BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:17 PM

When it comes to having multiple species dealing with each other, wit the differences worked out and key elements in the plot, the man is James White with his Sector General series - now that really could be fun as a TV series, if they could ever get the special effects right.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:24 AM

Octopoids are fine, they have a head, it is as far from their locomotory stuff as it can be, and they have symmetry. But you need bones to work against/with gravity outside of water... and hi there, Matt!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: MMario
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 04:25 PM

I like the various SF novels that are done in alien cultures - Hal Clement especially I think is excellent at creating a mind-set that is familiar enough that you can empathize with the characters - but odd enough that it trips you up occasionally.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

Speaking of science-fiction, if some of my above post misses an "of" or two and says "body's" when I meant "bodies," it's because I'm trying out a new voice-recognition program (no typing -- just dictate) and the program and I are still getting used to each other.

("Open the pod bay doors, Hal.")

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM

Lepus Rex, I remember that episode. Perhaps a bit far-fetched, but an interesting theory -- maybe even true, how do we know? But Aaargh? Yuck? Awful?

Some years back I was a regular attendee at the Norwescons (Northwest science-fiction conventions), and at one of them, Orson Scott Card conducted a workshop on "constructing an intelligent alien species." Most interesting. He had the audience call out species that, for convenience sake (we had only an hour), might be analogous to those here on earth. After a few minutes of brain-storming, we settled on "amphibians."

"Okay," said Card, "what is the life-cycle of amphibians?" Eggs laid in a pool of water, tadpole stage, metamorphosis into an adult, etc. Now we have to decide what kind of an amphibian it is: with tail (salamanders) or without tail (toads and frogs). Of course, our critter is fairly large compared to terrestrial amphibians. Why? Because it needs a brain large enough to accommodate a sufficient number of neurons (or a similar neurological-type mechanism) to allow intelligence to be possible. Let us assume for convenience (the workshop is only one hour) that our critter is endowed with bilateral symmetry. Being fairly sizable, this renders locomotion by hopping very energy-inefficient, unless we decide that they move about something like kangaroos. If this were the case (or even if not), eyes mounted fairly high and on the front of the body (i.e. in the head) and positioned to facilitate binocular vision would be a survival factor. Less chance of them making a forward bound only to bat their little snoots against a tree trunk, rock, or another of their species also in mid-bound. The forepaws of frogs and salamanders could easily evolve opposing digits, making grasping, hence tool-using, possible.

This species requires water. This tells us something about the planet they evolved on. The orbit of the planet must be at the right distance from its star to be in the "temperate zone," allowing water to remain in its liquid state (which, of course, presupposes that water exists there in the first place). Hmm. Looks like our planet is going to be pretty earth-like. Well, can't be helped.

Now, what kind of religion does our amphibians species have? Since water is so absolutely essential to their existence— indeed, each adult individual emerges from water— it's probably going to loom large in their belief system. Does their belief system include some kind of deity? If so, what do they believe it's attributes to be? What are the taboos of their religion (this could be very important in determining the nature of their social structure)?

What is the nature of their social structure. How complex? Are they tribal, or do they live in cities? What is the nature of their cities? Proximity to body's water would seem to be a requirement. What would their cities look like? What is their system government? Their economic system? Do they have space travel, or are they technologically unsophisticated?

And on and on we go. There are lots of assumptions here, with many other possibilities, but this is just one example. This kind of thing is interactive. The demands of our story requires certain characteristics of the species we're inventing, and the characteristics of the species in turn affects the course of our story. But working it out this way is well worth the trouble because it makes for much more interesting and plausible stories.

Considering the restraints of time and budget that most television and motion picture studios work under, it's a heck of a lot easier to requisition a bunch of actors from Central Casting and glue gobs of sponge rubber to their noses and foreheads then it is to cook up an alien species from scratch. I do wish they would be a bit more creative, but then, what are you going to do?

Any aspiring science-fiction writer interested in pursuing this kind of thing might look at Aliens and Alien Societies: a Writer's Guide to Creating Extraterrestrial Life-forms by Stanley Schmidt (editor of "Analog"); Writers Digest Books; Cincinnati, Ohio, 1995.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:05 AM

Having both respiration & digestion share the same 'bits' is a REALLY daft idea...

A mouth adjacent to the stomach, & breathing orifices close to the lungs would make FAR more sense...

....as would having the eyes set much further apart on the head.....

We Humans are VERY inefficient....

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 11:01 AM

Me as well! It's my favorite DS9 episode ever...always makes me cry.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Trevor
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:46 AM

I've had to giggle occasionally at some of the garbage in the various ST manifestations, but I've also got to say that one of the most moving and poignant bits of tellie I've ever seen was the DS9 episode 'The Visitor'. I think the last time a TV programme made me grizzle was 'The Silver Sword' in the 1950s, but this one had me reaching for the tissues.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

There was a really funny line from "The Chase" where Gul Ocett says the puzzle may be nothing more than a recipe for biscuits. Nu'Daq says "If it's biscuits you want, I'll be sure to give you my mother's recipe".

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:18 AM

And if you were an octopoid with a brain safely in the middle of the body and a few spare eyes scattered strategically around your body you'd think that was the only natural and sensible way to organise a body's body, Mrrzy.

Galaxy Quest got round this rather neatly by having the humanoid bodies being just an illusory appearance to improve relations between with Earthlings (and they really looked rather like the characters I described in the last paragraph.)

And Jar Jar Binks was humanoid Grab - if he hadn't been there wouldn't have been all that fuss. (I liked him as it happened, and thought the fuss was phony and misdirected.)

Noone has mentioned my favourite version of Star Trek - Pigs in Space from the Muppets. "Star Trekking across the Universe..."

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:32 AM

But, why WOULDN'T aliens be humanoid? There is nothing odd about having sense organs (eyes, ears etc), nothing odd about having an organ to integrate and use the information from the senses (brain), and nothing odd about having most of your sense organs clustered near the integration organ (a head), nor about having that cluster positioned to best utilize the sense organs (a head that is high above the ground rather than below your butt or something if you have vision). There is nothing odd about having manipulatory appendages that are closer to the sense cluster than your locomotory appendages (walking with your feet rather than your hands), and that leaves you basically with humanoids or centauroids... since symmetry is a lot easier to deal with evolutionarily (do this here, and do the same thing over there, rather than do this here, and do that there). I'm surprised there aren't more centauroid aliens, but humanoids require fewer special effects. The only thing left to play with is what the senses are (why don't more aliens have senses we don't, like sharks and electricity, or even something we'd have to evolve a whole new vocabulary for?) and how those senses constrain cognition...

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Grab
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM

Gloredhel, I didn't say it wasn't fun, I just said it wasn't very good. :-)

Clinton, tell your geek to hide better! ;-) Yeah, some starbase action, but they always seemed to find new red-shirts from somewhere. My theory is that they're like the Star Wars stormtroopers - they're cloned, so losing a few doesn't matter too much, you can always grow some more.

The persistently-humanoid look is annoying, but I guess we'll need to wait until FX and synthespians are better (anyone want Jar Jar Binks as the next Enterprise crewman? thought not. ;-). And not just humanoid, but human-sized as well. I read one ST book where a couple of the major characters were non-human - one was a giant and the other was a panthery kind of thing. A Star Trek with that kind of hook would be more believable. I guess I'd just rather sit in the Star Wars cantina than in Ten-Forward...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:15 PM

OK... I found a synopsis of the Star Trek episode that explains all the humanoid 'aliens' here. The episode was called "The Chase," and it was fucking awful... Here it is, for those who care... ;)

"Picard finds himself in a race with Cardassians, Klingons and Romulans to solve a four-billion-year old genetic puzzle.

Picard is surprised when Professor Richard Galen, his old archaeology professor whom he hasn't seen in 30 years, pays a visit to the U.S.S. Enterprise and asks Picard to accompany him on a mission. The renowned archaeologist has made a discovery so profound, the ultimate findings could reverberate throughout the galaxy, but will only reveal them to Picard if he agrees to join him on a lengthy, possibly year-long expedition. The offer is tempting to Picard, who once intended to make archaeology his life's work, but he chooses duty instead, prompting the professor to angrily leave the starship. Soon afterward, the Enterprise receives a distress call - Galen's ship is under attack by Yridians. After inadvertently destroying the attacking vessel with a phaser hit the crew is able to transport Galen aboard, but not before he takes a disruptor blast in the chest at point-blank range. Picard is at the professor's side when he dies in Sickbay, taking his secret with him to the grave.

Attempting to learn why Galen was attacked, the crew finds 19 strange blocks of numbers stored in his computer's memory. Picard decides the answer might be on Ruah IV, part of an unexplored star system Galen visited just before first contacting the Enterprise - and sets course despite the fact that he is due at a diplomatic conference elsewhere. When the search yields nothing, he opts to continue the investigation on Indri VIII, Galen's next intended destination.

Upon their arrival at Indri VIII, the crew finds every microbe of life on the planet is being destroyed before their eyes, leading Picard to believe that Professor Galen's number blocks may have something to do with organic matter. Picard and Dr. Crusher study the blocks, and learn that they are mathematical representations of DNA fragments, each from a different life form from 19 different worlds scattered across the quadrant. Picard decides to set a course for Loren III, the only planet capable of sustaining life in the area to which the professor was referring. There, they encounter two Cardassian war vessels and a Klingon attack cruiser, each on the trail of the same discovery.

After a tense initial confrontation, Picard is able to get the Cardassian Captain, Gul Ocett, and the Klingon captain, Nu'Daq, to share their respective organic matter samples and agree to solve the puzzle together. They soon learn that they are still missing one DNA fragment, but Picard initiates an elaborate computer search, which soon reveals the location where the missing DNA may be found. However, when the findings are announced, the Cardassian captain dematerializes and her ship fires on both the Enterprise and the Klingon vessel.

Picard sets course for the Vilmoran system, accompanied by the Klingon captain, whose ship was crippled in the attack. Soon after they arrive, the Cardassian captain appears on the planet, as do a group of Romulans, who have been following all along in a cloaked vessel. Gul Ocett threatens to destroy the few samples that still remain on the barren world rather than work with the Romulans, and as the Klingon leader joins the face-off, Picard and Beverly quietly retrieve a partially fossilized sample. Unnoticed, they feed the sample into their tricorder. The mysterious program is activated, and a humanoid hologram recorded billions of years ago appears before them. The hologram tells the surprised group that her race found itself alone in their travels of the galaxy. The genetic puzzle was created in hopes that those races would come together in cooperation and fellowship in order to activate the message. The humanoid tells the group that they all come from this common seed, and implores them to remember this bond. The message fades, leaving Nu'Daq and Gul Ocett unbelieving, and repulsed at the mere thought of having anything in common. The groups return to their vessels."

So, basically, they discover the origin of all life on Earth and on most other planets, say "Hey, that's kind of neat," and fly off. It's never mentioned again. Ever.

And THAT'S suposed to be the reason why almost every race on every planet is a boring old humanoid, and why they can all interbreed, etc. Aaargh. Yuck. Awful. This episode must be destroyed!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:01 PM

Science fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon once said, "Ninety percent of science fiction is pure crap! But then, ninety percent of everything is pure crap!"

Yup.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Gloredhel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM

Graham--

Brits, and a few of us Americans, don't necessarily like Doctor Who or other scifi shows because they have good plots or good actors or good effects. They may have that, but even if they don't, we watch because it's fun. One of my friends claims that too much Doctor Who will rot your brain, but watches anyway. Some scifi has to have merit, but some of it also has to be crap. Would you want to read Shakespeare and Byron all the time? Of course not. You'd want to read something less weighty now and then. To paraphrase Longfellow, "The world loves the spice of occasional idiocy."

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: X-Ed
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:40 PM

I must admit, some of teh weakest episodes are my favorite. "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield" and "The Omega Glory", "Spock's Brain", great stuff! Fun. Before anyone trashes the original,just remeber what was before it. Space Cadet, etc. The ONLY shows with substance was TZ & OL. No good ones prodcued about space travel. Ya, Gene wasn't teh best writer. But his concept was awsome. The same can be said for Gerorge Lucas. They needed help. HArlan is a bitter ol' man and King, as well as Harlan might be jealous of ST's success.

Mrrzy, right on!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:59 PM

"And for being on a 5-year mission, they never seemed too bothered about the number of dead bodies they racked up. At that kind of rate, the ship'd be empty by the end of the first 6 months!"

It's not like they never put into a starbase over the span of those 5 years!!! Every month or so over those 5 years, they put in for shore leave, refueling, repairs, crew reassignments... All the same stuff that any other navy ship does...

Sorry... my geek is showing isn't it!

LOL!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Grab
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:54 PM

Clinton, I'm afraid I second the quote from Harlan Ellison, repeated by Stephen King in Danse Macabre: "Unfortunately, Roddenberry can't write for stale owl poop".

Come on, the first series is a category of "God/superbeing exists, but is mad/dangerous", "computer is beaten by contradictions", "you can't trust a commie (sorry, Klingon/Romulan/anyone wearing heavy makeup)", "crew are trapped and must revert to basic survival skills", "monster can't be killed, but turns out just to want to make friends". And for being on a 5-year mission, they never seemed too bothered about the number of dead bodies they racked up. At that kind of rate, the ship'd be empty by the end of the first 6 months! :-)

And the scripts, acting and plotlines weren't really that good anyway. It's like all Brits rave about Doctor Who, but if you actually watch the reruns, you realise that they weren't really that good, it was just that you were like 10 or 15 at the time! ;-) And the TNG and further series only came out bcos the films 1 & 2 were successful (I won't say good ;-) - if they'd crashed and burned then I doubt we'd be talking about this today, except in the same way we'd talk about "I dream of Jeannie" or "Battlestar Galactica".

Like I remember the A-Team and Knight Rider as being fun, but I wouldn't say they were any good. (Although Airwolf _was_ pretty good, and like all good stuff it got canned after the second or third series. Ho hum. Maybe we can do a Star Trek on that and get a decent film or two...)

I will second you on the TNG movies though. Unfortunately the same is true of all the OS movies, except maybe for Wrath of Khan, and that only bcos they got Ricardo Montalban and some reasonable F/X.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

Actually, if you listen to the women who were wearing those outfits back in the 60's, it was their expression of newfound freedom, look, I can wear almost nothing and I'm still a person, so there! Notr exploitation by men, but exultation by women. Vive la difference!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:00 PM

Of course Erroll Flynn used to wear tights. Mind that definitely wouldn't have suited Kirk.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: X-Ed
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:54 AM

Personnaly I loved "Electra Woman & Dina Girl".

To comment on the whining about the female costumes. Gene Roddenberry "LOVED" women! Busty ones at that. Working along side womenz' in tight clothes was part of this vision. He figured they had it in Hollywierd, why not the military.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: John P
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

Red Dwarf is high on my list of best science fiction series ever. That is, if something so low can be described as high . . .

JP

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

Well, obviously the greatest Science Fiction TV series was The Clangers - Iron Chicken, Soup Dragon and all.

But I doubt that ever made it across the Atlantic.

Pesonally I like all the Star Trek incarnations, more especially the Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. Rubbish a lot of the time, but enjoyable rubbish, and just occasionally a lot more than rubbish. And I'll watch the new one too.

Edmund Hamilton's Star Kings - yes I remember that Don - great stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM

Uh . . . "The Great Bird of the Galaxy." (David Gerrold, The Making of Star Trek)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:27 PM

That's "The Great Bird of The Universe".

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:09 AM

Harlin Ellison wrote 1 original Star trek Episode.. the only one to win an award... a hugo or something... "City At The Edge Of Forever" aka Edith Keelor Must Die... With Joan Collins... Possibly the best episode of any star trek series, and likley my 2nd favorite of all time...

and what they did to Harlins story, it's no wonder he hated it, and all things star trekian, massed produced (have you seen how many star Wars, Forgotten Realms, junk there is in the speculative fiction section of any book store these days???)

When Harlin sings "If I had a Hammer", he sings, "There'd be no more trekies"!

My 'take' on star trek??

Well, the original series kicks ass in a huyge way, but should ahve never been renewed for the last year... Com'on?!?!? The Komes and the Yangs??? Let This Be Your Last Battlefield?!?!?!?! Absolute crap!!! The movies have run more hot than cold...

TNG.. TNG ran for 7 years, and in that 7 years produced amybe 1 or 2 full seasons of good, entertaining, original episodes... I mean, the very 2nd episode was a blatant rip off of a sorta lame, but delightfully tongue in cheek OS episode... How good could TNG get?!?! The TNG movies have been absolute garbage...

SS9... A damn soap opera set in the Star Trek universe... it's no wonder they had to wait for Gene to kick off before they could make it!! See my comment above about "To boldly STAY, where..." That said, possibly my favorite Star Trek ever is DS9's Return To Tribbles.. mostly on the tech merits of blending the old footage with the new characters! Absolutely delightful!

Voyagenerd... Started off as a neat idea and failled misserably in the implimentation... after about the 3rd series I pretty much gave up on it, and only tuned in hoping to see the ship blown up and the crew killed off... That and Jeri Ryan has a NICE RACK!! But she's no where near as cute as Jennifer Lien (Kes)... And can someone please get the captain a mint or something to help her clear her throat?!?!?!?!?!

Star Trek Shmar Smeck! The great bired in the sky has passed and the idiots left behind besmirch his name by tacking it onto the junk they produce...

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Fiolar
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM

McGrath: How about the whole Tory shadow cabinet with the exception of John Redmond who hasn't been included. Michael "Somthing of the Night" Howard would make a great alien. Hmm, perhaps he is one already. Remember "Men in Black" in the headquarters?

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:43 AM

Explanation of why the others are humanoid, if I remember rightly, is that given similar conditions (ie class 'M' planet) evolution will behave in a similar way. QED. I thought it was a load of old b"££"$%^ but I'm no scientist (or script writer for that matter!).

Anyway, you've all got it wrong. Best Sci-Fi series must be Blakes 7 and Doctor Who - coz their British. But the ultimate is, of course, Fireball XL5!

;-)

Cheers

Dave the short but vaguely humanoid creature.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:30 AM

To my mind the worst TNG episode was the one where one people provides drugs and the other one takes them, and this was so horrible that the Prime Directive had to be immediately violated, horror and shock! I mean, talk about pandering. But I apparently missed the one where they "explain" why so many species are hominids... I kinda liked Larry Niven on that one, personally!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: John P
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:09 AM

What is it with the women's clothes? I can forgive the first series, it was made in benighted times. But on NG it took them years to get Troi into a uniform, and by then we all knew better. Did she really do her job better with her boobs hanging out? DS9 was better -- everyone wore uniforms, just like the guys. But then 7 of 9 shows up on Voyager. The actress does a fairly good job of playing an interesting role, and the whole thing is ruined by a costume (including high heels!) that 7 of 9 would have immediately rejected as "impractical".

In general, NG and DS9 have been my favorite series. Kirk was just too much to take in the original series, the Great White Dick out playing space cowboy. In NG, the captain was much more believable, as well as being a much better actor. He came across as the executive of a group of professionals, unlike in the original series where Scot would routinely lie to Kirk about what was possible and the doctor would stop in moments of crisis to deliver homilies and wonder what life was all about. Picard rarely actually placed himself in danger by leaving the ship, and certainly the entire upper command team was never gone at the same time. I guess I prefer a dose of reality with my fantasy. Spock was, for the time, an interesting character that successfully imprinted itself on the collective unconscious of our society.

Deep Space Nine was more enjoyable because the people actually changed and grew over time. That didn't happen much in any of the other series. Also, several episodes ended on a bleak note, instead of everything always getting wrapped up in a happy little conclusion at the end of the hour. I also liked the greater ethnic diversity that has been mentioned before.

Voyager was, as far as I can tell, a return to the original series in most ways. I think Janeway must have taken Kirk as her mentor when learning how to run a crew, and how to behave in general. Torres, the one really interesting character at the beginning, was completely tamed by the second season.

I'll watch the new series for a while at least, to see if they make some of the stupidly obvious errors they've made in the other series, especially about how they treat women and how they portray minorities, and about whether or not people learn things and change as a result of experience.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: X-Ed
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM

Now if Harlan Ellison would be on board I'd have hope. When I say this is going to be the same ol' hat I hope I'm wrong. I love the idea they are going to go for the newness and wonder of the final frontier. The moment I saw the new ship design I figured tehy were not going to strech the creative envelope. Even the art department isn't coming up with new ideas.

I think Star Trek has made leaps and bounds on teh issue of race. Sometimes they take it too far. It is like the writers little badge of honor along with the over played social comentary. I am 90% sure Roddenberry's idea wasn't to make humanity one people and culture. That was John Lennon. It was about tolerance, cooperation and betterment. It was about cultural diverisity and preserving it. Hence teh Prime Directive.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:35 AM

Ugh, I just caught that bit about 'The Calling' doing the theme song... That's not true, is it? That's some of the most awful, soul-less, generic music around. I'd actually prefer that pompous classical-type crap from the last few series...

I'm so damned negative. Why don't I try being positive for a change?

I really liked DS9. There. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:02 AM

The thing that bothers me about the racial balance on the various Star Trek series is that, unlike 'Friends' or 'Frasier', they are set in what is supposed to be an egalitarian utopia. The abscence of 'minorities' on Star Trek is twice as lame as their abscence on 'Friends' for that reason. Plus, almost all of these white characters have English names and American accents.

Remember on the original series, when they had that stupid encounter with space-Lincoln, and he called Uhura a 'charming negress?' And they were confused, because that sort of thing just doesn't matter in the future... There's no racial prejudice there! Horseshit. If that didn't matter, Uhura would have been captain instead of taking notes for Capt. Kirk.

Anyway, the original series had Uhura and Sulu.

Next Generation, one black human, LaForge.

And then on Voyager, the ONE black guy is a vulcan, and the ONE Latin girl is half Klingon. So that leaves Chakotay (American Indian) and Kim (Korean, I guess) as the two 'minority' human charachters.

But DS9, on the other hand... Sisko is a black captain with a black son and a black girlfriend. Doctor Bashir is apparently an Arab. Keiko O'Brien is supposed to be Japanese, and their daughter is half. Whcih means that DS9 had more non-'white' characters than all the other series (excluding Enterprise) combined. And that one of the reasons it KICKS ASS. :)


And Little Hawk, what have I said that you could possibly disagree with? But, yes, I've been nibbling the sagebrush again. I know I have a problem, and I'm seeking help. :O

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:48 PM

anyone ever read Harlan Ellison's 2 wonderful books about TV.."The Glass Teat"?....if I remember rightly, he was hired to write for Star Trek, but gave up..(or was fired) after the first 3-4 when he saw what they were going to do....I could NEVER get into the series much...too damn many white-haired old men with high foreheads appearing like ghosts in space, making threats. Same themes and visuals, over & over & over

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:15 PM

Hell, Don, they could make a five year run just adapting the travails of mankind in E.E. Doc Smith's Lensmen series.

Then just for fun they could plagiarize the Foundation and Heinlein's Future History series.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:57 PM

I'm cautiously optimistic about "Enterprise." The producers have stated that in the recent manifestations of "Star Trek," space travel, encountering alien cultures, etc., etc., has become too much "all in a day's work." They want to get back to the "Sense of Wonder" that characterized some of the earlier science fiction (circa Thirties and Forties). Space ships are new and unreliable. They can malfunction and kill you -- or leave you stranded hundreds of billions of miles from anywhere. Space travel is new. Space travel is dangerous. Space travel is scary. We don't know what in the hell is out here. But we're gonna go take a look anyway.

One of my favorite SF novels is from the Forties: The Star Kings by Edmund Hamilton. It's pure space opera. The science is questionable, the writing is almost amateurish, and the plot is highly improbably -- but what a hell of a story! Twentieth century man transported thousands of years into the future and the things he finds himself in the midst of. Image: the morning sun (Canopus) shining on the crystal mountains of Throon. Alien invaders, Really Bad Guys who can be stopped only with a Doomsday weapon that the Good Guys are reluctant to use because it can destroy space itself. Breathtaking stuff.

If "Enterprise" can come up with one percent of the eye-popping, white-knuckle, page-turning Sense of Wonder that The Star Kings had, I'll be satisfied.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: X-Ed
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

Why are people soooo uptight about the demographics represnted on a show? Is that black guy I work with token, or did he earn and want to be there?

I say the show will suck just like DS9 and (for the most part) Voyager. Even TNG got into this liberal agenda thingie. Here they have (had)a chance to really improve and make the franchise grow and be renewed. Instead it is going to be old hat. The new Capt. just looks like a pussy. In fact if I saw him enter my star system I'd just have to fuck with him and take his lunch money.

Capt. Kirk Rules!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Gloredhel
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:18 PM

DS9 is awsome. Farscape's cool too. Now that I've got that out of the way, Star Trek isn't exactly the only American show with a lack of minorities. Many of the popular television shows have this problem. (Friends, Frasier, ER, just to name a few.) Of course, in California, where Star Trek is filmed, white people have constituted less than 50% of the population for about the past five years. Something to think about.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM

Clinton - I am in enthusiastic agreement with your rating of the different incarnations of Star Trek!

Lepus - We disagree???? Shocking! I thought we always agreed on things... Have you been nibbling on too much sagebrush again? :-)

Now how can we work Bill S**tner into this thread?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Cllr
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 05:57 PM

First interacial tv kiss, need I say more.

Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

I think the idea of a space ship with Jeffrey Archer at the helm is a bit of a hoot. John Redmond as the token Vulcan. Ann Widdecombe with a bit of make up would be a great Klingon. And Iain Duncan Smioth as an android...Oh yes, with the brain of Maggie Thatcher in a bottle somewhere, like in Lexx.

Americans probably won't have heard of most of these people. Most people in England probably aren't too sure of them by now I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 05:36 PM

OK, watch me whine a little more. The names of the Enterprise Crew are...

Captain Jonathan Archer (White guy)
Lt. Malcolm Reed (White guy)
Chief Engineer Charles 'Trip' Tucker, III (*gag*)
Ensign Hoshi Sato (Token Asian)
Ensign Travis Mayweather (Token black guy... Note that the two 'minorites' are both ensigns.)
Vulcan Sub-Commander T'Pol (Token vulcan. Just kidding.)
Dr. Phlox (Alien botanist? Well, I'll call him 'Token fat guy')

Yuck...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 05:22 PM

"To boldly stay, where no one has stayed..."

THAT AIN'T STAR TREK!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 04:27 PM

Apparently there was a proposal to call the new captain Jeffrey Archer.....

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 04:14 PM

Another DS9 fan, here. The first season or so half-blew your dead uncle Phil, but the rest was pretty damned good. Though they got a little too cuddly at the end... I liked it when people hated each other.

I'm sure the new one will be pretty lame, full of typical Star Trek garbage about time travel and full of "aliens" that look exactly like humans, except for the square knobs on thir foreheads. (And the Next Gen. episode that "explained" the origin of all these humanoids... Ooogh, don't even get me started. The WORST episode in ANY of the Star Trek series...)

And I dunno about Count Bakula... (reference to a Halloween feature in The Onion that I can't find to link to) It'd have been nice to see someone besides a typical WASP American captian. ("Johnathan Archer," yech) Are there no Croatians, Somalis, Turks, Mongols, Chileans, Malays, etc. flying starships? Even the FRENCH Captain Picard was English! Did the dark-skinned majority of our planet quit having kids some time around 2020? But, oh, that's right. They have the token Korean and the token black guy. That makes it all better. Grrr. (Another reason I liked DS9, BTW)

But, like, I'll watch it and stuff. ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:46 PM

I hadn't even heard of this one! I hated Voyager, but will give this one a shot. I'd like to see what Scott Bakula does with it.

For more info, please click here.

These days I love to watch Lexx and also Farscape on the SciFi channel. They are both frelling good! Anybody see the recent episodes of Lexx where Kai sang the series song (a sort of chantey) while in a bar in Newfoundland? He's got a great voice. And, also the couple of episodes which took place in Transylvania? Hilarious!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:38 PM

Myself I think DS9 was pretty good. I liked the multi-episode story-lines, rather than having every episode self-contained so that they could be run in pretty well any order.

I'd imagine that would in fact be the very aspect of it that other people would specifically pick out as something they don't like about it.

I suppose there are two ways in which people can differ in how they like anything - music, sport, politics, anything. One way is when they both basically have the same ideal of how it should be, but disagree as to how far this is approached, in a song or a tune or a game or whatever. You'd be disagreeing about how good something was, but you'd both have the same idea of what it would mean for it to get better.

The other is when there is a more basic disagreement about what the ideal would be, which might mean that getting better for one person means getting worse for the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 03:22 PM

I've given the Star trek franchise the last chance it's gonna get from me... the show's have been crap since Gene died... DS9 and Voyage-nerd especially...

DS9 was the show that Gene swore up and down he'd never allowed be made, and as soon as his face hit the carpet, it went into production... damn vultures!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM

The song you are referring to is "Wherever You Will Go" by The Calling, from their album Camino Palmero. They have been hailed as a sort of cross between Creed and Lifehouse...all three have the same knack for good songwriting and different melodies. I have had "Wherever You Will Go" in my head since I listened to the album last night. I haven't heard from my girlfriend yet today and am worried, and I find myself keep coming back to the song...

Subject: RE: BS: Star Trek 47: So Very Tired
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

I'm partial to "Trekkers". The spoof about the Red Shirts cracks me up.