Didn't Pink Floyd do a song about USans and Them?).

Carol, lets keep our eyes on this one. If there are Taliban sympathies among the military, I would expect it to be rank and file.

Ed

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 10:03 AM

Personally if I came from the USA I'd be all in favour of being a Usan. Or would that be an Usan. That sounds a bit too much like being a nuisance, maybe. (It makes a difference whether you pronounce your "a" as in cat or Kate.)

But I's want to decide that sort of thing myself, and not have the name landed on me by outsiders.

As for assuming that Taliban supporters in the military of Pakistan would be lower ranks, I doubt if that'd be a safe assumption. Osama Bin Laden himself for example comes from a very wealthy background - True Believers aren't necessarily poor. And aside from that, many armies have ambitious senior officers ready to see an opportunity of seizing an opportunity. That's how coups happen, and Pakistan has had enough of them. (In fact the present government is only there by virtue of a pretty recent coup.)

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: UB Ed
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:43 PM

Aren't we being a bit generous in "labeling" Bin Laden and the Taliban as "true believers?" My perception is that their version of Islam is not the "mainstream" version practiced by the majority, but is more of a radical version, quite similar to those who preach hatred in any other religion. If that's the case, I would believe the rank and file would be more susceptible to a message of hate and intolerance.

That being said, you are absolutely correct regarding the ambitous young officers who could parlay an opportunity for a coup. They would do this regardless of religous affiliation.

This is like peeling an onion and provides a good lesson on the complexities of the world and why we should be thoughtful as we think, speak and act.

I believe we Usans would use both "a" pronunciations based on regional dialect...

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: Troll
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

They feel that THEY are the true Muslims and that the rest are backsliders at best and heretics at worst. The rest of the world may not see it quite that way but bin Laden & Co. don't seem too concerned.

troll

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: DougR
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:28 PM

Right troll, "they" THINK they are the true believers.

DougR

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:56 PM

True Believer with capital letters I would use to refer to someone who believes in an intolerant and fanatical way. You get them in all religions.

Subject: RE: No More Violence
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:16 PM

:-)I know next to nothing about Islamic culture but I was thinking if they had something like the NFL they might get alot of crap out of their system (minus the beer). That is if you can fit it between prayers. I just have not been exposed to gigantic Arab sporting events. Is it banned?