Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM Hard to believe isn't it? I looked back at my very first post to this series and realized that I posted it just as I watched the second plane hit.......Can't say we're not topical here. It's been a long week and we've seen the best of ourselves and others and also the worst. Thanks to all of you who have made my week better for your astute and well thought postings. We have not always agreed, but I have gained a heightened respect if that were possible for the fine folks who have been my neighbors here at the 'Cat over the years. Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 18 Sep 01 - 04:59 PM I'm glad there are others that agree that we can disagree. I think mudcat is a great place to see different points of view on such an emotional topic. While irritating at times, it does allow me to stop and look at different sides of what is going on. No one is forced to agree with each other, and who knows, maybe people will start to understand the opposing point of view. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:00 PM BTW.....Thread # 8 is here.....just to keep things linked. Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 18 Sep 01 - 05:41 PM I have had so many thoughts running rampant through my head, and so many maverick emotions, it has been nice to have a place to get them out. There are a few more in there, too. :-) |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:08 PM Could not agree more! Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 18 Sep 01 - 06:12 PM This is a petition that was started on Sept 14. Some mudcatters might want to sign it.
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:35 PM Let the powers of your heart speed your healing, and move with the flow of time onto better things. It is for the living to roll up their sleeves and git down to it. A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 18 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM DougR, in answer to your question... I guess it would depend on what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to make the US and the world safer from terrorism, my opinion is that we need the help of the Arab world and the Muslim world. So if they find Bin Laden innocent, but at the same time, help us to root out and eliminate the massive webs of terrorist organizations, and also help us to render people like Bin Laden unable to cause harm, then I would endorse their actions. If what we are trying to accomplish is to try to maintain this illusion we as a nation seem to have, that we are superior to the rest of the world, that we are invincible, that we don't need anyone's help, and that we will, by golly, show those bastards that they can't mess with us, then I'm afraid nothing will help us. Whether Bin Laden is brought to justice or not. So, I am in favor of whatever will help promote the goal of making the world safer for all of us. Whether that includes the elimination of Bin Laden, or not. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:00 AM This is a war -- if you can even call it that -- that involves identifying people who ar ehidden, in groups that are not a nation, have no capitals, move in shadows, who can ruin the morale of a giant nation with a boxcutter, for Christ's sake, and who communicate by word of mouth. To even identify them, let alone act effectively against them, requires an extent of intelligence we haven't begun to master. Intelligence comes from over-fly photos and sensors (ELECINT), or it comes from human beings (HUMINT). And there is no way we will ever penetrate this distributed networks of well- but loosely-organized criminals with sat recces and electronic sensors. We need, therefore to make a LOT of friends in the world of Islam, very fast, and we need to deploy them in every corner of the Middle East gathering opinions, bits and pieces, learning who is friends with whom, who buys what where, whose son has just been tapped to join the Network, who suddenly seems to be spending oney like a drunken sailor, whether in the market places of Kabul or those of Tel Aviv. This kind of networking has not been deployed by Western operatives since the heyday of Wild Bill Donovan, or the French Resistance. But this is the only way to permeate a network of people who are not identifiable by their big capitols or their five-star command HQs or their tanks and battalions moving across the plains for any bird to see. Once their trails are found we can take action against them -- cutting off funds, spiking their cellphones or even sending small squads in to bring a few of them at a time off for summary justice somewhere. I don't see any other effective path, and it is a long drawn out path. Breaking out the B52s and the smart missiles isn't going to hit them in an effective point because, unless I am seriously misinformed (which has been known to happen) they have no crossroads to bomb. They are organized in cells, like the hidden Reds of Joe McCarthy's nightmares. But unlike the CP's cells these guys are capable of tight, fast coordination. They are similar in many ways to the cells of the early Bolsheviks, except accelerated by technology. It CERTAINLY will never help to alienate and terrify any Muslim you see in the U.S. as a "probable sympathizer"/ A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Peter Kasin Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:12 AM Yesterday there was a very moving interfaith memorial service for the victims, held in San Francisco's Bill Graham Civic Auditorium, the city's version of Madison Square Garden. Thousands attended. The 2-hour service began with a procession into the auditorium of over 100 clergy from many religions. A Muslim cleric, followed by a cantor, sung opening prayers. The pols were represented by California's governor, two Senators, SF's congressional rep, Mayor, and former Secretary of State George Schultz, who lives in SF. Religious leaders - an Archbishop, a Rabbi, Muslim cleric, Presbyterian, Unitarian, Bahaii and Baptist ministers, a Priest from Hawaii, a Buddhist, and a Sikh all spoke and gave prayers. The partner of Mark Bingham, one of the three who alledgedly rushed the hijackers in the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, gave a personal portrait of him, and was given an award on behalf of Mark Bingham. The message and mood was one of national purpose, patriotism, solidarity with American Arabs who are experiencing harassment, and a call for national unity in the struggle against terrorism. It was a mighty show of unity. After the closing benediction, Lou Rawls sang "God Bless America" as everyone filed out. Everyone was then welcome to take roses that were handed out, and bring them to a memorial for the police and firefighters who died, and for all the victims, that was set up in the civic center plaza. The only blight was a very inapropriate speech by a minister who took the occasion to make a political speech about America's foibles, decrying our walkout of the U.N. conference on racism, among others. No matter who agrees with him or not, it was pretty tasteless for him to go off like that in the midst of a memorial. He was rebuked by Rep. Nancy Pelosi, who spoke soon after him. All told, it was San Francisco at its finest - unified, compassionate, patriotic, and firm. Shame it takes a national tragedy to bring that out, but it's good to know people can respond in that way, and that those feelings are there. -chanteyranger |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:13 AM Spaw, In you opening post of this chapter of the series, you said what I tried to say in the "Thank you all" thread I started last night, far more eloquently than I ever could. Can you imagine what basket cases we'd be if we couldn't come here. Not that it's been a bed of roses but it would be that much worse. You're right we are neighbors in this little corner of cyberspace, and there aren't many neighborhoods in 3D that can claim to have this much compassion, caring and understanding. I don't ever want to take this place for granted, again. Thanks again, 'Cats and God (of your choosing) bless you all. Rich |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: DougR Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM Thanks, Carol. I'm pleased to get your answer to the question. DougR |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:02 AM HAs anycody checked teh link that I provided earlier in this thread? Just wondering.... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:12 AM Yes, it's fine, Soph, and a good link to have. My kids found something lying by the side of the road last night, that I found movingly metaphorical. Thought I'd share this... A single, very long-stemmed, very thorny, rose. The rose was wilting, the as-yet unfaded crimson petals no longer turgid, the whole flower drooping from the stem. The leaves were dry and brittle, but none had fallen. The stem was still pliable, not yet hardened and dry. The thorns were, well, thorny. And at the bottom was still the little plastic thing that Americans put their roses in so they'll not have to feel the thorns. I found every single aspect of it reflected this last week. Draw your own metaphors... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:23 AM Thanks Mrrzy for letting me know. I started a thread on the petition yesterday labelled "No More Violence" (a bit bland perhaps but accurate). I also included a very good poem by Auden. As yet only one person has responded to that thread. However a thread titled "Sycophantic Americans" which is clearly a troll has had far more responses, even though all it does is repeat a Bob Dylan song which has already been posted a few times in the last week. Terrorists, like trolls and flamers, like attention, and apparently they get it even from those who complain about them. There is something comforting about doing the predictable isn't there? By chance, CBC radio is at this moment reading that poem over the airwaves. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM I think some of us need to plead jelly-brains. It's been a long week, and we still need to deal with this "war" business. I know I have responded to several petitions/send an e-mail to whomever links. But I'm having a hard time trying to keep track of which one's I've responded to. I guess it's the fatigue factor. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:40 AM I have only read this and two other threads this AM......and Soph, I did click the link and I'll go back and find your other thread too. Good petition. I get aggravated too at times when I can clearly see that some link that often answers a question thoroughly, has been obviously ignored. Okay....just found the simpleass other thread you mention and again, no matter how right or wrong the thought, that is a troll!!! Why do we respond to that crap all the time? I know there may be some difference of opinion on what a troll is, but anything with that nasty a title fits the bill. Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM Thanks Carol C. and Spaw. I've in the grip of a nasty headcold which makes me a little oversensitive and touchy. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM I plead jelly-brains! Me! Me! Although they are starting to be a little more firm today. Reports of soldiers being on alert still make me nervous. There was a story in the news several weeks ago about a small village in Turkey whose ancient plumbing system finally broke down. The women got this fixed by refusing to hanky-panky until the plumbing system was replaced. And of course... it worked. No surprise there. I wonder what would happen if we were to somehow convince the women of Afghanistan to withhold conjugal relations until bin Laden is extradited... just a thought... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM Kim, they would probably be stoned to death. Turkey is a lot more liberal than the Taliban Govt. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:38 AM Maybe if Laura Bush did? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:54 AM Oh yeah... stoning... I hadn't thought of that... Well, let's just send in the PMS Brigade then! |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: katlaughing Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:56 AM I clicked on the link and signed. It is a well-written petition. Someone had sent me the Auden poem, I didn't see your thread with it, but I was on overloaded yesterday and didn't see many threads at all. It is an incredibly beautiful and appropriate poem. I am sending the petition link out to others by email. My daughters found out this morning that someone they went to school with is missing from the WTC. It touches everywhere. Now, I am wondering about another friend of theirs who works in NYC. I don't think she had reason to be near there, but I'll need to make a phone call or two before I feel assured. kat |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM I knew one person in NYC. I was able to get e-mail through to her early on, and she is fine. Mister's boss was on a trip to NYC, staying at the Marriott just a few blocks away. Obviously their return was delayed by several days, so they just stayed in the room and ordered room service. They were afraid to leave the hotel. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: katlaughing Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:03 PM The poster at the link sophocleese provided, is beautiful and simple. It is easily printable. To find it, scroll down tot he paragraphs near the bottom on the right. I have printed one out and will put it in my car window. Just found out my youngest daughter's best friend from school in Mystic, CT, was only a few blocks away and was unable to get home for several days, from her workplace. The Geo. washington brige was closed, of course, then she tried the train and there was a bomb threat, the next day she tried the bus, again a bomb scare. So, it took her many frazzled days to reach home and feel safe. We are very thankful that she is safe, she's a very special young woman. kat |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Steve in Idaho Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:05 PM sophocleese - will sign your petition and forward to my friends and family that are supportive of this. Thanks for providing the link - Peace - Steve |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: SINSULL Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:20 PM Aristophanes' Lysistrata - the women of Sparta and Greece refused to have sexual relations with their men until peace talks were begun. Even the prostitutes took part. I wonder... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:27 PM In some parts of the world, sex is the only power a woman has. Get this.... it was in the local news last night that a Sgt in the National Guard was arrested for making 5 bomb threats, on the Armory in Nashville and several other places. A person with some responsibility - a person we would rely on to protect us. What the hell do you reckon he was thinking? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM If you are suggesting that for this country, go for it. If you are suggesting that for Afghanistan, forget it. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:29 PM Actually I wonder how many men take out their frustrations of NOT having sex by indulging in fantasy military actions. Perhaps we should be giving them all Viagra and encouraging them to relax.... On a more serious note here is a link to an article which gives a history of CIA involvement with Pakistan and Afghanistan. It might help clear up some misunderstandings about the use of the word 'jihad'. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM I've decided from now on that anytime I open a thread and it's started by GUEST anything - unless it's someone I whose name I recognise and respect - I'm going to close it right down. (Apart form Lyr Req of course).
Up till now I've tended to read on and maybe join in if it gets interesting, which it sometimes can. But life's too short, and it's advisable to bet on the percentages sometimes.
And of course I've clicked on sophocleese's link up the top of this thread and I was pleased to see it. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM Naw, it wasn't a serious suggestion. But the idea that women in Turkey could pull this off was sorta humorous. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:49 PM Yeah Kim C. I think the problem is that we need more men who take their frustrations out on plumbing rather than killing. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Lox Date: 19 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM Hiya folks, Links to explore:- www.michaelmoore.com www.alternativetentacles.com On the second site, check out the news and links sections seeya lox |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM Lysistrata, thanks, I knew it was in my brain somewhere. Is everybody as incredibly tired as I am today? I think I'm coming down off a week-long adrenaline rush... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:12 PM I've heard there is a saying among Moslem men that there are only two places for a wife, in the house, or in the ground. Brutal Clifton |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM Clifton53, did you know that in Oklahoma, possibly still, but certainly not too long ago, there was a law on the books stating that the stick a man could beat his wife with couldn't be any thicker in diameter than his wedding ring? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Greg F. Date: 19 Sep 01 - 02:29 PM Right, Clifton: like the saying current among U.S. "christian" men saying that women should be kept barefoot and pregnant? Were you born an ass or did it come over you slowly, by degrees? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM Well, if it was made of titanium it might be okay...... Moving on........... Received an e-mail from Arlonet with Arlo's message after the disaster: My Friends, Yesterday was a day we will never forget. The images of the attack upon ordinary people will remain with us all of our lives. In her daily prayers this morning, Ma said, "THERE MUST BE PEACE ON EARTH OR THERE WILL BE NO EARTH". She is right. Once again we are reminded that our journeys through life are filled with opportunities to do good or evil. We must learn to know the difference between God's will and man's choice. Our choice must be to love and respect each other no matter that our traditions and cultures are varied and different. Our enemy is clearly before us. Hate, religious intolerance, fear and anger are our foes. We are a people of love, welcoming our global family with open arms. We know no fear - Our hearts are already filled. Just remember who we are and we will be all right. Today, I will remain in prayer with my family and friends from a dozen different religious traditions - We are all in tears.
Keep The Faith Just another folky's thoughts. Spaw
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM I knew there was a good reason I liked Arlo. But what about the 8x10 glossy photographs with the circles and arrows? ;-) |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 01 - 02:50 PM Okay Fiddlebum......CLICK HERE Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: The Shambles Date: 19 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM Such Is The God It is my belief that we may have created God, in our image and not the other way round. ?
You will find, in the finest of gardens
Inquisitions and witch-hunts and final solutions
The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison
Do you join in the song, that everyone's singing?
The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison Roger Gall 1996
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM Heehee! The Group W Bench! Thanks Spaw, I have bookmarked it to go back and play a little more later. Maybe if we all go over and subject the Taliban to a rousing rendition of the full version of Alice's Restaurant........ hmmm.............. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM Ok. Word on the tube is that "Infinite Justice" is the name under which they want to market this military effort. They don't have everyone on board for this name yet, so it's not official. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM How about Operation Pale Rider? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:41 PM Greg, I did not get the impression from Cliftons post that he I felt that he was commenting on the status of women in the Isalmic world and, apart from the upper-class Muslims, he is probably right. My impression was that he didn't approve. Maybe you missed that last word? "Brutal." troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: katlaughing Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:49 PM Shambles, that is absolutely beautiful. Thank you for posting it. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Firecat Date: 19 Sep 01 - 04:57 PM Actually, all the threads about that day are gonna help with my A Level German homework. 1000 word essay on the events of last week and what myself and others think of it. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Deda Date: 19 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM Here's a pretty riveting eye-witness account of escaping from the WTC: ________________________________________________________ THE PRICE WE PAY: My name is Adam Mayblum. I am alive today. I am committing this to "paper" so I never forget. SO WE NEVER FORGET. I am sure that this is one of thousands of stories that will emerge over the next several days and weeks. I arrived as usual a little before 8am. My office was on the 87th floor of 1 World Trade Center, AKA: Tower 1, AKA: the North Tower. Most of my associates were in by 8:30m. We were standing around, joking around, eating breakfast, checking emails, and getting set for the day when the first plane hit just a few stories above us. I must stress that we did not know that it was a plane. The building lurched violently and shook as if it were an earthquake. People screamed. I watched out my window as the building seemed to move 10 to 20 feet in each direction. It rumbled and shook long enough for me to get my wits about myself and grab a co-worker and seek shelter under a doorway. Light fixtures and parts of the ceiling collapsed. The kitchen was destroyed. We were certain that it was a bomb. We looked out the windows. Reams of paper were flying everywhere, like a ticker tape parade. I looked down at the street. I could see people in Battery Park City looking up. Smoke started billowing in through the holes in the ceiling. I believe that there were 13 of us. We did not panic. I can only assume that we thought that the worst was over. The building was standing and we were shaken but alive. We checked the halls. The smoke was thick and white and did not smell like I imagined smoke should smell. Not like your BBQ or your fireplace or even a bonfire. The phones were working. My wife had taken our 9 month old for his check up. I called my nanny at home and told her to page my wife, tell her that a bomb went off, I was ok, and on my way out. I grabbed my laptop. Took off my tee shirt and ripped it into 3 pieces. Soaked it in water. Gave 2 pieces to my friends. Tied my piece around my face to act as an air filter. And we all started moving to the staircase. One of my dearest friends said that he was staying until the police or firemen came to get him. In the halls there were tiny fires and sparks. The ceiling had collapsed in the men's bathroom. It was gone along with anyone who may have been in there. We did not go in to look. We missed the staircase on the first run and had to double back. Once in the staircase we picked up fire extinguishers just incase. On the 85th floor a brave associate of mine and I headed back up to our office to drag out my partner who stayed behind. There was no air, just white smoke. We made the rounds through the office calling his name. No response. He must have succumbed to the smoke. We left defeated in our efforts and made our way back to the stairwell. We proceeded to the 78th floor where we had to change over to a different stairwell. 78 is the main junction to switch to the upper floors. I expected to see more people. There were some 50 to 60 more. Not enough. Wires and fires all over the place. Smoke too. A brave man was fighting a fire with the emergency hose. I stopped with two friends to make sure that everyone from our office was accounted for. We ushered them and confused people into thestairwell. In retrospect, I recall seeing Harry, my head trader, doing the same several yards behind me. I am only 35. I have known him for over 14 years. I headed into the stairwell with 2 friends. We were moving down very orderly in Stair Case A. very slowly. No panic. At least not overt panic. My legs could not stop shaking. My heart was pounding. Some nervous jokes and laughter. I made a crack about ruining a brand new pair of Merrells. Even still, they were right, my feet felt great. We all laughed. We checked our cell phones. Surprisingly, there was a very good signal, but the Sprint network was jammed. I heard that the Blackberry 2 way email devices worked perfectly. On the phones, 1 out of 20 dial attempts got through. I knew I could not reach my wife so I called my parents. I told them what happened and that we were all okay and on the way down. Soon, my sister in law reached me. I told her we were fine and moving down. I believe that was about the 65th floor. We were bored and nervous. I called my friend Angel in San Francisco. I knew he would be watching. He was amazed I was on the phone. He told me to get out that there was another plane on its way. I did not know what he was talking about. By now the second plane had struck Tower 2. We were so deep into the middle of our building that we did not hear or feel anything. We had no idea what was really going on. We kept making way for wounded to go down ahead of us. Not many of them, just a few. No one seemed seriously wounded. Just some cuts and scrapes. Everyone cooperated. Everyone was a hero yesterday. No questions asked. I had co-workers in another office on the 77th floor. I tried dozens of times to get them on their cell phones or office lines. It was futile. Later I found that they were alive. One of the many miracles on a day of tragedy. On the 53rd floor we came across a very heavyset man sitting on the stairs. I asked if he needed help or was he just resting. He needed help. I knew I would have trouble carrying him because I have a very bad back. But my friend and I offered anyway. We told him he could lean on us. He hesitated, I don't know why. I said do you want to come or do you want us to send help for you. He chose for help. I told him he was on the 53rd floor in Stairwell A and that's what I would tell the rescue workers. He said okay and we left. On the 44th floor my phone rang again. It was my parents. They were hysterical. I said relax, I'm fine. My father said get out, there is third plane coming. I still did not understand. I was kind of angry. What did my parents think? Like I needed some other reason to get going? I couldn't move the thousand people in front of me any faster. I know they love me, but no one inside understood what the situation really was. My parents did. Starting around this floor the firemen, policemen, WTC K-9 units without the dogs, anyone with a badge, started coming up as we were heading down. I stopped a lot of them and told them about the man on 53 and my friend on 87. I later felt terrible about this. They headed up to find those people and met death instead. On the 33rd floor I spoke with a man who somehow knew most of the details. He said 2 small planes hit the building. Now we all started talking about which terrorist group it was. Was it an internal organization or an external one? The overwhelming but uninformed opinion was Islamic Fanatics. Regardless, we now knew that it was not a bomb and there were potentially more planes coming. We understood. On the 3r floor the lights went out and we heard & felt this rumbling coming towards us from above. I thought the staircase was collapsing upon itself. It was 10am now and that was Tower 2 collapsing next door. We did not know that. Someone had a flashlight. We passed it forward and left the stairwell and headed down a dark and cramped corridor to an exit. We could not see at all. I recommended that everyone place a hand on the shoulder of the person in front of them and call out if they hit an obstacle so others would know to avoid it. They did. It worked perfectly. We reached another stairwell and saw a female officer emerge soaking wet and covered in soot. She said we could not go that way it was blocked. Go up to 4 and use the other exit. Just as we started up she said it was ok to go down instead. There was water everywhere. I called out for hands on shoulders again and she said that was a great idea. She stayed behind instructing people to do that. I do not know what happened to her. We emerged into an enormous room. It was light but filled with smoke. I commented to a friend that it must be under construction. Then we realized where we were. It was the second floor. The one that overlooks the lobby. We were ushered out into the courtyard, the one where the fountain used to be. My first thought was of a TV movie I saw once about nuclear war and fallout. I could not understand where all of the debris came from. There was at least five inches of this gray pasty dusty drywall soot on the ground as well as a thickness of it in the air. Twisted steel and wires. I heard there were bodies and body parts as well, but I did not look. It was bad enough. We hid under the remaining overhangs and moved out to the street. We were told to keep walking towards Houston Street. The odd thing is that there were very few rescue workers around. Less than five. They all must have been trapped under the debris when Tower 2 fell. We did not know that and could not understand where all of that debris came from. It was just my friend Kern and I now. We were hugging but sad. We felt certain that most of our friends ahead of us died and we knew no one behind us. We came upon a post office several blocks away. We stopped and looked up. Our building, exactly where our office is (was), was engulfed in flame and smoke. A postal worker said that Tower 2 had fallen down. I looked again and sure enough it was gone. My heart was racing. We kept trying to call our families. I could not get in touch with my wife. Finally I got through to my parents. Relieved is not the word to explain their feelings. They got through to my wife, thank God, and let her know I was alive. We sat down. A girl on a bike offered us some water. Just as she took the cap off her bottle we heard a rumble. We looked up and our building, Tower 1 collapsed. I did not note the time but I am told it was 10:30am. We had been out less than 15 minutes. We were mourning our lost friends, particularly the one who stayed in the office as we were now sure that he had perished. We started walking towards Union Square. I was going to Beth Israel Medical Center to be looked at. We stopped to hear the President speaking on the radio. My phone rang. It was my wife. I think I fell to my knees crying when I heard her voice. Then she told me the most incredible thing. My partner who had stayed behind called her. He was alive and well. I guess we just lost him in the commotion. We started jumping and hugging and shouting. I told my wife that my brother had arranged for a hotel in midtown. He can be very resourceful in that way. I told her I would call her from there. My brother and I managed to get a gypsy cab to take us home to Westchester instead. I cried on my son and held my wife until I fell asleep. As it turns out my partner, the one who I thought had stayed behind, was behind us with Harry Ramos, our head trader. This is now second hand information. They came upon Victor, the heavyset man on the 53rd floor. They helped him. He could barely move. My partner bravely/stupidly tested the elevator on the 52nd floor. He rode it down to the sky lobby on 44. The doors opened, it was fine. He rode it back up and got Harry and Victor. I don't yet know if anyone else joined them. Once on 44 they made their way back into the stairwell. Someplace around the 39th to 36th floors they felt the same rumble I felt on the 3rd floor. It was 10am and Tower 2 was coming down. They had about 30 minutes to get out. Victor said he could no longer move. They offered to have him lean on them. He said he couldn't do it. My partner hollered at him to sit on his butt and schooch down the steps. He said he was not capable of doing it. Harry told my partner to go ahead of them. Harry had once had a heart attack and was worried about this mans heart. It was his nature to be this way. He was/is one of the kindest people I know. He would not leave a man behind. My partner went ahead and made it out. He said he was out maybe 10 minutes before the building came down. This means that Harry had maybe 25 minutes to move Victor 36 floors. I guess they moved 1 floor every 1.5 minutes. Just a guess. This means Harry was around the 20th floor when the building collapsed. As of now 12 of 13 people are accounted for. As of 6pm yesterday his wife had not heard from him. I fear that Harry is lost. However, a short while ago I heard that he may be alive. Apparently there is a web site with survivor names on it and his name appears there. Unfortunately, Ramos is not an uncommon name in New York. Pray for him and all those like him. With regards to the firemen heading upstairs, I realize that they were going up anyway. But, it hurts to know that I may have made them move quicker to find my friend. Rationally, I know this is not true and that I am not the responsible one. The responsible ones are in hiding somewhere on this planet and damn them for making me feel like this. But they should know that they failed in terrorizing us. We were calm. Those men and women that went up were heroes in the face of it all. They must have known what was going on and they did their jobs anyway. Ordinary people were heroes too. Today the images that people around the world equate with power and democracy are gone but "America" is not an image, it is a concept. That concept is only strengthened by our pulling together as a team. If you want to kill us, leave us alone because we will do it by ourselves. If you want to make us stronger, attack and we unite. This is the ultimate failure of terrorism against The United States and the ultimate price we pay to be free, to decide where we want to work, what we want to eat, and when & where we want to go on vacation. The very moment the first plane was hijacked, democracy won. -- Gaby --
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 19 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM troll, I think the point that both Greg and I were making is that brutality towards women is a pretty universal experience throughout the world, and is not unique to the Muslim world. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM Thanks, Gaby... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: GUEST,emily b Date: 19 Sep 01 - 07:38 PM Deda, Thanks for posting this harrowing account. I am in tears again, both at the horror of it and at the bravery. I'm not sure which makes me cry more, the horror or the heroism. Isn't terrible that we have to have one before the other. As for women withholding sex, I heard today from a friend that the first thing the Taliban does when they go into a village is to rape all the women. Does anyone know if this is true? So much for withholding... Then these women are considered "dirty" and if they don't kill themselves, they are killed by their husbands or sons. What a world they live in. At this rate, there won't be any Afghanis around with no women to bear the children. It is truly terrifying what has been and is being done in the name of religion, whatever brand. My jelly brains keep going back to the Terminator movies where the world is being taken over by machines or computers. There was no reasoning with these machines. Destruction was hard wired. These terrorists I think are the same. It's hard to imagine diplomacy ever working against madmen. This thread has helped me more than anything to process this tragedy. Thanks to one and all. Emily B |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:34 PM I've found this discussion very useful, in the absence of my wife who is now trying to thread her way back from a Minnosota national conference to Maine through the shambles of our air transport system. I alternate from patching into Mudcat, tearing a summer cottage apart and putting it back together again, music practice with Roll & Go, and CNN. I probably should do more checking in on nieces and nephews and finding out how well they're doing now that I'm reasonably back together again. What a miserable week! I'm both astounded by this clear evidence of man's ability to be inhumane and the ability of others to pull together. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:16 PM Carol, you may be right but there was no reason for Greg to attack Clifton for his statement as he did. "I've heard there is a saying among Moslem men that there are only two places for a wife, in the house, or in the ground. Brutal " does not call for a response of:"Were you born an ass or did it come over you slowly, by degrees?" Just my opinion of course. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:41 PM Greg: I have it from authoritative sources that the right answer is "by degrees, for both of you....". Regards, A. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:39 AM Greg F., I was simply relating something, I wasn't espousing anything here. I think the problem is in your brain and not in my post! Clifton |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:58 AM Thanks Troll my man !! S'why I put the "brutal" in there, but I guess it wasn't enough. Clifton |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM With some people you need a three-paragraph diatribe about whatever you are against or they miss the point entirely. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:51 AM Carol C, I quote, "the point that Greg and I were trying to make is that brutality towards women is a pretty universal experience,,, and is not unique to the Muslim world". I agree with that statement, but filling me in on some obscure Oklahoman law stating what size stick may be used to beat one's wife is kind of an odd way of saying it. Clifton
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Morticia Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:31 AM this says more than I can click here |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Fiolar Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:58 AM A few points worth mentioning. I learned in school that while man may hve been created in God's Image, the Creator also gave him "free will" that is, the ability to make his own decisions about things. So looking through some of the postings on site, it is useless asking where God is in all this. In regard to "retaliation" I should imagine that there must surely come a time when "enough is enough." If Hitler had been called to book for his actions before September 1939, there may well have been no second world war. Appeasment is only seen as a sign of weakness by many such monsters. Czechoslovakia which had one of the best weapons producing systems in Europe at the time was handed to him on a plate and the army forbidden to resist. Bin Laden should have been taken to task years ago. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: GUEST,Greg F. Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:24 AM Carol- The fact that it is an incredibly loutish and ignorant statement and entirely gratuitous, having nothing to do with any of the items under discussion, might have something to do with the point as well. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:41 AM Well, I feel better, finally, how are you? I seem to have gained hope that the response might actually be thought-out rather than knee-jerk. I can work again, which will be good, the catalog is due in a couple of weeks and I've done nothing about it lately... |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:01 AM I have ups and downs. Thanks for asking! I think I am a schizophrenic drosophelia!! LOL. A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:31 PM troll, I agree with you. I think it's possible to make a point without flaming.
Clifton53, I imagine it might come across as odd. I've never claimed that I'm not odd. However, it was the most diplomatic way I was able to come up with at the time to tell you that relating that story at this particular time might be less than a good idea, in light of the amount of violence that Muslims are being targeted with as a result of events last Tuesday. As far as being odd is concerned, I don't think that aspect of my personality is going to change any time soon. Sorry. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:34 PM By the way, Rumsfeld just said that the name of the military operation will probably be changed from "Infinite Justice" to something else. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Clifton53 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:50 PM Ignorant? Loutish? Coming from you Greg I suppose those are compliments. Considering your high minded dysenteric posts it is small wonder. I find it laughable that you would have a problem with someone being offensive. Clifton |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: DougR Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:22 PM Ah, Clifton53, you have to accept that my old friend, Greg F. feels he has to say something, even if he has nothing to say. :>) DougR |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM I was feeling a little bit hopeful until I saw the little banner at the bottom of my television screen a few minutes ago saying that Bush has rejected the Afghani Muslim clerics' offer to expell Bin Ladin from Afghanistan. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:06 PM Ok. I spoke too soon. Apparently, the clerics have said they would be willing to 'ask' Bin Laden to leave, and the US has said that's not good enough. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM Excuse me, but they did not offewr to expell him. They decided to ask him to voluntarily depart. That's a conciliatory message. Bush is asking for conciliatory ACTS. Not messages. The reason this is necessary is because the situation is one in which the communication of those who have participated in the attacks, directly or indirectly, is demonstrably unvaluable, false, deceptive, treacherous, and useless in real terms. What has happened in real terms is savage action against humans. Only real-world acts count in this kind of a scenario. I am sorry if this seems extreme, but it is the ground truth of the situation. "We will ask him to leave of his own free will" is a much pussier message than "We have kicked him out of Afghanistan". If they are serious, it will become "We are handing him over to the United States for trial tonight at 5:00 PM." This pussyfooting around with "He was a guest, a visitor, yadda yadda" is the kind of smoke and mirrors we no longer have time to entertain. A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:14 PM Amos. Read my last post. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:21 PM Cross posted, Carol. Sorry. A |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM No problem, Amos. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: heric Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM Translated segments of what the clerics said: http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/20/ret.cleric.statement/ |
Subject: Dispelling Rumors From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM The following may be of value for tracking down false stories: I notice that you cited the snopes.com/Urban Legends site to dispel and clarify the rumours about the CNN-using-old-Palestinian-footage story. There is more explanation of the "radio blacklist" story, there, too. You would do a great service by circulating the Web address for the special Urban Legends page devoted just to terrorist attack-related stories. (Every time I get that freaking Nostradamus thingy forwarded to me, I send back this address ...) http://www.snopes.com/info/rumors.htm Regards, Amos |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:42 PM In other news: http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/19/w war19.xml US 'lacks knowledge to launch land war' By Ahmed Rashid in Lahore Daily Telegraph - London (Filed: 19/09/2001) AMERICAN military action against Afghanistan is unlikely to begin for another four to five weeks because of Washington's lack of knowledge and intelligence about the situation, Western sources said yesterday. European diplomats with experience of the region are urging America to limit its military campaign and restrict the use of land forces to avoid getting them bogged down in Afghanistan. "The US armed forces do not have a single soldier or officer who speaks Pushtu [the principal language of the Taliban]," said a senior Western military official. "They will have to first hire hundreds of Pushtu speakers. That shows how much they lack on the ground for this upcoming battle in Afghanistan." Pushtu, or Pashto, is the language of the Pathans and of the Taliban, who come from southern Afghanistan. Although the US army has people who speak Farsi, or Persian, is also extensively spoken in central and northern Afghanistan, bin Laden is hiding among Pushtu-speaking Afghans. According to authoritative reports, before the current crisis the CIA had no agents on the ground inside Afghanistan, and the State Department has no high level contacts with the anti-Taliban forces in northern Afghanistan. The lack of intelligence stems from Washington's decision effectively to ignore developments in Afghanistan from 1989 after Moscow withdrew its forces. Its only major intelligence source is satellite imagery, which cannot clearly differentiate between Taliban and Arab fighters nor between fighters and civilians. America is expected therefore to rely on intelligence provided by Afghanistan's neighbours and other allies such as Britain which will take time to collate and evaluate. The key to obtaining intelligence on Taliban and bin Laden troop movements and their whereabouts is the degree to which Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, which has been the principal backer of the Taliban, will co-operate with the CIA. President Pervaiz Musharraf of Pakistan has pledged full co-operation, but with the lack of trust between the ISI and the CIA, Pakistan may well limit what it passes over. European governments closely allied to America are trying to influence decision-making in the Pentagon to make Washington aware of the dangers of sending large numbers of ground forces into Afghanistan. "The danger is that Washington may be in an overkill mode, without realising the complexities of Afghanistan and the potential to destabilise the region," said a European diplomat. European defence experts and military attaches hope that America does not attempt an invasion of Afghanistan. British and Soviet invasions were defeated by Afghan guerrilla fighters in the 19th and 20th centuries. Instead America is hoping to establish military bases in Pakistan and Central Asia. From there, special forces could attack specific targets inside Afghanistan, eliminate their opponents and then return to their bases after a few days. US forces in Pakistan would be based along the border with Afghanistan in Baluchistan and the North-West Frontier Province, which is just 15 minutes' flying time for troop-carrying helicopters to reach many of bin Laden's bases. US special forces rather than satellite imagery would be used inside Afghanistan to guide aerial and missile strikes, the main American weapon to break up Taliban and Arab groups. The bulk of the war effort is expected to be directed at four provinces in southern Afghanistan - Kandahar, Helmand, Herat and Uruzgun - where the Taliban leadership and bin Laden will try to hide. "There will be absolutely no point in bombing the cities because they will be evacuated by the time the war starts and the cities are pretty much devastated already," said a European official. "The US may also try to capture an airfield inside Afghanistan and use it as a bridgehead for attacks in the interior of the country. But securing an airfield will mean committing some 20,000 troops just to guard the outer perimeter, which is high risk." At the same time America will have to enlist Afghans, and arm and fund them to go after the Taliban in the ravines and valleys of the mountainous and desert terrain. In northern Afghanistan the anti-Taliban United Front has already pledged 15,000 fighters to the US-led alliance. If it is given American air cover, its forces could quickly capture the major cities in the north. However, its forces have little presence in the Pathan belt in the south and it is here that the main war will be fought. -- "I want to know as a member of the intelligence community how the fuck we didn't see this happening." NSA Employee Sept 11 2001 _______________________________________________________ Regards, Amos |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM What I get reminded of in all this is the way the First World War started - a terrorist atrocity by an organisation associated with another country, demands on that country which weren't accepted adequately enough, or quickly enough, and the system of alliances lumbered into action, and the war started.
The one thing in all this that we can be thankful for is that it didn't happen during the Cold War, or I think we'd probably all be dead by now.
And I hope so much that the people making the decisions are making some effort to get inside the mind of the kind of fanaticism they are up against. Yes it seems pretty likely that Osima Bin Laden is behind all this - but evidence can be faked, and it would have been easy enough to book places on planes using names from Saudi Arabia and Yemen and so forth.
But whether he is in fact the mastermind behind this, or merely an admiring spectator, it seems pretty clear that what he would most wish is conflict between the Islamic World and the rest. If his own death will achieve that, I think it is pretty clear that he would welcome it. It wouldn't be a punishment but a reward.
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Kim C Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:02 PM Back in the old days, the Army hired Indian scouts who "spoke the language." And I believe I said before, that this situation is not unlike fighting the Indians. We're dealing with people of a different culture, who speak a different language, who don't give a crap about all our fancy-dancy technological advances. Somewhere along the line, they are going to have to hire informants who can infiltrate these groups. And if it means dealing with some questionable people, then that's what it means. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Greg F. Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:18 PM Clifton, I don't give a fart in a high wind if you want to be offensive to me personally or not- knock yerself out, bud. But being offensive to a whole segment of the world population by repeating that assinine quote is acting like an ass. Um, Doug, you mean like those little "SIGH" things & similar pithy bits of witty reparteé you constantly post????? ;>) |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: DougR Date: 20 Sep 01 - 07:30 PM Yeah, Greg, you got it! See, I knew I could make you smile! :>) DougR |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:24 PM |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: blt Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:38 AM Thanks for posting the link to the debunking rumors site, I had heard (and believed) the one about CNN airing old footage of Palestinians celebrating. Oh well, it's so tempting to doubt that corporate media will provide accurate information sometimes. In Portland, Oregon, USA, I have been distracted by my job in a psychiatric crisis unit and by my second job in a women's treatment center. Today the women were distraught to learn that the President was sending troops "somewhere," although most of them had no idea where. Here are women, crack and heroin addicts with hardly anything to their name, and they want to have a canned food drive "for the soldiers." I wonder what will happen to social services in this country, or health care in general. Nothing like war mongering to take the attention off the painful day to day aspects of life in the good old US of A. blt |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Lanfranc Date: 21 Sep 01 - 04:56 AM I am seriously concerned when leaders speak of justice when they mean retribution. I am appalled that so many hold life so cheap, whether it be their own or other fellow men. I despair when religions, which, as far as I am aware, all purport to promote morality and brotherly love, are perverted by their followers to justify prejudice, lawlessness and murder. "Infinite Justice" my foot - what we need at the moment is Infinite Wisdom! Let's hope we find some - can't say it looks very hopeful. Alan
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:34 AM One or two big explosions in Toulouse (shopping mall and/or chemical plant), several dead, more than 100 injured, shooting at Amsterdam airport. Coincidences? I very much hope so. But just that I consider an alternative interpretation says something about the present times. I hope it is too early to start a EUROPEAN ATTACK, Part I thread. Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:54 AM apparently accidental says the police. Good, say I (meaning not for the dead and injured) Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:06 AM I note that they are thinking of changig the "Infinite Justice" name, because it is seen by Muslims as blasphemous. Actually, I'd have thought it'd be seen as blasphemous by most Christians or Jews as well. And other religions.
I truly don't want to start a dispute at this time about the ins and outs of that and the significance of words and whether that matters or not. But it does get worrying when the people in charge make such elementary misjudgements. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Fiolar Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM Came across this extract from a poem by Rudyard Kipling. Relevant? "And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, 'A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.'" |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:03 AM I have heard that the Taliban has said they won't hand over Osama bin Ladin without evidence. That actually sounds reasonable to me. So let's go ahead and show them the evidence. But I'm afraid we won't. Instead, it seems that the US has adopted a stance of "Hand him over or we'll bomb you. Never mind the evidence," and "If you're not with us, you're against us." The idea of guilt without evidence is foreign to the American system of justice. Let's not abandon all our legal and ethical principles to get this guy. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM And if we show them the evidence and they say; "That's not good enough"? What then? troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Greg F. Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:47 AM Its better than that. If they DO hand him over, guess what Dubya's Boys have agreed to do- after all this "evil empire" crap? Recognize the Taliban as the legit. government of Afghanistan. That says a GREAT deal about U.S. "situational ethics". |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:59 AM "And if we show them the evidence and they say, 'That's not good enough?'" THEN we MAY have justification to use force. But definitely NOT UNTIL THEN. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: sophocleese Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM Troll, we deal with that situation when it comes up, not assume that it will happen that way. So why did this happen when we had the son of Bush as the American President and not Clinton? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Charley Noble Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM I think we all agree that the "terrorists" can't be bargained with, assuming we've identified the right ones. I'm not as sure about those who provide them shelter, aid and comfort. I do wish the Bush administration would make every effort to isolate the terrorists from their host communities before implementing gratuitous military action. I'm perplexed that the Bush administration is committing itself to also rooting out all other terrorist groups who have a potential for world wide violence. What committee is going to make all those judgment calls, and I wonder what god they'll be facing come judgment day. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:23 AM Clinton knew where bin Laden was in Dec. 2000 and opted NOT to take him out. As for the WTC atrocity, the best guess is that it was some 5 years in the planning and execution. The terrorists could have had NO way of knowing who the president would be at that time and it didn't matter. when they were ready to strike, they did so. It would have been the same if the president were Gore, Bush, Nader or anyone. Greg, political expediency is the rule of the day. To date only Iraq has recognized the Taliban as legitimate, if I have my facts straight. US recognition would be a major coup. There are few universal moral or ethical stances; nearly all are dependant on circumstances. A case in point: canibalism. We abhore it but among the Asmat of New Guinea it is the normal and moral thing to eat your enemy. The situation dictates. Have fun with this one. troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:39 AM Okay.......Eat me Troll. Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: GUEST,eileenlwm Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:35 AM Jane Reno spoke in our area last night; she was quoted on a local radio station as saying she was quite surprised by the attack. Considering her responsibilities when she was attorney general, her surprise shows what was happening with intelligence and preparedness during the Clinton years -- in other words: Drop a bomb, talk a lot and change the subject. Even though the media concentrate on military plans, this administration seems capable of planning a many-pronged attack, including stopping the funds. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Paul from Hull Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM well, rather than perpetuating some of the other threads, which as people have rightly pointed out is cluttering up the site...for which I've been as guilty of as anyone, by replying, I post this here, in the hopes that the company responsibl for this product gets as little custom as possible... http://216.142.45.28/Shirt/order.htm (not meaning to offend anyone, of course... I would hate anyone to think I was discouraging people from flying/wearing their flag, I just mean the 'Infinite Justice' slogan.....) |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM Are you edible spaw? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Amos Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:03 PM Wear your PATRIOTISM proudly on your chest! |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: CarolC Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:46 PM This morning, while I was in a state somewhere between sleep and waking, I saw a bunch of glass balls sitting on something like a table. My attention became focused upon one particular ball. I saw the ball begin to roll. It rolled off of the table and fell to the floor, smashing to pieces. At the same time, I heard the word, "Pakistan". |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM To date only Iraq has recognized the Taliban as legitimate, if I have my facts straight.
Well you haven't actually, Troll. In fact the Taliban has been recognised by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. I think that is the lot. It would be a bit surprising if Iraq recognised them - they are poles apart ideologically, though necesssity makes strange bedfellow.
Butbthe fcat that the only countries sthat appear to have recoignised the Taliban appeasr to be allies of the USA is just one of the paradoxical things about this. On the other hand the Iranian government detests them. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:30 PM Here's the text of what that Afghan clerics council said, from today's Guardian (London):
'Osama bin Laden should choose another place'
Friday September 21, 2001 The following are extracts from the text of a verdict issued by the grand council of ulema, or clerics, yesterday, recommending to the ruling Taliban that they persuade Osama bin Laden to leave Afghanistan.
"The nation of Afghanistan has always referred major issues to honourable ulema for a solution. The honourable ulema have always endeavoured to find a solution to problems
"... The ulema of Afghanistan, in the face of their heavy responsibility for the solution of the problems, and in the light of Islam's holy religion, endorse the following decision and verdict: The ulema of Afghanistan voice their sadness over deaths in America and hope that America does not attack Afghanistan, exerts complete patience and accuracy and investigates the issue in its totality.
"The ulema of Afghanistan demand of America that the United Nations and the Organisation of Islamic Conference [OIC] investigate independently and precisely the recent events to clarify the reality and prevent harassment of innocent people.
"The UN and the OIC deliberate over the utterances of America's president who has said that this war will be a crusade. This news has hurt the feelings of Muslims and has posed a major threat to the world.
"In order to avoid the current tumult and also similar suspicion in the future, the high council of the honourable ulema recommends to the Islamic Emirate to persuade Osama bin Laden to leave Afghanistan whenever possible ... and choose another place for himself.
"If, in the light of the above-mentioned decisions, America does not agree and attacks Afghanistan, then, in the light of the sacred Sharia [law] the following verdict is presented: All books of our religious persuasion say that if infidels attack the soil of a Muslim country, jihad [holy war] becomes an order for the Muslims of that country...
"If infidels invade an Islamic country and that country does not have the ability to defend itself, jihad becomes an obligation on all Muslims.
"If infidels attack the soil of Muslims they can, in time of need, ask Islamic and non-Islamic governments for help...
"If at the time of America's attack, any Muslim, whether an Afghan or non-Afghan, cooperates with infidels, becomes an accomplice or a spy, that person is also punishable with death like the foreign invaders."
It reads like a compromise between one lot who wanted a conciliatory response, and one who wanted a belligerent response. As you'd expect, I suppose. If you ever read hoe the First World War started after the Assassination of the Arch-Duke in Sarajevo by a pro-Serbian terrorist, you'll get a feeling of deja vu around here. |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Troll Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:32 PM Thanks Kevin. I really wasn't sure. 'Spaw, your post can be taken several ways. I think I'll answer it this way: Sorry 'Spaw. I prefer my guys to be a little more butch. love and kisses, troll |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM Spaw is a guy - makes him inedible. I'm with you troll. Peace - Steve |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: The Shambles Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:45 PM Deja Vu? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: The Shambles Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:50 PM Did I hear Mr Bush say that? "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" Do we know yet what exactly we are expected to be with? |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM Do we know yet what exactly we are expected to be with? Roger, that is exactly what for me is the biggest worry. I am not so naive as to think blood will not be shed and frankly, to root out terrorist organizations, some will be obviously necessary. I get disheartened though with lines where we are "waving the big dick" as Peg said the other day, but I am offset with encouragement when the talk is of using ALL the tools and methods we can to do the job. This is indeed "not my Father's war" and and I continue to believe that the administration and Congress are not going to rashly squander the lives of young people. At the same time, I want to hear more of what is expecting of other countries........more than "with us or agin' us"....... What are we really expecting from the UK, Germany, France.....or Russia and China........or Saudi Arabia. The talk is turning in that direction and I anxiously await as you do. Sharing of Human Intelligence, banking relationships.......The pressure can be applied to make the blood flow less if we are wise enough to use it. Spaw |
Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM Saudi Arabia is of course one of the tiny handful of countries (handful is an exageration) that recognises the Taliban, and the place the people identified as suiciders on those planes come from, and where Bin Ladin came from, and the type of Islamic Fundamentalism identified with his organisation - "fundamentalism of the Right" has its roots.
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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**Part 9,one week later From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:25 PM New Thread #10Spaw These are the threads in the series on the World Trade Center Tragedy. Please post only to the most recent thread in the series. The others are closed because they are too long for some browsers to open. There is no need to "refresh" old threads in this series. These links should be sufficient. Thanks -Joe Offer-
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